Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 07 Nov 2020 00:36

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/status/1314807052363988992?s=20 ---> We must admire the beauty that DRDO has produced. The Balakot hero Netra AEW&CS.



What are the two doohickeys hanging from the wings?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby idan » 07 Nov 2020 03:40

Understand that there is embargo for Embraer ERJ 145 purchase. Does that apply to second hand/nearly new airframe of ERJ 145s from open market as well? There must be a way around and structural modifications can be done by a third party - part of aerospace MRO chain globally.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2020 06:05

The cost of an IL-76T/ A-50 platform for the Phalcon AWACS is around $50M ,far less than an A-330,around $235M. Therefore acquiring more IL-76 upgraded versions -current prod. model is the most cost-effective solution since 5 Phalcons will be using the same platform.
The simplest solution though in cash-strapped times is through the G-2-G way for more EMB platforms,where another 7 to 9 can be ordered. At $0.5 an AWACS, $1B for the extra 2, with NETRA on an EMB platform costing $112M a pop, another min. order of 5 would only cost around $0.5B B. That would give us 5 AWACS and 5 NETRA.Given the enormous force multiplying factor of AWACS/AEW systems, we can certainly afford a few more NETRA
given the huge airspace that we have to monitor.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 07 Nov 2020 06:36

Philip wrote:The cost of an IL-76T/ A-50 platform for the Phalcon AWACS is around $50M ,far less than an A-330,around $235M. Therefore acquiring more IL-76 upgraded versions -current prod. model is the most cost-effective solution since 5 Phalcons will be using the same platform.


In the larger scheme of things (it's the mission system cost that really counts) the platform cost (to acquire) should be second, third, or LAST in terms of prioritizing a platform and trading between things like platform reliability (dispatch reliability for the baseline A-330 can be looked up as hundreds are in service worldwide) and acquisition cost. The A-330 or an equivalent commercial airliner is designed to fly daily and maintain very high dispatch reliability. In a Military application you won't even consume its airframe life before your mission systems become obsolete and require overhaul. There is merit in choosing the most available and reliable platform with the best support. In war you need these things to provide constant coverage. A commercial airliner has a proven track record of delivering that day in and day out from both a system design perspective and from a supply chain perspective. 9 out of 10 times these systems brush up against military specific systems (when both can do the job) the former will win. The IAF and MOD are smart in choosing the A-330. It is a logical thing to do and most world powers would do the same (or an equivalent commercial derived product if available).
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Nov 2020 07:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 07 Nov 2020 07:19

There is only one reason to reject IL-76 - It's availability. It is maintenance intensive and any western platform will be 5-6 times more available than IL-76/78 in an year. It is no comparison. Having AWACS on a hanger queen, it is better not having it.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby John » 07 Nov 2020 08:15

Philip wrote:The cost of an IL-76T/ A-50 platform for the Phalcon AWACS is around $50M ,far less than an A-330,around $235M. Therefore acquiring more IL-76 upgraded versions -current prod. model is the most cost-effective solution since 5 Phalcons will be using the same platform.
The simplest solution though in cash-strapped times is through the G-2-G way for more EMB platforms,where another 7 to 9 can be ordered. At $0.5 an AWACS, $1B for the extra 2, with NETRA on an EMB platform costing $112M a pop, another min. order of 5 would only cost around $0.5B B. That would give us 5 AWACS and 5 NETRA.Given the enormous force multiplying factor of AWACS/AEW systems, we can certainly afford a few more NETRA
given the huge airspace that we have to monitor.


Do you just make up these number we paid 170 mill for each platform and that was in 2009. It is definetly as expensive as A-330.

"India signed a deal with Ilyushin of Russia for the supply of three Il-76 A-50 heavy airlifter platforms, which were to be used as platforms for these radar systems, for an additional US $500 million."

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 07 Nov 2020 09:21

nachiket wrote:Is there an aerodynamic reason for the main antenna to be tilted forward instead of being perfectly horizontal?

Don't know for sure. But this arrangement will create stress rather than strain. Structurally safer.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 07 Nov 2020 09:37

Indranil wrote:
nachiket wrote:Is there an aerodynamic reason for the main antenna to be tilted forward instead of being perfectly horizontal?

Don't know for sure. But this arrangement will create stress rather than strain. Structurally safer.


On the E2 the radome is designed to create lift.

That could be one of the reasons for other radome structure as well.

I speak about E2 as it has been actually been documented for the radome.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby John » 08 Nov 2020 22:00

Latest report is that russia is demanding billion for 2 A-50ei which will bring the total cost 2 billion. It makes no sense to go forward with Il-76 given the low availability and steep price tag.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 Nov 2020 22:23

We need more than 3 Phalcons for sure.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby John » 08 Nov 2020 22:53

Karan M wrote:We need more than 3 Phalcons for sure.

Should have made the decision to switch over to A-330 and went ahead with it. It would have forced the Russians to come to negotiation table and reduce 3x price escalation for A-50ei. Now with no other quick alternatives we are writing blank check to Russia.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 09 Nov 2020 00:37

John wrote:Latest report is that russia is demanding billion for 2 A-50ei which will bring the total cost 2 billion. It makes no sense to go forward with Il-76 given the low availability and steep price tag.


Can you provide a link? If true this is highway robbery and Russia is no friend of India.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 09 Nov 2020 01:07

The idiocy of not getting the civil airliners and pooling them with the mrtt and awacs orders into a big deal for airbus and getting them to reduce price and move some mro and maybe a line or major assembly manufacturing to india is mindboggling.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Ashokk » 09 Nov 2020 01:22

Mort Walker wrote:
John wrote:Latest report is that russia is demanding billion for 2 A-50ei which will bring the total cost 2 billion. It makes no sense to go forward with Il-76 given the low availability and steep price tag.


Can you provide a link? If true this is highway robbery and Russia is no friend of India.

India plans to purchase two AWACS A-50EI aircraft

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby John » 09 Nov 2020 02:39

Mort Walker wrote:
John wrote:Latest report is that russia is demanding billion for 2 A-50ei which will bring the total cost 2 billion. It makes no sense to go forward with Il-76 given the low availability and steep price tag.


Can you provide a link? If true this is highway robbery and Russia is no friend of India.

Link has been provided and reportedly Russians wanted a billion because Israel was getting a billion and didn't want to be paid less than them. We walked away because of that but they knew we weren't serious with A-330 and would come crawling back.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 09 Nov 2020 03:42

John wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
Can you provide a link? If true this is highway robbery and Russia is no friend of India.

Link has been provided and reportedly Russians wanted a billion because Israel was getting a billion and didn't want to be paid less than them. We walked away because of that but they knew we weren't serious with A-330 and would come crawling back.


where does it say its a billion for the 2 planes alone ?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 09 Nov 2020 03:49

The above link says $2 billion for the entire project including the aircraft.

From an earlier report in August this year, $1 billion for the radar and comms system on two aircraft.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-t ... ces%20said.

That puts the Russian IL-76 at a cost of $500 million each. Which is still highway robbery. The Russians have India by the balls and are squeezing them, going to another platform will require significant airframe analysis and testing. There is a way out of this. Boeing has done this work for the Japanese E767 program some 20 years ago and the Boeing 767 could be purchased provided the radome size, weight and installation are the same. The other option is to look at the Boeing 737 which has also done an analysis. Boeing can deliver faster and cheaper at around $200-$250 million/aircraft.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby John » 09 Nov 2020 04:09

kit wrote:
John wrote:Link has been provided and reportedly Russians wanted a billion because Israel was getting a billion and didn't want to be paid less than them. We walked away because of that but they knew we weren't serious with A-330 and would come crawling back.


where does it say its a billion for the 2 planes alone ?


https://www.airrecognition.com/index.ph ... radar.html

The PHALCON radar is going to cost about $1 billion with another $1 billion going towards the purchase of the platform, in this case, Russian A-50 aircraft. The radar and the platform will be integrated in Israel. It will take about two to three years for the delivery of the complete system.


There was another article from couple years ago which detailed Russians 3x price escalation (paid 500 mill for 3 before so it works out 1 billion for 2).

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 09 Nov 2020 06:45

at that price a western craft will be far better. In any case for a 500 million platform, you don't want to go cheap on platform, but pay a premium so that this $500 million dollars platform (minus the aircraft) is airborne maximum amount of time at lesser fuel cost (and enough power availability and crew comfort). On all of these, western planes score and at that price it may be cheaper than IL-78. It may take longer than IL-78 to integrate but something worth looking into

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Nov 2020 07:02

John,that's the price of an IL-76TD ,the new ones being built totally in Russia over the last few years,not the earlier Sov. legacy ones which were Uzbek built/ assembled.
To my knowledge,the total price for the 2 extra Phalcons is $1B,$500M a pop,using the new IL-76TD birds.

I just ckd. a website,the approx. cost of a new IL-76TD is given as $50M.
If I'm not mistaken,the approx.40 on order for the RuAF given a couple of years ago was around $38M each.
There is simply no way that an aircraft costing approx. $250M+ ( A 330-200 230.5M,A 330-300 $264M,2020 costs) will ever in its lifespan be cheaper than one 1/5th its cost. We have been operating over 20 legacy 1L-76s without complaint for decades,why they're being upgraded too. Having the TD as the same platform for the DRDO built AWACS,not the Israeli Phalcon radar,will be easier to operate,support and maintain as there will be in the inventory over 30 of the type,more if new IL-78 tankers are acquired too.One type fits all.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby John » 09 Nov 2020 08:12

Philip wrote:I just ckd. a website,the approx. cost of a new IL-76TD is given as $50M.

You are comparing a used soviet era aircraft with limited life and suggesting we put 1/2 billion worth of equipment on it. While at it why not compare it with used A-330s or other AC rather than comparing new one with recent downturn you can find plenty of platforms cheap. Also If you do that you need to bring the airframe up to par which takes us to the next point.

To make any necessary changes & repair them and bring them up to par will cost significantly as once you again you have to rely on mother Russia. It is much better to do it on western commercial AC platform than some soviet era AC.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Nov 2020 11:40

Who''s talking about a " used" ac? A brand new IL-76TD,which by the way IS being used for the 2 extra Phalcon AWACS systems! And it's the IAF that has chosen the platforms.

The IAF,not moi,want the fleet of legacy IL-76s upgraded as they have had sn excellent track record in service and have at least another decade of service left in them,most of thf airframes.A former AM,head of transport,VVIP flight,etc.,praised the birds for their capability.In case one has forgotten,the 76s have been used for decades when our MKIs,etc. have taken part in overseas deployment during air exercises with friendly nations,plus in combat during the IPKF ops in SL,Op.Cactus in the Maldives,etc. Now that the C-17 production is done and dusted,the only heavyweight military transport and its variants in production is the 76TD,not counting anything Chin.

A new A-330 as I pointed out is approx.$250M,5 times as much as a 76TD! Even a used 330 will be more expensive,will need much moolah to refurbish and have a far shorter lifespan. It is why repeatedly the A-330 has been shot down on the cost factor by the MOD. A new stunt was also tried,wanting only a twin-engined ac so the 76TD the best option,could be ruled out! Adding yet another bird to the IAF's menagerie of types only adds to the support burden and makes little sense when the IAF's tankers too are IL-78s.

I can understand if the 76s were of former Sov.era Uzbek built ones,not the new vastly upgraded 76TDs,with 2 crew less,new engines,glass cockpit, extra 10t payload ,range,endurance,etc.,etc.There's plenty of info available on the bird in western mil sites with full specs,etc.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby John » 10 Nov 2020 00:53

Philip wrote:Who''s talking about a " used" ac? A brand new IL-76TD,which by the way IS being used for the 2 extra Phalcon AWACS systems! And it's the IAF that has chosen the platforms.

Philip please stick to topic there is no proof or evidence that IL-76TD can be acquired and be modified for Phalcon that cheap if that can be done we would have done it and other big if is Russia would have "Allowed", case closed. Currently as it stands we are paying 1 billion for 2 A-50EI.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 10 Nov 2020 05:47

John wrote:
Philip wrote:Who''s talking about a " used" ac? A brand new IL-76TD,which by the way IS being used for the 2 extra Phalcon AWACS systems! And it's the IAF that has chosen the platforms.

Philip please stick to topic there is no proof or evidence that IL-76TD can be acquired and be modified for Phalcon that cheap if that can be done we would have done it and other big if is Russia would have "Allowed", case closed. Currently as it stands we are paying 1 billion for 2 A-50EI.



We need a separate thread for Marshall Filipov!!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 10 Nov 2020 08:07

fanne wrote:at that price a western craft will be far better. In any case for a 500 million platform, you don't want to go cheap on airplane, but pay a premium so that this $500 million dollars platform (minus the aircraft) is airborne maximum amount of time at lesser fuel cost (and enough power availability and crew comfort). On all of these, western planes score and at that price it may be cheaper than IL-78. It may take longer than IL-78 to integrate but something worth looking into

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 10 Nov 2020 08:48

^^^Mounting a radome will require an airframe analysis. Boeing has done it for the 767 and to some extent on the 737. It makes sense to go with either of these two platforms as they can be serviced with commercial aircraft logistics.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Dec 2020 20:57

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 27905?s=20 ---> Report: Each of IAFs operational commands (5 such command) has a requirement of three AEW&CS/AWACS each (Total of 12-15). With C-295 deal to be signed in early 2021, IAF needs to purchase the AEW&C version of the aircraft with Netra system too (in case more Emb-145 is unavailable).

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 10 Dec 2020 00:42

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1336598687276027905?s=20 ---> Report: Each of IAFs operational commands (5 such command) has a requirement of three AEW&CS/AWACS each (Total of 12-15). With C-295 deal to be signed in early 2021, IAF needs to purchase the AEW&C version of the aircraft with Netra system too (in case more Emb-145 is unavailable).


With one aircraft on station per theatre at the time of conflict, 3 may not be sufficient for some commands!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 11 Dec 2020 18:37

JTull wrote:
With one aircraft on station per theatre at the time of conflict, 3 may not be sufficient for some commands!



The equation should be from the point of view of the availability of crews. If 3 aircrafts have 5 crew shared between them. Then missions can be flown for indefinite period.

But still an additional aircraft per command will ease the situation quite well.


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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 16 Dec 2020 16:09

^^^great if they do it. Will save cost and time.
Since the modification is to be done in europe, guess they are planning it on A321.
AI has 20 of them.
http://www.airindia.in/fleet-details.htm

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby schinnas » 16 Dec 2020 16:16

Brilliant move. AI planes are mostly collecting dust due to Covid and they can retire part of their debt this way and make them attractive to a private buyer. Armed forces get readily available planes.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 16 Dec 2020 16:41

schinnas wrote:Brilliant move. AI planes are mostly collecting dust due to Covid and they can retire part of their debt this way and make them attractive to a private buyer. Armed forces get readily available planes.

A noob pooch :?: :?:
Can we not use the same method to alter/modify for 'Tankers'!!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kvraghav » 16 Dec 2020 16:46

It might also be the 787 since they exactly match the 767 and there are already large AWACS on 767.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 16 Dec 2020 16:51




seems to be an AEW&C with capabilities between the Netra and DRDO AWACS

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 16 Dec 2020 16:59

Rsatchi wrote:
schinnas wrote:Brilliant move. AI planes are mostly collecting dust due to Covid and they can retire part of their debt this way and make them attractive to a private buyer. Armed forces get readily available planes.

A noob pooch :?: :?:
Can we not use the same method to alter/modify for 'Tankers'!!


Quite so , check this out

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories/Airbus-transforms-A330s-into-Multi-Role-Tanker-Transports-through-an-optimised-conversion-process.html

Israelis have developed some customized tanker conversions as well..

If properly utilized a part of Air India fleet could be converted to tankers and AEW aircraft.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Dec 2020 17:24

Very smart move! They can get into implementation-mode straightaway.

I still wish they'd order at least 6 more Embraer-based Netras. Will come sooner than AWACS and will provide the numbers. All it needs is a stroke of the pen from the MoD, removing the blacklist

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 16 Dec 2020 17:48

kit wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:A noob pooch :?: :?:
Can we not use the same method to alter/modify for 'Tankers'!!


Quite so , check this out

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories/Airbus-transforms-A330s-into-Multi-Role-Tanker-Transports-through-an-optimised-conversion-process.html

Israelis have developed some customized tanker conversions as well..

If properly utilized a part of Air India fleet could be converted to tankers and AEW aircraft.



Much of Air India's fleet as well as the rest of India's carriers is leased. Utilizing AI assets is not really worth pinning hopes on.

We need to finalize a contract with Airbus to get this thing rolling. The Israelis could be a good backup plan if Airbus goes crazy with the pricing quotes on the customization. Though experience from the Phalcon deal tells us they won't be cheap either. At least it sets up competition so Airbus doesn't think it can dictate terms with abandon.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 16 Dec 2020 18:26

Probably 777, which is in the same scale as A330. A320 is quite small for a S band radar and required range.

We need a powerful platform to pump the power required for a 600KM radar and ability to track Pak/China BM.

I was hoping Jet airways A330 would be used, but given the mess it is, I guess Air India is much easier. DRDO can take away the jet right away and let babus discuss and do left hand right hand money transfers on their own sweet time.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby basant » 16 Dec 2020 18:53

chola wrote:Much of Air India's fleet as well as the rest of India's carriers is leased. Utilizing AI assets is not really worth pinning hopes on.


As per its list, it owns 87/172.


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