Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 14 Jan 2015 04:33

We definitely have a long long way to go.

maitya wrote:We slightly increase the mass flow (by artificially enlarging the core) thru the compressor stages (refer to the Euler turbine equation above) and keep a tight-lease on this temperature increase across HPC stages.
But then that would mean going back by atleast 3-4years and do the whole assembly-testing-flight testing etc etc cycle once again.


You would like this. From the DRDO e-book.
Various tests like aeromechanical mapping, performance mapping, and inlet distortion tolerance tests were carried out. The improved HP Compressor gave 3 per cent improved mass flow rate and increased pressure ratio. 50 h of testing was done at various inlet conditions.


maitya wrote:But there can be a better solution as well.
Can we keep the make the current compressor stages more "heat-resistant" and tide over this. Possible, if we are able to master the casting methodology etc for the intricate internal-cooling-passage-based blade cooling tech (with hollow shafts which would carry-in the cold-air and also carry out (towards the combustor) hot air etc). Pls note until very recently we were importing the wax-and-ceramic based moulds for the HPT stage (for the DS based blades with intricate internal-cooling-passages). But then again that's absolute cutting edge of the compressor blade tech.

Isn't this what DMRL is advertising. They are saying that they got from a hollow blade with a single channel
Image
to something which has multiple channels to handle multiple airflows.
Image

Are you suggesting something like this?
Image

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kailash » 14 Jan 2015 13:14

Thanks for the extremely elightening post maitya ji. Indeed this is a very difficult engineering problem. I dont think anymore that folks at GTRE, DMRL, Midani etc are slacking or assigning less skilled people on the job.

The task IS really so complex that meaniful progress takes technological advances in a lot of different areas. Hope more money is pumped in and there is progress in this area.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 14 Jan 2015 13:18

Gentlemen, having seen the progress made on the various material aspects of a GT design. Can any one enumerate where we are still lacking. When it comes to GT design.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 26 Jan 2015 01:10

Reports coming in that the U.S. n India will explore the possibility of building jet engines in India. Wonder what this will mean n involve. Help on the 115kn Kaveri follow up for the AMCA?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby VinodTK » 26 Jan 2015 04:11

Will wrote:Reports coming in that the U.S. n India will explore the possibility of building jet engines in India. Wonder what this will mean n involve. Help on the 115kn Kaveri follow up for the AMCA?

US to help India design, develop jet engines
Washington has agreed to assist Delhi in sharing, designing and developing jet engines for aircraft—a critical technology that is exclusively owned by a handful of countries—in what is being considered a big step forward in Indo-US defence collaboration.

The assistance comes within months of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) winding up a Russia-backed project to develop Kaveri jet engines after losing more than Rs 2,000 crore and almost three decades.
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The big takeaway is the collaboration on jet engines, to be used in home-grown aircraft. “India and the US have agreed to explore development of jet engine in the country. It would be broader than the Kaveri programme,” said S Jaishankar, Indian Ambassador to the US.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby rgsrini » 26 Jan 2015 06:03

^^It just means that India is in the verge of developing its own Jet engine. Nothing else would explain US interest in "helping" India overcome a hurdle.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sarang » 26 Jan 2015 07:15

It would better be a step further than what is already developed, like veriable cycle and 3D thrust vectoring. :D

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby brar_w » 26 Jan 2015 08:08

Joint collaboration and transfer of technology is based on mutually agreed areas. The list announced includes areas of interest of India where the US is willing to transfer technology. No one wrote a bunch of areas concerning aerospace projects on pieces of paper and drew the first 3 or 4 :). The reports on collaborations on certain tech areas are just those. Extrapolating something totally different from them is a risky proposition. Same applies to EMALS if it is indeed an area where the two parties have agreed to advance the talks and work together. It means that it is a mutually agreed technology of interest.

As far as Variable Cycle engines are concerned, there are no programs of record other than S&T efforts that are fully funded and closed from participation (vendors have already been down-selected all the way till 2018-2020 timeframe). 3D Thrust Vectoring can be easily accommodated (imho) if specifically asked for since GE's proprietary AVEN was offered to Sweden more than a decade ago (a scaled effort to accommodate the F404 family).

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 26 Jan 2015 08:22

All this talk is quite meaningless till India remains on the "export control" list. Even if export of technology or parts is allowed, it has to go through an extremely long and bureaucratic procedure to get approval. That is not what India needs to move ahead faster. Therefore, I would like to know who suggested GoI to seek help in aero engines from USA. If it is from the folks in GTRE, then how is it that USA plans to circumvent the current hurdles in providing technology and parts freely to India. For example, how can India freely buy parts from OEMs, for example hydraulics from Moog?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby brar_w » 26 Jan 2015 08:30

^^ All the barriers are unlikely to all go away in on fell swoop. Bureaucratic hurdles in the pentagon are a pain in the back end for a lot of folks, but if the top leaders are willing to personally get involved (both sides) these barriers can be broken. No one is going to open the flood gates to technology..Its up to both sides to agree on technology of interest where progress can be made. There is nothing stopping India from to also work with other powers in aerospace on engine or other projects.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 26 Jan 2015 10:20

Though on paper, they may be different. But having or not having access to the US OEMs and "Western" OEMs is one and the same thing.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby brvarsh » 26 Jan 2015 10:47

Since when was Kaveri declared a failure? Is the new US Jet Engine collaboration mean Kaveri is dead or rebooted?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Jan 2015 11:30

From the joint statement:

Continuing bilateral engagement on the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI), including the 22 January 2015 agreement in principle to pursue co-production and co-development of four pathfinder projects, form a working group to explore aircraft carrier technology sharing and design, and explore possible cooperation on development of jet engine technology.


"export control list" has been making a lot of noise for ages. If we had a thread for it we would have filled pages.

As the list belongs to the SD, we need to expect resistance. The support from the Pentagon/DD, for more than a decade, is reflected in the form of the DTTI . Things, however, should change and move faster with the alignment between the SD and DD - in the form of the recent trip by Puneet Talwar

Seems that the effort to support the dev of an engine was rather recent and therefore there is bound to be more uncertainty with that topic - as opposed to naval technologies, for which the support has been prolonged and more mature. As we post expect support for the AMCA to be more than the engine.

Give it time, we should expect to see the engine effort mature. IF it does mature India should have a sustainable engine - a better one than one that China will have at the same point in time.

One more OT observation (in my "agenda", sorry). India is if not ahead, on par with nations like the UK and Australia. A few people on both sides have worked a lot to get where things are. When the next SecDef is confirmed expect a boost. Then keep an eye on this "engine". Perhaps even think of a ALCA.

Meanwhile let us see what happens with the AMCA engine - need one with TV IIRC. Dandy.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 26 Jan 2015 12:55

Well with reports that the Kaveri is being wound up. Time to open a new thread on "Indian Jet Engines". :)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sachin_b_k » 26 Jan 2015 15:25

Hmm...all the news about kaveri being wound up seems more like a strategy to keep the engine development away from the snooping media, auditors and parliamentary committee glare. Its too important a project to be shelved that too after the engine actually fructified and works albeit at a lower thrust. Having an indigenous engine for LCA is an absolute must for the path of becoming a serious global military player

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_28108 » 26 Jan 2015 15:26

Will wrote:Well with reports that the Kaveri is being wound up. Time to open a new thread on "Indian Jet Engines". :)


Please note Kaveri is not "wound up" there will be further testing etc.It has completed 15 hours of 85 hours of high altitude testing and testing continues and lessons learnt will be transferred.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2015 00:14

http://idrw.org/?p=56883
Did US and India agreed to work on New F414 engine variant ?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JTull » 27 Jan 2015 00:37

SaiK wrote:
http://idrw.org/?p=56883
Did US and India agreed to work on New F414 engine variant ?


Again a screw driver ToT is being touted as win-win!

Surely, a deeper cooperation is possible.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jan 2015 00:51

They have not even formed the working groups. That article, in true form, is highly speculative - in parts he says so too.

Any engine effort has a very long way to go. A year or two to get started - IF at all they do get started.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2015 00:57

What the media is ignoring is, Kaveri tech is not BS. It is a great engine with huge future scope. All it needs is the experience GE F414 got. But contradiction and opponents will always kill Kaveri to get GE in.

What DRDO must do is ask for IITs, and tech institutions to join in with young minds to correct K versions. We have already succeeded in SC blades (not sure how far it is product-ion-ized). hot-engine is the buzzword, which is nothing but advanced heat-resistant materials and blade designs that cools faster [like rolls-royce's cooling holes on the sc- blades].

few detailed studies by young minds can bring better results at a lower cost.. but, heck, we all can scream. it is GTRE that should take leadership. I still feel, that unit of DRDO needs massive reorg.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby RoyG » 27 Jan 2015 01:00

The US isn't going to hand over its engine tech crown jewels. We may get some tech here and there but at the end of the day we are going to have to develop our own systems by ourselves and steal sensitive technology. There is no other way around this. Open up the defense sector to private players and slowly start winding down DPSU responsibilities. Our higher education also needs a complete revamp.

No major power wants India to be militarily powerful. We have to compete and get out of this begging mentality.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2015 01:05

I have said the same in no better words.. we are having resource crunch here because the way GTRE is organized. Right funds + Right minds, will take the Kaveri to Jupiter next. I wish PMO and MoD realizes K is as important as nuke deals.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby RoyG » 27 Jan 2015 01:22

SaiK wrote:I have said the same in no better words.. we are having resource crunch here because the way GTRE is organized. Right funds + Right minds, will take the Kaveri to Jupiter next. I wish PMO and MoD realizes K is as important as nuke deals.


I'm glad you and most on BRF share the same mentality. We should share Kaveri tech with private industry and have multiple research/design/manufacturing clusters competing against each other. We can't have 1-2 DPSU's responsible for designing our engines. It won't work.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jan 2015 01:25

India can still take the Kaveri forward, nothing to stop that.

The DTTI framework is about co-development. So, what is the end goal of a collaboration, who wants to contribute what, etc.

Long way to go on a topic such as an engine.

However, what *seems* to be good about this (vs. other efforts) is that there is a push at the highest levels to make DTTI work. And, DTTI being a framework, is not product specific.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 27 Jan 2015 05:40

Kaveri is really the stepping stone to India's engine success. It is really the bedrock on which all next generation engines will be based on. Anybody who says that Kaveri is a failure have no idea on what they are talking about. Kaveri (as indeed any other current engine development) is no longer aero-design constrained. The advantages due to aero stuff has platued for sometime now and scientist the world over have kind of caught up. Besides, you can take a working engine, cut it up and study why a certain shape works so well.

Engine development nowadays is materials constrained. Given the same materials and tools, almost all the guys will build engines within 5-10% of one-another. We are at least 15-20 years behind the state-of-art on the materials front. The bad thing is it cannot be reverse engineered. The good thing is that gains in this field are also slow. So if the Indian govt. puts in the necessary funding to set up these research facilities, India can build working prototypes of E200/F414 class of engines in 10-15 years.

GTRE and DMRL should provided the necessary funding to come up with new test rigs and duplicate time critical ones. This is not a new ask. People like Dr. G. Balachandran have asked this for 2 decades now. They should be able to run tests on one rig while the preparing for the next ones on the other.

What I would also like to see is GoI open the doors to manufacturing these engines to all interested parties. I don't foresee anybody else to even bid except Bharat Forge, but one never knows HAL already has a HUGE advantage of existing infrastructure, trained manpower and experience. If they still cry in the face of competition, let them!

P.S. People visiting Aero India should enquire about the HAL 25 kN HTFE.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JTull » 27 Jan 2015 15:12

US engine tech is with pvt companies. It is not for their govt to give it away in any form. Without adequate compensation or guaranteed orders, this will not happen. Very different scenario from Brahmos!

And how can India guarantee anything without seeing the tech benefits first, unless we're only getting mature tech.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Jan 2015 15:18

The answer, there are no shortcuts, we must have our own R&D and govt policy of orders cutting the Huge Arms agent coterie like Nandas etc.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Sagar G » 27 Jan 2015 18:39

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · Jan 25

The Kaveri engine performed for 57 hours continuously during tests in Russia, whereas the Chinese WS-10 could not.


No surprises that Murica suddenly wants to "co-develop" engines with us.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2015 19:00

I see a vision, but the product users are different. This is the problem, and Amir Khans clearly know how to handle it because they have done it and CMMI-ed it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Sagar G » 27 Jan 2015 19:19

SaiK wrote:I have said the same in no better words.. we are having resource crunch here because the way GTRE is organized.


Please elaborate on the structuring of GTRE and how is that causing resource crunch ???

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jan 2015 20:20

First order of importance is the engine for the AMCA. Let us wait and see what happens there. It *just may* provide an indicator for what could happen with the DTTI effort.

Second, materials (as mentioned) + manufacturing is the focus. As mentioned about a decade behind on materials, I would suspect even more on manufacturing.

DTTI is not about the old models - number of orders, etc. The situation is still very fluid, but there was talk of India wanting to participate in things like paint for stealth objects (point being what kind of "orders" can we envision there?). There is a lot more to all this than the traditional thinking.

Note that the DTTI model was started in 2005 (after years of talking) and it has just about started to take shape. Not even a project has been agreed to outside some nebulous notes on carrier and engine. It will need time ...... is it an entire engine that they want to talk about, enhancing somethign already there, ........ who knows. The Kaveri effort may or may not be the starting point. The starting point could be a coupel of engine components from both sides, no one knows. The engine effort could be a dud (i do not expect this option, but ..........)

The only thing that is sure is that the DTTI framework will advance (for another 10 years for now). For one, there are enough very high level people on both sides that have been pushing it (for 10 years now). And, India has now, under NaMo, slowly decided to be a real global player: Note a data point on India willing to participate in dealing with the IS (among other things). DTTI is only a small cog in that larger wheel.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6866&p=1786360#p1786360

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Feb 2015 16:26

X posting from missiles, thread.

indranilroy wrote:It is not welded Singha ji. The blades and the disk are a single piece. This is called a BLISK.



this was one of the areas we were lacking in no?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sooraj » 20 Feb 2015 18:56

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 9h 9 hours ago

GTRE was deprived of any funds for a period of 3 years after the Kaveri performed well on the IL-76 testbed in Russki land.
:-o

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby devesh » 20 Feb 2015 19:05

The true extent of how UPA screwed India's defense preparedness might never be known. Their actions are an outright betrayal.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 20 Feb 2015 19:09

take it with a pinch of salt, what they needed was test beds in twin engine aircraft which were not provided because of rapid attrition of main force and delay in mmrca. India does not function like this where a single govt can on the whole scale disrupt programs. If so, the bureaucrats (there are some well-meaning ones everywhere) would have leaked it left, right and centre.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Prasad » 20 Feb 2015 21:19

Funding should be easily traceable, especially to a large lab like gtre.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 20 Feb 2015 21:22

devesh wrote:The true extent of how UPA screwed India's defense preparedness might never be known. Their actions are an outright betrayal.


+2.

For all we know it may well be that its India that nuke-nude and not Bakistan. Wouldn't be surpirsed in the you pee yay sold our N-deterrent down the drain too. Sigh.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Mar 2015 19:11

HAL unveils engine for Trainers, Biz Jets
By SP's Special Correspondent

March 07, 2015: HAL's ambitions of entering the aircraft engine space in a meaningful manner have become clear now. While the development of high performance combat aircraft engines are being left to the DRDO's GTRE and its international partners, HAL has unveiled the HTFE-25 (Hindustan Turbofan Engine 25) that will be pitched to power trainer aircraft and business jets in the twin engine configuration. The 25 kN turbofan engine, slim in design, is 1,730mm long, 590mm in diameter and weighs 350 kg. The HTFE-25 is a low bypass twin spool mixed flow turbofan engine with wide chord fan blades, sports a high efficiency compressor and advanced combustor. The engine is controlled by full authority digital engine control (FADEC). The medium thrust engine could be pitched also for unmanned air systems of the future. The HTFE-25 is being developed as a fully in-house effort funded through internal accruals. HAL projects that the engine could be ready for operational service by 2018. The company has already begin testing waters abroad and in India for possible utilisation of the 25 kN engine, including with private players looking to build aircraft in the country.

http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=468&q=HAL-unveils-engine-for-Trainers-Biz-Jets

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karan_mc » 01 Apr 2015 16:18

GTRE and Klimov agree to develop Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle

Why Backdoor Talks with Russians ? Wasn't AMCA engine coming from GE ?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vishvak » 01 Apr 2015 19:42

Per link above,
that thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology offered can be matted with engines of any OEM’s even if engines are from United states. India will commence development work on Homegrown 5th generation fighter aircraft project which as per IAF request will have thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN).

India is yet to select engines for AMCA, but Russians have assured India that even if India selects American or European engines for AMCA Project, they can customise it for their engines. While Europeans have developed their own TVN technology for Eurojet EJ200 engines and Americans to have their own technology.


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