Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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thammu
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby thammu » 14 Aug 2011 07:38

The Western corridor is non-electric where as the eastern is going to be electric. This is exactly where Railways is showing its interest. Kaveri though inefficient can provide the power to pull 100 carriages with Dual-Stack containers at 100 kmph.


That was the earlier plan. It was finally decided to go for electric traction on both corridors, by having higher pantograph in locos hauling double stacked containers.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 14 Aug 2011 09:58

Whats with this new drdo initiative of building a jet engine. Any further details on it?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pogula » 14 Aug 2011 11:17

AFAIK, electric motors are the most efficient option for locomotives right now. And, using a variation of Kaveri in a tweaked and controlled environment of electricity generation for the Railway Electrical Grid is far more practical and effective for Indian Railways, IMHO, as opposed to using them to propel individual trains.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sivab » 16 Aug 2011 23:24

Kaveri being tested for takeoff thrust of 8257kg (81kN) at Mach 0, sea level.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-snnC1zt3FfI/T ... C03706.JPG

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2011/08/k ... -makc.html

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Aug 2011 06:02

Growing to 100kN is definitely feasible with SC blades, blisks and high temperature coatings and blade designs to drive maximum thrust. If GE & Snecma has done it, we can do it too.. and that is how we came to be testing the 81kN. Now, one may argue it took soooo long.. I ask why not? a little bit more proper management and budgeting would have helped it mature a bit long back.

Furthermore, a slow progress but steady towards to achieve the goals matters a lot in turbines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Aug 2011 06:18

That small thing called 80:20 sometimes bites. 20 at times accounts for 80 of time/funds.

Such is life.

Doable? Has to be done.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby VinodTK » 17 Aug 2011 07:07

DRDO says its Kaveri engine can power combat drones, warships and possibly trains
NEW DELHI: So what if it cannot power fighter jets as of now, it's perfectly suitable for combat drones, warships and possibly even trains! Or, so the never-say-die Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is now proclaiming as far as its Kaveri engine is concerned.

DRDO officials say the Kaveri aero-engine, which incidentally is over 22 years in the making by now with a sanctioned cost of Rs 2,893 crore, can power unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) because they "do not require the kind of higher thrust" needed for the indigenous Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft).

"Nine prototypes of Kaveri engine and four prototypes of Kaveri Core (Kabini) engines have been developed with over 2,000 hours of testing...the engine is proven with almost 80 kilonewtons (kN) of thrust now, which is enough for our UCAVs (Tejas requires 90 kN)," said an official.

This comes even as DRDO has now begun preliminary work on developing stealth UCAVs, under the secretive 'autonomous unmanned research aircraft' programme. This UCAV will weigh less than 15 tonnes, fly at altitudes of 30,000 feet and fire missiles and bombs with precision, as earlier reported by TOI.

DRDO has also come up with a modified Kaveri version, by "designing a free-power turbine to generate shaft power", for propulsion of warships. The Navy, as per DRDO, has shown "a lot of interest" in the engine which has a 12 MW power output.

"With Kaveri, we have proven several gas turbine technologies for a variety of applications. Indian Railways is also interested in knowing whether Kaveri can be used for powering trains," said the official.

DRDO is now also trying to tie up with French company Snecma to jointly develop the "90kN thrust class of upgraded Kaveri engines" for the future requirements of IAF. But the fact remains that the Kaveri project's dismal performance has forced India to ink a $822 million contract for 99 General Electric's F-414 engines, with an option to go for another 49 engines at a later stage, to power the Tejas Mark-II version.

While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful GE F-414 engines. Under the LCA project, which itself has been 28 years in the making with an almost 3,000% jump in overall developmental costs, IAF hopes to have its first two fully-operational Tejas squadrons based at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) by 2015 now.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby thammu » 17 Aug 2011 07:18

Yep, but its gonna take a while before the entire western corridor is electrified


The corridor will be electrified from day 1. The tracks and OHE is coming together, not separately. Doesn't make much economic sense to delink the two.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Aug 2011 08:15

again ToIlet.. is back to 90kN, when IAF wants the 100 mark.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karan_mc » 17 Aug 2011 10:34


P Chitkara
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby P Chitkara » 19 Aug 2011 18:10

Couldn’t find any information on the targeted thrust for Kaveri - post improvements by searching through google chacha. Any links or guesses?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby rajanb » 19 Aug 2011 18:31

P Chitkara wrote:Couldn’t find any information on the targeted thrust for Kaveri - post improvements by searching through google chacha. Any links or guesses?


I thought the target was 90-95 KN?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 19 Aug 2011 18:55

The hard reality is that that we are just learning how to build , maintain and operate jet engines.
We are probably where the Europeans and Americans were some 25 years back. It is a grinding sweaty treacherous slope from here on and investment will be needed. If the Kaveri has done 2000 hours already, then it is a commendable job that has bridged some 40-50 years of technological gap.
But there are simple things we can do to gain more experience. Feeding the Kaveri to the UCAV programme is important. Will yield tonnes of experience in deployment and management. The maintenance issues that come up can be fed back into the design stage of future engines. Handling of components, overhauling , repairs- all that are areas where there is a wealth of information can be gleaned. The support that the Kaveri needs is not just in some high tech material science - it needs everyone and everything ...finance, test infrastructure, IAF , HAL , manufacturing etc. all of them must come together to take the nascent Indian jet engine industry forward

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby PratikDas » 03 Oct 2011 05:36

Cross-posting from the Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum


This allow is corrosion resistant at high temperatures in H2O rich environments and similar alloys have been used for jet engine blades and even the containment chambers of nuclear fusion reactors.

This could be useful for a naval version of the Kaveri or even for the marine gas turbine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby RKumar » 06 Oct 2011 19:33

Kaveri Official technical information

Kaveri three-stage transonic fan, designed for good stall margin and bird strike capability, handles an air mass flow of 78 kg/s and develops a pressure Combustion Chamber Liner ratio of 3.4. The six-stage variable capacity transonic compressor of Kaveri develops a pressure ratio of 6.4. The variable schedule of inlet guide vanes and two rows of stator is through FADEC control system to open the stator blades in a predetermined manner. High intensity low UD ratio annular combustor of Kaveri engine incorporates air blast injection of fuel for uniform outlet temperature profile and reduced carbon emission......

Kaveri engine is controlled by Kaveri full authority digital control unit {KADECU), which has been developed and successfully demonstrated at DRDO's test bed.

Kaveri-Special Characteristics
Air-mass flow : 78 kg/s
By-pass ratio : 0.16
Overall pressure ratio : 21.5
Turbine entry temperature : 1487-1700 K
Maximum dry thrust : 52 kN (5302 kg)
Maximum dry SFC : 0.78 kg/hr/kg
After burner maximum power thrust : 81 kN (8260 kg)
After burner maximum power SFC : 2.03 kg/hr/kg
Thrust-to-weight ratio : 7.8
Application : Indian LCA

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Sidhu » 06 Oct 2011 20:03

^^^ Any chaiwalla info on what is really achieved in the tests at Gromov so far.

Not seen any reports from it (seen figures like 70%...80%) any concrete info on what really transpired.


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Oct 2011 00:44

steal, beg or borrow


borrow is better... if someone is willing. The other two means, follow china model. precision engineering can be never gotten by stealing or begging.

I know it is just an idiom, but develop is always the way to go!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Oct 2011 09:28

I read the report in Rahstriya Sahara, thins morning and was positively stunned that a serving Chief would ask for some thing like this.

It seems that the IAF as an institution has come to the conclusion that for major defense projects home grown is best. The previous IAF Vice Chief is also on record suggesting a need for Reverse Engineering in order to shorten the time lines required to induct home grown products.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby krishnan » 20 Oct 2011 09:30

It could also be out of frustration of waiting for so long. I dont think DRDO didnt try the 3 methods already

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prabhug » 20 Oct 2011 11:43

This is reverse stand to what IAF did when it mocked down the DRDO-SNECMA alliance saying it would not be fully indigneous.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Oct 2011 16:56

In addition, the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) is negotiating with French engine manufacturer Snecma to co-develop high-end technology for the Kabini, which forms the core part of Kaveri engine, being developed for the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas'. The negotiation is at an advanced stage and the DRDO hopes to work with the French so that the engine provides required thrust without affecting the size and weight.


sounds different from the earlier notion of core change.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Oct 2011 09:32

SaiK wrote:
In addition, the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) is negotiating with French engine manufacturer Snecma to co-develop high-end technology for the Kabini, which forms the core part of Kaveri engine, being developed for the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas'. The negotiation is at an advanced stage and the DRDO hopes to work with the French so that the engine provides required thrust without affecting the size and weight.


sounds different from the earlier notion of core change.


How?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Oct 2011 10:08

the earlier idea (atleast on BR) was the core would be wholesale changed to the M88-Eco-core and only the front and back sections would be Indic.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Oct 2011 12:07

Singha wrote:the earlier idea (atleast on BR) was the core would be wholesale changed to the M88-Eco-core and only the front and back sections would be Indic.


:roll: I remember arguing my guts off that Kabini will be there and the JV is about the specific heat areas from Snecma and cold areas from GTRE. Please go back a few pages. ECO Core was proposed but never accepted. Kaveri engine is almost there. Just that the final push is required for the longevity of heat areas, reduction in weight and increase thrust. It doesn't mean total change in engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby GeorgeM » 27 Oct 2011 19:47

Here is a great link on Jet Engines. Written by someone who worked on the J58 engine which powers the SR-71 Balckbird at Mach 3+. One can see the great failures one after another, innovations, jugaad, lies and truths. Really the golden era of US aerospace. Great read, click on the pdf or you can watch the streaming. Interesting thing is that they too had the surge issues Kaveri faced.

http://www.bobabernethy.com/blackbirds_presentation.htm


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby P Chitkara » 23 Nov 2011 17:38

Haven’t the talks been going on forever?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Nov 2011 18:02

P Chitkara wrote:Haven’t the talks been going on forever?


One wonders whether they are MMRCA outcome dependant.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karan_mc » 23 Nov 2011 21:36

if Kaveri MK-2 will power Tejas MK-2 !! ,then what will 98 GE F414IN will power ?? , whats is the link we are missing ? did we canceled GE engine orders ? i am confused

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_19648 » 23 Nov 2011 22:21

karan_mc wrote:if Kaveri MK-2 will power Tejas MK-2 !! ,then what will 98 GE F414IN will power ?? , whats is the link we are missing ? did we canceled GE engine orders ? i am confused


There is nothing to be confused about. India has ordered 99 GE-414 engines for Tejas Mk 2. What this suggests is that there will be far greater no. of Tejas Mk 2 than the 99. The initial ones will roll out with GE-414 engines and the later ones with Kaveri. The plan is, by the time the first 99 Tejas roll out, Kaveri-Snecma engine will be ready to rumble.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby nachiket » 23 Nov 2011 23:54

^^We need an indigenous engine for the AMCA, regardless of whether the LCA Mk2 ever flies with a Kaveri or not. The Kaveri-Snecma JV critically important and non-dependent on the eventual numbers of the LCA Mk2.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Nov 2011 02:52

Having given out the decision, what is preventing the draft specs to be made public? none other than this thread will enjoy to read, I guess. so.. I fear a $h!t hitting the turbo fan situation in the specs.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Nov 2011 11:48

Aditya_V wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:Haven’t the talks been going on forever?


One wonders whether they are MMRCA outcome dependant.


Could very well be the case. I for one, hope this JV goes through, and that the Kaveri becomes the engine for at least 3 future IAF platforms

1) LCA Mk2 (large numbers)

2) Rafale MLU

3) AMCA

4) Mirage 2000 (possible considering the long time frame for the M2k upg, and that the M53s have to be rather long in tooth by now).

CM.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 Dec 2011 09:03

CM ji, I sincerely wish they cancel the M2K upgrade and go with Kaveri++. We can get some 80+ Rafale, and rest devote on AMCA/FGFA. M2K and Rafale platforms are an ideal candidate for K++.
--
http://aeroindia.org/reports-5045
Some of the major reasons for time and cost overruns are first-time development of an engine, lack of skilled manpower in engine manufacturing, enhancement in the scope of project during development, lack of infrastructure for engine manufacture testing and component/system level testing within the country.

"Flying test bed trials was not originally included as a milestone in the project. Engine and component failure during testing, which is inevitable in these kind of projects, resulted in changes in design and material based on various reviews," Antony said.

Foreign manufacturing agencies too showed less priority for the project in view of minimum order quantity, that is the production order quantity from other engine houses.

US sanctions imposed in 1998 (after India's nuclear tests in Pokhran under the National Democratic Alliance regime) affected the delivery of critical systems and components, he added.


so, we have identified areas of weakness. that is a ++ sign.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 05 Dec 2011 15:04

Another set of videos from BBC.
How to build a jumbo jet engine. - a peek into Rolls Royce .

Quite clear that such a large enterprise needs decades of support as should be treated the same way as the Indian nuclear submarine project.

Four part series begins here:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Dec 2011 20:56

SaiK wrote:CM ji, I sincerely wish they cancel the M2K upgrade and go with Kaveri++. We can get some 80+ Rafale, and rest devote on AMCA/FGFA. M2K and Rafale platforms are an ideal candidate for K++.


How would the cancellation of the M2k upg. be related to to Kaveri? THey are as of now, on separate paths. Also, now that I think about it, Kaveri won't be an easy fit into the M2K, which uses a much bigger sized engine - a more in the AL-31 class in terms of dimensions.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Jayram » 05 Dec 2011 21:42

Neela wrote:Another set of videos from BBC.
How to build a jumbo jet engine. - a peek into Rolls Royce .

Quite clear that such a large enterprise needs decades of support as should be treated the same way as the Indian nuclear submarine project.


Good one.. Part 2 of 4 at around 9 minutes has the part about single crystal blades.. Each turbine blade operates at 300 Deg above its melting pt.. mind blowing stuff
Thanks for the that..


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2011 20:37

CMji, where there is will...way, from 6 stage to 8 stage it could be made possible. All depends on the core design.


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