Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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vsunder
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vsunder » 20 Aug 2014 17:19

Also all the talk about CFD etc. one needs to be careful what it can and what it cannot do. Since we are talking about engines here, we are talking about gas dynamics, compressible flow only, little bit on conceptual level like in stars. Well the fact of the matter is one dimensional gas dynamics was essentially studied by the great Bernhard Riemann in 1860. It is a crime that people separate pure and applied math. etc. what the heck is that. Riemann a great number theorist found a complete set of invariants. This tells us the nature of shocks ( and you better understand that very, very well, or the effing engine will have flameouts) etc etc. Riemann invariants are fundamental

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_invariant

But unfortunately two dimensional and three dimensional gas dynamics even after what 150 years is hardly there, there is no equivalent theory of Riemann invariants. So people try using CFD, Riemann flow solvers etc. entire careers and lives are built on selling kala jadu of various kinds, mine is bigger than yours. But there is no rigorous mathematical theory to put any of this on a firm level, and as long as there is none, angels and fools can cavort together. Who knows whether these difference schemes converge or are leading you to crud. It becomes a dark art.
There have been some successes though and some schemes have been proven to be convergent. These are primarily the schemes introduced by the Russian Godunov in 1959:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_K._Godunov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godunov%27s_scheme

Also at high angles of attack, CFD is useless need to go back to wind tunnel etc. when and near flow separation takes place. That comment is not an engine comment but still a comment. It is a natural comment if you think about it for 5 minutes. For example in 1 dimensional gas flow of which so much is known, there is the famous entropy condition of the Russian Oleinik and the American Peter Lax. This guarantees solutions and shocks are well behaved. I doubt anything similar is known in two or three dimensional gas flow. Well if it were probably you would get a job and big medal. Here is a book on numerical recipes and schemes with the entropy condition in 1 dimension written out. Shocks in two dim etc who knows, little is known rigorously.

Entropy condition

My understanding of these issues is elementary, I am unpadh aadmi, know nothing of technical specifications of this and that, it does not help my understanding of basic principles.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rien » 21 Aug 2014 11:23

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey Vsunder,

Your understanding of the issues is correct but Classical Mechanics oriented. The problem with that view is that it cannot do what quantum chemistry can do, which is predict material properties of alloys from computer models alone.

As an example of relativistic effects that can only be predicted by the Dirac Equation simulations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativist ... nd_caesium

Some of the phenomena commonly attributed to relativistic effects are:

The stability of mercury(IV) fluoride
Aurophilicity
The stability of the gold anion, Au−, in compounds such as CsAu
The crystal structure of lead, which is face-centered cubic instead of diamond-like
The striking similarity between zirconium and hafnium
The stability of the uranyl cation, as well as other high oxidation states in the early actinides (Pa-Am)
The small atomic radii of francium and radium
About 10% of the lanthanide contraction is attributed to the relativistic mass of high velocity electrons and the smaller Bohr radius that results.
In the case of gold, a lot more than 10% of its contraction is due to relativistically heavy electrons, and gold #79 is almost twice as dense as lead #82.


So your view is an oversimplification of what really happens at the level of atoms and molecules. It's a good simplified model, but inadequate for predicting material properties from raw calculations alone.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 22:50

Rien, vsunder is a master in the math domain & best to be taken very seriously, his self effacing humility apart. In a few "if you think for five minutes" statements (for him), he has posted what it took me far more time (years) to corroborate.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_20292 » 22 Aug 2014 23:34

govardhan wrote:I have dumb question. Is it possible to model and predict phigh temp n pressure properties of alloys using available crystal structures?... Say I mix one or two metals, it attains a different property.. In order to characterize it I have to do experimental analysis.. What if I predict same results in a computer model?
Apologies if such software or prediction algorithm exists.. :(


look up hector abrunas group at cornell. they do this for li ion.

Ranjani Brow

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Ranjani Brow » 23 Aug 2014 19:55

Saurav Jha: Has the program for a domestic turbofan for the Nirbhay taken off? What is the rating of this engine?

Avinash Chander: We have taken up the development of this engine and it has come to the bench test level. It is currently undergoing tests and evaluation and we are confident that we can do it. It has 400 kg thrust engine. But once we have the capability we can achieve varied thrust ratings for engines of this class. Incidentally, Nirbhay is coming up in a big way.


Saurav Jha: And what is the status of the flagship Turbofan development, the Kaveri?

Avinash Chander: Kaveri was tested continuously for 53 hours on a flying test bed in Russia where all the major parameters were proven 8) . There were certain observations which are now being addressed at the lab level. We have put up a proposal to the government to continue. So that we have a viable engine at the end of it. More importantly Kaveri will have to be modified for use in the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV). As that comes under MTCR and nobody will give us engines. So Kaveri will essentially be a lifeline for that program.


Saurav Jha: Turning to the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine. What is the status of that program?

Avinash Chander: KMGT has been taken up as a major joint activity between DRDO and industry. Because it has vast potential.


http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2976/65363/interview-with-dr-avinash-chander-drdo-chief-and-scientific-adviser-to-defence-minister.html

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rien » 24 Aug 2014 18:14

Any further updates? Google didn't find me any details on what has happened with Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 25 Aug 2014 22:47

vic wrote:Is this engine comparable to Shakti of ALH or VK-2500 of Mi-17s? I was wondering if HAL is trying to indigenise ALH or taking first steps towards Medium Helo of 12-15 ton category?

Can you also give the HAL tender link?

Here you go: Request for Information on Design, manufacturing, supply and ToT for single crystal blade for turboshaft engine programme.

By the way, I think that they are just trying to have a Shakti-equivalent.

Meanwhile, an RFI for sensing equipment and software for real time blade vibration monitoring and tip clearance measurement for testing of HTFE-25 has been issued. More details of the engine have surfaced.
The configuration of the engine is twin spool mixed flow low by-pass turbofan. The LP spool consists of three stages of Low Pressure Fan driven by single stage Low Pressure Turbine and HP spool consists of five stages High Pressure Compressor driven by single stage High Pressure Turbine. The LP spool and HP spool maximum speeds are 18000 and 25000 rpm respectively. It is required to measure the blade vibration frequency, amplitude and tip clearance on each stage of the compressors and turbines through non contact type sensor. The temperature on the compressor varies from 20°C to 500°C and that of turbines is of 1200°C. The equipment should be capable of measuring tip clearance in the range of 0-3mm and the frequency up to 5 kHz.


dinesh_kumar wrote:HAL had almost localised the entire Adour engine, incl. hot sections and blades. This was the most powerful version, and making simpler versions from this hard won know how would have been the next logical step. However, they signed ToT with rolls royce to make a less powerful non afterburning Adour engine. Now trying to make a 20-25 KN engine on their own, for trainers and UCAVs, which is powered in England and France by version of Adour engine.

If you go through the dimensions, number of LP and HP stages, or their RPM, you will realize that it is nowhere near an Adour Mk871. For that matter, it is not close to any other 25kN class engine. If successful, HAL would have to be given credit for designing their very own engine. Also, I feel they are purposefully keeping it narrow and long to be useful for the IJT as well (I could be wrong here).

dinesh_kumar wrote:Also, for the Jaguar re-engining, i wish they had used the core of the Kaveri, which is good for 80 KN, around an Adour These were IMHO, some low hanging fruit.

Don't get what you mean by that!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 25 Aug 2014 22:48

Rien wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey Vsunder,

Your understanding of the issues is correct but Classical Mechanics oriented. The problem with that view is that it cannot do what quantum chemistry can do, which is predict material properties of alloys from computer models alone.

As an example of relativistic effects that can only be predicted by the Dirac Equation simulations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativist ... nd_caesium

Some of the phenomena commonly attributed to relativistic effects are:

The stability of mercury(IV) fluoride
Aurophilicity
The stability of the gold anion, Au−, in compounds such as CsAu
The crystal structure of lead, which is face-centered cubic instead of diamond-like
The striking similarity between zirconium and hafnium
The stability of the uranyl cation, as well as other high oxidation states in the early actinides (Pa-Am)
The small atomic radii of francium and radium
About 10% of the lanthanide contraction is attributed to the relativistic mass of high velocity electrons and the smaller Bohr radius that results.
In the case of gold, a lot more than 10% of its contraction is due to relativistically heavy electrons, and gold #79 is almost twice as dense as lead #82.


So your view is an oversimplification of what really happens at the level of atoms and molecules. It's a good simplified model, but inadequate for predicting material properties from raw calculations alone.

Boss, stop trolling, or face the consequences.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 27 Aug 2014 09:57

maitya wrote:
indranilroy wrote:A few details of the Turboshaft engine from HAL are out through the RFI on Design, manufacturing, supply and ToT for single crystal blade for turboshaft engine program.

Some of the above points are quite intriguing really ... when we already 1700K TeT capable DS blades, why we do we require 3-Gen SCBs? :-o

One pertinent point though - that 1700K capability is via serpentine air flow pessages made possible by cooling holes (which will not be there in this case).

But, yes it's a laudible initiative no doubt - we don't have any turboshaft program, this should provide some fast-tracked capability.

Few more details have arrived in a Request for Information on Development, supply and ToT for Thermal Barrier Coatings (TBCs) using EBPVD technique for HP turbine blades.

Requirements / Scope of work

The gas inlet temperature to the HPT blade section is estimated to be about 1500 K. Thermal Barrier coating using the EBPVD process is required for HP Turbine Rotor to reduce the effect of such high temperature. The blades are proposed to be made up of Nickel based single crystal super alloy of 3rd generation. The blade will be running at 40,000 to 44,000 rpm. Approx. working temperature of the blade is 1273 to 1400 K. Nominal working gas pressure is in the range of 10 to 12 bar

Expected life of the HPT blade is 10,000 hours.

Process to be employed:
It is proposed to use EBPVD for depositing NiCoCrAlYTa coatings (the bond coat and top coat material) for the HPT Stage I blades. Typical thickness proposed for the top coat are about 130-150 microns for EBPVD. <snip> The turbine blade tip will be coated as shown in the following figure by air plasma spray method.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 27 Aug 2014 14:57

I have a security related question regarding the tender released by the HAL. Would scope of work not make the interested parties aware of what is required. Through that awareness, they could model what it is required for?

Just as people on this thread are doing.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Ramesh » 27 Aug 2014 19:10

^
OT
This is what open source intelligence is all about. And one of the hazards of not having own capability. Had that been the case, the work would have been going on in some obscure lab without anybody becoming any wiser.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 27 Aug 2014 19:24

NRao wrote:IMHO, India lacks a governing body that provides direction, some form of encouragement, enables funds, supports effort and a place where-the-buck-stops.

Or if there is one, it has been very, very ineffective.

This applies to everything - across the board, exceptions:IN, ISRO and a handful of others that I am sure I have missed (BARC?)(?).


"India lacks a governing body that provides direction, some form of encouragement, enables funds, supports effort and a place where-the-buck-stops."

I don't think this absence of leadership and governance is limited to any particular sector. It is systemic to the Indian state. Hope NaMo does better

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 27 Aug 2014 19:33

Don't worry. There are no open tenders for strategic parts. All these tenders are for commercial entities.

For example, the turboshaft engine is for the manufacture and treatment of blades using standard techniques. And it is 1000 to 1200 KW engine for helicopters. There is nothing to hide there. The shape of the blades are revealed. All of these information can be readily accessed by anybody once the engine is ready and fielded in a commercial product.

On the other hand, they did not publish anything for Nirbhay's engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 27 Aug 2014 19:47

^ They already achieved 80 KN on Kaveri, and they are ready to use F125 with 40-46 KN.Why not a version of Adour with same know how of Kaveri to get same power? Or perhaps a "lite" Kaveri with smaller dimensions to fit on the Jaguar.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vsunder » 27 Aug 2014 20:20

There is no dedicated thread for Materials, or at least I am not aware, so I am posting in this thread. No need to start a new thread. The world has rapidly changed in about 20 years. (a) Mathematics aka rigorous theorem proving, (b) numerical simulation and (c) experiments go hand in hand and supplement each other. I had posted earlier a link to a Rigidity question in engineering and how the optimal solution is achieved by using just two materials,
the lowest density and highest density material. The same problem arises in Photonics with a near similar optimization question. One wishes to design a chamber of a given prescribed shape where the electromagnetic radiation is confined for the longest possible time, with materials with different refractive indices. For example one way is to achieve near total internal reflection.
Guess what, same answer as in the rigidity article, just use two materials, lowest refractive index and highest refractive index is what you use to build the optimizer, shape of the chamber is given etc. Of course they use the ideas of the paper I linked earlier. Again you see in this paper of Photonics all three things (a), (b) and (c) coming together. This is increasingly the future. Unfortunately such cooperation across fields is unknown in India, and talking even modestly about such things there elicit just stares. You can see it does not involve much and can be easily done, but.....
What is being done now is laying the groundwork for things 10 years from now and the dividends are enormous.

Reading the abstract by itself shows how close the Photonics situation is to the Rigidity problem( another instance of the ubiquity of certain equations in many different types of phenomena, you can see how they have translated the earlier work of rigidity to this optical problem)

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.3600.pdf

http://epubs.siam.org/doi/abs/10.1137/110856228

Sorry this will be my last post on these things. I am sorry to have bored people.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 28 Aug 2014 00:01

dinesh_kumar wrote:^ They already achieved 80 KN on Kaveri, and they are ready to use F125 with 40-46 KN.Why not a version of Adour with same know how of Kaveri to get same power? Or perhaps a "lite" Kaveri with smaller dimensions to fit on the Jaguar.

Ofcourse, one can gain from the design and fabrication knowledge learnt from Kaveri. But Kaveri and F125IN are from two completely different classes of engines. One is twice as powerful, big, and heavy as the other. So "adapting" Kaveri to a F125 IN equivalent is a complete redesign process. Don't think it can be accomplished in less than 10 years. The Jaguars will at most be around for 15!

The decision for refitting F125IN engines for Jaguar is a no-brainer. Orders should be placed as soon as possible.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby suryag » 28 Aug 2014 02:14

Sunder garu - there is this sticky thread in mil forum by maitya ji detailing the materials used and their relevance for kaveri

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 29 Aug 2014 15:42

Apologies if that has beebn posted before - it is 2 weeks old.
DRDO to Set Up Rs 1,600 Crore Gas Turbine Project at NSP
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will set up a first gas turbine project in the country at Nagarjuna Sagar in Nalgonda district with an estimated cost of Rs 1,600 crore.
The DRDO officials searched several sites across the country and finally found the the site near NSP suitable for the project. Currently, the DRDO is dependent on gas turbine project in Moscow for its needs.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_20292 » 29 Aug 2014 17:44

vsunder wrote:There is no dedicated thread for Materials, or at least I am not aware, so I am posting in this thread. No need to start a new thread. The world has rapidly changed in about 20 years. (a) Mathematics aka rigorous theorem proving, (b) numerical simulation and (c) experiments go hand in hand and supplement each other. I had posted earlier a link to a Rigidity question in engineering and how the optimal solution is achieved by using just two materials,
the lowest density and highest density material. The same problem arises in Photonics with a near similar optimization question. One wishes to design a chamber of a given prescribed shape where the electromagnetic radiation is confined for the longest possible time, with materials with different refractive indices. For example one way is to achieve near total internal reflection.
Guess what, same answer as in the rigidity article, just use two materials, lowest refractive index and highest refractive index is what you use to build the optimizer, shape of the chamber is given etc. Of course they use the ideas of the paper I linked earlier. Again you see in this paper of Photonics all three things (a), (b) and (c) coming together. This is increasingly the future. Unfortunately such cooperation across fields is unknown in India, and talking even modestly about such things there elicit just stares. You can see it does not involve much and can be easily done, but.....
What is being done now is laying the groundwork for things 10 years from now and the dividends are enormous.

Reading the abstract by itself shows how close the Photonics situation is to the Rigidity problem( another instance of the ubiquity of certain equations in many different types of phenomena, you can see how they have translated the earlier work of rigidity to this optical problem)

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.3600.pdf

http://epubs.siam.org/doi/abs/10.1137/110856228

Sorry this will be my last post on these things. I am sorry to have bored people.


Here's my upvote/like for your posts. There are a surprising number of MatSci people around here.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sivab » 18 Oct 2014 03:29

Some interesting info from Dr. V.K. Saraswat talk in IITB posted by indranilroy

- Current Kaveri generates 78KN wet thrust Vs goal of 81KN.
- Next gen advanced Kaveri proposed
- Higher Thrust to Weight goal
- Higher turbine inlet temp 1900 deg K, requires SCB
- HAL has SCB tech from Su-30 ToT, but HAL doesn't have knowledge to create SCB for new configuration reqd by new Kaveri. Even though we have furnace and input materials, HAL personnel lack knowledge for creating new design.
- Either DMRL will have to develop tech or import are the options

-AMCA requires 115KN and the new kaveri proposal is targeted for that.

- FGFA will use upgraded AL31FP engine which will be jointly developed by DRDO, HAL and Russia

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 18 Oct 2014 04:43

dinesh_kumar wrote:^ They already achieved 80 KN on Kaveri, and they are ready to use F125 with 40-46 KN.Why not a version of Adour with same know how of Kaveri to get same power? Or perhaps a "lite" Kaveri with smaller dimensions to fit on the Jaguar.

what and rob us of opportunities to make money, send our kids abroad? DOA!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_26622 » 18 Oct 2014 09:03

^ Their is no point in witch hunting Depts/Org/Ministries for gaps in our defense preparedness.

If the people of India elect Congress in to Power then this is expected 100%. A foreign leader for the world's most populous democracy says a lot. We made a huge mistake, best to own it and move on. Even the most powerful and 'forward' democracy gave power to Bush and is nearly bankrupt today.

Unfortunately, some lessons are learnt the hard way. Now let's not forget!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 18 Oct 2014 09:16

sivab wrote:Some interesting info from Dr. V.K. Saraswat talk in IITB posted by indranilroy

- Current Kaveri generates 78KN wet thrust Vs goal of 81KN.
- Next gen advanced Kaveri proposed
- Higher Thrust to Weight goal
- Higher turbine inlet temp 1900 deg K, requires SCB
- HAL has SCB tech from Su-30 ToT, but HAL doesn't have knowledge to create SCB for new configuration reqd by new Kaveri. Even though we have furnace and input materials, HAL personnel lack knowledge for creating new design.
- Either DMRL will have to develop tech or import are the options

-AMCA requires 115KN and the new kaveri proposal is targeted for that.

- FGFA will use upgraded AL31FP engine which will be jointly developed by DRDO, HAL and Russia


That bolded part is one of the pitfalls of so-called "TOT". You only receive "dumb" knowledge to copy it but don't possess the know-hows to innovate further.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vishvak » 18 Oct 2014 09:20

78kn achieved v/s 81 kn target really? It should be good enough probably though next iteration -115kn for AMCA - will help too.

Better initiate mass production right now instead of planning post-(new goals - new planning - new designs - new testing) cycle.
Last edited by vishvak on 18 Oct 2014 09:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 18 Oct 2014 10:10

srai wrote:
sivab wrote:Some interesting info from Dr. V.K. Saraswat talk in IITB posted by indranilroy

- Current Kaveri generates 78KN wet thrust Vs goal of 81KN.
- Next gen advanced Kaveri proposed
- Higher Thrust to Weight goal
- Higher turbine inlet temp 1900 deg K, requires SCB
- HAL has SCB tech from Su-30 ToT, but HAL doesn't have knowledge to create SCB for new configuration reqd by new Kaveri. Even though we have furnace and input materials, HAL personnel lack knowledge for creating new design.
- Either DMRL will have to develop tech or import are the options

-AMCA requires 115KN and the new kaveri proposal is targeted for that.

- FGFA will use upgraded AL31FP engine which will be jointly developed by DRDO, HAL and Russia


That bolded part is one of the pitfalls of so-called "TOT". You only receive "dumb" knowledge to copy it but don't possess the know-hows to innovate further.


There is tech-know-how and there is tech-know-why. The later is what is needed for design and no one will give it for any amount of money. Anyway, according to Sourav Jha, DRDO has figured out SCB tech. It will take at least 2-3 years to industrialise the process if not done already. So may be we should soon see some augmentation of that with Kaveri. Perhaps in next design. Sourav Jha replied on twitter that due to success in flight testing of current Kaveri for over 50hrs, a new more powerful version is sanctioned (or about to be sanctioned). The current one, i think, will be used for UCAV and new one for AMCA and/or LCA-2 MLU.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_22733 » 18 Oct 2014 10:27

vsunder wrote:There is no dedicated thread for Materials, or at least I am not aware, so I am posting in this thread. No need to start a new thread. The world has rapidly changed in about 20 years. (a) Mathematics aka rigorous theorem proving, (b) numerical simulation and (c) experiments go hand in hand and supplement each other. I had posted earlier a link to a Rigidity question in engineering and how the optimal solution is achieved by using just two materials,
the lowest density and highest density material. The same problem arises in Photonics with a near similar optimization question. One wishes to design a chamber of a given prescribed shape where the electromagnetic radiation is confined for the longest possible time, with materials with different refractive indices. For example one way is to achieve near total internal reflection.
Guess what, same answer as in the rigidity article, just use two materials, lowest refractive index and highest refractive index is what you use to build the optimizer, shape of the chamber is given etc. Of course they use the ideas of the paper I linked earlier. Again you see in this paper of Photonics all three things (a), (b) and (c) coming together. This is increasingly the future. Unfortunately such cooperation across fields is unknown in India, and talking even modestly about such things there elicit just stares. You can see it does not involve much and can be easily done, but.....
What is being done now is laying the groundwork for things 10 years from now and the dividends are enormous.

Reading the abstract by itself shows how close the Photonics situation is to the Rigidity problem( another instance of the ubiquity of certain equations in many different types of phenomena, you can see how they have translated the earlier work of rigidity to this optical problem)

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.3600.pdf

http://epubs.siam.org/doi/abs/10.1137/110856228

Sorry this will be my last post on these things. I am sorry to have bored people.


Not bored at all, very educative and thanks! I have been complaining about technical "silos" that get created in India. Someone knows too much of just one thing, there is very limited attempt to cross-polinate fields, which is how we can accelerate the generation of knowledge. Probably the only way we can ever "catch up" the lost time.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 18 Oct 2014 17:40

nileshjr wrote:There is tech-know-how and there is tech-know-why. The later is what is needed for design and no one will give it for any amount of money. Anyway, according to Sourav Jha, DRDO has figured out SCB tech. It will take at least 2-3 years to industrialise the process if not done already. So may be we should soon see some augmentation of that with Kaveri. Perhaps in next design. Sourav Jha replied on twitter that due to success in flight testing of current Kaveri for over 50hrs, a new more powerful version is sanctioned (or about to be sanctioned). The current one, i think, will be used for UCAV and new one for AMCA and/or LCA-2 MLU.


DMRL has had the tech for a while at laboratory level.
Image

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 18 Oct 2014 23:49

GE 404 on LCA Tejas also gives 78 KN.....and the DMRL SCBs are for the Adour engine on the Jag

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Oct 2014 04:56

have you all heard how ISRO engages young team to achieve next generation of technologies? it is time (or it was decade ago) that I kept repeating to restructure GTRE to engage younger minds. only when we have kaveri powering LCA, we have matured.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Oct 2014 08:33

dinesh_kumar wrote:GE 404 on LCA Tejas also gives 78 KN.....and the DMRL SCBs are for the Adour engine on the Jag


Adour engine on Jag used DS blades.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 19 Oct 2014 09:00

Maitya sahab,

I have a question. Why does the Laghu shakti engine have such a poor SFC of 1.0 kg/kg-hr whereas its contemporaries are at the 0.71 kg/kg-hr mark?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_20292 » 19 Oct 2014 09:42

^^^ Because it is "yathha naam, thathhaa goun"

Naam hai "Laghu shakti" , tho fir kaam "praachand shakti" ka thho nahi de sakti na?

:)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 19 Oct 2014 10:02

Thakur_B wrote:DMRL has had the tech for a while at laboratory level.
Image


I didn't know that. Are we doing anything to incorporate it in Kaveri somehow??

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 19 Oct 2014 19:37

I didn't know that.


IIRC, GJMan had posted such pictures a decade or so ago. ?????

The issue (as has been stated multiple times) is not the ability to make such things (obtained primerly through "ToT"), but to be able to adapt them for internal use.

So,

Are we doing anything to incorporate it in Kaveri somehow??


They will get there, but when they do (not if) it will be because of internal efforts, with perhaps some osmotic effects of a "ToT".

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prataparudra » 20 Oct 2014 20:20

Watched the video of Dr. Saraswat presentation, the link for which was posted here a few posts ago. A few thoughts of my own. With research experience in US universities, I can say that some of the technologies that DRDO is aiming to achieve, would require such huge investments in research tools, personnel etc, that Its hard for me to believe that they would be realized in any time soon.

Each of the bullet points in his presentation, be it Structures, materials, engines, guidance&navigation would require a lot of people with advanced degree and interest in these fields and years and years of research, and still they have to be lucky.

It almost feels like DRDO short lists all the cutting edge tech,science (typically borrowed from overseas) and then throws people and money at it , and see if they can figure it out. The advantage of this approach is that you are really not working on any project that has no real end use, unlike west (US) where lot of research is done without immediate clear goals.
The disadvantages are many, first you are always playing catchup. Secondly, you only have few teams or people working at it, versus, west where multiple universities work on similar projects. Hence significant delay in figuring out stuff, if at all the Indian teams get lucky.

I sincerely hope , the government looks into attracting more Phds with higher stipends, NRI professors with exact pay package as in us and investment in research tools and BIG BIG investements for design iterations and prototype testing. Without this, a big portion of what Dr. Saraswat presented will remain a dream.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prataparudra » 21 Oct 2014 08:05

You misunderstood my idea, and no I'm not in research any more. So this is not me selling anything. It was posted in two forums because the link was posted in two forums. So setting aside your premature comments, NRI professors with research background that is currently not available in India need to be paid enough and given a proper mission. as for paying them fat salaries, just think of it as paying for TOT for which DRDO shells out big money anyway. As for DRDO catching up, you must be joking or have no clue how original research is done.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 24 Oct 2014 18:44

Looks like GTRE is looking for a production agency for the Laghu Shakti engine. EOI:Manufacture of small turbo fan engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_24684 » 18 Nov 2014 19:52

.

Tarmak aka Anantha Krishanan Reports

#‎BreakingNews‬ DRDO to abandon Kaveri project. Stay tune for more on @Oneindia http://t.co/tUGGaUCRxY

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sattili » 18 Nov 2014 19:55

^^^^^
Oneindia.com ‏@Oneindia · 5m5 minutes ago
OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon Kaveri project; GTRE gets revival package http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/oneindia-exclusive-drdo-to-abandon-kaveri-project-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html … #Drdo


OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon
Kaveri project; GTRE gets revival package

https://twitter.com/writetake
Bengaluru, Nov 18: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS ) programme, signaling an end to a desi dream of equipping its own fighter jet with a home-grown power plant.Sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to OneIndia on Tuesday that the DRDO has already moved a file recently seeking the closure of the ambitious engine development project undertaken by Bengaluru-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).The proposal now needs to get the approval of the Ministry of Finance (MoF) and finally the clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) - a process expected to take at least a year.
The Kaveri project, which began in the mid-80s, was aimed at powering the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.GTRE has spent so far Rs 2,106 crore on the project so far and could only fly the engine for 73 hours on the IL-76 Flying Test Bed (FTB) in Russia. The delay in the project saw DRDO choosing the GE 404 engine for Tejas Mk-1 and GE 414 for Tejas Mk-II.

GTRE gets additional funds
Sources said that the DRDO has sanctioned Rs 300 crore for GTRE to take up future projects. "The lab is gearing up to take up some futuristic projects and the sanctions have been already given. Another additional sanction of Rs 700 crore is on its way to help realize these gen-next technologies," an official said.

Sources confirm that a separate proposal of Rs 2,600 crore to develop engines for an ‘ambitious project' is under consideration now. The lab has been given another Rs 70 crore for a strategic programme.

Part of DRDO's bold decision, confirms DG
Refusing to divulge the finer details, Dr K Tamilmani, Director-General (Aero), DRDO, confirmed to OneIndia that the Kaveri project will be scrapped. "Yes. These are part of the bold stand being taken by DRDO. Where ever we have found bottlenecks for long time, with no realistic solutions, it's better to move on. It is an honest stand we are taking," Tamilmani said.When asked whether the decision was a fall out of the recent remarks made by Prime Minister Narendra Modi asking DRDO to come out of the delay trap, the senior official refused to make a direct comment. "If you are fit to run only for 50 km, why attempt 100 km? DRDO has realized its mistakes of the past and we have no hesitation in taking some bold steps," he said.
Sources said that the MoF has sought some clarifications from DRDO on the Kaveri project, before the matter could finally reach the CCS.

Years of hard work won't go waste: GTRE Director
Dr C P Ramanarayanan, Director, GTRE, said that the DRDO decision might not be final. Leading a team of 900-plus staff at GTRE, Dr Ramanarayanan is now left with the task of inspiring the team to launch future projects."This is not the end of the road. We have identified some 12 core areas of technologies and various teams are already at it. Years of hard work put in by the team won't go waste either," Dr Ramanarayanan, a torpedo specialist, told OneIndia. He said world over not many countries have progressed ahead in making engines. "We have made a good start and despite the delays, proved our capabilities to our best of abilities. The lessons learnt will not go down the drain. India must become self sufficient in making aero engines and our efforts will continue," he added.

(The writer is a seasoned aerospace and defence journalist in India. He is the Consultant Editor (Defence) with OneIndia. He tweets @writetake.)

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/onein ... 65505.html



All the best for the next projects...we need to keep developing technologies in this area. There is no substitute for hard lessons learned through sweat and blood.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 18 Nov 2014 20:23

Well, as I see it, this "abandoning Kaveri" business is just baboogiri, and file pushing. The project to deliver an operational engine was essentially dead. The only thing was to complete the development , which they seem to have done and created a working engine and achieved what they were set to do more or less. Trouble is, in the interim, the goal posts have moved a long way.

It would be a wasted effort to develop it further. I had said this long ago, the current Kaveri thermodynamic cycle with it's "Excess Air Dhoti Cooling Technology" through the core is as current and as in vogue as dhoti and bell bottoms in a black tie event. Wont cut the mustard. The only way forward to get a competitive engine , now that the basic design has been licked is to get the new materials in with higher TeT, get that into the core stages, and then get in a new LP system (with a shock in rotor compressor as the YakHerder would remind you) , and a resulting engine with higher by pass ratio and higher overall pressure ratio and of course higher TeT and overall higher efficiency , and create a 125KN engine targeted at the AMCA. I had said call that the Ganga,but call that Godavari maybe.

Anyways, the current Kaveri without afterburner is good for around 45KN or 50KN or so. Wonder what use can that be. Too much for a trainer kind of thing and too little for an operational fighter. Maybe a small UCAV ? Other than that, it falls between the stool.


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