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Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

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Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2007 01:41

Last Page of Previous Thread

Basics of turbofan engines

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Postby mandrake » 14 Aug 2007 21:32

Can Moderator archive previous Kaveri thread please! It has LOTS of good information.

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Postby gopal.suri » 15 Aug 2007 17:24

Error 404 - Performance Not Found

When I saw it first, I thought the page was showing error. :lol:

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Postby sunilUpa » 15 Aug 2007 17:43

gopal.suri wrote:Error 404 - Performance Not Found

When I saw it first, I thought the page was showing error. :lol:


Aha.. :idea:

Parallel to the tests in Arakkonam, the representatives from US had given a briefing to the Indian Air Force, pitching GE- F 414 engines for LCA. The offer also included redesigning the LCA Tejas to accommodate the GE- F 414. However it was felt that this offer defies the very Air Staff requirement (ASR) for the light weight, small aircraft. GE- F 414 is a bigger and heavier engine, LCA dimensions will drastically change and it will push back LCA development for at least 3-5 years. Also the past experience dealing with US on LCA weighed heavy on the Indian minds. This time US decides not to cooperate midway, the Tejas project will be non recoverable.



Lifafas are being pushed hard and fast...

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Postby Willy » 20 Aug 2007 13:45

Any news at all on whats happening with the JVA for the kaveri? What happened after the RFP? :roll:

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Postby Singha » 20 Aug 2007 14:59

The Gripen2 will have a 414.

the 414IN20 _is_ the JVA for the Kaveri :)

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Postby Willy » 20 Aug 2007 16:14

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Postby SaiK » 21 Aug 2007 00:52

:rotfl: ...

again, one should also look at GTRE.. they need to perform miracles too.

and, you may get to read:-

GTRE seeks $2 billion for Kaveri-NG to fire Tejas/N.


as against,

GTRE management reorganized.. ISRO to take over Kaveri development


btw, need to talia news media folks for such a headline.. I never clicked on the link to check, since I thought the link error was displayed.

Error 404 - Performance Not Found

:twisted:

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Postby Drevin » 23 Aug 2007 15:17

hehe nice one Saik :)

By the way how does one make a flat-rated engine ... is it from the combination of low and high bypass sections? Some guru can clarify this?

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Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2007 16:01

searching for the term "flat rated" I only find references to kaveri among
fighter engines. other names that come up are dornier, pilatus, falcon,
helicopters and civilian aircraft. onlee military I am able to find are
General Electric TF34-GE-101 on A-10 warthog.

idea seem to mean constraining a high power engine to a lower power in
normal operation so that in hot or high conditions the extra power margin
enables it to maintain the desired flying profile.

in that sense if LCA can meet its goal at 20,000lb thrust, fixing a 22000lb
414 is also flat rating as will shoehorning a 35000lb F119 engine.

GE IN20 if it is able to make the LCA meet targets for sea level high temp
operation without extra margin wont be flat rating, I suppose another
2-3000lb of addl thrust engine would be needed for that.

this flat rating of Kaveri is a pipe dream at the moment. if it can churn
out 18000lb reheat and remain stable enough to enter service that will
be a massive achievement.

later on a larger engine and larger air intake can make it flat rated.

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Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2007 16:05

twin engined fighter which enjoy lot of T:W advantage like F-15C and EF
are inherently flat rated. for heavier beasts like MKI or F-15E it would be
marginal. Rafale has a weak engine because the frenchies decided to
sacrifice raw thrust for reliability and small size. but in A2A it should be ok.

F22 is a in a separate league with starter kit of 70,000lb thrust for a 22t
plane. and I am sure another 10,000lb improvement is possible in future
iterations.

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Postby gopal.suri » 23 Aug 2007 16:19

Please do not create a non existing problem. Kaveri problem is just the reheat and metallurgy. otherwise, you can expect it in Bagula Bhagat Media (BBM) screaming it in headlines.

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Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2007 16:23

well they were the ones who shouted flat-rated for a decade+ now. it is
duly copied in all webpages related to LCA and people think its some big
new advance in turbofan design.

a CFM56 welded to LCA would give it ample flat rating.

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Postby gopal.suri » 23 Aug 2007 16:35

Will it be indigenous then?

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Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2007 18:30

akramas, your best bet would be a comment from "vina" (sorry lazy to browse back to get the correct avatar).. and remember, P&W said, they would give a green ticket for Kaveri on their terms.. meaning, will share 51-49% deal at their end.. sope, Kaveri if rectified by PW, would auto-magically become "Fantastic One" and a benchmark for all future flat rated engines.

At 85% efficiency? (performance level, I guess), its hard to expect Kaveri to support that flat-rated ness, especially to turbofan up the engine to get that extra thrust at zero MSL.

I think at GTRE people (strategic people at the index of their triangle), must be thinking hard to really work hard, put extra people and consultants locally from other reputed firms to fix the problem and pull through or put a full stop and asking for pirangs to complete the job.

imho, PW was the ideal candidate .. but I think they are too capitalists to look at.. I 'm saying, so are the Saturn and Snecma.. both are chewers of a different kind. Snecma is jumping the gun, and changing many stratergies, since PW made a big news about Kaveri.

Lets hope K10 gives us the expected performance.. whatever that is going into, SC blades, redesign of the blade shapes and angle or curvature, minimizing compression leaks, and increasing the tornado inside.. There are certain features that Kilmov can help us leap frog in combustion and plasma works.. GTRE need to two inputs or study more of the AL31fp, RD33MK, EF2000 engine and M88-3 for many inputs... while pick one to help.

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Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2007 18:36


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Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2007 19:09

P&W has completely lost the civilian jet engine market to CFM and RR over
the last 15 yrs. Mil engines is their sole bread and butter now. they are
surely a weaker party financially than GE...but they won both the F22
and JSF with F119 and F135 so military side they are all set.

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Postby mandrake » 29 Aug 2007 02:29

Moderators is it possible to archive the previous kaveri thread? dont you guys think it has lots of good informations? The thread started in sept 2006, It has lots of informations! IMHO.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... c&&start=0

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 29 Aug 2007 09:15

I think that collaboration with P&W can be good idea as they don't have an engine in the category of Kaveri - F404.

Another compay we can tap is MTU as they have rich knowledge of turbines but don't make anything in this category.


I think that P&W is trying to get back into civilian field with new type ofengines with JV with MTU, I wonder if India can join it?

Also P&W 6000 has not been successful and India can perhaps go in for collaboration to upgrade it and use if for MTA and enter Civilian market with an expericenced partner like P&W

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Postby ajay_hk » 02 Sep 2007 08:32

Apologies if its a repost. But some nice details in this report.

Kaveri engine project: French, Russian firms in race
Saturday August 25 2007 08:42 IST
BANGALORE: To cut any further delays in the development of Kaveri aero engine, which will power the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is all to set partner with an engine manufacturer from abroad.

DRDO top brass are evaluating proposals from Snecma, a French company, and Russian firm Saturn that have come forward to assist the Bangalore-based DRDO lab, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), to take the project forward.

‘‘Within a month we will complete technical evaluation of the proposals and we could start negotiations with them early next month,’’ Dr D Banerjee, Chief Controller R&D (AMS) told this website’s newspaper on Friday.

The deal is likely to be signed by year-end and the first engine would fly four years after that. The joint venture can give a major thrust to the combat aircraft engine project, which has suffered major time overruns.

The project started in 1980. The engine is 10 per cent overweight compared to the original design and is currently undergoing high altitude tests in Russia. ‘‘We need to accelerate the project,’’ the officer said.

Kaveri engines will replace the GE 404 engines, which are currently being used in LCA. As per the earlier schedule, the indigenously designed and developed engine was supposed to be ready by the time LCA gets initial operational clearance.

Turbine and compressor, which are the most critical components of the engine are the problem areas for the DRDO, which has done well in developing parts like fuselage and afterburner.

‘‘The JV would be on lead assist principle. Experts from both sides will work together and in some components they will lead and we will assist and in some other component they will assist us,’’ Banerjee said.

According to the chief controller the, foreign firms are interested in the project as there is a good market for Kaveri engines. ‘‘We are looking for around 200 to 300,’’ he said.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) are fully involved in the entire process. While HAL will be manufacturing the engine, the IAF will be end-user of the product -- Kaveri engine fitted onto the LCA.

‘‘At the end of the project we will have design knowledge and we can even upgrade it,’’ Banerjee added. Once the project becomes a reality, India will join an elite league of countries which manufacture aero engines.

If I read the report properly and compare it to the another JV that is coming up (ELTA's tie up for MMR), this one seems to be a bit different. Agree these are two different projects with no commonality whatsoever, but the basic difficulties faced (lack of exp, time crunch et al wud make it worth comparing IMO). There ELTA would provide certain modules to solve A2G issues which of course speeds up the project eventually indigenizing it later, whereas here, SNECMA/Saturn would share thier expertise in solving critical issues faced (may be re-design/design optimisation)....this is probably what they mean... when they say even after this JV the project would be 100% Indian.

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Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2007 08:55

I think we can safely assume Kaveri will not enter service in the Tejas fleet except for testing. after kitting up 60 or Tejas with IN20, it will be too complex for IAF to maintain another type...we are not Massa who runs parallel GE and PW streams on F-16
and F-15, we dont have the numbers for it.

so Kaveri might see a role in the next aircraft . It must be completed and qualified
AT ALL COSTS ofcourse.

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Postby kuldipchager » 02 Sep 2007 09:12

As we getting Mig 29K.Then We shuold USE Mig29K'S Engine In Navy's

Version of TEJAS,Which is already Tested.

Why we don't bring old HF 24,Re-engine,KAVERI which is underpower for

TEJAS,But will have power for HF-24 t0 Fly MACH 2.OR Call HF 2000

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Postby kuldipchager » 02 Sep 2007 09:12

As we getting Mig 29K.Then We shuold USE Mig29K'S Engine In Navy's

Version of TEJAS,Which is already Tested.

Why we don't bring old HF 24,Re-engine,KAVERI which is underpower for

TEJAS,But will have power for HF-24 t0 Fly MACH 2.OR Call HF 2000

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Postby ajay_hk » 02 Sep 2007 09:25

Singha wrote:I think we can safely assume Kaveri will not enter service in the Tejas fleet except for testing. after kitting up 60 or Tejas with IN20, it will be too complex for IAF to maintain another type...we are not Massa who runs parallel GE and PW streams on F-16
and F-15, we dont have the numbers for it. so Kaveri might see a role in the next aircraft

Sorry Singha saab, I beg to disagree here just for the fact that the # of LCAs being inducted into LCA is running into hundreds, possibly more in the future. I think you've raised a good point saar... but i sure hope u are wrong.. the 40 IN20s cud well be white lemons - coz it comes from massa land - I'm pretty sure IAF/ones in the decision making have thought abt this. If the requirement of 240 LCAs for IAF and IN are true and really happens (if this isnt the case...JVs being started, just dosent make sense IMHO) - then I dont see the reason of why Kaveri will have a bleak future or wud act just as testbed. Being a "operational" testbed - yeah sure - that wud make more sense.

Singha wrote:. It must be completed and qualified
AT ALL COSTS ofcourse.

AMEN to that.

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Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2007 09:54

kuldipchager wrote:As we getting Mig 29K.Then We shuold USE Mig29K'S Engine In Navy's

Version of TEJAS,Which is already Tested.

Why we don't bring old HF 24,Re-engine,KAVERI which is underpower for

TEJAS,But will have power for HF-24 t0 Fly MACH 2.OR Call HF 2000


With respect - I believe you and I have similar qualities. I know nothing about engineering and even less about modern aircraft design, testing and safety.

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Postby vinayak_d » 02 Sep 2007 09:55

Very diplomatic shiv ji :twisted:

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Postby merlin » 02 Sep 2007 10:26

In today's print edition of The New Sunday Express there is an article titled "ADA plans supersonic fighter trainer". Towards the end of the article there is a short bit about the Kaveri. It states that the GTRE director T. Mohana Rao said that his scientists were struggling to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 1050 kgs. as required by ADA for the Tejas. Of the nine engine prototypes, the first three weighed 1432 kgs., the fourth to the eighth weighed 1235 kgs. while the ninth weighed 1101.1 kgs.

So just 51.1 kgs. off the target weight. Not bad if accurate.

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Postby arun » 02 Sep 2007 10:41

The excerpt :

Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohana Rao, in his presentation said his scientists were struggling to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 1,050 Kgs as required by ADA for the LCA Tejas.

Rao said of the nine engine prototypes, the first three weighed 1,432 Kgs, the fourth to eighth weighed 1,235 Kgs while the ninth weighed 1.101.1 Kgs.


From Here :

ADA plans supersonic fighter trainer

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Postby arun » 02 Sep 2007 10:47

Contract signing in December :

Centre shortlists foreign firms for aircraft engine production

Statesman News Service

BANGALORE, Sept. 1: The Union government has short listed two foreign companies, Snecma and Saturn, for joint design and production of the controversial Kaveri engine for the Light Combat Aircraft .The proposed joint venture is expected to be set up in association with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The government hopes to finalise the joint venture partner after evaluating the proposals sent by Snecma and Saturn before the end of the year. The target date for the first engine test has been fixed four years from the date of signing the contract. The selected partner would be required to pump in his part of the money by way of components though the exact quantum has not yet been worked out.

According to Dr D Banerjee, chief controller, DRDO, about 300 such engines are expected to be designed and produced under the proposed joint venture, to be set up in the country.

While Snecma is the subsidiary of the Safran group of France, NPO Saturn is a Russian company. Even though the two are competing with partner HAL to design and manufacture the Kaveri engine, they have also joined hands abroad in other projects.

The indigenous engine was originally planned to fly the LCA which is under various stages of testing and currently uses a GE engine. A decade long attempt to develop the engine has proved abortive so far, even though several crores of rupees and man hours have gone into it.

The government, particularly the DRDO has been receiving a lot of flak for the delay and the inability to get the indigenous engine going. Consequently, it is now moving fast to finalise an agreement with one of the two interested parties with hopes of signing it by December this year.

Dr Banerjee said that both Snecma and Saturn were reputed companies and had offered similar solutions to match the requirements for the development and designing of the engine.

Hopefully, he said, the technical evaluations would be over next month with the negotiations starting after that. The way the contract is being figured, the engine dimensions would have to match the fuselage.

The selected joint venture partner, he said, would have to transfer the design knowledge to the country and not merely the manufacturing process. More so as possibilities of upgrades could not be ruled out.

Similarly, technology transfer of components brought by the selected joint venture partner would be part of the arrangement.

Responding to queries, he said that the Indian market was extremely lucrative for foreign players which is why Snecma and Saturn were very keen to join hands with Indian firms. Both perceive a growing market in India to match their capabilities and expertise.

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Postby ajay_hk » 02 Sep 2007 11:01

Air breathing engines and Aerospace Propulsion - Proceedings of NCABE 2004 - 05-07 November 2004: Organised by IIT Kanpur

This is an online book at books.google.com. Amazing content on Kaveri - a collection of various papers inlcuding info on Combusters, controls, compressors, design process, flow and heat transfer, manufacturing, advanced materials being developed for the Kaveri program, fatigue structure evaluations of Kaveri et al. A very comprehensive presentation of 601 pages :eek: :shock:

Also has info on Scramjets 8)

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 02 Sep 2007 11:12

arun wrote:The excerpt :

Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohana Rao, in his presentation said his scientists were struggling to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 1,050 Kgs as required by ADA for the LCA Tejas.

Rao said of the nine engine prototypes, the first three weighed 1,432 Kgs, the fourth to eighth weighed 1,235 Kgs while the ninth weighed 1.101.1 Kgs.


From Here :

ADA plans supersonic fighter trainer



This last engine may be one called k-9 which is intended to fly on LCA-PV for flight testing. The production variant is intended to be K-10 which may be more lighter and powerful, I think that even this engine is under advanced stage of (design? - assembly?). If a foreign JV is entered into then the engine may even become more lighter and powerful. i expect something like 900kg engine with dry thrust of 60kn and wet of 100kn from the JV. But the practical date of this engine flying squadron strength in LCA should be around 2015-17

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Postby mandrake » 02 Sep 2007 18:13

raj malhotra this is not a JV but a partner will be bought to fix certain aspects of the engine, what you said a weight of 900 kg if happened would be great but i doubt it will happen, we need something quick, I think we need better turbine casting technologies to reduce weight which will inturn increase number or turbines which will give us desired TET as well.

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Postby ajay_hk » 03 Sep 2007 02:58

Not sure if this has been posted here - but this is a video of Kaveri engine taken during AI 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLZTymne1NY

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Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2007 09:49

a derated kaveri without afterburner but with stealthy long exhaust cooled by bypass airflow should be launched parallel to MCA (afterburner version) on a Indo-Israeli-Rus strike UCAV JV.
top speed around 700kmph, terrain following radar, internal bay.
controlled from the ground, autonomously programmed or from two seat fighters WSO station would be a useful tool for high threat DPSA missions.

A smaller highly stealthy UCAV with high ceiling of 65000ft using AL-55 and
4 internal AAMs of AA-12 size should be developed for ambush tactics
deep behind enemy airspace.

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Postby bala » 15 Oct 2007 06:36

Kaveri engine for Tejas: more talks on French, Russian offers

The divergent views prevailing over who will help the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in co-developing India’s first combat aircraft engine Kaveri have forced the Technical Advisory Committee (TAC), which is evaluating the two overseas offers, to call for yet another round of discussions between the main protagonists.

Another meeting among key officials from the GTRE, the Indian Air Force and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is expected to be held next week, will hopefully enable the TAC to make up its mind on who — between the French aerospace company Snecma and Russia’s NPO Saturn — will join the GTRE in developing the engine. One of India’s most crucial aeronautical programmes, Kaveri is expected to power the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Around 300 engines are scheduled to be manufactured.

DRDO sources told The Hindu that the proposal of the Snecma and Russia had been thoroughly evaluated and both were found to be meeting on “most parameters of the GTRE’s requirements.â€

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Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2007 09:52

like the mrca split, dont tell me we are split on kaveri as well.. man if it were to be a genuine kerala actress, it does not mean any say.. rambha would would have to dance now... pakfa and things are all russians, besides, we have heavily invested production engineering and product development of RDs(93) and AL(55, 30FP) engines already from russia in tonnes.

I agree with DRDO, and it is they who have to choose and not HAL, imho. This HAL-Ruskie link has become a covalent bond.

Vote for Snecma, vote for snecma, vote for snecma...

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Postby Austin » 15 Oct 2007 10:12

Agreed if Snecma is offering better Technology and considering they have engine of roughly similar type and technical characteristics which powers the Rafale and what Kaveri should be , then we should opt for them.

Who knows one day Kaveri might power the Indian Rafale if it bags the MMRCA contract , Making Logistics cheaper and easier.

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Postby JCage » 15 Oct 2007 18:28

The IAF, who will be the Kaveri’s primary and probably only customer, has been largely reticent on this issue.


Sirlog, at this point dont be reticent, take charge!! And dont blame everyone else later. :shock:

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Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2007 19:09

They would not perhaps come out openly and say things, since they are not stakeholders from all respect., especially when they have not realized they are moving from buyer concept to being the stakeholder.

Did our govt got IAF understood, as to why Kaveri is very important, and how much they have to invest and interest the product to grow up? I agree with Austin, that we need that Rafales with Kaveri onleee.

Even the IN can be satisfied with Rafale Ms, with K/n. Its all now a fist full of thrust more. I am sure snecma can provide us that extra thrust, by redesigning of the blades or reshaping them, and/or the construction of the compressor chamber,.. I hope, they don't recommend a M88x as K2., and become fools to give the order to russians.

Again, I am thinking we should do this all by ourselves.. for we may not know that some light be thrown by some yuppie, and we get to scramjetting our LCA into the future. We lack to see our own potential by considering what is out there already is the best. We are giving up easily on this core issue is what makes me hang my head half way thru.

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Postby Vivek K » 15 Oct 2007 19:17

While the selection of a foreign partner is going through this tamasha, is GTRE sitting on its butt with staff twiddling their thumbs and enjoying Chai-biscoot? Have they given up on meeting design parameters?


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