Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby omdhar » 14 May 2012 19:52

First flight of Kaveri engine on LCA Tejas Mk-I in about three years’ time : A K Antony

http://idrw.org/?p=11417

Premier defence research agency DRDO plans to commence flight trials for technology demonstration of Kaveri Engine with the Light Combat Aircraft in about three years time, government told theLok Sabha today.

In a written reply to the House, Defence Minister A K Antony said that “DRDO has not fixed any time frame to fully develop the Kaveri Aero Engine for the LCA, Tejas…. It is planned to commence flight trials for technology demonstration of Kaveri engine with LCA Tejas Mk-I in about three years’ time.”

He was asked whether DRDO has fixed any timeframe to fully develop the Kaveri aero engine for the LCA.

“LCA Tejas requires 90 kN thrust class engine to meet its operational requirement, whereas Kaveri engine does not fully meet this requirement. It has been decided to use variants of Kaveri Engine to power Unmanned Air Vehicle and also for marine applications,” Antony said.

Replying to a question on the monetary allocations made to the DRDO in last three years, the Minister tabled a report of the money provided to it under various heads.

Since 2009-10 till 2011-12, government’s budgetary estimate for the DRDO was Rs 28,543.43. The revised estimate for the same period was Rs 28,888.55 crore.

The actual expenditure incurred by the organisation since 2009 till 2011-72 has been Rs 28,485.40 crore.

In reply to a question on delivery of equipment by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said that the “government has taken cognisance of the complaints of IAF regarding delayed delivery of equipment by HAL.”

There have been delays in some projects due to rework of the Jigs supplied by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in respect of Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers (AJT), the Minister said.

“Delays were also noticed in establishing the facilities for complex engine components and radar software in respect of SU-30 MKI aircraft and certification of Shakti engine by the OEM in respect of Advance Light Helicopters (ALH),” Raju said.

Changes in Standard of Preparation (SOP) for the LCA and delay in engine development by the OEM in respect of Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) also caused further time lags in these projects, he said.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 May 2012 20:51

what the babooze are not highlighting is the the change in requirements form lower thrust engine to a higher thust one.. what is the guarantee now that 90kN is the required thrust and not 100kN. requirements engineering is missing.


What is the T:W ratio needed? hopefully, we have done some detailed analysis on the requirement for the next phase.. it would be a national shame if we continue to ignore basics. we can't afford to do such silly mistakes in terms of drafting requirements even if we take time to meet them.

tranches based development approach is the only way to success.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 May 2012 20:53

wondering if BR web masters should be double emphasizing negative reporting?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=18525

flight global will think no fraction of a second to slam anything Indian.. we need dr. saraswat and kalam ji intervention to correct our jet engine development images in public.

one another way is reorg, and get fresh impetus... I am confident we can do this all by ourselves - 100kN it shall be.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 16 May 2012 21:09

SaiK wrote:one another way is reorg, and get fresh impetus... I am confident we can do this all by ourselves - 100kN it shall be.

And what gives you that confidence? The Marut failed because of a lack of a local (or foreign) engine, the LCA has like the Marut, flown on a foreign engine.

Perhaps we need to be realstic and make sure that the Kaveri is successful (good MTBO like western engines) in the Aura UCAV and perhaps a trainer. Also Kaveri Marine needs to be used in IN Navy ships. GTRE needs to be re-orgranized. That is something people have been saying for the past decade. It may now be too late. Perhaps the only way out is aggresive recruitment of fresh talent to complement the existing manpower and investment to enhance facilities. We need to give them smaller targets - engine for a basic trainer etc. and see if they can come up with something in the next five years. If not then GTRE should be disbanded and talented staff absorbed into HAL/DRDO.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 May 2012 22:49

confidence from observing the capabilities established in complex engineering feats.
confidence from the performance of DRDO missile defence projects
confidence from ISRO's capability and remarkable achievements.
confidence from our fundemental talents - edu cream from IISc, IIT, etc.
confidence from the very fact that we desire to build an indegnous one.

--

Yes.. once problem is identified, we can't sleep on it. disbandening is easy.. destruction is the simplest activity for human and non-human chain of events.

reorg is a constructive thought. it is hard to visualize, and is complex.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 16 May 2012 23:37

IMO, the following Kaveri variants should be pursued:

  • 120-150kN (w/ afterburner) -> FGFA-sized twin-engined aircrafts
  • 90-100kN (w/ afterburner) -> LCA-sized single-engine or AMCA-sized twin-engined aircrafts
  • 15-35kN -> IJT-sized single-engine or Hawk AJT-sized single-engine aircrafts
  • 1-5kN -> Micro engines for cruise missiles and small UAVs

Further variants should be pursued for civilian aircrafts along with turboprops.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 17 May 2012 04:31

Saik we need to learn to walk before we can run. All the data from Agnis cannot help a single blade of the Kaveri. Till we have a breakthrough on that front, the MTBO for the Kaveri would not be comparable to that of western engines. A separate initiative should be looked into to work on Single Crystal tech. GTRE should focus on making the Kaveri work for the UCAV till then and for marine purposes.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 May 2012 17:05

agree, and at the same time, we can't let this puppy go by without corrections, where possible.

another issue is, if X walked in 10 months, I can allow Y walk in X+Y months. But we need that Y months well defined., giving all factors into considerations. Beyond a certain limit.. and once it goes into babooze hands.. jee, I can't imagine a jet engine decision done by baboo hands.

the reason, we need our special task force enaged on this, and ask for extra money on Kaveri++.

We need to do begin the Kaveri-100kN wala [cause, I consider testing at grumov is a walk by Kaveri].. we have learnt to walk.. we have corrected the limbs.. but the lessor learned here, imho, is GTRE was a bad parent.. it let an autistic kid to grow all by itself..without doing certain things in time [not technical aspects alone]... more from the engineering aspect - requirements, rating, thrust requirements, technology and materials needed. etc. it is a big project, and they just accepted what babooze gave them money. they think, they can create a magic. no please!.. it requires time, money, energy and efforts. It requires top notch people to work on this puppy.

We can't let the core engine be made with firang collaboration. We have to do it by ourselves is my point of view.. for this, we need to do something to GTRE. money+management.. just like dr.saraswat leadership is needed.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Jun 2012 12:42

Seems like HAL may be contemplating designing and developing A 20 kT engine for

Military Trainer
Light Commercial Transport Aircraft
Business Jets / Private Jets
Military Transport aircraft
Light Compact aircraft
UAV / UCAV
Reconnaissance Drones

Go to page 3

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 12 Jun 2012 17:45

^ from the link:
problem:-
Russian designed thermostat in the ARK-10 radio
compass unit became unreliable and difficult to
maintain due to chattering of contacts. The units are
unserviceable and the numbers of units for repair are
piling up day by day leading to alarming situation.

solution:-
SLRDC Engineers took up the challenge to resolve
the issue and successfully designed a suitable alternate
temperature control mechanism using readily available
Aerospace grade bi-metallic thermostats from
Honeywell.

Just wondering about the challenge here.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby khukri » 19 Jun 2012 19:59


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jun 2012 20:15

I do hpe that is not true! We do need a engine for AMCA.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Jun 2012 20:59

Insane decision. It is time to reorg.

If the report is wrong, charge sheet that dork media person.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby rrao » 19 Jun 2012 21:20

SaiK wrote:^ from the link:
problem:-
Russian designed thermostat in the ARK-10 radio
compass unit became unreliable and difficult to
maintain due to chattering of contacts. The units are
unserviceable and the numbers of units for repair are
piling up day by day leading to alarming situation.

solution:-
SLRDC Engineers took up the challenge to resolve
the issue and successfully designed a suitable alternate
temperature control mechanism using readily available
Aerospace grade bi-metallic thermostats from
Honeywell.

Just wondering about the challenge here.


The temp control is for an oven controlled colpitts oscillator. The oscillator frequency depends on the inductance and capacitance values. The challenge is that any new object
introduced inside the enclosed oven controlled oscillator module , changes the frequency out of range. so it was a challenge to modify the temp control mechanism with out altering the frequency range and drift. The design belongs to our good old friends, who are presently screwing us.hope its clear!!!!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_19648 » 19 Jun 2012 21:53

I have been to GTRE a couple of times and it seems the org suffers from an acute union problem! Though I don't have much details about Kaveri as a project and only have knowledge from public sources, the 3 visits that I had weren't particularly on best occasions. On the first one, the employees (most probably the lower strata) had erected a huge shade infront of the main GTRE gate and were seemingly protesting against something. The whole gate was obstructed but people were moving in and out through the crowd itself. The second time, there were lots of slogans painted on the GTRE walls again protesting against something, what I gathered by reading them was about some election thing going on. The third time also, there was a small crowd infront of the gate (employees) with some agenda. Also, the premise doesn't seem to have very rigid security, in accordance to its criticality. How these things affect the work culture, I have no idea, can only hope that they don't. Maybe upgradation of the facility and better management can go a long way in solving the perils of GTRE.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 19 Jun 2012 22:08

^^^ OT
With public offices, I don't think that we will get any better than the snail's pace ... I am sorry to say this, but there needs to be much more personal gains/losses at stake than national interest for things to roll.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 19 Jun 2012 22:17

khukri wrote:India Scraps Domestic Jet Engine Plan

End of Kaveri for Tejas?


That report is misleading. We already know that for LCA Mk.2 99 F414 are on order and for Mk.1 it is F404. Nothing new here.

Kaveri is still in as far as AMCA, UAV and LCA Mk.3 (if there is a variant). So it's not an end of the road for Kaveri.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 19 Jun 2012 22:20

^^ OT sorry.

What was most shocking was the leader of the SC/ST union in BEML saying that Natarajan had not done anything for the SC/ST communities within BEML and they overjoyed to see him go. So this union business has become just like mainstream politics, appeasement needed all the time.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Jun 2012 22:21

france seems like one country where many of the aerospace and semi facilities are totally under Govt ownership as national facilities, and even the major "pvt" players like dassault, safran, mbda, snecma, thales have substantial govt ownership. even ariane contractors under Astrium likely have some govt fingers in the pie.

inspite of this sarkari model, they have delivered the goods in terms of a pipeline of innovative products and technologies.

has anyone studied why it works for france and not for us - is it people (salary,rentention issue) which can be fixed by throwing more money to match the pvt sector or some organizational/process thing?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 19 Jun 2012 22:35

^^^

When it comes to Military-Industrial-Complex, it is always a public-private partnership. Without huge support from the public sector, private sector can not thrive in the defense markets where R&D costs are astronomical and prone to delays/cost-overruns/cancellation/small quantities order. Profit margins may or may not exist because of the upfront investment required.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Jun 2012 22:42

it is the right people in the right place. PERIOD.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tejas » 20 Jun 2012 00:16

I too noticed this aberration about France. I can not explain it. However, the model of govt ownership has clearly been a dismal failure in India. Unless you are an arms dealer, Indian politician or babu, then the system is a beauty to behold. If even small arms have to be imported, we need to choke, stab and behead the baby then throw it out with the bath water. The system needs to be completely re-built from the ground up not some piecemeal reforms. I am not holding my breath.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby khukri » 20 Jun 2012 00:25

srai wrote:
khukri wrote:India Scraps Domestic Jet Engine Plan

End of Kaveri for Tejas?


That report is misleading. We already know that for LCA Mk.2 99 F414 are on order and for Mk.1 it is F404. Nothing new here.

Kaveri is still in as far as AMCA, UAV and LCA Mk.3 (if there is a variant). So it's not an end of the road for Kaveri.


It isn't misleading - read carefully - its the end of Kaveri for Tejas, not for other uses - UAV's are indicated in the article as well. Too early to make any definitive statements about AMCA or LCA Mk 3 - that last would seem doubtful if it continues as a single engine aircraft.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tejas » 20 Jun 2012 00:41

OT but look what the Home Ministry is importing from Sonia's homeland. It should be illegal to make something this ugly.

Image

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tejas » 20 Jun 2012 00:41

Deleted for posting twice.
Last edited by tejas on 20 Jun 2012 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby hnair » 20 Jun 2012 00:46

er, the above assumptions about France's govt influence in defense corporates means khan, biscuits and germans do not have such influence (call it baliouts, senate-committees, oligarchical, monopoly, single-vendor...whatever) ? French becomes fairgame for khan psyops on "nationalized MIC", but both nations have the same bureaucratic meddling (board-nominees, bailouts, cut-throat budget cancels, scams etc), same snake-oil marketing types and same end-user lobbies.

The difference with India is this - they are willing to go out and hurt random nations. If their systems' fail or get outdated, their ability to threaten in future is gone. Hence the national consensus on getting things done, despite all of the above hurdles is good. Panda wants to be recognized as one such Guido-types and hence is panting for some years on a treadmill and doing dumpster diving for clues .

India has not yet shown any national consensus in becoming one. So we are just having C&C (chai and charminar) outside GTRE/whatnot and our phyjjiks package groups are referred to as "cottage industry". Highly competent boffins, but non-serious national establishment :lol:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 02:11

I would like to know if voicing our concerns here in this thread is at least heard in the right ears at the gov. If it is not happening, then we are still in some bonded sense of firangi controls on key areas of required growth.

I see a scam in the way kaveri project is handled right from the beginning.. there must the super power world who are already supplying engines and parts to us, in the scheme of things.

absolutely, this is a wrong decision. /double emphasis

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 20 Jun 2012 02:31

khukri wrote:
srai wrote:quote="khukri"India Scraps Domestic Jet Engine Plan

End of Kaveri for Tejas?/quote

That report is misleading. We already know that for LCA Mk.2 99 F414 are on order and for Mk.1 it is F404. Nothing new here.

Kaveri is still in as far as AMCA, UAV and LCA Mk.3 (if there is a variant). So it's not an end of the road for Kaveri.


It isn't misleading - read carefully - its the end of Kaveri for Tejas, not for other uses - UAV's are indicated in the article as well. Too early to make any definitive statements about AMCA or LCA Mk 3 - that last would seem doubtful if it continues as a single engine aircraft.


What's new about this? I mean we already knew LCA Mk.2 was not getting the Kaveri. Remember the competition a couple of years ago between F-414 and EJ-200 for 99 engines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Victor » 20 Jun 2012 02:34

indranilroy wrote:^^^ OT
With public offices, I don't think that we will get any better than the snail's pace ... I am sorry to say this, but there needs to be much more personal gains/losses at stake than national interest for things to roll.

Correct. OT again but here is how it works in khan:

To be chosen a defense contractor, the supplier must have a successful track record of operations and a minimum technical QC rating. Unkil will favor those companies that have developed proprietary tech at their own risk and if chosen, will pay for that tech. Once contract is given, Khan picks up all development and tooling costs and guarantees a reasonable profit. Everything is done to ensure smooth progress of the contract, including a well laid out delivery schedule and advance payment for materials etc. There is minimal risk to the private vendor and govt business is the closest one can come to guaranteed profit in the private sector. Govt contractors have the inside track on future contracts going forward, mainly because they have become intimately familiar with the "mil specs". Unkil is integral to all operations starting with development of specs and design of parts and tooling and ending with testing, QC and shipping but it will not interfere with the running of the company. Govt engineers, contract specialists and private contractors are guided by the letter of very clearly written and unambiguous regulations and instructions at every stage and redundant paper/electronic trails are created. There is little scope for corruption. Contract specialists scrupulously avoid getting too chummy with contractors. This system is visible in everything from the F-35 to small arms.

I would suspect that the system is very much the same in France except that high-level chumminess probably plays a bigger part. Not a single major MIC today is purely government or private. They all operate on the principle of government providing direction and support and the private sector providing the expertise. The common thread is that there is no room for sycophancy or unanswerablity at any level and the sole determining factor is results and merit. Discipline is provided effectively in the private sector by the usual means and in dicktatorial regimes by the Gulag or a bullet in the head. India is the only country where the government runs everything and decades of delay, waste and non-performance are tolerated.

If the Kaveri has indeed been dropped, it is a positive sign and we may yet see an AMCA that joins the IAF in large numbers before it is obsolete. It will be as "Indian" as an Embraer plane is Brazilian. It is also a good sign that GoI has seemingly chosen not to window dress a Snecma core and call it Kaveri. Hopefully GTRE will continue working on jet engines but IMHO, it should be folded into a private-public company in which the government has minimal input besides putting in the money. Pay and perks should be BETTER than private industry if we want things to change in this critical area. GTRE (or whatever it is called then) should become an elite company that every top engineer in India or abroad wants to join.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 02:51

sell Kaveri from GTRE off! tatas or mahindras could manage it... I am sure, there must be some change.. of course, gov needs to invest in test facilities etc. a 50-50 should attract them... now that will also ensure, they market Kaveri or renamed engine (better rename it to Firangi name) to IAF - upgrades for other a/cs.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tejas » 20 Jun 2012 04:44

The common thread is that there is no room for sycophancy or unanswerablity at any level and the sole determining factor is results and merit.


That my friend puts in a nutshell all that is wrong with complete govt ownership of business and why it is such a spectacular failure in India and everywhere else on this planet. BTW the GOI owns over 250 PSUs. I cannot imagine the waste and incompetence within these entities. We have BEL and ECIL South Korea has Samsung :( :( :(

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 20 Jun 2012 05:30

^^^ You seem to have read a certain book by a certain Atanu Dey. Okay enough of OT for the day from me. Back to Kaveri discussions.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 20 Jun 2012 07:38

In all its years of existence since 1959, has GTRE produced anything that has gone into serial production?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Victor » 20 Jun 2012 08:15

Believe it or not, in the early 60s GTRE was near state of the art in jet engines. The decline has been spectacular thanks entirely to the PSU culture of India.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 20 Jun 2012 08:30

So did GTRE produce a working mass produced engine in the 60s?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Jun 2012 09:10

As long as they have not produced a flight qualified engine which is to say flown the engine in actual fighter aircraft for stipulated hours to get the engine and aircraft certified with each other , it really means nothing in actual terms.

We can have all the engine running on grounds based test rigs or on test platforms like Il-76 but the proof of the pudding is getting it flight qualified and proven.

Even proven engine from established manufacturer like Saturn 117 had to be certified for Su-35 even though they were developed from proven breed of AL-31 engine but with new hot parts.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 17:27

There's a bit of overlap that needs sorting out though. In 2007, HAL had revealed that it was developing a "twin spool turbofan engine to power a cruise missile under design". It had gone on to say that that "ETBRDC will jointly develop this engine with NAL and GTRE. The engine is small; the technology involved is as complex as any bigger engine. Since the usage is for missile application, no external help can be sought and the engine has to be wholly indigenous. This is a challenging task and ETBRDC is confident that it can meet the challenge." (Was HAL talking about the Laghu Shakti? Possibly. The new 20kN engine effort was only announced in February this year.)


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19096

Bull.. technology complexity is there in all spheres.. the kind of risk Kaveri has is entirely different.. a human loss and machine loss is something different. a human loss is more catastrophic than machine loss.

safety critical system engineering has advanced so much into the future, that these orgs have to be re-organized.. perhaps sent abroad for engineering and managment studies, with tie-ups only for educating these men.

it is time kalam saab takes a peek here.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 20 Jun 2012 17:39

Might as well close this thread :( :( :(

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 17:49

^closing the thread cause more harm than solve problems.. it would paint an "L" sign on our foreheads.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 20 Jun 2012 19:43

GTRE/DRDO/HAL/IAF have all failed us by not producing a worthwhile engine in over 5 decades. It needn't have been superdeedooper but a good, reliable engine that performed well in a testing platform - Mig-29 for example as one of its engines. But GTRE must not be closed. It must be re-organized and the work-culture examined. A PSU that feels it is OK to produce nothing for 5 decades will need to be thoroughly re-organized. The brains of the organization must be chanelled under new talent that is hired from around the globe (NRIs/bright persons in HALs Engine Division) and put under dynamic leadership.


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