Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2011 23:05

So whats the point of making it a turbo fan if it doesn't give lower sfc? Maybe its tech demo unit.

Laghu Shakti = Small Shakti

Is there a big Shakti? Or is this a prototype for such an engine?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby GeorgeM » 16 Feb 2011 23:06

merlin wrote:
Sagar G wrote:
Interesting thing written on the gold plate fitted on the blisk display "BLISK MACHINING TECHNOLOGY A FIRST STEP AT GTRE". Looks like we are finally overcoming the hurdles in the high end aeroengine material manufacturing section.


Not yet.

1. Those Blisks are for small engines, not for something like a Kaveri.
2. Currently Kaveri uses directionally solidified turbine blades from Snecma
3. Directionally solidified turbine blades from DMRL are undergoing certification. Only after being successfully certified is there any chance to put it into Kaveri
4. Single crystal blades - DMRL can produce lab quantities, say upto 5 sets. Those need to be certified, but that can only come after the DS blades are certified. So long way to go here.

Net, a very long way to go to get somewhere on the materials front.



The display only says BLISK MACHINING TECHNOLOGY A FIRST STEP AT GTRE. It does not include casting and heat-treat part. Machining Blisk is indeed a process technology hurdle. It would seem to me that one has to make sure to keep the heat at the tool/work piece interface low otherwise there will be phase changes in those locations leading to grain boundary formation. This will defeat the pupose of single crystal I believe. Indeed a pretty complex issue. One among the several technology hurdles we have to overcome on the way to a truly indigenous Blisk. Congrats to GTRE

Also Merlin mentioned a slow rate of 'production' at the lab. The SC process is inherently very slow. Cannot allow multiple nucleus formations, which will lead to mutli grain boundaries. So slow and controlled cooling. Seems like one solution is to increase the number of stations :roll:

disclaimer - these are just my opinions purely based on my experience and knowledge. The above statement could either be swiss cheese or wisconsin cheese.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2011 00:03

Kanson wrote:Somehow this pic tells me, we already started adopting Snecma technology or getting guidance from Snecma in designing & maturing our Kaveri engine.

Just curious to know. How?!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2011 00:05

Exhaust temp?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2011 08:01

indranilroy wrote:
Kanson wrote:Somehow this pic tells me, we already started adopting Snecma technology or getting guidance from Snecma in designing & maturing our Kaveri engine.

Just curious to know. How?!


Use of CMC for exhaust nozzle(Check the pic from my previous post). Snecma is the pioneer in using CMC for exhaust nozzle. GE and other majors are learning the ropes only recently.

GE plans to introduce CMC for LPT section in the core but from the slides exhibited in Livefist blog, we are working with MMC (Titanium Alluminide - SiC) even for compressor section and one may recall DRML pics of casted Alumina Ceramic BLISK that came in 90s. However, we are not still forthcoming on developments and achievements on Single Crystal and materials design for the hot section. In my assessment, we are working on cutting edge technologies and trying to close the gap in all areas and i believe we judiciously chosen Snecma as the partner for leapfrogging us to future engine material technologies.

Snecma CMC nozzle flaps for PW F100 engine.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123116097

Image

9/19/2008 - WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio -- AFRL engineers are working with industry partners to test the use of ceramic matrix composite (CMC) materials as divergent seals in F100-PW-229 gas turbine engine exhaust nozzles. Geared towards increasing part life, improving reliability, and reducing operating and maintenance costs, the research is focusing on SEPCARBINOX® A500, an advanced self-sealing CMC manufactured by French company Snecma Propulsion Solide (SPS). Thus far, the seals have performed extremely well, and a life-cycle cost analysis is under way to determine whether they should be introduced into the fleet as preferred spares.

CMCs are excellent candidates for replacing the nickel-based superalloys currently used in exhaust nozzle parts, primarily due to their capacity to withstand the high temperatures and severe operational environment for much longer periods of time with minimal changes in structural behavior.

In examining the feasibility of using the A500 seals on the divergent section of the exhaust nozzles, AFRL researchers are addressing a number of key Air Force issues--one of which involves the performance comparison of CMC parts in flight and during engine ground testing. SPS has developed a novel CMC that uses carbon fibers in a sequentially layered carbide matrix produced via chemical vapor infiltration. Because this resultant matrix is self-sealing, it helps protect the carbon fibers from oxidation. The fibers are woven in a multidimensional, ply-to-ply angle interlock pattern to reduce the chance of delamination.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 17 Feb 2011 11:10

ramana wrote:So whats the point of making it a turbo fan if it doesn't give lower sfc? Maybe its tech demo unit.

Laghu Shakti = Small Shakti

Is there a big Shakti? Or is this a prototype for such an engine?


I think my words were confusing. The Laghu Shakti turbofan has 15% lesser SFC and 5% greater thrust compared to the PTAE-7 turbojet. I don't know if that is enough advantage over the turbojet.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 17 Feb 2011 11:27

Is the schematic diagram about improving K-10 or the so called Snecma-Kaveri?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Feb 2011 11:31

^good question, if it so, then it has to be the eco core.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2011 11:51

Snecma M88-3 Eco Turbine inlet temperature is published as around 1800 deg but in the Kaveri schematic diagram turbine inlet temperature is mentioned as 2200 deg.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 17 Feb 2011 12:07

^^Also, the pressure drop across tubines appears to be too much..not sure whether this is the case with modern engines, as the compressor would suck up a lot of energy to a big increase the pressure rise across it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 17 Feb 2011 12:08

apart from less SFC, does a turbofan perform better at lower altitude vs turbojets? thats the kind of altitude our cruise missiles would adopt. and the SFC gap might only increase as our design matures and is tested.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2011 12:22

Thank you Kanson-ji

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 17 Feb 2011 12:29

>>>Snecma M88-3 Eco Turbine inlet temperature is published as around 1800 deg but in the Kaveri schematic diagram turbine inlet temperature is mentioned as 2200 deg.

One possibility is that 2200 is the temperature inside the combuster, which is then cooled using tertiary air to bring it down to a more manageable level, before entering the turbine blades

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2011 14:12

geeth wrote:>>>Snecma M88-3 Eco Turbine inlet temperature is published as around 1800 deg but in the Kaveri schematic diagram turbine inlet temperature is mentioned as 2200 deg.

One possibility is that 2200 is the temperature inside the combuster, which is then cooled using tertiary air to bring it down to a more manageable level, before entering the turbine blades


I don't think so. And not heard such thing.

At 2200 deg and with stated pressure ratio we are truly looking at thrust greater than 120 KN and depending upon the flow rate it could be greater than 130 KN. It very much augurs with the disposition of getting the highest rated GE F414 engine for the LCA which will be somewhere around 120 KN. But we may flat rate it at 100 KN, who knows.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 17 Feb 2011 15:20

I don't think so. And not heard such thing.


2.3 The casing and the liner

After the airflow has passed the di user, it is split up by the liner. One part of the airflow goes through the region between the liner and the casing. This region is called the annulus. Another part of the airflow enters the mixing chamber, where fuel is injected.
There are several reasons for splitting up the flow. First, the air-to-fuel should have the right value. If it is too high, the mixture will not ignite. Also, the velocity of the flow leaving the di user is still too high.The part of the flow that will be ignited has to be slowed down even further.

The liner is divided into three sections. There is a primary zone (PZ), a secondary/intermediate
zone (SZ/IZ) and a tertiary/dilution zone (TZ/DZ). The main function of the PZ is to provide enough time for the fuel to mix and combust. The goal of the SZ is to provide enough time to achieve full combustion. This significantly reduces bad reaction products like carbon monoxide CO and unburned hydrocarbons (UHC). Finally, the goal of the DZ is to reduce the temperature of the outlet stream, such that it is acceptable for the turbine.

http://www.aerostudents.com/files/gasTu ... hamber.pdf

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2011 15:29

^ Sir, you see such things for engines with FADEC ? and to drop temp from 2200 to 1800 ?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 17 Feb 2011 15:43

^ Sir, you see such things for engines with FADEC ?

Honestly, I can't make out the connection between FADEC & tertiary cooling.. How do you cool the hot gas from combustion chamber to match the TET?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Feb 2011 15:57

Do we have any information on the Thrust Rating of GE-414S6 engine for Tejas Mk2 ?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 17 Feb 2011 17:17

Kanson wrote:
geeth wrote:>>>Snecma M88-3 Eco Turbine inlet temperature is published as around 1800 deg but in the Kaveri schematic diagram turbine inlet temperature is mentioned as 2200 deg.

One possibility is that 2200 is the temperature inside the combuster, which is then cooled using tertiary air to bring it down to a more manageable level, before entering the turbine blades


I don't think so. And not heard such thing.

At 2200 deg and with stated pressure ratio we are truly looking at thrust greater than 120 KN and depending upon the flow rate it could be greater than 130 KN. :D It very much augurs with the disposition of getting the highest rated GE F414 engine for the LCA which will be somewhere around 120 KN. But we may flat rate it at 100 KN, who knows.


Aape mouth mein ghee shakkar or rum/whisky depending on your taste :twisted:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Feb 2011 18:38

The only thing now that can choke is the inlet then... or perhaps politics.

cool.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2011 19:35

geeth wrote:^ Sir, you see such things for engines with FADEC ?

Honestly, I can't make out the connection between FADEC & tertiary cooling.. How do you cool the hot gas from combustion chamber to match the TET?

I guess, i'm not replying you properly. Usual way of representation is TET(inlet temp) which is important for the calculation. What i do in combustion chamber and what temp i reaches there is of little importance to exhibit my engine performance. In a general presentation, the temp that is talked about is turbine inlet temp aka combustion chamber outlet temp and not core temp of combustion chamber(as the one you are suggesting as 2200 deg). So this 2200 deg temp represents turbine inlet temperature and not core temp of combustion chamber.

One of the function of secondary air in combustion chamber is to cool the gas/air before the entry into turbine section if its exceeds the TET. FADEC controls the combustion process so effectively that it reduces unwanted fuel consumption and so the excess heat. So we normally hear with FADEC engines, we save fuel and get more power.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 17 Feb 2011 21:47

Kanson wrote:
geeth wrote:^ Sir, you see such things for engines with FADEC ?

Honestly, I can't make out the connection between FADEC & tertiary cooling.. How do you cool the hot gas from combustion chamber to match the TET?

...
So this 2200 deg temp represents turbine inlet temperature and not core temp of combustion chamber.
...

Although I agree with what you say about TiT being the determining factor for a gas turbine engine performance, 2200deg temp can't be the TiT and is most probably the temperature attained in the combustor.

Besides the diagram in question, puts the unit as centigrade - and no turbine blade exists (yet) which can handle that high temperature (except maybe the ceramic ones, but then there are no military turbine engines that uses ceramic blades).

The highest TiT that I've heard of are for F119, which is what, IIRC, around 1550deg centigrade (~1823K).

Also 2200deg centigrade is very close to the stoichiometric temperature of "perfect" air-fuel mixture - which is what you'd expect if the combustor is designed and worked "perfectly", ensuring "non-smoky" engine etc.
If that kind of gas is allowed to flow to the turbine inlet without any cooling, it will simply melt. That is the reason about 2/3 of the compressor-generated "cold air" is bypassed the combustor and allowed to mix with this hot gas to bring it down the appropriate temperature that the materials of the turbine blades can handle.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Feb 2011 22:01

Saw a natgeo presentation of how rolls royce makes their sc blades, and how they mftr tiny holes in the direction of the air flow in the blade, through which air passes cooling the blades down at high temp. They said it was significant enough to consider air flow through these miniature holes in the blade to bring the temp down to about 20%? or so. Would that be thought off as well for k blades?

btw, can't we have the CMC material for the blades then? self healing!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 17 Feb 2011 22:09

I guess, i'm not replying you properly. Usual way of representation is TET(inlet temp) which is important for the calculation. What i do in combustion chamber and what temp i reaches there is of little importance to exhibit my engine performance. In a general presentation, the temp that is talked about is turbine inlet temp aka combustion chamber outlet temp and not core temp of combustion chamber(as the one you are suggesting as 2200 deg). So this 2200 deg temp represents turbine inlet temperature and not core temp of combustion chamber.


I had a second look at the schematic diagram and now I feel what I said before is correct. Please look at the graph shown above the cut-away view of the engine. 2200 is shown at the middle of the combustion chamber (at which point the tempeture is max). From there on, the gradient of the graph is negative till it reaches 800. At the point where the hot gas enters turbine, the temperature is between 2200 and 800. So, TET has to be below 2200.

One of the function of secondary air in combustion chamber is to cool the gas/air before the entry into turbine section if its exceeds the TET. FADEC controls the combustion process so effectively that it reduces unwanted fuel consumption and so the excess heat. So we normally hear with FADEC engines, we save fuel and get more power.


Fadec will do only fuel metering and hance improve SFC (Like the electronic ignition in a petrol engine). It cannot directly control the combustion process. Unwanted fuel consumption means unburnt fuel, and unburnt fuel will tend to decrease the temp of hot gas. Therefore it helps the combustion process indirectly, by sending the optimum amount of fuel, thereby reducing the wastage. For efficient combustion, the combustion chamber has to be designed efficiently. The temperature in the combustiion chamber is max when the fuel is completely burnt. This hot gas temp is reduced by mixing it with optimum amount of cooler air in tertiary zone. These things are the basis for any engine design and is decided at the preliminary design stage itself (with or without FADEC).

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2011 22:56

maitya wrote: Although I agree with what you say about TiT being the determining factor for a gas turbine engine performance, 2200deg temp can't be the TiT and is most probably the temperature attained in the combustor.

Besides the diagram in question, puts the unit as centigrade - and no turbine blade exists (yet) which can handle that high temperature (except maybe the ceramic ones, but then there are no military turbine engines that uses ceramic blades).
GE uses CMC for its F136 turbine rotor section and plans to use in GE F414 engine LPT section.

The highest TiT that I've heard of are for F119, which is what, IIRC, around 1550deg centigrade (~1823K).

Neither GE nor P&W publish their TiT. Hope you based your belief upon authentic material.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2011 23:06

geeth wrote:
I guess, i'm not replying you properly. Usual way of representation is TET(inlet temp) which is important for the calculation. What i do in combustion chamber and what temp i reaches there is of little importance to exhibit my engine performance. In a general presentation, the temp that is talked about is turbine inlet temp aka combustion chamber outlet temp and not core temp of combustion chamber(as the one you are suggesting as 2200 deg). So this 2200 deg temp represents turbine inlet temperature and not core temp of combustion chamber.


I had a second look at the schematic diagram and now I feel what I said before is correct. Please look at the graph shown above the cut-away view of the engine. 2200 is shown at the middle of the combustion chamber (at which point the tempeture is max). From there on, the gradient of the graph is negative till it reaches 800. At the point where the hot gas enters turbine, the temperature is between 2200 and 800. So, TET has to be below 2200.


I already guessed from where you are basing your arguments. :wink: You can take it as you see fit. But a better argument would be that temp are misquoted in Celsius, instead it should be in Kelvin.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 18 Feb 2011 00:50

Kanson wrote:
maitya wrote:
...
Besides the diagram in question, puts the unit as centigrade - and no turbine blade exists (yet) which can handle that high temperature (except maybe the ceramic ones, but then there are no military turbine engines that uses ceramic blades).
GE uses CMC for its F136 turbine rotor section and plans to use in GE F414 engine LPT section.

You are alluding to these links, I guess
General Electric primes CMC for turbine blades
New GE Engine Has Potential For Commercial Use

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gurneesh » 18 Feb 2011 01:06

Kanson wrote:
geeth wrote:I had a second look at the schematic diagram and now I feel what I said before is correct. Please look at the graph shown above the cut-away view of the engine. 2200 is shown at the middle of the combustion chamber (at which point the temperature is max). From there on, the gradient of the graph is negative till it reaches 800. At the point where the hot gas enters turbine, the temperature is between 2200 and 800. So, TET has to be below 2200.


I already guessed from where you are basing your arguments. :wink: You can take it as you see fit. But a better argument would be that temp are misquoted in Celsius, instead it should be in Kelvin.


In a gas turbine, the flame is kept as far from the blades as possible. 2200 Celsius must be the temperature of the flame front. After this the gases will cool a bit before entering the turbine.

This can be clearly seen by the pressure curve. The combustor starts at 620 cels. and continues till the pressure is constant.
As the hot gases enter the turbine, their pressure will drop significantly. So the turbine inlet is at a temperature lower than 2200 cels.

Plus kerosene has adiabatic flame temperature of around 2350 K @ 1atm. So the temperature might very well be in Celsius. Moreover, if the temperatures were in Kelvin then the compressor inlet would be negative celsius :eek:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 18 Feb 2011 09:36

Image

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 19 Feb 2011 06:22

http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/ ... ustor.html

GEnx TAPS Combustor--The Most Advanced Combustor in the Industry

With our innovative single-annular TAPS combustor, the GEnx is designed to be the cleanest-burning engine in its class. This combustor will far and away comply with all existing and expected regulations for NOx emissions -- positioning GEnx operators for clean compliance for many years to come.

Cleaner combustion requires technology that delivers high efficiency and lower, more uniform flame temperatures. This is achieved with our innovative pre-mixing concept. By directing nearly all of the airflow through unique swirlers and around nested fuel nozzles, we create ideal pre-mixed fuel/air environment. And because NOx production is strongly driven by combustion temperature, these emissions will be drastically reduced.

Additionally, because all of the combustion air enters through the dome and mixers, no dilution holes are required on the new liner. This in turn reduces distress, leading to longer liner life and reduced maintenance costs.

The lower and more uniform temperatures produced by this combustor have another benefit, as well. They significantly improve the lives of all downstream components.

This clean, easy-to-maintain combustor is one of the many innovations that will give GEnx customrs advantages unavailable to anyone else. Just image how we've improved the other parts of this amazing new engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Feb 2011 03:26

http://books.google.com/books?id=AXtqMu ... ne&f=false

So, it ain't from Snecma at all! CMC/PMC - PMR-15 class materials for nozzle and other parts.

Ref: Page 409/6. Futuristic program.


And, all the more reason to cancel the $2b waste on Snecma partnership.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 20 Feb 2011 18:46

Some kind gentleman has uploaded the specs of M88-4E from AI 2011 http://aeroindia2011pics.blogspot.com/

Image

Even for M88-4E, published TIT is 1577°C, same as M88-2 and thrust is the same 75 KN. How much more the core is going to entertain for the Snecma-kaveri for the raise to the advertised thrust of 95 KN?

Though not comparable on one to one basis, there is raise of 66°C in TIT for F414-EDE from the F414-400 to get 15% more thrust at the cost of 2% raise in SFC.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Feb 2011 19:05

Even if they raise it to 95kN, it would fall short of 414 IN specs of 105kN. So, it is a failure from the start. Must stop this Snecma deal.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Drishyaman » 20 Feb 2011 19:21

Kanson wrote:Somehow this pic tells me, we already started adopting Snecma technology or getting guidance from Snecma in designing & maturing our Kaveri engine.

Kanson ji, Is this assumption of yours wrong then, with the above last post of yours showing that M88 4E will have have a thrust of 75 kN? Sorry !! but you left me confused.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 20 Feb 2011 19:42

Drishyaman wrote:
Kanson wrote:Somehow this pic tells me, we already started adopting Snecma technology or getting guidance from Snecma in designing & maturing our Kaveri engine.

Kanson ji, Is this assumption of yours wrong then, with the above last post of yours showing that M88 4E will have have a thrust of 75 kN? Sorry !! but you left me confused.


As you probably know, M88-4E is the final iteration engine pack for Rafale. Dassault/Rafale seems to be happy with 75 KN engine. Improvements from M88-2 to M88-4E is advertised as reduction in TCO(Total cost of ownership). IOW, it extends the engine life and of less maintenance by using better material in the core which can either extend the engine life if it operates in lower temp to give 75KN or it gives nominal life at higher thrust with higher operating temp. Some happy "outspoken" Snecma official blurted out that their M88-Eco core can operate[TIT] at more than 1800°C and there were some news that M88-Eco went around 90-95 KN.

From M88-2 came M88-Eco and then came M88-4E.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 21 Feb 2011 11:08

SaiK wrote:Even if they raise it to 95kN, it would fall short of 414 IN specs of 105kN. So, it is a failure from the start. Must stop this Snecma deal.

Not only you, there are people in official level thinks that Kaveri can pull itself on its own. As the timeframe of realizing this becomes important, if we can, i think, there is nothing wrong in taking help from whoever. I too think Snecma-Kaveri engine is going to be only an intermediate gap filler.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Feb 2011 21:06

my question to you Kanson, is this: Why do we need this gap filler? We have the Ge414 ToT to keep everything going per schedule.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 22 Feb 2011 12:37

SaiK wrote:my question to you Kanson, is this: Why do we need this gap filler? We have the Ge414 ToT to keep everything going per schedule.


One is a Kaveri Hybrid (with a lot of Indian designed sub-components) , while the other is 100% foreign engine. Over time, bit-by-bit, it would be possible to indigenize the Kaveri's ECO core module. The same thing can't be said about the F414. You have to start using the Kaveri - the earlier the better ... otherwise it will be relegated to tech demo ... as you have pointed out when a 100% foreign engine is available, why use the Kaveri at all. Indigenization happens over time and even small success leads to something greater down the road.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 24 Feb 2011 13:23


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SriSri » 24 Feb 2011 14:21



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