Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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sunilUpa
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Postby sunilUpa » 18 Dec 2007 01:44

maitya wrote:Harry, welcome back!! It's been quite some time since you posted here. Again welcome back ... :)


:?: :?: :!: :!: :idea:

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Postby Kartik » 18 Dec 2007 02:34

maitya wrote:Harry, welcome back!! It's been quite some time since you posted here. Again welcome back ... :)


check the date of Harry's post. I wonder where he's disappeared..some of the best stuff on BR used to come from him..

maitya
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Postby maitya » 18 Dec 2007 04:14

Yep - my bad!! Didnt notice the his post dates. :oops:
Wonder where he has vanished nowadays ...

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Postby CPrakash » 18 Dec 2007 04:21

maitya wrote:Yep - my bad!! Didnt notice the his post dates. :oops:
Wonder where he has vanished nowadays ...


He must have got married and his Supreme HQ has cut off his internet access :P :P

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Postby K Mehta » 18 Dec 2007 12:11

I hope harry is well, dont see him posting on any other forum too.

sunilUpa
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AWACS back on runway

Postby sunilUpa » 03 Feb 2008 09:52

AWACS back on runway

KOCHI: Nearly a decade after its dreams of flying an indigenous Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) crashed, the vroom of a breakthrough has announced the return of this prestigious programme of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

[quote]The Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), Bangalore, has developed an Indian transmitter/ receiver module that will form the nerve of the system. It’s an array of a number of T/R (transmit/receive) modules that make up the AWACS' nervous system making it capable of rummaging through all electronic movements in a radius of hundreds of kilometers.

[b]Top CABS sources told this website's newspaper that India would soon patent its T/R module as “it’s unique in many respects.â€

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Postby sum » 03 Feb 2008 10:04

Great news...so,the embraer it is...
Good to note(if the article is accurate) that the IAF is with the project and next phase involves larger aircraft instead of the IAF insisting on larger aircraft from the very start and stalling the programme...

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Postby Austin » 03 Feb 2008 10:38

The next phase of the programme, sources said, will be to develop a more powerful and larger system that can be flown on a bigger platform like an Airbus 319/320 or a Boeing in the 777 series.


Did they say Boeing 777 :wink:

A better and proven platform for this should be IL-76 , we already have 3 contracted for Phalcon , you just extend our technology to that proven platform.

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Postby Malay » 03 Feb 2008 13:51

Either that or the MTA, that would be a very good option as well, not as big as the Il-76, but big enough to hold its own wrt loiter time etc. Idea IMO for forming the 'secondary' nodes to the Phalcons.

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Re: AWACS back on runway

Postby Arun_S » 03 Feb 2008 14:12

[quote="sunilUpa"]AWACS back on runway
[b]
KOCHI: Nearly a decade after its dreams of flying an indigenous Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) crashed, the vroom of a breakthrough has announced the return of this prestigious programme of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

... .. [b]Top CABS sources told this website's newspaper that [color=red]India would soon patent its T/R module as “it’s unique in many respects.â€

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Postby Austin » 03 Feb 2008 15:21

Too bad , so DRDO doesn't have a lawyer , who can review their whole patent application process ?

If the LRDE work revels every thing , isnt that itself a risk as it gives a good idea how things work ?


Malay MTA will be a good platform when its ready , that would take another minimum 5 ~ 8 years.

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Postby Arun_S » 03 Feb 2008 22:47

Austin wrote:Too bad , so DRDO doesn't have a lawyer , who can review their whole patent application process ?

If the LRDE work revels every thing , isnt that itself a risk as it gives a good idea how things work ?


Malay MTA will be a good platform when its ready , that would take another minimum 5 ~ 8 years.


As read the patent, the same thought ran over me, because it clearly told me the ECM envelope that enemy has to make/procure to counter the radar based on that Tx/Rx design.

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Re: AWACS back on runway

Postby sunilUpa » 03 Feb 2008 22:53

Arun_S wrote:All the innovative original work of LRDE went to toliet because that patent reveals full design information and its claims section is very specific, one that prevents some one from making an exact copy of the TR module, but leaves open simple variations that anyone who has been through a US patent process would have obviously covered, as belonging to the patent claim.


Arun Ji, why DRDO is not using CSIR's patent cell in Pune? They are good, and they handle all CSIR applications. They used to conduct numerous workshops on patents and train us. This is surprising.

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Postby Singha » 03 Feb 2008 22:58

Panda and Bear will be most glad to read what they can off the patent and use that. so will EU and Massa.

who is going to verify patent violations inside a new E10 or PinkDragon ?

unless they hope to make civilian form of it...they have no background and
financial muscle for that.

so why didnt they just keep it a secret ? we havent patented our TN design...

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 03 Feb 2008 23:06

On average Govt lawyer's are paid around 0.1% to 1% of private corporate lawyers. And No ! I did not get the decimal place wrong.

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Re: AWACS back on runway

Postby JCage » 03 Feb 2008 23:10

Gents, a different Tx/Rx module is probably used for the L Band LRTR and another derivative of the L Band one for the S Band MFCR. The newer ones could be based on the original one though.

CABS module is a new one, and different from the above S Band one as well. Someone write them and inform them of the objections raised above and be sufficiently severe.

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Re: AWACS back on runway

Postby JCage » 03 Feb 2008 23:14

[quote="sunilUpa"]AWACS back on runway

KOCHI: Nearly a decade after its dreams of flying an indigenous Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) crashed, the vroom of a breakthrough has announced the return of this prestigious programme of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

[quote]The Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), Bangalore, has developed an Indian transmitter/ receiver module that will form the nerve of the system. It’s an array of a number of T/R (transmit/receive) modules that make up the AWACS' nervous system making it capable of rummaging through all electronic movements in a radius of hundreds of kilometers.

[b]Top CABS sources told this website's newspaper that India would soon patent its T/R module as “it’s unique in many respects.â€

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Postby Neshant » 04 Feb 2008 10:38

> Panda and Bear will be most glad to read what they can off the patent
> and use that

Maybe its a bogus patent? File nonsense just to throw others off track.

I remember watching a documentary on the concord where the french claimed a soviet spy was trying to steal their design information.

So the french scientist randomly cooked up some resin, put it in a jar and handed it to the eager Soviet spy telling him it was an integral component of the plane's structure.

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Postby Singha » 04 Feb 2008 11:25

would be the case if BR psyops directorate were in charge.

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Postby derkonig » 04 Feb 2008 12:29

Singha wrote:would be the case if BR psyops directorate were in charge.


wud that be the first chief directorate?

in heavy russian accent...
Nobody leaves the BRF....

/From a view to a kill....

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Postby karan_mc » 04 Feb 2008 13:52

i don't know if this image has been posted here earlier ,just found IL-76 Based AWACS for india
Image

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Postby KBDagha » 07 Feb 2008 18:41

Just saw a program on DD called "Nayi Disha" (New Direction). Some interesting details were shown in the program:

* Relatime mock model was shown for embraer AWEC. This helps them in simulation, design and positioning the consoles etc..
* Electronic model for embraer AWEC was shown.
* There are 5 consoles in the plane. This consoles give radar display and also other realtime data. This consoles were also shown. They are in front of the plane. Rear of this plane contained 6-8 seats for the crew.
* Other electronic warfare stuff like MAWS, RWR Tarang, Sangrah, IED jammer, fly catcher radar were also shown.
* Igla missile simiulator was also shown.
* Mig-27 with EW stuff was also shown.
* Old version (40-45ton) of Arjun tank was also shown firing.

Thats all i can remeber. Sorry could not get video :(

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Postby sum » 07 Feb 2008 20:42

Just saw a program on DD called "Nayi Disha" (New Direction).

What time did it come??Any repeat telecast?
Was it on DD news?? There is a defence programme called "Nayi Disha"??
I was only aware of "War and Peace" and "defence watch" on DD News... :-?

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Postby KBDagha » 08 Feb 2008 14:00

Its the show on science and technology. It was yesterday at 7.30pm. Its the same show which recently showed Arjun Tank which JCage was talking about! Video of arjun tank is on yahoo videos.

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Postby RonyKJ » 13 Feb 2008 21:19

Filing a patent would be a stupid thing to do. It just makes it so easy for some one else to build an exactly similar system for themselves. As long as they don't commercially sell it, they wouldn't even be violating the patent. If you really come up with something new, especially in the defence field, the best thing to do is to just keep it under wraps. Don't publish papers on it or file for patents.

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Postby disha » 13 Feb 2008 21:39

RonyKJ wrote:Filing a patent would be a stupid thing to do. It just makes it so easy for some one else to build an exactly similar system for themselves. As long as they don't commercially sell it, they wouldn't even be violating the patent. If you really come up with something new, especially in the defence field, the best thing to do is to just keep it under wraps. Don't publish papers on it or file for patents.


One can still file a patent without disclosing the details publicly, only the patent office will know the details. So technically that will take care of your assertion.

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Postby sunilUpa » 13 Feb 2008 21:51

disha wrote:
RonyKJ wrote:Filing a patent would be a stupid thing to do. It just makes it so easy for some one else to build an exactly similar system for themselves. As long as they don't commercially sell it, they wouldn't even be violating the patent. If you really come up with something new, especially in the defence field, the best thing to do is to just keep it under wraps. Don't publish papers on it or file for patents.


One can still file a patent without disclosing the details publicly, only the patent office will know the details. So technically that will take care of your assertion.


Hmmm IMVHO not possible. Whatever you give to patent office (including the correspondence) is public document. We routinely obtain complete prosecution history from the patent office, which includes all documents pertaining to the patent and device our strategy based on Estoppel.

Idea is not to give exact details, but just dance around the precise innovation!

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Postby JCage » 14 Feb 2008 01:22

The Tx/ Rx module under question is this one.

Arun's uploaded pic/ Link

BTW Why dont some of you (justifiably imho) concerned folk draft a letter to DRDO or CABs- Lrde contact email is on DRDOs website, and point out the issues about being too open with patent info? They'll appreciate it, and at the very least you would have done your bit.

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Postby Katare » 14 Feb 2008 19:42

When you invent something you have two choices either keep it as a trade secrete and hopefully no one would ever know about it (if some one else invents it independently they can use, sell and even restrict you from using it even if you have well documented "reduction to practice" proof at earlier date) other option is to disclose it legally i.e. patent it. Now everyone would know about it but you would have legal protection. I think DRDO made a decision that the invention is something that would be discovered by others in the near future so the best course of action would be to patent it.

All major defense companies file 100s of patents each year. Infect basic research and concepts should usually be patented what you should protect is experimental data and fabrication processes. That part is the real juice, basic knowledge is freely available in most parts and concepts can be developed/found by other on a later date.

More you disclose in a patent more protection you have, usually a set of patents are filed together to capture adjacent IP real-estate. You can't make a working system by reading patents although it does give out some idea about technology (not product). So if anything DRDO should have filed multiple supporting patents.

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Postby rad » 19 Feb 2008 10:33

Its nice to hear that the CABS people have made a tx/rx module that is unique .
But it is deffinately not nice to hear tham say that they will have an AWACS in the near future . WHy do these guys keep shooting their mouths of everytime . Its very embarassing and misleading to the public and the nation and down right depressing when they dont perform and give excuses.
From what i gather that has been said , a rotodome is going to be used on an embraer platform.This combination has never been used and entails alot of risky flight testing .We know what happened to the awacs that crashed . The il 76 platform with a rotodome is a proven platform that was tested bythe russians decades ago so that is not a problem . The EMB 145 does not have the range and height perfomance for an awacs . Thats the reason t he Israeli `s chose the G-550 with a conformal antenna on the sides and antennas on the tail and nose .It can cruise around 50,000 ft . Are the CABS guys trying to reinvent the wheel?.
The best soluton would be to go the Israeli way . trying to make an awacs with a 300km detection rang is just a joke and a waste of taxpayers money.

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Postby NRao » 19 Feb 2008 11:05

IIRC, the EMB-145 solution was to have the Eyerie config. Not a rotodom.

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Postby rad » 19 Feb 2008 11:30

sorry i mistook the radome for a rotodome .

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Postby JCage » 19 Feb 2008 12:45

rad wrote:Its nice to hear that the CABS people have made a tx/rx module that is unique .
But it is deffinately not nice to hear tham say that they will have an AWACS in the near future . WHy do these guys keep shooting their mouths of everytime . Its very embarassing and misleading to the public and the nation and down right depressing when they dont perform and give excuses.


Heres a wake up call- there is a project to make an AWACs- 3 of them, and yes, they are due in the next few years, ie near future. Hold them accountable if they mess up, but dont write them off because they had the guts to aim high and be public about their aims.
Before the AEW&C crash, a CABS team of a handful of folks had managed detection distances > 100 km and the ability to track upto 50 targets, which by itself was a huge achievement at the time.


From what i gather that has been said , a rotodome is going to be used on an embraer platform.This combination has never been used and entails alot of risky flight testing .We know what happened to the awacs that crashed .


Incorrect.

The il 76 platform with a rotodome is a proven platform that was tested bythe russians decades ago so that is not a problem .


Not with an AESA system in it.

The EMB 145 does not have the range and height perfomance for an awacs . Thats the reason t he Israeli `s chose the G-550 with a conformal antenna on the sides and antennas on the tail and nose .It can cruise around 50,000 ft . Are the CABS guys trying to reinvent the wheel?.


Israel went for that option because it has retired all other AWACs and its range performance is unknown. CABS AEW&C is the first step to building a larger AWACs, and is per the specifications of the IAF.

The best soluton would be to go the Israeli way . trying to make an awacs with a 300km detection rang is just a joke and a waste of taxpayers money.


A 300 km detection range against a low RCS target is quite credible, and will be double the performance of most fighters in the IAFs inventory, and equal to the performance of high powered ground based radars. Furthermore, it will be able to scan at much larger angles.

Please research the subject more before making such comments.

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Postby k prasad » 19 Feb 2008 13:03

I've added some pictures of the AEW&CS radar mockup. Hopefully, that should answer some questions. you can see the images at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/sets/72157603941498395/

Sorry for the low quality.

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Postby JCage » 19 Feb 2008 23:59

k prasad wrote:I've added some pictures of the AEW&CS radar mockup. Hopefully, that should answer some questions. you can see the images at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/sets/72157603941498395/

Sorry for the low quality.


Thanks for the pics, they are great and the antenna detailed config especially,

Are these pics from Defexpo? Also, are you sure the S Band Tx Rx module is for the AEW&C?

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Postby Ananth » 20 Feb 2008 00:30

k prasad wrote:I've added some pictures of the AEW&CS radar mockup. Hopefully, that should answer some questions. you can see the images at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/sets/72157603941498395/

Sorry for the low quality.


Can you ping Rakesh or Jagan and so that BR can archieve those pics.

TIA

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Postby k prasad » 20 Feb 2008 00:56

The pics are from IRSI. As for the S-band, IIRC, they will be on the AWACS, for IFF (thats what the person at the stall told me). But please cross check this info, since I'm not sure about it.

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Postby JCage » 20 Feb 2008 01:22

Are there any figures for the number of targets tracked etc for the AWACS?

Also, any news from IRSI or any more pics of local radar development?

The main antenna array on the AWACs is S Band indeed, but there are quite similar modules for the MFCR developed for the BMD system and which are also ready, and usually marked LRDE. Hence my query. IFF for the AWACs is going to be a brand new system for which DRDO was evaluating a worldwide tieup to tie a core crypto equipment to their locally developed transmitter (plus the all important software will be done inhouse), it would also tie it in with the IAF plan to introduce new gen IFF for its entire ADGES and fleet.

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Postby maitya » 20 Feb 2008 02:02

So, +/- 60 deg beam steering - it would be interesting to know the tracking ranges at those angles. 8)

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Postby k prasad » 20 Feb 2008 02:29

Hmm... what was interesting was the sheer number of indian Pvt cos involved in mfring subsystems for radars and comm. systems. I think this is partly due to the level of support that LRDE has given to these companies.

Also, WLR will complete its final user trials in May, after which it will be accepted, all things going well. There was a whole lot of backthumping about AAD.

As for the BFSR, 1170 units have been ordered by the Army. They're very happy with them.


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