Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Kakarat
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

The Indian Air-borne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System to be integrated on to the Brazilian EMB-145 Aircraft
The Centre for Air-Borne Systems (CABS), DRDO, Bangalore, is developing an Air-borne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The AEW&C Mission system comprises many sub-systems like Radar and communication links, that are being designed and developed by DRDO. This is a multi-laboratory programme of DRDO coordinated by CABS, Bangalore. The indigenous AEW&C Mission system will be optimally integrated onboard the Brazilian regional jet aircraft, EMB-145 as per IAF requirement.

The EMB-145 aircraft will be modified to carry DRDO’s Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU), mounted on top of the aircraft’s fuselage. The aircraft structure will be modified to carry other antennas and subsystems. The rest of the sub-systems including the Operator Work Stations will be distributed in a customized layout in the aircraft cabin.

The EMB-145 basic aircraft will be modified at the works of M/s Embraer, Brazil, to incorporate the necessary structural modifications to receive the Indian AAAU as well as other mission systems. Flight-testing of the modified EMB-145 with replicated dummy AAAU to simulate the actual aerodynamics and simulated loading of the cabin will be carried out by M/s Embraer to ensure airworthiness of the air vehicle.

The various sub-systems of the AEW&C Mission system will be integrated into the ‘modified green’ aircraft by DRDO and the full fledged EMB-145 based AEW&C will be flight tested for Mission system in India by DRDO along with IAF from 2012.

Three modified EMB-145 aircraft will be developed under this agreement, of which first one is expected to reach India in July 2011. The contract was jointly signed by Dr S Christopher, Director, CABS from DRDO side and Mr Luis Carlos Aguiar, Executive Vice President (Defence and Govt. Market) from M/s Embraer side in the presence of H.E. Marco Brandao, Ambassdor of Brazil to India and M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri. Addl. FA (P) & JS, CC R&D (AMS) & DS and CC R&D (SI) & DS along with other members from DRDO, and representatives from IAF and MEA were also present during the ceremony.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Nayak »

What is the Brazillian govt's POV if the yindoos end up fighting a war ?

AWACs operability will be of the highest order. Our Russian/Israeli brothers will come through.

Hopefully the Brazillian govt will not pontificate and stop vital supplies for the jets.

Also can we use COTS for the jets ? Maybe use the facilities of any desi airline as a front to keep the supplies coming. Paramount comes to mind.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Mihir.D »

Folks,

Is there a link anywhere which tells why we preferred the EMB-145 over a A-321 or and Embraer E Jet?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by PaulJI »

The ERJ-145 (formerly EMB-145) is cheaper to buy, & should be much cheaper to develop & test, as the same platform is used for the Erieye in Brazilian service (R-99A). The airframe modifications for the Swedish array should carry straight over, unless the Indian array is significantly larger or heavier. The A321 is larger than needed for the array, & only justifiable if you want considerably extended range, or to carry more operators. Since India will have the large (room for as many operators as you could ask) Il-76s, that performance is not needed, & would be a waste of money. The R-99A patrols the Amazon basin. It's not short of legs.

I've never heard of Brazil embargoing anyone who'd bought their equipment, & Brazil has sold weapons (EE-3, EE-9 & EE-11 AFVs, artillery rockets, military trainers & light attack aircraft, light transports, etc.) to half of Africa & Latin America & a few Middle Eastern countries. Brazilian weapons have been used in several wars without supplies being cut off. As long as you pay . . . :)

In any case, the ERJ-145 is in widespread commercial service, making parts easy to obtain. Very fortunate, since the Rolls-Royce engines are made by RRs American subsidiary, the former Allison, in Indianopolis. A version of it has been developed for the Global Hawk UAV.
Singha
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

comparing the 707 and IL76MD , the Illyushin is fairly small compared to E3. the sentry can surely
have a longer endurance and more mission payload imo.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by rakall »

Nayak wrote:What is the Brazillian govt's POV if the yindoos end up fighting a war ?

AWACs operability will be of the highest order. Our Russian/Israeli brothers will come through.

Hopefully the Brazillian govt will not pontificate and stop vital supplies for the jets.

Also can we use COTS for the jets ? Maybe use the facilities of any desi airline as a front to keep the supplies coming. Paramount comes to mind.
Brazil is selling us the ONLY the platform.. not the antenna/comm/SP systems - which CABS is developing.. What Embraer is selling us is a modified-civilian plane ( not like fighter aircraft requiring maintainence after every sortie).. . Our industry has enough experience with MRO of such platforms.. for 3-5 platforms -- we'll probabbly maintianing an inventory of essential replacables.. so dont see any issue there
PaulJI
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by PaulJI »

Singha wrote:comparing the 707 and IL76MD , the Illyushin is fairly small compared to E3. the sentry can surely
have a longer endurance and more mission payload imo.
E-3 maximum T/O weight 152 tons, according to Boeing -
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/ic/ ... specs.html

Il-76 max T/O weight 170 tons.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... specs.html
Note that there are later versions of the Il-76 which are larger & heavier.
rad
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by rad »

There is something that we should know, the EMB-145 is manufactured in China !!.
I have the strange feeling that the design and the test data and all the work we do
on the EMB-145 awacs willl be passed on to the China . Obviously the test pilots will be from the parent company as well ,as they are the designers. It wont take long for the data and the technology of to migrate to them . Their AESA radar mounted on the y-8 aircraft seems idential to the swedish awacs and after the Pakis get the awacs they will have a nice example to copy .
rad
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

There is something that we should know, the EMB-145 is manufactured in China !!.
That, IIRC, is for Chinese consumption only. Chicom has a huge internal, civilian need for these ACs - short haul.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Wickberg »

rad wrote: Their AESA radar mounted on the y-8 aircraft seems idential to the swedish awacs and after the Pakis get the awacs they will have a nice example to copy .
rad
And the Indian design does not look identical to Erieye? ;)
http://frontierindia.net/the-indian-air ... #more-2018

It seems like a popular design. But hey, why re-invent the wheel?
Last edited by Rahul M on 16 Sep 2008 14:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited link format. no need to to use the "url" code, it screws up the "automatically parse URLs" option.
Vivek K
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Is the AAU ready or does it have tech hurdles to cross? The article talks about 3 yr timelines for delivery. Is that of the modified EMB 145s or of the completed integrated AEW&C a/c?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

off the top of my head, I would say that would be the whole system.
Vivek K
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Will DRDO deliver in time? No flame bait or disrespect. The Sukhois were delayed, Gorky is delayed, Mig-29k is delayed, Phalcons are delayed, ADS is delayed, ATV is delayed so the AEW&C can also be delayed. However, timely deliveries or maybe before time deliveries will get some good PR and respect and +ve attention to DRDO.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Dhanush »

Vivek K wrote:Will DRDO deliver in time? No flame bait or disrespect. The Sukhois were delayed, Gorky is delayed, Mig-29k is delayed, Phalcons are delayed, ADS is delayed, ATV is delayed so the AEW&C can also be delayed. However, timely deliveries or maybe before time deliveries will get some good PR and respect and +ve attention to DRDO.
I would be satisfied even if DRDO delivers in 5 years time. Well delay happens everywhere. Even the most experienced companies have delays in their projects. But they deliver. That is what I expect from DRDO as well.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

edited by author.
Vivek K
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Rahul,

Did you read my post? Foreign vendors/companies have delayed all major big rock projects. I would love to see DRDO finish one on/before time and get kudos for it.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

oops, sorry vivek, misread your post.
will edit mine.
Don
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Don »

rad wrote:There is something that we should know, the EMB-145 is manufactured in China !!.
I have the strange feeling that the design and the test data and all the work we do
on the EMB-145 awacs willl be passed on to the China . Obviously the test pilots will be from the parent company as well ,as they are the designers. It wont take long for the data and the technology of to migrate to them . Their AESA radar mounted on the y-8 aircraft seems idential to the swedish awacs and after the Pakis get the awacs they will have a nice example to copy .
rad
I think you are talking about these ones on the left. The one the pakis are getting are the one on the right with conventional rotating rotor dome.
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/7493/p ... 994sg5.jpg
Image
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Pakistan AWACS:

Image

China is building in China EMB-145 (or whatever) that are for internal civilian consumption - ToT.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Wickberg »

NRao wrote:Pakistan AWACS:

Image

China is building in China EMB-145 (or whatever) that are for internal civilian consumption - ToT.
Except Pakistan will use the SAAB 2000 as a platform. Only Sweden are using the SAAB340 (they are also changing to the 2000)

Image
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

wasnt it the saab2000 that has a phenomenal climb rate to operating altitude? even faster
than most civilian jets its was alleged.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Wickberg »

Singha wrote:wasnt it the saab2000 that has a phenomenal climb rate to operating altitude? even faster
than most civilian jets its was alleged.
I don´t know about faster. But it is the ultimate turboprop in that class, it was developed to have "jet performance with turboprop economy". Unfortunately they stopped the production when customers rather bought regional jets from Embraer, this was at a time when fuel costs were very low. If they had continued the production I think it would sell rather good today and in the future considering the fuel costs.
Who knows, the way the world is looking today it might be a good idea to open the production lines again.

The 2000 version Pakistan and Sweden are getting are modified versions with an endurance of +9 hours (about one hour better then the EMB-145)
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by rad »

The Pak awacs looks like a tempting target for a KS-172, or a S-400 sam with a range of 400 km, The Pak AWACS will not have strategic depth to operate and will be vulnerable to the above systems. With 3 S-400
systems we can take out the awacs if thy dare fly in wartime as the S-400 is capable of taking out targets from low level to levels beyond any awacs can fly. Of course it wont be a piece of cake as the awacs is deffinately going to be protected with ECM and ESM etc and the AESA radar could be used to jam incomming missile like a huge jammer, There was also talks of Pak getting a passive homing longrange sam from china.
rad
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by chiragAS »

guys we should stick to old BR names. using complete names of our neigbhours, just brings unwanted hits to the site.
:D
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

we have to ensure in the design stage itself that our chappati team must integrate home grown brahmos and novators on the aewcs itshelf... we need to see the belly that has the rails to support these weapons.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by p_saggu »

If you notice, there is a nice groove below the belly of the A-50I seems perfectly suited to have a bomb bay door...
The chapati team distributing laddoos :rotfl: good one SaiK
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

New Phalcon squadron, etc - Shiv Aroor
The three Phalcon AWACS aircraft that begin deliveries from Israel in two months, will be a part of a newly raised unit, 50 Sqn, at Agra. A name for the unit is currently being decided upon. This and a whole lot more was revealed to Headlines Today in an interview today with Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Major. The full interview, which includes a whole lot more, will be broadcast on Thursday (July 17) primetime on Headlines Today. Will post the time here tomorrow morning.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

The Indian AEW&C project detailed
...The aircraft is estimated to have an endurance of 5 hours from take off to landing...
...Primary radar is designed to have a range of 200 kms for 2 sqm target as per the OR by the IAF...
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by prashanth »

Kakarat wrote:The Indian AEW&C project detailed
...The aircraft is estimated to have an endurance of 5 hours from take off to landing...
...Primary radar is designed to have a range of 200 kms for 2 sqm target as per the OR by the IAF...

Quite adequate to counter PAF and PLAAF fighters, i hope. Which aircrafts in PAF and Plaaf have smallest RCS? What about PAF f-16s?

Friends, is it possible to have an AEW&C guide an air to air missile blindly fired from a fighter?
If this is possible fewer fighters can be used to attack/intercept enemy a/cs, while keeping the AEW&C out of the enemy BVR range. :)
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Nayak »

Kakarat wrote:New Phalcon squadron, etc - Shiv Aroor
The three Phalcon AWACS aircraft that begin deliveries from Israel in two months, will be a part of a newly raised unit, 50 Sqn, at Agra. A name for the unit is currently being decided upon. This and a whole lot more was revealed to Headlines Today in an interview today with Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Major. The full interview, which includes a whole lot more, will be broadcast on Thursday (July 17) primetime on Headlines Today. Will post the time here tomorrow morning.

I have the latest issue of AFM. It says there will be further delays till first quarter of 2009. Seems that some third party vendors are playing truant in providing necessary parts for integration.

Any guesses who ?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

uzbekistan ? :P
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by andy B »

I sent the Awacs article to nitesh and he has kindly posted it on rapidshare and provided the link in the intl. aerospace thread for BRfites to read.

http://www.ato.ru/eng/cis/archive/5-200 ... 51577de10a


In terms of delays from what I have been reading there are a number of possible reasons:

A). Apparently rayethon is manufacturing the stationery radome and there were delays from this supplier, then again there have been reports that they will be produced by Vega in Russia and integrated by Beriev either way there are delays
B) The aircraft themselves are made in Tahskent-Uzbekistan where the parts are supplied by Russia mostly but the assembly line itself is in Tashkent. It is the only operational IL76/78 manufacturing/assembly facitliy. Again there have been delays here
C). Some time ago there were reports floating that the Israelis were not being able to manufacture the AESA Gain chips on a large scale as in enough numbers in a short time.

Beyond this I was searching for images and info on the K-J-2000 and our phalcon, call me paranoid but they seem to be a bit too similar in appearance. Moreover they both have an AESA radar and guess what the satellite comm dome on the top of the IL76 is exactly in terms of position, relative size, and appearance.
I keep wondering if the chicomms actually reverse enginnered/stole the phalcon from our Israeli friends or they sold it under the table.

I would love some more light on this matter from the gurus.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

the AFM article you posted says chicoms have one raw A50 (russian version) with the
default Shmel rotating radar and 3 more IL76 (converted civilian airframes) with their
new aesa fixed panel radar. help from Ukraine and Russia has surely been obtained on
radar front - recall the S300 has tombstone and S400 another successor which is
said to be quite formidable. they also have good exp in naval pesa.

I expect the total system C3I capability will be considerably less than a more 'mature'
player like Israel who can also pull in EU/US techs on a as-needed basis...but it will
be quite good.

so they keep the crown jewels to themselves and sell a downrated model to pakis
because pakis will look to raise cash by selling one sample to the US.

soon PRC will get one sample of Ereyie from pakistan.

they make money from both ends...like a true prostitute.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by sandesh »

These are pics from yesterday. It was posted by the photographer in one of the forums i frequent. One can see srl no. KW-3551 painted on the fin.
Image
Image
Image
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by sombhat »

Wow :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I just cant have enough of this beauty. Thanks mate, you made my day.

Added later: Are these regular test flights or is it departing for Agra?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by uddu »

Kakarat wrote:New Phalcon squadron, etc - Shiv Aroor
The three Phalcon AWACS aircraft that begin deliveries from Israel in two months, will be a part of a newly raised unit, 50 Sqn, at Agra. A name for the unit is currently being decided upon.
A suitable name can be third eye or Trinetra squadron. It has got excellent meaning.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Nitesh »

DDM at it's best :)
New Delhi, Sept 14: Finding fault with the existing acquisition system for the armed forces, a former senior Army officer has said these drawbacks have led India to pay much more for purchases as in the deal to acquire three AWACS aircraft from Israel in 2004.

"India has failed to negotiate full-proof agreements with clearly defined provisions...In almost all contracts, imprecise and flawed provisions led to multiple interpretations during the implementation stage," Maj Gen (Retd) Mrinal Suman, who was associated with procurement procedures and offsets while in service, said.

He quoted reports in the Israeli press as saying that "India paid more than double the amount for the purchase of three AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) aircraft from Israel in March 2004."

These aircraft, he said, were earlier being sold to China for USD 358 million but the deal had to be aborted under US pressure.

"Subsequently, India agreed to buy them for USD 1.1 billion, a whopping USD 742 million more than the price agreed to by the Chinese," Suman said in an article in the latest issue of 'Indian Defence Review'.

Noting that there were "numerous" instances where India paid "exorbitant amounts" for defence equipment, he referred to the coffin scam and said "inability to negotiate contracts astutely has been the biggest weakness of the entire defence procurement regime."

Invariably, it was India that suffered "as the vendors exploit ambiguities in the contract language, especially with respect to delivery schedules, warranties, after sales support and penalties for default," Suman, who retired as Technical Manager (Land Systems) in the Defence Ministry's acquisition wing, said.
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=469007&sid=NAT
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Drevin »

Those pictures are awesome high resolution dude. Phalcons will be the cynosure of all eyes once they enter the IAF for sure.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by sum »

Unable to see the image...
Even finding the URL from page source and pasting in address bar not helping!!!!! :x
The site is in Hebrew to navigate to Il-76 section from home page...

Any remedies??
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by sandesh »

sum wrote:Unable to see the image...
Even finding the URL from page source and pasting in address bar not helping!!!!! :x
The site is in Hebrew to navigate to Il-76 section from home page...

Any remedies??
The pics have been removed from the server. I have sent the guy a PM about it to see if those pics can be obtained or uploaded on another server.
Or else, if someone saved those pics on their HD,they can upload those pics for everyone to see. I was stupid for not having saved those excellent pics on my HD.
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