Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Jul 2015 19:35

If so any takers?

NRao, Am thinking we should name this GTRE thread as Kaveri is dead, long live GTRE!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Jul 2015 09:04

Rs 2,101 crore spent on development of indigenous Kaveri engine: Here's why there's been a delay

The following are some of the major reasons for non-completion of project within the time-schedule, as cited by Parrikar in his written reply:

1) Technological difficulties faced during development due to complexities of engine system.

2) Non-availability of raw materials/critical components

3) Lack of infrastructure/manufacturing/test facilities within the country

4) Non-availability of skilled/technical manpower in the field of aero-engine technology

5) Increase in scope during development

Although there has been delay in development of aero-engine due to reasons stated above, DRDO for the first time ventured to initiate development of aero-engine technology, which only few developed countries in the world possess. The following are some of the major milestones achieved in this programme

> Successful completion of 73 hours High Altitude testing and 57 hours trial on Flying Test Bed have proved level of technological capability and maturity.

> Full Authority Digital Engine Control System has been designed, developed and qualified indigenously.

> Twelve materials have been indigenously developed and type certified.

> Total of 9 Kaveri prototypes and 4 Kaveri Core Engine prototypes have been developed and accumulated more than 2550 hours of engine testing.

> Kaveri Engine was integrated with IL-76 Aircraft and flight tested.

> Tacit knowledge acquired by the scientists are being applied in aerospace technology and other disciplines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Philip » 31 Jul 2015 10:55

The DM just announced in the House that Kaveri failed to meet Tejas requirements,but the core would be used in the UCAV.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 31 Jul 2015 11:42

Mango Man question - In what aspects it failed?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_22539 » 31 Jul 2015 12:22

^Mostly weight and materials. Thrust is not as much as currently required (due to weight increase of LCA), but I think the original aims with regard to thrust were more or less met.

In the end, it seems we have achieved what we possibly could with our technology and materials, and it has shown us our limitations, which will be focused on and overcome in the future.

Of course, I am no expert. This is just my understanding. :)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Aug 2015 04:37

* SK too is seeking what India is from the US
* Confirmed that Indians are very advanced in high tmp met sci. Very lousy in practical applications. I IS leads in top notch research. But not one is willing to get hands dirty. Perhaps no incentives

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby svinayak » 01 Aug 2015 10:10

Arun Menon wrote:
In the end, it seems we have achieved what we possibly could with our technology and materials, and it has shown us our limitations, which will be focused on and overcome in the future.



Usually national mission is created to get the capability , acquire it and develop the capability
APJ Kalam I recall from news reports in 1995 talked about building the capability for a aviation engine within 5-10 years.
State resources are used for acquiring anything the state wants

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_22539 » 01 Aug 2015 10:17

^But I don't think Kaveri project ever was a "national mission." It never got that kind of funding or freedom or focus or facilities. On the other hand, we MUST make it a national mission, because it is critical that we master jet engine tech.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2015 19:23

A new Russian hypersonic engine capable of propelling an aircraft up to 9,000 kmh will be unveiled during the MAKS-2015 air show in Zhukovsky, outside Moscow.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/2015082 ... z3jeM8aDge

"For rig tests, the Institute has designed a module of a hydrogen supersonic combusting ramjet. During tests under simulated flight conditions at speeds of Mach 7.4, the engine delivered forward thrust,"


at mach 7.4, what would be g's the pilots will face?
getting around 250 ish.. did i bungle?
http://www.procato.com/convert/0/

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Ramesh » 23 Aug 2015 20:18

There will be pilot is an assumption. Yes, there will be stress on instruments.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Aug 2015 04:12

valid point! but there exists still a chance to man it given the right pit to take the gs.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 24 Aug 2015 20:22

G is a measure of acceleration, not speed.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 14 Nov 2015 05:05

Government set to clear Rs 3,000 crore plan to develop engine for for India's first UCAV

NEW DELHI: The Narendra Modi government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000-crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.

Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan is the proposed participation of the private sector in a significant way.

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high-end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby saumitra_j » 14 Nov 2015 10:50

Sir posting that article in full, has a lot of interesting nuggets:

NEW DELHI: The Narendra Modi government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000­ crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.
Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan is the proposed participation of the private sector in a significant way.

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high­ end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.

The Indian UCAV project is tentatively called Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft (AURA). The target is to get the system operational within eight years once the funds are cleared by the government, officials said. The original Kaveri project was meant to power the light combat aircraft but it got shelved as the engine could not deliver sufficient thrust for the fighter aircraft. In its revived avatar, the engine will be modified and its afterburners will be removed to power the first Indian UCAV. While a similar plan was mooted by the state ­run Defence Research & Development Organisation ( DRDO) during the term of the previous United Progressive Alliance government, the body had pegged the project cost at close to Rs 800 crore at the time. However, the then government did not clear funds for the project. :x

The main challenge in getting AURA operational, according to experts, is its central theme of stealth. The drone is being designed to be invisible to radars with its radical 'flying wing design'. The absence of a 'tail' to guide and manoeuvre the drone will require advanced programming and a cutting edge flight control system to keep it in the air. Besides AURA, India is currently working on at least one more futuristic combat aircraft programme — the Advanced Multi­Role Combat Aircraft, or AMCA, aimed at developing a manned fighter jet.


So Kaveri is progressing - to me this sounds like the first step towards industrialisation of the engine! Stealth et al is the new technology here, they are going to use the stripped down version of the Kaveri - India's first commercially successful Jet engine being made here (albeit for a UCAV but I will live with it!)!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_29247 » 14 Nov 2015 12:07

Not so fast seeing is believing

This Ghatak Rustom ( I don't know who comes with $exy names) all are great announcements withi periodic pronouncements that it's about fly, will be ready in ..".. Months

We don't have basic products in place, see recent report of balloon imports from Israel...
Paarklam

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby saumitra_j » 14 Nov 2015 13:08

^ Agree but at least the building blocks are in place and funding is being provided - UPA 2 did not even do that!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Nov 2015 13:35

Saumitra, exactly - until this report came out we'd believe the UCAV was a funded "black" program and DRDO/GTRE were doing nothing & Spinster would share his periodic acerbic comments on the same.

Now we know the damn program was not even funded till now.

All funds to NREGA boondoggles no doubt.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Nov 2015 13:45

>>So Kaveri is progressing - to me this sounds like the first step towards industrialisation of the engine! Stealth et al is the new technology here, they are going to use the stripped down version of the Kaveri - India's first commercially successful Jet engine being made here (albeit for a UCAV but I will live with it!)!

This has to be seen in combination with the new test range
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2015/10/or ... -next.html

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_22539 » 14 Nov 2015 15:34

^+1 (you have to stop making these wonderful posts or I am going to have to do this in every thread :D)

Yep, only now are basic infrastructure and program funding even being made available. UPA was on its way to smother everything indigenous. Thank the gods that they were kicked out when they were.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby saumitra_j » 14 Nov 2015 15:36

Thanks Karan, as we connect all the reports together, it is clear that India is doing what we jingos really want and most importantly, they are being funded! Let's see how the execution happens from here on, although I am pretty confident we will finally see a lot of success in the years to come! On previous pages, PankajS had also quoted Saurav Jha saying the same things about Kaveri:

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 11m11 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
Development of the Kaveri core for UCAV applications is progressing well.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 34m34 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
Work on new gas turbine related testing facilities is underway. land has been acquired.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 30m30 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi >>

* And as I had said earlier, a strategic decision to perfect a 80 KN domestic engine has been made. And the kaveri program is being expanded under a new name.
* The design can be up-rated to even 90 KN. But some patriotic 'NRI' support can come in handy for that.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_27581 » 14 Nov 2015 16:33

Karan Sir is in full form these days!

One question to gurus here, did we ever make a bid to purchase this technology from Russians on the lines we had done with US under the DTTI? Afterall don't we have a long history

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gyan » 14 Nov 2015 16:43

This project will get caught in tender and selection process for ever and everrrr. Look at FICV.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vipul » 14 Nov 2015 16:53

Government set to clear Rs 3,000 crore plan to develop engine for India's first UCAV.

The Narendra Modi government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000­ crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.

Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan is the proposed participation of the private sector in a significant way.

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high­end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 15 Nov 2015 04:44

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/tech/bae- ... =obnetwork

Hypersonic rocket engine could 'revolutionize' air travel

BAE Systems makes big investment in Reaction Engines 04:44

Image

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gyan » 15 Nov 2015 10:50

Is the new Proposal for UAV Kaveri based engine connected to RFI issued by DRDO for 20 engines of 80kn category?

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/drdojsp/dow ... CATION.pdf

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cybaru » 15 Nov 2015 11:58

If those jags are getting re-engined, why can't we use the older jag engines for our UCAV? Why waste em? There will be close to 120 engines available..

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 15 Nov 2015 15:09

^ 240 engines from 120 planes. The Jag has afterburner , unsuitable for UCAV. May be worth a try, if a/b can be removed. HAL builds both versions (with / without) for Jag / Hawk.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 15 Nov 2015 15:17

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjABahUKEwiW76n6npLJAhUCC44KHT7nAUc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublications.drdo.gov.in%2Fojs%2Findex.php%2Fdsj%2Farticle%2FviewFile%2F6007%2F3132&usg=AFQjCNEuduJutDB0kh_uYNn8qvRC5OshjA

Old 1985 DRDO Paper :

> Why Flat Rating
> TeT 1450 deg. K
> Higher thrust - DS / SC blade
> Control Law for flat rating

Hope Maitya Sir considers worthy to include in Project BRF: Kaveri saga

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cybaru » 16 Nov 2015 09:35

The Adour engine, which the jaguar has is being used for both the Neuron and Taranis UCAV projects.

If we really replace the jaguar engines, why waste those engines? There is plenty of life left on those. Even if they have little life, we can replace them 2-3 times during the life of the UAV as we will really have 240 engines sitting on a shelf somewhere. There are very similar to power to the ones used in the NG's Triton project. This will save tons of money for the project.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 16 Nov 2015 19:17

Cybaru wrote:If those jags are getting re-engined, why can't we use the older jag engines for our UCAV? Why waste em? There will be close to 120 engines available..

Good point

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 16 Nov 2015 20:30

There have bits and pieces of news coming out on the Kaveri "follow on" engine but is there really anything concrete happening? High time proper test facilities were setup for Jet engines in the country including flying testbeds. Experience gained in the kaveri development just cant be wasted.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Nick_S » 17 Nov 2015 03:28

Cybaru wrote:If those jags are getting re-engined, why can't we use the older jag engines for our UCAV? Why waste em? There will be close to 120 engines available..


MTCR.... Adour is UK IP. They wont allow its use in Indian UCAVs.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Nov 2015 03:44

The UACV will have a radius of 300 mms. Promise.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cybaru » 17 Nov 2015 03:52

Nick_S wrote:
Cybaru wrote:If those jags are getting re-engined, why can't we use the older jag engines for our UCAV? Why waste em? There will be close to 120 engines available..


MTCR.... Adour is UK IP. They wont allow its use in Indian UCAVs.


http://www.mtcr.info/english/FAQ-E.html
MTCR seeks to limit the risks of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by controlling exports of goods and technologies that could make a contribution to delivery systems (other than manned aircraft) for such weapons. In this context, the Regime places particular focus on rockets and unmanned aerial vehicles capable of delivering a payload of at least 500 kg to a range of at least 300 km and on equipment, software, and technology for such systems.

We can work around it... 250 kms and 499 kgs and the engines are paid for. They are ours.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Nov 2015 19:33

Those engines must be close to the end of their lives. Nobody will swap out perfectly functioning engines with significant life left.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 17 Nov 2015 20:26

^^ Also, since its older gen, its quite large for the thrust it provides when compared with current gen tech. The HAL 25kN engine (which is scalable to 35-40kN range) has much smaller dia. If I remember correctly, from the AI2015 Seminar on HAL engine, the difference in diameter is like 600mm vs 450mm. Also its much more longer due to more number/bigger stages. This would increase size of the craft to be designed too much unnecessarily. Once the life is over, re-engine will be a significant design effort.

Sure, we can think of making some cheap/crude drones around these engines. But for a futuristic project, better to use some newer engine.

How much would be the thrust of the Kaveri based engine for UCAV?? If they are removing only the afterburner, it should be ~50kN, but if they gonna keep only the turbojet part (kabini) stripping the bypass fan/duct, then thrust would be 30ish kN.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 24 Nov 2015 14:36

http://aviationweek.com/technology/cfm- ... Track=true
Still in the midst of the most intense test effort in its 41-year history, CFM International is poised for simultaneous European and U.S. certification of the Leap-1A, the first of its next-generation engine family destined to power the Airbus A320neo.

Although engine certification is expected on Nov. 20, details of the specific A320neo flight test campaign, along with those planned by Comac for the recently rolled out Leap-1C-powered C919, and by Boeing, remain closely held as a prerogative of the manufacturers. Pitched head-to-head with Pratt & Whitney’s PW1100G on the A320neo, Airbus has maintained a close watch on the release of official information for competition-sensitive reasons on the virtually parallel development tracks for the two engines.

However, with certification of the first major model completed, CFM is able for the first time to provide Aviation Week with the most in-depth review yet of the engine-maker’s side of the test campaign and to offer some perspective on the behind-the-scenes efforts underway.

Since launching the Leap program, already the largest test effort CFM has undertaken, the General Electric-Snecma joint venture has added more engines to support the “ABC” (Airbus, Boeing, Comac) trio. Part of the reason is the enormous wave of orders for the Leap family, which—with at least seven months still to go before entry into service on the A320neo—stands at just under 10,000 engines. The CFM56, in contrast, passed the same milestone in 1995, some 21 years after the launch of the company and 14 years after entry into service on the DC-8.

“We didn’t know that, of course, as we started to prepare,” says CFM Executive Vice President Francois Bastin. “What was very clear for us is that it is a reengining program. That means [if] the aircraft will be on time, we have responsibility for the schedule, and we will have to do it. In our mind we were acutely conscious that no one has ever done this before, so our response to that is, ‘Let’s do it like we’ve never done it before. Let’s not be scared of what we have to do.’”

Comprising 34 CFM engineering test engines and 48 “ABC” compliance engines, the full test effort is scheduled to include 82 Leap-1A/B and -Cs. “In addition, we have more than 20 engine test stands and two flying testbeds. At no time in history can we find such a commitment over such a short span of time,” says CFM President Jean-Paul Ebanga.

The partners provisioned the test infrastructure to handle the additional workload. “We are not different or better than anyone, but we knew we would do the job and make investments to reach our objectives,” says Bastin, who cites the development of a new 12-meter (39-ft.) indoor closed test cell for fan blade-out conditions at Villaroche, France, as an example. “We opened four brand-new test cells to be ready for the expansive test program we had designed: two in Belgium, one in Poland and one in France, on top of the ones we had already prepared for Leap in Villaroche,” he says. “We wanted overkill, to make sure we were prepared for risk mitigation at all stages of the program. That’s why we ran so many component tests on the [composite] fan. The fan has been a gigantic technology maturation program, so the same spirit was taken to the whole test program as it unfolded. We cannot afford to have a bottleneck or to make compromises—we have to be battle-ready for this.”

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2015 13:58

Great Podcast about what is happening in engines. Well worth a listen
http://aviationweek.com/technology/podc ... Track=true

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Dec 2015 12:20

IBN

WASHINGTON: The United States has updated its policy on gas-turbine engine technology transfer to India, a move that should lead to expanded cooperation in production and design of jet-engine components, a joint statement said on Thursday.

US Defense Secretary Ash Carter informed Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar of the decision during the latter's visit to Washington this week and said it was made possible by the strengthening relationship between two countries.

"As a result of this policy update, the Secretary is confident that the United States will be able to expand cooperation in production and design of jet-engine components," the joint statement said.

It said the two sides looked forward to US companies working with their Indian counterparts "to submit transfer requests that will benefit from this updated policy."

The statement gave no details of the policy update and a Pentagon spokesman was unable to provide more information.

The United States has become one of the main sources of weapons for the Indian military, and under Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make-in-India" programme has offered joint development and production of military technologies.

The scope of this Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) has so far been modest because of concerns about intellectual property protection on the part of US companies.

In June, Mr Carter and Mr Parrikar signed a new 10-year defence cooperation pact and sealed an agreement for joint development of protective gear for soldiers against biological and chemical warfare, and another on building generators.

In August, the two sides also held an inaugural working-level meeting aimed at establishing broader cooperation on the design, development and production of aircraft carriers.

Mr Parrikar told a joint news conference on Thursday that he had told Mr Carter of India's desire for further collaboration in higher-end technologies under DTTI.

He said "many" more DTTI initiatives could be expected that would involve technology transfers and US firms setting up production facilities in India.

"This enhanced cooperation will definitely result in a great deal of things coming out in the next six months," he said without elaborating.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JTull » 11 Dec 2015 15:56

Turbomeca's Ardiden 3C engine has been provided to the Chinese for their AC352.

Ardiden 1 series (Shakti) used by HAL has 1400 shp, while the Ardiden 3 series will be 1700 to 2000 shp.


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