Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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vivek_ahuja
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Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Apr 2008 11:56

Philip wrote:We need a layered airborne defence comprising of Phalcon AWACS,medium range AWACS (Embraers or equivalent),aerostats and perhaps smaller turboprop AEW aircraft like the Hawkeye,which can also operate from medium sized carriers.Our locally built Dorniers also have an EW capability in service with the In,but we need larger numbers of largersized aircraft for the job.We have to sanitise both our island territories and the Indian landmass.


A logistical nightmare in an Air Fleet already looking like a circus...

One thing though: we still do not have decent (in fact, none) dedicated stand off ELINT aircrafts built for the purpose to support the Phalcon fleets. The last one of the aircrafts was written off months ago in a hanger collapse. Mig-21s armed with Jamming pods won't cut it in a highly advanced EW environment.

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Postby Philip » 22 Apr 2008 12:29

Vivek,even the US operates several types of AWACS/EW aircraft.There are secret specialised ELINT versions of Orion around spotted by AWST some time ago.We could standardise on the Phalcon,Embraer and a medium sized turboprop.Aerostats have the advantage of not consuming any fuel and are very cost-effective as the Israelis have shown.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Apr 2008 12:41

Philip,

Since the IAF is going along the same lines as you have said, I guess your statement is bound to come out true.

But even so, my point was whether the IAF can ably support such a mixture given its budget which is far lesser than what the USAF operates on. Even there, the main Air force AWACS fleet is centered around the E-3s and the others are available for special requirements but are still based around the same airframes from a single indegenous source. The Hawkeyes and such are Naval aircrafts in a manner similar to the Ka-31 fleet of the IN.

The chinese are doing the same with their Y-8 copies. The idea is the same. Since only the mission equipment changes around the standard airframe, the logistical issues are much lesser. To make matters better, all such sources are local.

The IAF does not have any of these options with it since the Phalcon is based on the IL-76, the DRDO option on the Embraer, the aerostat being a completely other israeli source and if Hawkeyes are included as you suggest, then the US is involved too. At the same time all four airframes are different, so each will have its own logistical chain and hence require parallel such chains in wartime which will be strenous on the IAF at best. At worse, it can cause a complete collapse of the system much like the grounded SU-30MKI fleet of today.

This is therefore not the same situation as the USAF and the IAF will be hard pressed to maintain this fleet at full status at any given time.

-Vivek

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Postby Brando » 22 Apr 2008 12:47

I dont understand why we are going for this Embrazer crap when we should be ordering AWACs by the dozen. That too AESA AWACS like Phalcon etc.

The Australians also have the WedgeTail that is again impressive. Something that we should be looking into acquiring.

We dont have a robust Air surveillance grid, we are outnumber by the Chinese, our planes still suffer spares shortages and unreliability, depleting squadron and pilot strengths and add to this we are almost completely dependent on foreign supply of aircrafts.

If I were the Chief of Air Staff I wouldn't have the balls to claim any situation of readiness. Especially with regard to ELINT, the IAF doesnt have much of a scene in that area at all. However if they did choose to aquire the F-18F in their MRCA tender they could possible sneek in the F-18G's as well to fulfill the ELINT role giving the IAF a formidable ELINT capability.

Since numerical superiority is out of sight with resepect to China, force multipliers like AWACS and ELINT aircraft are the IAF's best bet.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Apr 2008 12:54

Brando wrote:I dont understand why we are going for this Embrazer crap when we should be ordering AWACs by the dozen. That too AESA AWACS like Phalcon etc.


Um, you do realize that the "Embraer Crap" as you call it is the only one within the bunch of choices that is Indian, don't you?

The Australians also have the WedgeTail that is again impressive. Something that we should be looking into acquiring.


Why do you want to copy something that might one day be used against you? The point here is that if you do go ahead and copy what the others in the region are buying, and so both are from the same source, in wartime, the sole supplier might have to choose which side to support. And you don't want to come out second best then.

Besides, we have the options to choose from that are just as good. Including what you refer to as the "Embraer Crap"

Since numerical superiority is out of sight with resepect to China, force multipliers like AWACS and ELINT aircraft are the IAF's best bet.


The chinese think so too. And they hold the quantitative advantage even in that crucial field, but not the qualittative one. How long the latter will last is anybody's guess.

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Postby PaulJI » 22 Apr 2008 13:40

Philip wrote:Vivek,even the US operates several types of AWACS/EW aircraft.There are secret specialised ELINT versions of Orion around spotted by AWST some time ago.We could standardise on the Phalcon,Embraer and a medium sized turboprop.Aerostats have the advantage of not consuming any fuel and are very cost-effective as the Israelis have shown.


The USA spends about 25 times as much as India on its military. What the USA does is unlikely to be appropriate for a more financially constrained force.

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Postby Brando » 22 Apr 2008 13:43

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Brando wrote:I dont understand why we are going for this Embrazer crap when we should be ordering AWACs by the dozen. That too AESA AWACS like Phalcon etc.


Um, you do realize that the "Embraer Crap" as you call it is the only one within the bunch of choices that is Indian, don't you?

I do understand that this will be another DRDO "project" which like all others will promise the moon, the sun and even the stars. The final products as everybody is aware are not on par with what our neighbours will get off the shelf as it is. IF this were a science fair where effort counted maybe we would come out on top but there is no glory or gain in reinventing the wheel.

vivek_ahuja wrote:
The Australians also have the WedgeTail that is again impressive. Something that we should be looking into acquiring.


Why do you want to copy something that might one day be used against you? The point here is that if you do go ahead and copy what the others in the region are buying, and so both are from the same source, in wartime, the sole supplier might have to choose which side to support. And you don't want to come out second best then.

The advantage there would be that the Australians themselves dont hold the keys to that closet. The Americans do and if we are to sniff the wind as it were the Americans wouldnt be too willing to hand that out to the Chinese anytime soon nor would they side with them over us as the Chinese pose a greater threat than we do to their hegemony. And the old maxim always holds; the enemy of an enemy is a friend.
vivek_ahuja wrote:The chinese think so too. And they hold the quantitative advantage even in that crucial field, but not the qualittative one. How long the latter will last is anybody's guess.


The Chinese will not be able to break out of that cycle of technological backwardness without the help of the West, especially America. And unless America is keen on a quick death to its hegemony they will be in no hurry to advance China's technological gains. The Russians for all their bang-for-buck are decades behind anything as good as the Americans or the Israelis. Now unless Israel would like to jeopardize their business with India and vex America at the same time they are not likely to get in bed with the Chinese readily. As things stand the ability and opportunity to take the qualitative leap favors the IAF, apathy notwithstanding.

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Postby PaulJI » 22 Apr 2008 13:51

Brando wrote:I dont understand why we are going for this Embrazer crap when we should be ordering AWACs by the dozen. That too AESA AWACS like Phalcon etc. ....


"By the dozen" is certainly unaffordable. "This Embrazer (sic) crap" is a very good aircraft, & if you want large numbers, which is a good idea, a good choice, as it's far cheaper both to buy and operate than an Il-76. And the radar intended for mounting on it is AESA.

A mix of large, high-capacity aircraft which are too expensive to buy in large quantities, and a smaller, cheaper aircraft to make up the numbers makes sense for a large but relatively poor country. The smaller aircraft is to fill gaps, for forward deployment, & local coverage where you don't want to risk the higher-value aircraft, & for the lower-priority tasks.

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Postby Drevin » 22 Apr 2008 13:54

Philip wrote:P-8 Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA)
Specifications
Primary Function Anti-Submarine and Anti-surface Warfare
Contractor Boeing Company
Propulsion Two high-bypass turbofan engines (CFM-56) and advanced digital aircraft design.
Length 129.5 feet (39.47 meters)
Wingspan 117.2 feet (35.72 meters)
Height 42.1 feet (12.83 meters)
Weight Max Fuel Capacity: 75,169 pounds
Max Zero Fuel Weight: 138,300 pounds
Maximum Take Off Gross Weight: 184,200 pounds (83,550 kilograms)
Max Taxi Weight: 184,700 pounds

Speed Max Cruise Speed: 490 KTAS (True Air Speed) (564 mph, 789 kmh)
Max Range Cruise Speed: 440 KTAS (True Air Speed)
Range 1200+ nautical miles
Endurance four hours onstation (1,381 miles, 2,222km)
Ceiling 41,000 ft
Runway Length Required
Crew Nine

Operational First squadron is planned for 2013



Range figure is wrong. I have posted an official link from boeing. Range is 2222km *2 + 4hours on-station.

I think you can equate that to around ~10000kms total distance travelled in the air. Give and take around 1000kms.
Last edited by Drevin on 22 Apr 2008 14:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Apr 2008 13:55

Brando wrote:I do understand that this will be another DRDO "project" which like all others will promise the moon, the sun and even the stars. The final products as everybody is aware are not on par with what our neighbours will get off the shelf as it is. IF this were a science fair where effort counted maybe we would come out on top but there is no glory or gain in reinventing the wheel.


By that token, we shouldn't attempt anything, should we?

Look, that is what the projected force structure is all about. The Phalcons are being inducted because they are qualitatively superior to what all the current and near term projected enemy force structure will be. But the Embraers are also being inducted with the indigenous equipment to use the time while the IAF uses the Phalcons to gain experience and move forward. Its not an 'or' statement, but rather a 'and' statement that is required.

The IAF has to look at the current Phalcon induction as an interim measure while giving support for the growth of the local alternative.

The advantage there would be that the Australians themselves dont hold the keys to that closet. The Americans do and if we are to sniff the wind as it were the Americans wouldnt be too willing to hand that out to the Chinese anytime soon nor would they side with them over us as the Chinese pose a greater threat than we do to their hegemony. And the old maxim always holds; the enemy of an enemy is a friend.


But have you considered the fact that the Americans would simply refuse to the acquisition, or put sanctions on the supplies whenever they feel like it?

Also, have you considered the fact that the IAF might have in fact looked at the Wedgetail and rejected it in preference of the Phalcon on techincal parameters like commonality of airframe, existence of the basic A-50 airframe to begin from and its relatively reliable sources as opposed to the US among other things?

These are questions that need to be thought out at any time anyone considers any such buys. I would trust the fact that the IAF has in fact done the same.
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 22 Apr 2008 13:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Apr 2008 13:59

A mix of large, high-capacity aircraft which are too expensive to buy in large quantities, and a smaller, cheaper aircraft to make up the numbers makes sense for a large but relatively poor country. The smaller aircraft is to fill gaps, for forward deployment, & local coverage where you don't want to risk the higher-value aircraft, & for the lower-priority tasks.


Not to mention to build up a basic operational experience of the home-grown systems without compromising security.

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Postby shiv » 22 Apr 2008 14:32

Isn't the IAF already using the "Embrazer crap" for some roles?

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Postby Singha » 22 Apr 2008 15:38

I thought its the BSF .(home ministry) who owns the Legacy jets EMB135 and ferries around VVIPs but BR has photos in IAF markings. the new 3 x 737BBJ would however come under IAFs own VVIP sqdn at Palam. the 145 will be
the next step up in length. I have flown it on continental airlines from newark
to boston and its a fine bird for its segment.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/co ... hem_01.gif

seems to have a tall undercarriage , permitting the belly fairing proposed
http://www.airplane-blog.com/uploaded_i ... 732545.jpg

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Postby Drevin » 22 Apr 2008 16:03

Philip wrote:P-8 Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA)
Specifications
Primary Function Anti-Submarine and Anti-surface Warfare
Contractor Boeing Company
Propulsion Two high-bypass turbofan engines (CFM-56) and advanced digital aircraft design.
Length 129.5 feet (39.47 meters)
Wingspan 117.2 feet (35.72 meters)
Height 42.1 feet (12.83 meters)
Weight Max Fuel Capacity: 75,169 pounds
Max Zero Fuel Weight: 138,300 pounds
Maximum Take Off Gross Weight: 184,200 pounds (83,550 kilograms)
Max Taxi Weight: 184,700 pounds

Speed Max Cruise Speed: 490 KTAS (True Air Speed) (564 mph, 789 kmh)
Max Range Cruise Speed: 440 KTAS (True Air Speed)
Range 1200+ nautical miles
Endurance four hours onstation (1,381 miles, 2,222km)
Ceiling 41,000 ft
Runway Length Required
Crew Nine

Operational First squadron is planned for 2013



Your post is misleading a bit near the Range entry. 1200nm = 2222.4kms so the figure in brackets must move up one line next to the 1200+ nautical mile value. four hours on-station is a value in addition to the figure of 2222.4kms.

So the net distance it covers on one full tank will be like

(2222.4kms * 2) + (4-hours on-station)
=4444.8kms+ 4hours on-station
=anywhere between 8000-10000kms depending on what speed he is patrolling at

If say he is moving at Mach 0.8. Then speed is 340*0.8=272m/s=979.2km/hr
For 4 hours approximately 4000kms.

Now compare P8-I with the Bear's range. :) Its not that bad.

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Postby SaiK » 22 Apr 2008 17:11

would the unkil men and russkies let us modify the p8i to fire air launched brahmos and ks172?

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Postby Avid » 22 Apr 2008 18:00

By the dozens? Phalcon is being sold in the vegetable market next to bananas?

What is the Indian defence budget - some form of unconstrained $$$ flowing out somewhere? How about we increase your taxes to double, and eventually after a few hundred generations you would have paid off the 1 Phalcon.

Besides the financial constraint in planning - there are no universally superior tools in military closets as excessive video gamers and armchair analysts often like to think. Much like in the field there is a need for the mortar, the rocket launcher, the field gun, the towed howitzer, as well as the self-propelled howitzer. Similarly, there is a need for ground-based radar, the surveillance mobile radar, the long-range radar, the AWACS, the AWE, the aerostat etc. etc.

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Postby sum » 22 Apr 2008 20:51

One thing though: we still do not have decent (in fact, none) dedicated stand off ELINT aircrafts built for the purpose to support the Phalcon fleets. The last one of the aircrafts was written off months ago in a hanger collapse

Could you please eloborate the bolded part?
Hangar collapse??which bird??Canberras?

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Apr 2008 21:34

sum wrote:
One thing though: we still do not have decent (in fact, none) dedicated stand off ELINT aircrafts built for the purpose to support the Phalcon fleets. The last one of the aircrafts was written off months ago in a hanger collapse

Could you please eloborate the bolded part?
Hangar collapse??which bird??Canberras?


Well, the IAF operated a single Gulfstream-III SRA-1 (K-2962) specifically fitted out for the ELINT role. It is unclear who actually operated the bird with elements of the IAF, ARC and even RAW involved.

Anyway, there were news reports last year that there had been a structural colllapse within the hanger where this aircraft was parked and that the aircraft suffered damage beyond repair at its base in Cuttack-Charbatia. This reportedly happened pre-2004.

This was the sole such aircraft doing the dedicated standoff ELINT role if we are to believe that the two B-707s remain on 'experimental' use only, as their official designation suggests...

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Postby p_saggu » 22 Apr 2008 22:49

Tell us more about the AESA. Is it homegrown maal a-la LRTR? What speculative ranges are we talking about here.

Also, if someday the SARAS could come on line, it could have its uses here.

There was an interesting article about how the USA experimented on using AESA as high bandwidth communication gear, any further gyaan on this subject?

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Postby bala » 23 Apr 2008 00:02

Already SARAS is fighting overweight issues. In these pictures the darn thing is tiny. What, we want radar pod on top of it. Please let us wait for the size and competency of craft to be larger.

Image

Image

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Postby SaiK » 23 Apr 2008 00:09

Image

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Ind ... nts-04855/

The Hindu report did not specify the radar involved, except to say that it is “from the [Indian] Electronics and Radar Development Establishmentâ€

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Postby k prasad » 23 Apr 2008 00:32

p_saggu wrote:Tell us more about the AESA. Is it homegrown maal a-la LRTR? What speculative ranges are we talking about here.


Yep... homemade totally... TR Modules, Antenna arrays, Processors, Radome, etc.

As for performance, 300 km for fighter size targets, with a 240 degree Field of view - +/- 60 degrees for each array, which leaves a 60 degree blind spot to the front and back sides. The radar will have 160 TRUs, each of 800 W, in 10 modules. TRUs are being mfred by AMPL, and designed by LRDE, which is also working with CABS on the processing elements.

The Radar will also have S-Band IFF modules, (the horizontal rounded waveslits at the bottom of the radome). The platform will be Embraer EMB-145 R99-A aircrafts.

For some photos of the radar mockup, see My AEW&CS Photoset

Image

Image

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/2276134601/in/set-72157603941498395/
Image

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IAF Reportedly Considering Additional Phalcon Aircraft

Postby wesley » 23 Apr 2008 07:02

Flight International is running a story, claiming that the IAF has become disenchanted by the lack of progress at DRDO - and is considering scrapping the proposed ERJ-145 based AEW system in favor of additional Phalcon aircraft:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rning.html

An interesting possiblity . . .

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Re: IAF Reportedly Considering Additional Phalcon Aircraft

Postby vivek_ahuja » 23 Apr 2008 07:18

wesley wrote:Flight International is running a story, claiming that the IAF has become disenchanted by the lack of progress at DRDO - and is considering scrapping the proposed ERJ-145 based AEW system in favor of additional Phalcon aircraft:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rning.html

An interesting possiblity . . .


Not really. Its a industry smear job from beginning to end.

statements like the one I have highlighted below give proof to the above assertion:
"The DRDO has not made any significant breakthrough in the development of the radars or other equipment for a surveillance system.


Given the advanced level the project has reached, this statement is like a punch in your face telling you the article is part of a smear campaign.

I won't even go into what and how the DRDO has done what, since that gives a modicum of credence to the above rubbish.

Even if they do, there isn't enough time to conduct the technical and flights tests," says one industry source. "India urgently needs the AEW systems, and an additional three Phalcon systems would meet that requirement."


Really? Not enough time for what? Is there some sort of race going on or do these industry "sources" know that a war is about to break out in two years time?

The latter statement above gives a clue as to where these "sources" are coming from and what their motives are.

IIRC, this article was already presented in the Military Aviation thread under a lot of rolling eyes for the very same reasons as above.

Given the competition and dirty tricks played by one industry source against another, using aviation and defence journals as media is highly rampant when you consider the value of the deals going in the billions. Understandable too...

-Vivek

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Re: IAF Reportedly Considering Additional Phalcon Aircraft

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2008 07:23

wesley wrote:Flight International is running a story, claiming that the IAF has become disenchanted by the lack of progress at DRDO - and is considering scrapping the proposed ERJ-145 based AEW system in favor of additional Phalcon aircraft:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rning.html

An interesting possiblity . . .


It is possible that this report is pure psy-ops baloney for the following reasons:

First look at how the report has been preesented:
"The DRDO has not made any significant breakthrough in the development of the radars or other equipment for a surveillance system. Even if they do, there isn't enough time to conduct the technical and flights tests," says one industry source.


"One industry source".. hmmm

Second, the report sets the seed of doubt ion people's minds - but that is the work of psy ops.

India would never publicly admit to being behind because that would mean that a supplier could then armtwist and raise prices or put pressure. OTOH a supplier of such stuff has everything to gain by releasing such "one industry source" news

I am dead certain that we will see news items released by Indian entities that are strangely in conflict with this. Something is in the air (pun unintended) but it might not be exactly what is being reported. There is some smoke and mirrors stuff going on here.

Over that past many years keen followers of BRF would time and time again have seen reports - particularly from Russian sources, saying one thing, followed by a denial or clarification from another source. The latest was about MTA a few weeks ago.

There is a lot of psy-ops and lifafa in military and defence reporting - so we have to corroborate and reconcile a whole lot of sources over many weeks to get some idea of what s going on exactly.

In fact BRF (and other enthusiast fora) seem to improve the hit rating of some sites and raise their psy ops efficacy. That is who we get a lot of media type people posting links such as the new thread we saw "Yourdefencenews dot com" or something. We are inadvertently in the psy-ops game.

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Postby sunilUpa » 23 Apr 2008 07:55

What bullcrap! Second squadron of Phalcons was on the cards from the begining!

From Standing committee on Defence 16th report

First Squadron of AWACS is planned to be inducted soon. Induction of another AWACS Squadron is planned in the beginning of 12th plan period.


link

See page 110.

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Postby k prasad » 23 Apr 2008 15:29

That report about AEW&CS is BS... in fact, from what the CABS guy told me, they've been pushing IAF to finalize the platform and get them fast... by his admission, they were quite worried tht the program would be delayed due to delays in getting the platforms.

Another thing the scientist mentioned was that they've got all the major units ready, and are integrating them as of now... the processing systems have be be finetuned somewhat, but the major elements in the radar are ready, and will be ready for flight trials latest by next year.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby clay » 13 Jun 2008 23:56

X posting from military aviation thread....

Image
Seems like AWACS will be here come Septermber.....Flight testing by IAF underway 8)

The Indian Air Force has begun tests flights of the first of three Ilyushin Il-76 transport aircraft being modified as airborne early warning system in Israel.


IAF will get delivery of first AWACS in September this year.


The other two Phalcon AEW Il-76s will start flying soon and the Air Force is likely to purchase three more, taking the number to six.


IAF will have six such platforms with delivery expected to be completed between 2009-2012.


Are they going to speed up delivery of the next three AWACS still to be ordered to complete all deliveries by 2012?

Anyway, this is good news for the IAF.

Regds, Clay

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby John Snow » 14 Jun 2008 01:38

Embrair (jet) is also operated by Alliance ( erstwhile before Jet took over I think). I did fly from Palam to Varanasi with my Moms ashes to do the right thing in 2003.
Was pretty good aircraft.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 20 Jun 2008 17:46


Singha
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Jun 2008 07:47

is there any domestic effort going on for a JSTARs type ground surveillance system
mounted on the same platform as selected for the local AEW ? Its one of the
cornerstones of modern land warfare if I read the tea leaves right. periodic recon
imagery from manned recce or uav is a poor substitute for a continuous radar picture
beamed live to commanders - esp in poor weather and night when other assets
degrade.

all our ground attack a/c also need a good SAR mode. maybe the RDY2 in uprated
Mirages will be IAF's best in that dept once it completes. Ru was reported to be
far behind.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby PaulJI » 21 Jun 2008 19:54

Singha wrote:is there any domestic effort going on for a JSTARs type ground surveillance system
mounted on the same platform as selected for the local AEW ? Its one of the
cornerstones of modern land warfare if I read the tea leaves right. periodic recon
imagery from manned recce or uav is a poor substitute for a continuous radar picture
beamed live to commanders - esp in poor weather and night when other assets
degrade.....


Long endurance UAVs can provide continuous radar images as well as, or better than, a manned aircraft. I think the advantages of a manned ground surveillance system are more to do with the size of the radar, perhaps (depending on the aircraft) being able to combine information from multiple sensors, & data analysis onboard (operators on the plane, not far away), allowing faster reactions, rather than endurance.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 03 Jul 2008 17:34

DRDO to use Embraer Platform for early Warning Systems
In a path breaking development, India and Brazil have entered into a deal to jointly develop an Early Warning System for the Indian Air Force. The agreement was signed here today by Dr. S Christopher, Director, Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), DRDO, and Mr. Luis Carlos Aguiar, Executive Vice President (Defence and Govt. Market), M/s Embraer in the presence of Mr. Marco Brandao, Brazilian Ambassador and Shri M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.

The Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System is being developed by the Bangalore based CABS for the Indian Air Force. Under the deal, Brazil's Embraer aircraft manufacturer will modify its regional jet aircraft, EMB-145 to carry the Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU), developed by the DRDO, on the aircraft's fuselage. Three modified EMB-145 aircraft will be developed under this agreement; the first one to be delivered in three years.

The various sub-systems of the AEW&C Mission system will be integrated into the 'modified green' aircraft by DRDO and the full-fledged EMB-145 based AEW&C will be flight tested for Mission system in India by DRDO along with IAF from 2012. The AEW&C system comprises many sub-systems like Radar and communication links that are being designed and developed by DRDO.

A few EMB-145 based AEW&C/AWACS versions are already in operation with Air Forces of Brazil, Mexico and Greece.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby prashanth » 03 Jul 2008 21:00

Great, they have decided on the platform finally.
But isn't 2012 a bit too late? The radar itself may be ready much earlier.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 03 Jul 2008 21:25

prashanth wrote:Great, they have decided on the platform finally.
But isn't 2012 a bit too late? The radar itself may be ready much earlier.


This is to give IAF chance to change specs after they've tried and tested Phalcons. You see, they've a right to expect something 200% more capable than Phalcons as there would be a 3-4 yr delay between the two.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 04 Jul 2008 02:39


Anujan
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Anujan » 04 Jul 2008 03:01

JTull wrote:This is to give IAF chance to change specs after they've tried and tested Phalcons. You see, they've a right to expect something 200% more capable than Phalcons as there would be a 3-4 yr delay between the two.


IAF is not so bad in changing GSQRs. Based on their desire to indigenize, I would place them somewhere between the Navy and IA. Dont forget that they whole heartedly supported project Vetrivel, use tarang RWR, siva pod, placed orders for Akash, IAF Sarang flies Dhruv with IAF committed to further orders, and they seem to be (at worst) neutral towards LCA inspite of delays with MMR, problems with Kaveri and delays due to US sanctions (contrast this with the army's attitude to Arjun).

Strengthening the fuselage of Embraers, fabricating the Radar elements, and mounting the Radar array, integrating the sensors will take 3-4 years, so flight (mission ?) testing in 2012 seems reasonable. Remember how long Phalcon deliveries took even with a proven airframe and Radar array.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby krishnan » 04 Jul 2008 10:09

prashanth wrote:Great, they have decided on the platform finally.
But isn't 2012 a bit too late? The radar itself may be ready much earlier.



The radar might be ready , but integration will take some time also , the platform delivery itself will take few months, and i really doubt it will be ready by 2012.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby narayana » 04 Jul 2008 11:09

Porkis are ahead on this one also,they are going to get their erieye by 2009,and we still plan to get by 2011-12:(

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby asbchakri » 04 Jul 2008 11:19

narayana wrote:Porkis are ahead on this one also,they are going to get their erieye by 2009,and we still plan to get by 2011-12:(


Aren't we getting the First Phalcon this September.


The Indian Air Force has begun tests flights of the first of three Ilyushin Il-76 transport aircraft being modified as airborne early warning system in Israel.



IAF will get delivery of first AWACS in September this year.


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