Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_20292 » 19 Oct 2014 09:42

^^^ Because it is "yathha naam, thathhaa goun"

Naam hai "Laghu shakti" , tho fir kaam "praachand shakti" ka thho nahi de sakti na?

:)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 19 Oct 2014 10:02

Thakur_B wrote:DMRL has had the tech for a while at laboratory level.
Image


I didn't know that. Are we doing anything to incorporate it in Kaveri somehow??

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 19 Oct 2014 19:37

I didn't know that.


IIRC, GJMan had posted such pictures a decade or so ago. ?????

The issue (as has been stated multiple times) is not the ability to make such things (obtained primerly through "ToT"), but to be able to adapt them for internal use.

So,

Are we doing anything to incorporate it in Kaveri somehow??


They will get there, but when they do (not if) it will be because of internal efforts, with perhaps some osmotic effects of a "ToT".

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prataparudra » 20 Oct 2014 20:20

Watched the video of Dr. Saraswat presentation, the link for which was posted here a few posts ago. A few thoughts of my own. With research experience in US universities, I can say that some of the technologies that DRDO is aiming to achieve, would require such huge investments in research tools, personnel etc, that Its hard for me to believe that they would be realized in any time soon.

Each of the bullet points in his presentation, be it Structures, materials, engines, guidance&navigation would require a lot of people with advanced degree and interest in these fields and years and years of research, and still they have to be lucky.

It almost feels like DRDO short lists all the cutting edge tech,science (typically borrowed from overseas) and then throws people and money at it , and see if they can figure it out. The advantage of this approach is that you are really not working on any project that has no real end use, unlike west (US) where lot of research is done without immediate clear goals.
The disadvantages are many, first you are always playing catchup. Secondly, you only have few teams or people working at it, versus, west where multiple universities work on similar projects. Hence significant delay in figuring out stuff, if at all the Indian teams get lucky.

I sincerely hope , the government looks into attracting more Phds with higher stipends, NRI professors with exact pay package as in us and investment in research tools and BIG BIG investements for design iterations and prototype testing. Without this, a big portion of what Dr. Saraswat presented will remain a dream.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prataparudra » 21 Oct 2014 08:05

You misunderstood my idea, and no I'm not in research any more. So this is not me selling anything. It was posted in two forums because the link was posted in two forums. So setting aside your premature comments, NRI professors with research background that is currently not available in India need to be paid enough and given a proper mission. as for paying them fat salaries, just think of it as paying for TOT for which DRDO shells out big money anyway. As for DRDO catching up, you must be joking or have no clue how original research is done.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 24 Oct 2014 18:44

Looks like GTRE is looking for a production agency for the Laghu Shakti engine. EOI:Manufacture of small turbo fan engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_24684 » 18 Nov 2014 19:52

.

Tarmak aka Anantha Krishanan Reports

#‎BreakingNews‬ DRDO to abandon Kaveri project. Stay tune for more on @Oneindia http://t.co/tUGGaUCRxY

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sattili » 18 Nov 2014 19:55

^^^^^
Oneindia.com ‏@Oneindia · 5m5 minutes ago
OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon Kaveri project; GTRE gets revival package http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/oneindia-exclusive-drdo-to-abandon-kaveri-project-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html … #Drdo


OneIndia Exclusive: DRDO to abandon
Kaveri project; GTRE gets revival package

https://twitter.com/writetake
Bengaluru, Nov 18: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS ) programme, signaling an end to a desi dream of equipping its own fighter jet with a home-grown power plant.Sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to OneIndia on Tuesday that the DRDO has already moved a file recently seeking the closure of the ambitious engine development project undertaken by Bengaluru-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).The proposal now needs to get the approval of the Ministry of Finance (MoF) and finally the clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) - a process expected to take at least a year.
The Kaveri project, which began in the mid-80s, was aimed at powering the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.GTRE has spent so far Rs 2,106 crore on the project so far and could only fly the engine for 73 hours on the IL-76 Flying Test Bed (FTB) in Russia. The delay in the project saw DRDO choosing the GE 404 engine for Tejas Mk-1 and GE 414 for Tejas Mk-II.

GTRE gets additional funds
Sources said that the DRDO has sanctioned Rs 300 crore for GTRE to take up future projects. "The lab is gearing up to take up some futuristic projects and the sanctions have been already given. Another additional sanction of Rs 700 crore is on its way to help realize these gen-next technologies," an official said.

Sources confirm that a separate proposal of Rs 2,600 crore to develop engines for an ‘ambitious project' is under consideration now. The lab has been given another Rs 70 crore for a strategic programme.

Part of DRDO's bold decision, confirms DG
Refusing to divulge the finer details, Dr K Tamilmani, Director-General (Aero), DRDO, confirmed to OneIndia that the Kaveri project will be scrapped. "Yes. These are part of the bold stand being taken by DRDO. Where ever we have found bottlenecks for long time, with no realistic solutions, it's better to move on. It is an honest stand we are taking," Tamilmani said.When asked whether the decision was a fall out of the recent remarks made by Prime Minister Narendra Modi asking DRDO to come out of the delay trap, the senior official refused to make a direct comment. "If you are fit to run only for 50 km, why attempt 100 km? DRDO has realized its mistakes of the past and we have no hesitation in taking some bold steps," he said.
Sources said that the MoF has sought some clarifications from DRDO on the Kaveri project, before the matter could finally reach the CCS.

Years of hard work won't go waste: GTRE Director
Dr C P Ramanarayanan, Director, GTRE, said that the DRDO decision might not be final. Leading a team of 900-plus staff at GTRE, Dr Ramanarayanan is now left with the task of inspiring the team to launch future projects."This is not the end of the road. We have identified some 12 core areas of technologies and various teams are already at it. Years of hard work put in by the team won't go waste either," Dr Ramanarayanan, a torpedo specialist, told OneIndia. He said world over not many countries have progressed ahead in making engines. "We have made a good start and despite the delays, proved our capabilities to our best of abilities. The lessons learnt will not go down the drain. India must become self sufficient in making aero engines and our efforts will continue," he added.

(The writer is a seasoned aerospace and defence journalist in India. He is the Consultant Editor (Defence) with OneIndia. He tweets @writetake.)

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/onein ... 65505.html



All the best for the next projects...we need to keep developing technologies in this area. There is no substitute for hard lessons learned through sweat and blood.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 18 Nov 2014 20:23

Well, as I see it, this "abandoning Kaveri" business is just baboogiri, and file pushing. The project to deliver an operational engine was essentially dead. The only thing was to complete the development , which they seem to have done and created a working engine and achieved what they were set to do more or less. Trouble is, in the interim, the goal posts have moved a long way.

It would be a wasted effort to develop it further. I had said this long ago, the current Kaveri thermodynamic cycle with it's "Excess Air Dhoti Cooling Technology" through the core is as current and as in vogue as dhoti and bell bottoms in a black tie event. Wont cut the mustard. The only way forward to get a competitive engine , now that the basic design has been licked is to get the new materials in with higher TeT, get that into the core stages, and then get in a new LP system (with a shock in rotor compressor as the YakHerder would remind you) , and a resulting engine with higher by pass ratio and higher overall pressure ratio and of course higher TeT and overall higher efficiency , and create a 125KN engine targeted at the AMCA. I had said call that the Ganga,but call that Godavari maybe.

Anyways, the current Kaveri without afterburner is good for around 45KN or 50KN or so. Wonder what use can that be. Too much for a trainer kind of thing and too little for an operational fighter. Maybe a small UCAV ? Other than that, it falls between the stool.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 18 Nov 2014 22:01

^ What about trying it out for Jaguar re-engine instead of F125-IN. Atleast one jaguar can be tried out.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Victor » 18 Nov 2014 22:31

Design a dedicated ground attack aircraft around it. Something like the Su-25 and A-10. We have been designing planes bassackwards and its time to do it the right way. And lets PLEASE release the RFI to all interested companies, not just pampered PSUs. Kaveri must not be thrown in the dustbin if we can help it but the decision is indeed a good one. Let's move on.

The important part of this is the last sentence: "..India must become self sufficient in making aero engines and our efforts will continue.."

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby nachiket » 18 Nov 2014 23:09

arvin wrote:^ What about trying it out for Jaguar re-engine instead of F125-IN. Atleast one jaguar can be tried out.

Kaveri is twice as powerful, twice as long and twice as heavy as the F125.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 18 Nov 2014 23:25

abandoning kaveri appears to be like desi layoffs! it is important the technology survives, and experience documented and applied for whatever new engine we want to call it gets into LCA/MCA or any IAF fighter jet.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Nov 2014 09:38

I have some mango questions here gurus -

1. Is the UCAV project still using the Kaveri or not?

2. How can the expertise of Kaveri - particularly Human one be preserved and used? Is it going to be used for New Engine efforts?

3. Any new engine project sanctioned or nothing is in proposal level?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 19 Nov 2014 13:06

Avinash Chander did say that Kaveri will power the UCAV.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JTull » 19 Nov 2014 15:37

GoI has finally decided that throwing good money after bad would be a waste. The gravy train had to end. Better to move on then be saddled with legacy issues.

I hope that GTRE will find similar success as IGMP program has found since abandoning Trishul.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Nov 2014 16:46

G.T.R.E. may need to be restructured immediately with better project management etc and also may be some greater leadership from MOD for any future projects which require lot of commitment from time and money side.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Victor » 19 Nov 2014 21:45

GoI should conduct a roundtable with DRDO, GTRE and selected private players big and small. Then the PSUs should be relegated only to research on the key areas with top personnel seconded from private sector while 2 or 3 private players are paid to develop an engine, either singly or jointly as a national project. We have to stop relying on the PSUs on these critical items as if they are our best assets. They are not. GTRE needs to cease being a sarkari sacred cow and should consist of people from 10-20 private and public entities. The current scheme has not worked and we will continue to suffer until we change it.

While the effort to build an indigenous engine will continue, I doubt if Modi will allow the exact same dispensation to jump merrily from a failed project to a new one without a radical change in approach.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_26622 » 19 Nov 2014 22:40

GE makes turbine power plants - large for power plants and small for planes/ships

Equivalent in India >>> BHEL for large power plants, roll off GTRE in to BHEL as semi independent research unit.

Looks quite obvious to take all engine make-rebuild-refurbish facilities spread out between HAL and all under one roof - owned by BHEL. Synergies will come through over.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Nov 2014 08:03

tell me what GE does not venture into ?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_26622 » 20 Nov 2014 10:54

^ Question should be which segments is GE number 1 or 2. Rest of the segments where it lags will be sold off as per their long known stance. They are leaders in 'turbine' technology and are doubling down on this key segment.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Nov 2014 11:27

Victor wrote:GoI should conduct a roundtable with DRDO, GTRE and selected private players big and small. Then the PSUs should be relegated only to research on the key areas with top personnel seconded from private sector while 2 or 3 private players are paid to develop an engine, either singly or jointly as a national project. We have to stop relying on the PSUs on these critical items as if they are our best assets. They are not. GTRE needs to cease being a sarkari sacred cow and should consist of people from 10-20 private and public entities. The current scheme has not worked and we will continue to suffer until we change it.

While the effort to build an indigenous engine will continue, I doubt if Modi will allow the exact same dispensation to jump merrily from a failed project to a new one without a radical change in approach.


people from 10-20 private and public entities.

Private sector means private sector salaries and public entities means public sector salaries.

No one is going to work for charity or in any organisation where such wage discrimination may be practiced.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Nov 2014 11:34

nik wrote:GE makes turbine power plants - large for power plants and small for planes/ships

Equivalent in India >>> BHEL for large power plants, roll off GTRE in to BHEL as semi independent research unit.

Looks quite obvious to take all engine make-rebuild-refurbish facilities spread out between HAL and all under one roof - owned by BHEL. Synergies will come through over.


Such as it is, HAL is the repository of much of the aircraft engine related knowledge in India. No sense in bringing in BHEL into the already complicated mix. GTRE has taken all for a ride and who so ever was/is responsible should be penalized. This has been a colossal waste of national resources with the now recognized end result that was glaringly obvious much much earlier. There was no one to bell the cat.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Nov 2014 13:59

Or may be launch a national engine development effort. With Pvt companies forming consortium on the basis of various competencies. Such as materials and other field. The GTRE or any other global player, acts as a consultant, for the effort.

The effort should be focused on the various types of engines that are projected for Indian requirements both civil and military, over the next 15 to 20 years.

Once the competencies have been developed, those consortium can independently develop into P&W and GE, equivalents over the next 20 years.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 20 Nov 2014 15:52

I would seriously have hoped that they could fit this engine into something, just for the sake of it and just so that the long term implications are evident. Why scrap an engine altogether, beats me !

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 20 Nov 2014 17:08

They should have developed a LIFT around that engine. Built around the LCA trainer it would make a good LIFT.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Austin » 21 Nov 2014 10:21

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618

The Kaveri project has yielded these pluses: 1) KMGT 2) A usable core 3) served as a hinge for DMRL to develop new materials.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 21 Nov 2014 10:26

Can the usable core be used as the basis for the domestic turbo prop engine for the family of future RTA, being planned for the country.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Austin » 13 Dec 2014 17:23


Thakur_B
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Dec 2014 17:27

GTRE is calling for engine components from Indian industry. For which engine, that seems to be unclear.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... Micro=7986

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 14 Dec 2014 00:57

After all the flak they took over the Kaveri looks like GTRE will develop stuff under the radar now and announce when they have a workable product.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 14 Dec 2014 18:18



Good article! Rough estimate, what is the percentage of indigenous to imported components in those Koraput engines?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 02 Jan 2015 09:43

Some new features of the new 105-110 kN engine by GTRE have come forth. Maitya sir, you would love this.

Inlet diameter: 820 mm
Mass flow: 98-100 kg/s

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 02 Jan 2015 10:06

A nube question's for on the tender. Who will be the owner of the IPR for the end product??

Also are they looking to add this to the Kabini core for and get a new engine or will this be a new design altogether.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 02 Jan 2015 10:15

Some new features of the new 105-110 kN engine by GTRE have come forth. Maitya sir, you would love this.


Hmm. I had already named this "Ganga". It is the same Kabini core with a new fan stage (more airflow, with higher bypass, core flow remains the same as current Kaveri). Yes, thrust increases, and SFC drops. Note this tender is for a new fan design alone. The co development is not called for the core.

I think they have a working core from the Kabini , along with the necessary high temp materials realised. Only thing is to rename the Kabini as Gangotri!

There really were only two ways to go about this. A new tinku-sa, chickna-sa core (with high temp materials, like the Eco core from M-88) with the current Kaveri LP stage, or a new LP stage with the current Kaveri core (with high temp materials of course). The former for the LCA and the latter for AMCA. The engine for the LCA is really not needed , with the GE engine being available and also local manufacturing possible.

Yeah, a 110 to 120 KN local engine for the AMCA would be great and that is doable if we have the Kabini core working (which I strongly suspect we have). This entire engine is possible within a 5 year time frame (if we get a decent partnership in place, MTU would be a great guys to rope in for the LP stage. They are pretty good in that area and will have least conflict of interest with GTRE . Others like RR, GE, PW, Safran/Snecma will be looking to sell whole engines including hot sections).

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 02 Jan 2015 11:26

indranilroy wrote:Some new features of the new 105-110 kN engine by GTRE have come forth. Maitya sir, you would love this.

Inlet diameter: 820 mm
Mass flow: 98-100 kg/s

This calls for a quick THEORETICAL calc using the quick-&-dirty turbofan sim - here it is:

Image

Ofcourse assuming the already achieved OPR of 21 and TeT of 1723K as in the same Kabini core ... so same thermal and propulsive efficiency etc - betw I'm sure these will increase but not sure by how much!!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_27164 » 02 Jan 2015 12:07

@maitya
from your chart it is clear that basic parameters and 1st order derivatives of current kaveri and ganga are same. so i assume ganga is derivative of kaveri. in such case how will they achieve 100MW work and 88kN dry thrust while current engine does not achieve original design values of 96MW and 76kN respectively? the drdo tender link mentions 'all blisk 3 stage fan'. i did not find mention of blisk in kaveri wiki article (looks like its outdated). so will this blisk technology help in achieving the new figures?
couple of more questions here:
1. tender mentions pressure ratio 5:1 and wiki has mentioned HP and LP pressure ratios. what does 5:1 refer to? LP or HP?
2. indranilroy has mentioned inlet diameter 820mm and wiki mentions 910mm diameter of kaveri (it does not say 'inlet diameter'. but my guess is they are both same.) how will they achieve more mass flow from smaller inlet?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 02 Jan 2015 12:59

aditya_dange wrote:@maitya
from your chart it is clear that basic parameters and 1st order derivatives of current kaveri and ganga are same. so i assume ganga is derivative of kaveri. in such case how will they achieve 100MW work and 88kN dry thrust while current engine does not achieve original design values of 96MW and 76kN respectively? the drdo tender link mentions 'all blisk 3 stage fan'. i did not find mention of blisk in kaveri wiki article (looks like its outdated). so will this blisk technology help in achieving the new figures?
couple of more questions here:
1. tender mentions pressure ratio 5:1 and wiki has mentioned HP and LP pressure ratios. what does 5:1 refer to? LP or HP?
2. indranilroy has mentioned inlet diameter 820mm and wiki mentions 910mm diameter of kaveri (it does not say 'inlet diameter'. but my guess is they are both same.) how will they achieve more mass flow from smaller inlet?

First of all, pls don't take the Dry thrust value prima facie ... while other ratio-based values can be taken. That chart in it's present form is for a turbojet ... and the BPR will ensure the Core massflow to be lower than 100Kg/sec, reducing the Dry Thrust value - which, per my back-of-an-envelope calc, will be closer to 75KN from core alone.
(plus need to add the bypass thrust contribution as well, which without knowing the fan efficiency is quite difficult to predict - though, normally for such low BPR leaky-turbojets, it shouldn't be more than 15-20% addn thrust).

I'll try and upload an updated version tonight - though accurately calculating the Bypass thrust may not be possible.

But even then looking at the Thrust figures (in it's abosolute value form) is not correct ... as the pretty ham-handed nature of assumptions that I'd made to simplify the calc etc (you can have a glimpse of those assumptions in the Kaveri Thread (in the sticky)).

Best way to use this simulator is to do ratio-based comparative-study etc and try to infer conclusions.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 02 Jan 2015 13:29

But even then looking at the Thrust figures (in it's abosolute value form) is not correct ... as the pretty ham-handed nature of assumptions that I'd made to simplify the calc etc (you can have a glimpse of those assumptions in the Kaveri Thread (in the sticky)).


I think these following values will be reasonable assumptions to make of your calculations

1) OPR approx 25, mabye 27 (assuming 26 will work best I think)
2) TeT around 1800K
3) Bypass ratio around 0.4 to 0.5 (0.45 as a value will work well, 0.5 seems on the upper end , while 0.4 will be eminently doable)
4) Wet thrust approx 1.4 X dry thrust

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 03 Jan 2015 17:16

Have updated with simulator (asuming an achieved Fan Pressure Ratio of 4:1) ...
Image

Also pls note have added a newer forecasted model where the core achieves the key performance parameters that was originally specified for Kaveri/Kabini but with this bigger Fan and larges Massflow (and higher BPR of 0.5).


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