Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Anujan
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Pakistan's textile industry is funding Indian AWACS :wink:
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Boycott Baki textiles to defeat Yindu Baniya!!
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Thats correct. Even companies like Boeing are segregated between defense and civilian divisions, with completely separate business units, due to security concerns, laws, regulations such as ITAR certification.

Civilian capability comes out of military capability.
Military industrial capacity comes out of civilian capability.. Chinese capabilities in their mil ind complex is very closely linked to civilian
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

If you look at the history of Silicon Valley, it came about because of the demand of integrated circuit needed for the US missile program of the late 1950s through the 1980s. This happened because of government contracts working with academia and industry. Civilian applications followed later.

Another example is Toyota Industries which was primarily making looms and associated manufacturing equipment similar to LMW today. In the late 1930s started making cars in small quantities, but it wasn’t until the demand for vehicles needed by the US military in the Korean War and east Asia in the 1950s for jeeps and trucks that pushed them into becoming a large scale auto manufacturer of today.

The point is, domestic industry like LMW and millions of others, won’t get a chance to prosper until supported by contracts from the Ministry of Defence. It creates great wealth and employment. This is why priority has to be given to domestic manufacturing and Make In India before foreign acquisitions of weapon systems regardless of country.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Anujan wrote:Pakistan's textile industry is funding Indian AWACS :wink:
Why is that surprising? Don’t you think Indians are not supporting the Chinese military industrial capability buying Chinese consumer electronics and other manufactured goods?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

kit wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Thats correct. Even companies like Boeing are segregated between defense and civilian divisions, with completely separate business units, due to security concerns, laws, regulations such as ITAR certification.

Civilian capability comes out of military capability.
Military industrial capacity comes out of civilian capability.. Chinese capabilities in their mil ind complex is very closely linked to civilian
This is debatable and one can sit all day finding examples that support or oppose that assertion. There is no real clear answer or path. There are nations who have next to nill commercial competitiveness but have an adequate MIC or one that punches way above their economic weight. On the opposite end, you have economic heavyweights that don't have a highly competitive defense production capability. So it is really about the coming together of a bunch of factors and how policymakers have allowed their capabilities to develop over time.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Given the size of the Indian economy and its GDP, industrial production, existing military and aerospace production capability and higher education base - the domestic civilian manufacturing can be scaled up in less than 10 years by the award of defence contracts and sub contracts. India is primed, but does the political will exist?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by ldev »

For military innovations to percolate to the civilian sector there has to be an efficient structure/pipeline otherwise you run the risk of gigantic mis-allocation of resources and insolvency as happened with the FSU which did not have a civilian market to speak off. China has learnt from that mistake and has a giant civilian market which can absorb costs. The US cannot be compared to others because of the US dollar status and can hence afford to have 100% military contractors. For India I would opine that the pipeline is not very efficient at the moment and the civilian market is not as large as China and hence military R&D should be viewed as a standalone expense. Furthermore, not all military innovations have civilian spin-offs.

Since this is the AEWC thread, it's interesting to compare the costs of the Phalcon AWACS with the DRDO project for six A319s and then compare that with the Royal Air Force acquisition of 5 Boeing E-7 Edgetails. The latest 2 Phalcon on order are priced at ~$ 2 billion with the funds being split halfway down for IAI and the Russians i.e. $ 500 million for each airframe and modifications and $500 million for each radar for a total of $ 1 billion per AWACS. The DRDO project cost is estimated at Rs 11,000 crores ( ~$1.5 billion) of which only $ 150 million is for the airframes since they are second hand with Air-India and it will be a book transfer on GOI's account. So each completed unit will be $ 250 million, IF, it comes in at it's projected cost. The Royal Air Force will get 5 Edgetails for $ 1.98 billion so the cost per unit is $ 400 million. The first 2 units will use second hand airframes and the last 3 will be new build from the Boeing assembly line. In terms of time to delivery, no surprise that Boeing will be the fastest to deliver...order placed in late 2020 and first delivery in 2023...~ 3 years. India's first Phalcon order took 5 years from order placement to delivery of the first unit i.e. 2004 to 2009. It will be interesting to see when DRDO/LRDE can complete the first A319 and hand it over to the IAF.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

When will the last two phalcon arrive, didn't the frames reach Israel donkey years back?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

ldev wrote: Since this is the AEWC thread, it's interesting to compare the costs of the Phalcon AWACS with the DRDO project for six A319s and then compare that with the Royal Air Force acquisition of 5 Boeing E-7 Edgetails. The latest 2 Phalcon on order are priced at ~$ 2 billion with the funds being split halfway down for IAI and the Russians i.e. $ 500 million for each airframe and modifications and $500 million for each radar for a total of $ 1 billion per AWACS. The DRDO project cost is estimated at Rs 11,000 crores ( ~$1.5 billion) of which only $ 150 million is for the airframes since they are second hand with Air-India and it will be a book transfer on GOI's account. So each completed unit will be $ 250 million, IF, it comes in at it's projected cost. The Royal Air Force will get 5 Edgetails for $ 1.98 billion so the cost per unit is $ 400 million. The first 2 units will use second hand airframes and the last 3 will be new build from the Boeing assembly line. In terms of time to delivery, no surprise that Boeing will be the fastest to deliver...order placed in late 2020 and first delivery in 2023...~ 3 years. India's first Phalcon order took 5 years from order placement to delivery of the first unit i.e. 2004 to 2009. It will be interesting to see when DRDO/LRDE can complete the first A319 and hand it over to the IAF.
I think you've got an incomplete cost estimate. Instead of comparing 5 Boeing-Northrop E-7 Wedgetail, you have to compare the cost of the DRDO A319 AEW&CS with the original E-3 Boeing 707 AWACS that was started with a USAF contract in 1967 to first delivery in 1977. What Westinghouse (Northrop) and Raytheon learned at the time was very valuable which percolated to other surveillance radar programs with the USN and USAF. It built up a huge knowledge and manufacturing base. Now, DRDO has experience with the Phalcon (EL/W-2090) and NETRA, similar to what the US had before 1967 with other airborne surveillance radar systems. Even if the A319 comes in at $500 million/each by 2030, it is well worth the price paid to have the experienced radar development, communication system development and maintenance experience. This would include scientists, engineers and highly skilled electronics technicians who are better than having a bunch theoretical physicists solving math puzzles. What it does is improve operational availability and reduced logistics costs for weapon system lifecycle.

Bottom line: Life cycle costs will be much lower with the DRDO A319 platform and will lead to better battlefield management.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by ldev »

Mort Walker wrote:
I think you've got an incomplete cost estimate. Instead of comparing 5 Boeing-Northrop E-7 Wedgetail, you have to compare the cost of the DRDO A319 AEW&CS with the original E-3 Boeing 707 AWACS that was started with a USAF contract in 1967 to first delivery in 1977. What Westinghouse (Northrop) and Raytheon learned at the time was very valuable which percolated to other surveillance radar programs with the USN and USAF. It built up a huge knowledge and manufacturing base. Now, DRDO has experience with the Phalcon (EL/W-2090) and NETRA, similar to what the US had before 1967 with other airborne surveillance radar systems. Even if the A319 comes in at $500 million/each by 2030, it is well worth the price paid to have the experienced radar development, communication system development and maintenance experience. This would include scientists, engineers and highly skilled electronics technicians who are better than having a bunch theoretical physicists solving math puzzles. What it does is improve operational availability and reduced logistics costs for weapon system lifecycle.

Bottom line: Life cycle costs will be much lower with the DRDO A319 platform and will lead to better battlefield management.
Undoubtedly better to build a domestic knowledge base of experienced scientists, engineers and technicians plus the benefit of life cycle costs from a domestic industry standpoint and for future development or other radars. However from the IAF/MOD standpoint whose primary responsibility is the defence of the country at all times, including the present not just the future when projects under development will be completed and in service, i would imagine that the Phalcons were ordered for $ 1 billion each to cover potential delays in the DRDO project.

Also as far as I have read, the modified Netra or whatever name the radar will be known as when mounted on the A-319/320 has a 240 degree coverage (just like the Embraer) vs 360 for the Phalcons. Will be happy to be corrected if it's a 360 degree coverage for the A-319/320. Although I was reading somewhere that the A-319 project will build on the existing Netra radar and have some additional features.....
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^Before I get in trouble like the last time. All I will say is that imports are not a solution when existing capability is there and can build on it. India can never be a major world power importing weapon systems in the name of operational expediency. At some point you've got to draw the line or this argument can be used forever.

If the A319 AEW&CS is limited to 240 degree coverage, but has better radar performance in terms of better range, low velocity detection, ground clutter suppression, and higher receiver sensitivity, then it is a compromise many radar designers will accept. Having the A319 platform may make it more reliable, available and sustainable than the IL-76 platform. Which parts are coming from Ukraine and the Russians will be reluctant to provide parts for given their situation.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by KSingh »

All 5 ex AI (now DRDO) A321 parked up at Hindon AFB (my guess is they are waiting in NCR as they’ll be stripped down/re-painted at IGI (IMO)

https://twitter.com/bhatanvesh/status/1 ... oKjznIa26g


Baby steps (NETRA 2 is going tonne a HUGE undertaking and I don’t believe they’ve even started conversion work for a prototype, aren’t they seeking a private player to do the conversion work?) but still enthralling to see they’ve taken advantage of the once in a lifetime opportunity to pick up some used airframes


The enormity of this task cannot be overstated. No one outside of the US, Russia, China and Sweden has attempted such a project in recent times and whilst NETRA 1 much of the work was done for DRDO (EMB-145s came brand new directly from OEM in a AWACS configuration as the OEM themselves offer a similar AEW product of their own) in this instance they will be doing all the conversion work in india and the OEM has NO such experience/product on the airframe (will be fascinating to understand how DRDO and Airbus will interact on this effort, surely they’ll have to work closely with them to validate all their designs and even for flight testing/validation just to avoid re-designing the wheel and keeping within OEM’s certified regimes).
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Haridas »

ldev wrote: ..... .. Since this is the AEWC thread, it's interesting to compare the costs of the Phalcon AWACS with the DRDO project for six A319s and then compare that with the Royal Air Force acquisition of 5 Boeing E-7 Edgetails. The latest 2 Phalcon on order are priced at ~$ 2 billion with the funds being split halfway down for IAI and the Russians i.e. $ 500 million for each airframe and modifications and $500 million for each radar for a total of $ 1 billion per AWACS. The DRDO project cost is estimated at Rs 11,000 crores ( ~$1.5 billion) of which only $ 150 million is for the airframes since they are second hand with Air-India and it will be a book transfer on GOI's account. So each completed unit will be $ 250 million, IF, it comes in at it's projected cost. The Royal Air Force will get 5 Edgetails for $ 1.98 billion so the cost per unit is $ 400 million. The first 2 units will use second hand airframes and the last 3 will be new build from the Boeing assembly line.... .
Airbus A320 class airframe utilization and mil life:
. Airframe life : 60,000 Hrs (180,000 Hrs with Extended Service Goal **)
. Military and DRDO typical usage <2 Hrs/day
. Civil airlines ≥ 11 Hrs /day
. Plane with 15 years airline life left will last > 55 years in Military use (Spares will become issue after 15 years)

Airframe cost: 12 year used A320 costs ~ $26-42 Million while a new one costs $101 million.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by chandrabhan »

ldev wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:

Also as far as I have read, the modified Netra or whatever name the radar will be known as when mounted on the A-319/320 has a 240 degree coverage (just like the Embraer) vs 360 for the Phalcons. Will be happy to be corrected if it's a 360 degree coverage for the A-319/320. Although I was reading somewhere that the A-319 project will build on the existing Netra radar and have some additional features.....
New Netra on A320, despite being a bar will have 360degree coverage. There was a report on this on Lifefist as well as mentioned in a press conference.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by SBajwa »

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... ucSfg1w1AA ---> DRDO's CABS (The Centre for Airborne Systems) to procure TR Modules along with amplifier for Secondary Surveillance Radar for AWACS.

Image
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... hQN9WmSNfA ---> Report: IAF's Phalcon AWACS can control (battle management) six airborne interceptions and manage three strike missions at same time, whereas Netra AEW&Cs can control three interceptions and manage one tactical strike mission at the same time.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Did the new order of Phalcons actually take place? Hasn't it taken for ever for those birds to show up? Maybe the order was never placed.

It makes sense to continue with the A3XX line for all future AEW needs. The increased uptime and crew comfort and ease of maintenance is worth its weight in gold. No point in gold plating il-76 birds if they suck getting airborne.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Haridas »

Cybaru wrote:Did the new order of Phalcons actually take place? Hasn't it taken for ever for those birds to show up? Maybe the order was never placed.

It makes sense to continue with the A3XX line for all future AEW needs. The increased uptime and crew comfort and ease of maintenance is worth its weight in gold. No point in gold plating il-76 birds if they suck getting airborne.
Repeat order was not possible since IL76 was long out of production in Ukraine.

$1 billion idea couple of years ago was a trial baloon IMHO. Superceded by 6x indigineous AWACS based on ex-AirIndia A320.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Thank the gods for small mercies!!

When is the first flight of this beast?

I hope they order a few c295 based assets as well.. flight hour might be whole lot cheaper for peace time surveillance.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Haridas »

Cybaru wrote:I hope they order a few c295 based assets as well.. flight hour might be whole lot cheaper for peace time surveillance.
That is the declared intention (by the vendor sponsored info-advertisements by YouTUBE channels).

Need to cross the bridge when it comes, and we have a plant ready to ship C295 (too much on the table as of now and resources spread thin)
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Is there a provision of adding inflight refueling capacity to the aircrafts?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Pratyush wrote:Is there a provision of adding inflight refueling capacity to the aircrafts?
Most likely no. Will be faster and cheaper to refuel on ground..
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Defencematrix1/stat ... RA9IKDyGMQ ---> DRDO-CABS is working on AEW&C MK-II (also known as Netra Mk-II) based on ex-Air India A-321 airframes. Six units have been sanctioned (the airframes are stationed at Hindon AFS). The larger airframe allows for greater space for more workstations, equipment racks, etc.

Image

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/16 ... RA9IKDyGMQ --->

Image
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/Defencematrix1/stat ... RA9IKDyGMQ ---> DRDO-CABS is working on AEW&C MK-II (also known as Netra Mk-II) based on ex-Air India A-321 airframes. Six units have been sanctioned (the airframes are stationed at Hindon AFS). The larger airframe allows for greater space for more workstations, equipment racks, etc.
They’ve been sat there for about a year, the project doesn’t really seem to have gone anywhere since they got DAC clearance. Seems all inductions are a very long time away (10 years) in the interim even the PAF as more AWACS.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:They’ve been sat there for about a year, the project doesn’t really seem to have gone anywhere since they got DAC clearance. Seems all inductions are a very long time away (10 years) in the interim even the PAF as more AWACS.
Please do not re-quote images when replying. I have edited your post. Please see above.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by prashantsharma »

In GE historical imagery from about 1-2 years ago, at Guwahati .. does anyone have a clue as to what this ?

https://mobile.twitter.com/surplusk/sta ... 2342641665 ---> where two prototypes built? a recent google earth image of Guwahati airport has this. Or is this a dummy?

Image
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

IIRC, only one ASP avro was made. The crash of which killed the program.

I don't know what that is. It appears to be on some taxiway. That is strange position to put a dummy.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:That is strange position to put a dummy.
@Pratyush, it is not a dummy :)
prashantsharma wrote:In GE historical imagery from about 1-2 years ago, at Guwahati .. does anyone have a clue as to what this ?
@prashantsharma, this is what you saw. This twitter account is from Sameer Joshi, a now retired IAF fighter pilot, that flew the Mirage 2000 while in service. So you can be sure it is not some desi fan boy, who creates photoshopped pictures for time pass. I do not know the date of the photo.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... -oF8Rx0kwQ ---> Operating with a new radome.

Image

After seeing the above photo, this picture below is of the original HS 748 AEW&C that crashed...compare the radomes :)

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... -oF8Rx0kwQ --->

Image
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by prashantsharma »

Thanks Rakesh.
In the Vayu Aero twitter post, there appear to be two different aircraft. One with radome on single pylon, and another with radome on two pylons.
The SameerJoe pic appears to be taken in Guwahati at the same spot (an unused section of taxi track) as the GE image, and also has radome on two pylons. This avro also has it entire rudder missing.
I am wondering if infact two prototypes had been in use and the second one happened to be in Guwahati when the crash took place and project went into cold storage?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

prashantsharma wrote:Thanks Rakesh.
In the Vayu Aero twitter post, there appear to be two different aircraft. One with radome on single pylon, and another with radome on two pylons.
The SameerJoe pic appears to be taken in Guwahati at the same spot (an unused section of taxi track) as the GE image, and also has radome on two pylons. This avro also has it entire rudder missing.
I am wondering if infact two prototypes had been in use and the second one happened to be in Guwahati when the crash took place and project went into cold storage?
My apologies for the late reply to your post. You are correct, it does look like the aircraft is in the same spot.

It looks like a new radome was added on this particular aircraft, post the 1999 crash of the other Avro.

Good eye for noticing that the rudder is missing. Very good catch!
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter Thread...click on link below...

https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... 20768?s=20 ---> The IAF AEW&C Sub Systems of NETRA are testament to Make in India.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1 ... 97794?s=20 ----> DRDO CABS AEW&C Mk-II based on A-321. Part 1/2.

Image

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1 ... 97794?s=20 ----> DRDO CABS AEW&C Mk-II based on A-321. Part 2/2.

https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1 ... 09984?s=20 ---> Some details on the primary radar. For more info on the AEW&C Mk-II & Netra programs, watch: https://youtu.be/1430qLBhvtE

Image

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Avid »

https://twitter.com/DefenceChamber/stat ... 3ylBw&s=19 ---> These are the six A321s transferred by @airindiain to @DRDO_India for the Netra Mk.II project! DRDO CABS will convert these airframes into the Netra Mk.II AEW&EC systems for the @IAF_MCC. These were parked at Hindon AFS but the latest satellite imagery shows these were moved to BLR.

Image

Image
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Is it the same balance beam as the one on the Netra Mk1? Given the extra real estate and power, one would assume that the BB would be extended a bit more.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

x-posting from the AI thread.
Prasad wrote:Those aren't the numbers I heard.
Please do watch this -

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by ernest »

Thank you, Prasad for sharing this. Your contributions stand out from rest of the defence reporting ecosystem.

Is there any update on the larger chapati AWACS (I) that was under development. With the capex being spent on systems that are ready, is it safe to say that its development flight is not going to happen in the next 5 years? My apologies if I missed reporting on this.
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