Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 27 Aug 2020 23:15

I'm happy the IAF is getting something, although I'll hold celebrations till the deal is actually signed. In India there are usually several years between the headlines "IAF/IA is all set to get X weapon system" and "Contract signed for X weapon system". Secondly, I'm not sure where they are going to get 2 new IL-76 platforms from.

As for the Netra there is zero point in blaming the IAF. More Netras in the current config are impossible till Embraer remains banned. If a new platform is selected it will take a few years to integrate the Netra radar, avionics and subsystems on it and perform all required testing. It is not a short term solution.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 27 Aug 2020 23:33

Govt can unban Embraer for delivering 5-10 planes and if choses ban it again. There is also a push to buy majority stake in the company.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 27 Aug 2020 23:38

nachiket wrote:I'm happy the IAF is getting something, although I'll hold celebrations till the deal is actually signed. In India there are usually several years between the headlines "IAF/IA is all set to get X weapon system" and "Contract signed for X weapon system". Secondly, I'm not sure where they are going to get 2 new IL-76 platforms from.

As for the Netra there is zero point in blaming the IAF. More Netras in the current config are impossible till Embraer remains banned. If a new platform is selected it will take a few years to integrate the Netra radar, avionics and subsystems on it and perform all required testing. It is not a short term solution.


Nachiket if I am not wrong news of 02 A50s being shipped had appeared on the forum a couple or so years back. We had assumed (then) it was ours.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 27 Aug 2020 23:43

fanne wrote:Thanks Aditya...that explains why IAF is not in dying rush for AWACS (and refuelers - SU30MKI/mIG29K have buddy refueling probes). Perhaps we might have a better A-A platform in P8I than A50I (they being more than a decade old) and some 12 of them.


The AN/APY-10 antenna is in the nose of the aircraft. It simply does not have the gain or coverage to be a full time surveillance radar and neither is the Su-30MKI. The NETRA should have been in operation with significant numbers by now along with ordering additional IAI EL/W-2090.

The remaining IL-76 based AWACS was held up because the Russians were charging an arm and a leg for IL-76. So what changed this time? It's probably costlier today than 10 years ago, budgets are still tight, but now the MoD is wiling to pay more. None of this makes sense.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 27 Aug 2020 23:45

fanne wrote:Govt can unban Embraer for delivering 5-10 planes and if choses ban it again. There is also a push to buy majority stake in the company.


The Chinese are pushing to buy Embraer.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 27 Aug 2020 23:49

deejay wrote:Nachiket if I am not wrong news of 02 A50s being shipped had appeared on the forum a couple or so years back. We had assumed (then) it was ours.

I remember something vaguely. Does that mean there are 2 IL-76 platforms (unequipped) sitting in Israel for two years waiting for us to actually order the Phalcons?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 27 Aug 2020 23:52

nachiket wrote:
deejay wrote:Nachiket if I am not wrong news of 02 A50s being shipped had appeared on the forum a couple or so years back. We had assumed (then) it was ours.

I remember something vaguely. Does that mean there are 2 IL-76 platforms (unequipped) sitting in Israel for two years waiting for us to actually order the Phalcons?


Ha ha, something like that. You can't even begin to imagine...

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 28 Aug 2020 00:28

nachiket wrote:I'm happy the IAF is getting something, although I'll hold celebrations till the deal is actually signed. In India there are usually several years between the headlines "IAF/IA is all set to get X weapon system" and "Contract signed for X weapon system". Secondly, I'm not sure where they are going to get 2 new IL-76 platforms from.

As for the Netra there is zero point in blaming the IAF. More Netras in the current config are impossible till Embraer remains banned. If a new platform is selected it will take a few years to integrate the Netra radar, avionics and subsystems on it and perform all required testing. It is not a short term solution.


This is completely self inflected, and I can bet not a single person will get prosecuted in a court of law. If we had some common sense we would have ordered a half a dozen more (maybe get the private sector to build it instead of LRDE this time) - IIR there were reports from a few years back that IAF was ready to buy many more.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby shaun » 28 Aug 2020 01:27

Is this you guys talking about

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 28 Aug 2020 02:47

This is completely self inflected, and I can bet not a single person will get prosecuted in a court of law. If we had some common sense we would have ordered a half a dozen more (maybe get the private sector to build it instead of LRDE this time) - IIR there were reports from a few years back that IAF was ready to buy many more.

Not having ordered additional Netras is a sickening oversight. If the IAF was ready to buy many more, did they place orders?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 28 Aug 2020 03:15

How difficult is it to understand? DRDO cannot build any more Netras, period. Not unless they are allowed to procure more ERJ-145 jets with the special modifications. How will the IAF order more when that is impossible. Blaming the IAF for no reason will not accomplish anything.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 28 Aug 2020 03:23

If we are going to start a new line other than ERJ145, it should be the gulfstream 700 line. It has twice the range and payload of the ERJ line. Ideally we buy Embraer and move production to India.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Aug 2020 04:40

Cybaru wrote: Ideally we buy Embraer and move production to India.


That would be a great way to ensure nothing gets handed over to the IAF for another decade. At least.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 28 Aug 2020 05:08

nachiket wrote:How difficult is it to understand? DRDO cannot build any more Netras, period. Not unless they are allowed to procure more ERJ-145 jets with the special modifications. How will the IAF order more when that is impossible. Blaming the IAF for no reason will not accomplish anything.

With far reaching consequences on national security, Embraer’s blacklisting should have been removed. The consequences were obvious before Feb 27. IAF, GOI, MOD babus are all to blame.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 28 Aug 2020 07:59

Vivek K wrote:
nachiket wrote:How difficult is it to understand? DRDO cannot build any more Netras, period. Not unless they are allowed to procure more ERJ-145 jets with the special modifications. How will the IAF order more when that is impossible. Blaming the IAF for no reason will not accomplish anything.

With far reaching consequences on national security, Embraer’s blacklisting should have been removed. The consequences were obvious before Feb 27. IAF, GOI, MOD babus are all to blame.


Did you wait to consider why Embraer got blacklisted? Should we ignore what the OEM does to cheat for these deals?

The Feb 27 consequences had nothing to do with how many Embraer's were ordered or not ordered. The project was in early stages of delivery and I don't see how having even 100 more aircraft on orders would have improved availability on 27th.

Next, I really don't see how we were lacking in AWACS, AEW or any EW capability from 27th Feb to 31st Mar 2019 or beyond. IAF wants more of NETRA's not because it is happy with them (which it is) but because it needs them as part of its on ORBAT (we don't call them ORBAT in IAF) plans. There is space for both Phalcons and Netras, the problem is money supply. At this time we are still catching up with backlog of 2004 to 2014 lack of critical acquisitions and that is taking its toll on all programs.

With due regards to all E 145 lovers, as a person selling all aircraft from all OEMs in similar categories, I personally don't fancy the plane. That said Ministry of Home Affairs (for BSF) and Ministry of Defence both had plans to acquire more (and not just for Netra) but these plans were benched.

And finally look beyond the headline which a Journalist or a a DDM editor creates to catch eyeballs. When headlines scream "IAF Loves Netra after 27th Feb" it does not mean IAF hates Phalcon, it does not mean IAF did not love Netra before 27th Feb nor does it mean IAF is only now after Netra. Unlike us, IAF has been part of NETRA testing from the get go and they have had a lot of inputs on what goes in the program. Neither IAF buys nor it selects, it is the MoD which buys or selects for all sub branches reporting into it. MoD and Ministry of Finance have the authority on all decisions. What they select or not and which quantity is based on what IAF or any service has forwarded as a requirement long time back plus their tech evaluations and in numbers very different from what is finally approved.

I strongly suggest that you self impose on yourself a deep study of past and new proposed DPPs and set up a thread to educate all members here. In the process perhaps a lot of blinkers may get lubricated. I cannot see them coming off but presently most of your acerbic remarks appear uneducated view points and hopefully that will change.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby k prasad » 28 Aug 2020 08:07

deejay wrote:
Vivek K wrote:With far reaching consequences on national security, Embraer’s blacklisting should have been removed. The consequences were obvious before Feb 27. IAF, GOI, MOD babus are all to blame.


Did you wait to consider why Embraer got blacklisted? Should we ignore what the OEM does to cheat for these deals?


At what cost to our servicemen and combat preparedness? National security takes precedence over everything else.... Figure out other ways to punish them. Blacklisting is like cutting off your own hands.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 28 Aug 2020 08:23

Vivek K wrote:
nachiket wrote:How difficult is it to understand? DRDO cannot build any more Netras, period. Not unless they are allowed to procure more ERJ-145 jets with the special modifications. How will the IAF order more when that is impossible. Blaming the IAF for no reason will not accomplish anything.

With far reaching consequences on national security, Embraer’s blacklisting should have been removed. The consequences were obvious before Feb 27. IAF, GOI, MOD babus are all to blame.


I think whether Blacklisting or not is correct as a policy is a different debate. I was not commenting on policy of blacklisting.

Personally, I would prefer prison sentences and financial penalties but thats me and I don't make policy. And I do think Embraer deserves a kick for messing around with our acquisitions.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 28 Aug 2020 09:10

Blacklisting is used in India as an escape route to make sure the dalals as well as officials involved in corruption get off scott free and at the same time the MoD/GoI can say "Hey look! We blacklisted them. Our dhotis are clean and lily white onlee." No one ever got punished for the Bofors scam....except the IA which couldn't buy another artillery piece for 20+years and had to cannibalize the ones they had for spare parts. When Denel got blacklisted, no one went to jail again, but it killed DRDO's Bhim SPH program. We eventually had to buy the Korean K9 vajra, many years later. Now Embraer getting blacklisted has all but stalled the Netra program. We could at least move on and make a decision on an alternate platform and release funds for the DRDO to procure it and start working on getting it operational. But even that doesn't seem to be on the horizon.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 28 Aug 2020 09:15

Absolutely with you on that. I am pretty sure, many such proposals would be sitting on desks of MoD at this moment.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 28 Aug 2020 09:27

fanne wrote:Thanks Aditya...that explains why IAF is not in dying rush for AWACS (and refuelers - SU30MKI/mIG29K have buddy refueling probes). Perhaps we might have a better A-A platform in P8I than A50I (they being more than a decade old) and some 12 of them.


Please. There is a huge difference between the kind of A-A coverage a P-8I can provide vs a dedicated AWACS.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 28 Aug 2020 09:30

deejay wrote:
nam wrote:The thing is, if A330 AWACS was kicked off in 2015, instead of the "fake DAC" approvals and IAF ignoring it, we would have one flying now.

Potentially getting delivered before the Phalcons, probably cheaper as well.

The fact remains IAF was ready to wait 10 years to get 2 additional phalcons. And block A330 AWACS until it comes. The biggest was the Rafale saga, which was meant to block EVERYTHING until the golden birds come!


Please prove that IAF blocked A330 AWACS and that Rafale Saga was to block everything else?


Where did IAF block anything? All it did was wait till MOD funded something which was the Rafale and S-400. Without money all the fancy plans remain only on paper.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 28 Aug 2020 09:47

deejay wrote:
Did you wait to consider why Embraer got blacklisted? Should we ignore what the OEM does to cheat for these deals?

The Feb 27 consequences had nothing to do with how many Embraer's were ordered or not ordered. The project was in early stages of delivery and I don't see how having even 100 more aircraft on orders would have improved availability on 27th.

First - every vendor does things they shouldn't be doing. But if getting the Netras in strength is important, the GOI can use its discretionary powers to order a dozen.
Second - How does being in "early stages of delivery" stop further orders from being placed?

Next, I really don't see how we were lacking in AWACS, AEW or any EW capability from 27th Feb to 31st Mar 2019 or beyond. IAF wants more of NETRA's not because it is happy with them (which it is) but because it needs them as part of its on ORBAT (we don't call them ORBAT in IAF) plans. There is space for both Phalcons and Netras, the problem is money supply. At this time we are still catching up with backlog of 2004 to 2014 lack of critical acquisitions and that is taking its toll on all programs.

Amazing - so 2 AEWs and 3 Phalcons are adequate? Sounds quite ridiculous when you factor in downtimes and border sizes.

With due regards to all E 145 lovers, as a person selling all aircraft from all OEMs in similar categories, I personally don't fancy the plane. That said Ministry of Home Affairs (for BSF) and Ministry of Defence both had plans to acquire more (and not just for Netra) but these plans were benched.

No one loves the ERJ 145. It was a platform used for the Netra. To get it working on another aircraft .... I will let you deduce the rest.

And finally look beyond the headline which a Journalist or a a DDM editor creates to catch eyeballs. When headlines scream "IAF Loves Netra after 27th Feb" it does not mean IAF hates Phalcon, it does not mean IAF did not love Netra before 27th Feb nor does it mean IAF is only now after Netra. Unlike us, IAF has been part of NETRA testing from the get go and they have had a lot of inputs on what goes in the program. .........

How did you conclude that any poster spoke badly about the Phalcon? Wanting more Netras is a easy way to build up capability. The Phalcons take a long time and IAF/GOI/MOD find it difficult to order a significant number at one go.

I strongly suggest that you self impose on yourself a deep study of past and new proposed DPPs and set up a thread to educate all members here. In the process perhaps a lot of blinkers may get lubricated. I cannot see them coming off but presently most of your acerbic remarks appear uneducated view points and hopefully that will change.

I strongly suggest for you to rise above bureaucratic morass and excuses. We are talking about national security. If India cannot rise about her corruption and bureaucracy, then.....

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 28 Aug 2020 12:15

Vivek K wrote:
deejay wrote:
Did you wait to consider why Embraer got blacklisted? Should we ignore what the OEM does to cheat for these deals?

The Feb 27 consequences had nothing to do with how many Embraer's were ordered or not ordered. The project was in early stages of delivery and I don't see how having even 100 more aircraft on orders would have improved availability on 27th.

First - every vendor does things they shouldn't be doing. But if getting the Netras in strength is important, the GOI can use its discretionary powers to order a dozen.
Second - How does being in "early stages of delivery" stop further orders from being placed?


So we should accept cheating and fraud at tax payers expense and Military should take the fall for corruption. This in a country which never complains about corruption in procurement of oil, power equipments, railways, etc but goes hammer and tongs against defence procurement starting with Nehru and jeeps. You are the one who screams loudest at Military for loving imports and when a step, however shortsighted is taken, you bring in cost if security. Cost of Security also applies to corruption issues.

If you are ok because in this case corruption is becoming a barrier to your favoured procurement, write to the PM. However, GOI will have to find ways to handle these issues of OEM malpractices as it has to answer both to Parliamentary oversight and the Public. What is the right way? I don't know. I have said what I prefer in an earlier post but I don't make the decisions. Don't know why this was done.

Vivek K wrote:
Next, I really don't see how we were lacking in AWACS, AEW or any EW capability from 27th Feb to 31st Mar 2019 or beyond. IAF wants more of NETRA's not because it is happy with them (which it is) but because it needs them as part of its on ORBAT (we don't call them ORBAT in IAF) plans. There is space for both Phalcons and Netras, the problem is money supply. At this time we are still catching up with backlog of 2004 to 2014 lack of critical acquisitions and that is taking its toll on all programs.

Amazing - so 2 AEWs and 3 Phalcons are adequate? Sounds quite ridiculous when you factor in downtimes and border sizes.


You really need to read before you start typing out. I have clearly said IAF has "space for both Palcons and Netras" and it needs more of them as part of its Orbat. There was no problems created because we were lacking in AWACS, AEW or any EW capabilities on 27th Feb.

Vivek K wrote:
With due regards to all E 145 lovers, as a person selling all aircraft from all OEMs in similar categories, I personally don't fancy the plane. That said Ministry of Home Affairs (for BSF) and Ministry of Defence both had plans to acquire more (and not just for Netra) but these plans were benched.

No one loves the ERJ 145. It was a platform used for the Netra. To get it working on another aircraft .... I will let you deduce the rest.


Which could only have begun after Netra was successfully tested and integrated. Please read TSarkar Sir's post earlier on timelines for these. While I have no news link, alternate plans are there with MoD.

Vivek K wrote:
And finally look beyond the headline which a Journalist or a a DDM editor creates to catch eyeballs. When headlines scream "IAF Loves Netra after 27th Feb" it does not mean IAF hates Phalcon, it does not mean IAF did not love Netra before 27th Feb nor does it mean IAF is only now after Netra. Unlike us, IAF has been part of NETRA testing from the get go and they have had a lot of inputs on what goes in the program. .........

How did you conclude that any poster spoke badly about the Phalcon? Wanting more Netras is a easy way to build up capability. The Phalcons take a long time and IAF/GOI/MOD find it difficult to order a significant number at one go.


OK, once again, read what I wrote again. I never wrote any poster spoke badly about the Phalcon. I think this repetitive insertion of claims never made has a purpose. I suspect you are deliberately making twisted statements to sidestep or confuse this issue.

On why a trial system is not ordered in bulk
- Possible flaws or problems which may come out when program is finished
-MoD never clears bulk purchases. Look at Naval acquisitions, Army acquisitions and even IAF acquisitions. Except for the large nos of Su 30s procured and now the pending 83Mk1A orders we have been promised, piece meal is what we get. And all of us are livid but that is a fact. Can you believe it there is no follow on orders after IAC-1? Can you believe the quantity of Smerch rockets ordered yesterday or day before?

Vivek K wrote:
I strongly suggest that you self impose on yourself a deep study of past and new proposed DPPs and set up a thread to educate all members here. In the process perhaps a lot of blinkers may get lubricated. I cannot see them coming off but presently most of your acerbic remarks appear uneducated view points and hopefully that will change.

I strongly suggest for you to rise above bureaucratic morass and excuses. We are talking about national security. If India cannot rise about her corruption and bureaucracy, then.....


Vivek, what you are trying is to play equal equal. Because, I strongly suggested you read DPP, you are strongly suggesting that I rise above bureaucratic morass & excuses. Shite! :rotfl: I am the one complaining that we are stuck with this system and before you (You, Vivek) go making accusations against IAF or (now) me, it will be worthwhile that you educate yourself on what is causing these issues in the first place. It will save BRF a lot of repetitive baseless posts and will definitely help elevate the discussions to constructive stuff.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 28 Aug 2020 12:34

No point arguing over this. We just dont have the money or the guts to order the A330 based awacs or the MRTTs. Both were sanctioned/approved/whatever the process is eons ago but no contract. We selected the MRTT twice and we're doing it again in a new process. IAF isn't to blame here.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 28 Aug 2020 12:40

Prasad wrote:No point arguing over this. We just dont have the money or the guts to order the A330 based awacs or the MRTTs. Both were sanctioned/approved/whatever the process is eons ago but no contract. We selected the MRTT twice and we're doing it again in a new process. IAF isn't to blame here.


If you look at DAC approved but yet to be ordered contracts as of today, despite all these emergency procurement orders given from this list since the Indo_China flare up, the contract values altogether will still be over US$ 30 Billion (my guesstimate). This includes the A330 AWACS, MRTT, C295s, Tejas Mk 1As and a host of other IA, IAF, IN orders.

All waiting for final orders but mostly in queue because of lack of dollars.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Aug 2020 14:45

If IAf can have IL 76 based new Phalcons, why not IL 76 based Netra, since everything else is accepted why not hand 5-6 contracts of IL 76 with Netra?

Israelis can put a Phalcon on Boeing, Airbus or an IL 76- all 3 can make a jet with a Chapati, so why not say whichever platform for 2 Phalcons will be used for the next 5 or 6 Netras?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 28 Aug 2020 18:13

IL-76 was a bad platform (all things considered) - It was cheap and it was already in use with IAF. Also when Phalcons were ordered- Our Economy and prevailing geo politics did not allow any AWACS but A-50 (Russian) or IL-76 based Phalcons. India was $708 billion GDP in 2004, and wanted to get 3 Phalcons for 1.1 Billion USD. In 2020, India is a 3 Trillion economy, ordering 2 phalcons for $1 billion.
Today, Geo politics have also changed, we can pick a western bird and are not restricted to only Russian choice. Russian choice is still most cost effective (cheapest) but comes at cost of endurance and availability. When the platform cost is 10-20% of the overall cost, it makes sense to go for a better platform, pay a premium for platform. That extra money actually buys us twice the capacity.
BUT
It looks like 2 IL-76 were bought (either by us or Israelis) and are mothballed. We are perhaps honoring an existing deal. In that sense, it will have to be IL-76, platform is cheap and hopefully integration faster than any other platform.
Netra should be on either ER-145 (It is cheap, we have done it once before, limited capability) or a high end platform (330) with full capability. I suspect we will be ordering more Israeli airborne systems in decades to come (only because they would be ahead of Indian R&D) as silver bullet solutions (bulk being Indian), the third AWEC will be on a western plane (Boeing or Airbus)

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Aug 2020 01:39

Karan M wrote:
fanne wrote:Thanks Aditya...that explains why IAF is not in dying rush for AWACS (and refuelers - SU30MKI/mIG29K have buddy refueling probes). Perhaps we might have a better A-A platform in P8I than A50I (they being more than a decade old) and some 12 of them.


Please. There is a huge difference between the kind of A-A coverage a P-8I can provide vs a dedicated AWACS.


That's what I said earlier. Neither the P-8I or Su-30MKI have a full 3D scanning radar and the antenna resides in the nose which again limits the antenna gain.

If the IAF and MoD must spend money on foreign arms, then go for the AN/APY-10 radar and the E-2D Hawkeye the USN is using. This would be a very good small AWACS.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 29 Aug 2020 02:00

Mort Walker wrote:
Karan M wrote:If the IAF and MoD must spend money on foreign arms, then go for the AN/APY-10 radar and the E-2D Hawkeye the USN is using. This would be a very good small AWACS.


The Gulfstream 700 and the bombardier 7500 have far more range, ceiling, and payload compared to the ERJ line. If a new platform needs to be chosen, it should be where we control the radar and electronics and mate it with a platform for choice. Hopefully this time they order like 20 over 5 years or so.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 29 Aug 2020 02:02

brar_w wrote:
Cybaru wrote: Ideally we buy Embraer and move production to India.


That would be a great way to ensure nothing gets handed over to the IAF for another decade. At least.


You are twisting it around sir! One can always order a few from current line if we are buying the firm. Where it gets built doesn't matter anymore. But yes it would be good to move the KC390 line to India to eventually retire all the IL-76s.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 29 Aug 2020 02:08

The point wasn't to twist it around or anything. It is not going to be easy to buy Embraer and move production to India. Embraer and the Brazilian government get a vote in that even if we assume the military programs are for sale which would be strange since the company separated its military and commercial divisions for the very purpose of creating a commercial vehicle that could be divested. [ I'm not even going to go into how selling and producing in India essentially solves zero of the issues plaguing Embraer's commercial business, which it would naturally attempt to solve via a sale.]

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Aug 2020 03:40

Cybaru wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:


The Gulfstream 700 and the bombardier 7500 have far more range, ceiling, and payload compared to the ERJ line. If a new platform needs to be chosen, it should be where we control the radar and electronics and mate it with a platform for choice. Hopefully this time they order like 20 over 5 years or so.


Switching from the Embraer ERJ to the Gulfstream or Bombardier could be done in 5 years would be great, and should have been done. What is being done is money is being thrown to foreign purchases. It may be easier to buy Northrop/Lockheed E-2Ds meant for USN and have them delivered to the IAF in a quick FMS deal. Until the GoI puts serious funds into domestic production of defense items, this will continue to be a problem. How many pages has that stupid "Mig-21 Shoots Down F-16" thread gone on? Had there been a half-dozen LCA Tejas and a couple of NETRAs, an entire squadron of PAF would be downed.

On top of this the full blown A330 AWACS is going slow when it was a much better solution.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2020 04:22

Mort Walker wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Please. There is a huge difference between the kind of A-A coverage a P-8I can provide vs a dedicated AWACS.


That's what I said earlier. Neither the P-8I or Su-30MKI have a full 3D scanning radar and the antenna resides in the nose which again limits the antenna gain.


Precisely - agree completely.

If the IAF and MoD must spend money on foreign arms, then go for the AN/APY-10 radar and the E-2D Hawkeye the USN is using. This would be a very good small AWACS.


That would add another complex system to the IAF though I do agree the UHF band system is very tempting from the POV of the fact its effectively an anti-stealth system!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Aug 2020 04:42

Karan M wrote:That would add another complex system to the IAF though I do agree the UHF band system is very tempting from the POV of the fact its effectively an anti-stealth system!


The E-2D was offered in 2008/09 in a briefing to the IN and they were interested at the time. I'm sure if it was this government, then a way would have been found to get it. The J-20 ding dong would be mincemeat.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rishirishi » 29 Aug 2020 05:08

nachiket wrote:Blacklisting is used in India as an escape route to make sure the dalals as well as officials involved in corruption get off scott free and at the same time the MoD/GoI can say "Hey look! We blacklisted them. Our dhotis are clean and lily white onlee." No one ever got punished for the Bofors scam....except the IA which couldn't buy another artillery piece for 20+years and had to cannibalize the ones they had for spare parts. When Denel got blacklisted, no one went to jail again, but it killed DRDO's Bhim SPH program. We eventually had to buy the Korean K9 vajra, many years later. Now Embraer getting blacklisted has all but stalled the Netra program. We could at least move on and make a decision on an alternate platform and release funds for the DRDO to procure it and start working on getting it operational. But even that doesn't seem to be on the horizon.


Bulls eye.
The ruskies, Israeli and Amrikis never got charged with any bribe scandel. Wonder why it is only the smaller countries that end up in accusations. It also remains a mystery how the press get hold of details of such secret defense info.

Why blacklist companies. Bribes are demanded by the Indian officials. It only hurts India to blacklist companies.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby pandyan » 30 Aug 2020 02:06

Train 18 is also the same story. Someone accused someone of doing something. We have no idea what the outcome was, whether allegations of corruption were true. However, the train 18 got delayed like forever.

The problem is there is no punishment for people who raise bogus allegations and disrupt the progress. While we need to ensure corruption allegations are handled properly, if someone intentionally derails a program, they should face the law.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 30 Aug 2020 16:11

^^^ The problem is not bogus allegations. There is no indication that the Embraer or AugustaWestland trangressions were false.

The problem is the kind of action taken as "punishment." The best punishment to deter corruption should be on the babus who have their hands out. Banning the firms critical to our own efforts whether it is aircraft for our AEW project or torpedoes for our SSK program is stupid license Raj intransigence that has hurt India at all levels of society not just military procurement.

The punishment doesn't deter the people asking for the bribes. It punishes not just the firm by banning them but our own projects too by applying an indiscriminate hammer on everything.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby idan » 30 Aug 2020 16:27

The problem can be addressed very easily. For acquiring a commercial platform like Embraer, GOI instead of using it's own procurement apparatus should issue a RFQ with private players in India like Tatas, Mahindras etc to procure Embraer's and do some basic integration work together with DRDO. This way things will move fast, GOI will have control over costs and no CAG tamasha over foreign aircraft acquisition - commissions, bribes, under table money let it be handled by private players!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby LakshmanPST » 30 Aug 2020 18:57

The way ahead should be to take opinion of the service whether the particular item is critical...
If the item is critical and we need more numbers (like Netra, HDW etc.), that item should be excluded from the ban list and the rates should be renegotiated...
The firm may be banned for other items...

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby pandyan » 30 Aug 2020 21:38

government to government deals are relatively clean. Parrikarji did mention that there is a lot of effort and help needed by manufacturers to sell their wares. He was of the opinion that we should allow representatives and the commission etc. should be included and mentioned in the contract. (i am paraphrasing...)

http://www.spsmai.com/experts-speak/?id ... -Good-Move
Allowing Middlemen is Good Move

It should be left to the company to decide how much commission it wants to pay the agent. The bottom line is: middlemen were always there who are now being legalised.

On the last day of last year (December 31, 2014) it was reported in media that a new government policy legalising middlemen in arms purchases – a source of massive controversies in the past – will be in place soon. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said, “The middlemen have to be declared and their commission cannot be linked to the outcome of negotiations.” Parrikar said that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will announce a more liberalised export regime centred on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘Make in India’ vision, adding, “Private companies must be allowed to export defence equipment made in India, and for that rules will be changed.”


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