Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Sep 2016 08:51

shiv wrote: Whenever I try to imagine why we did this my mind simply takes me in the direction of concluding that as a people we have zero esteem in our own work and will always look at some foreign entity as far better. This attitude exists in govt and the armed forces as well as the public sphere. If the Chinese are ahead it is because they are willing to give their own people a chance and accept failures (even if they do not make failures public). We consider ourselves failed even before we start

Well, only partly true. If a Hira Walchand could beg, borrow and steal under colonial rule to initiate "indigenous" building of ships and aircrafts leading to the birth of the Vizag and HAL, one can hope that a few Hira's are still around and can maneuver the statist structures and break the logjam? I know you are a skeptic, when it comes to private industry being able to do any magic, maybe not but I am convinced they are part of the answer.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Sep 2016 08:55

The Pvt industry can only work if it has orders. No orders equals no industry.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 29 Sep 2016 15:01

One solution to this is government funding for specific projects in the private sector with the winner of the competition getting a massive order. This is what is done in the west

habal · Post by **habal** » 29 Sep 2016 15:48

>> It is ironic that GTRE first made the HJE 2500 (for the HF 24) and now the Kaveri and our nation has not bothered to design a single aircraft around an engine we have

I think the UAV is the solution that has been envisioned as a test platform for the kaveri. When a drone flies with Kaveri, there is no stigma of failure and no pressure for performing. This seems to be the reasoning.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Sep 2016 15:55

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:X-posting from Raffy thread
Don't think there's anything wrong in Kabini core, else they would have never achieved dry thrust design value. The short fall is in wet thrust. IMO they should not have gone for flat rating. It was too much to chew in first bite.
There is nothing wrong with the core - but the problem is increased demand for thrust from the Kaveri for LCA - and what I heard was that this is not going to be possible without redesigning the core. Anyhow this information is itself 7-8 years old now.

Actually its not a necessity that core needs to be redesigned for increasing thrust. One can increase fan size - that is increase BPR. But then that will increase engine dia which will not fit in LCA probably. That boat has sailed long ago now anyway.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Sep 2016 16:31

Lca is an Indian design. The Ada can easily figure out how much needs to change in order to make the revised Kaveri fit the plane. If the issue is Blade diameter.

Just understand that the UK modified the Phantom with RR engine.

habal · Post by **habal** » 29 Sep 2016 17:12

UAV engine is without afterburner ? So we shall never improve upon wet thrust in UAV design. Is this correct ?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Sep 2016 19:13

Pratyush wrote:Lca is an Indian design. The Ada can easily figure out how much needs to change in order to make the revised Kaveri fit the plane. If the issue is Blade diameter.

Just understand that the UK modified the Phantom with RR engine.

I don't think, Kaveri will ever fly in LCA MK1A (apart from development/expt flight). Sad but reality. Let's face it. And MK2 has 98kN requirement which Kaveri can't match without core redesign.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Sep 2016 19:19

ShauryaT wrote:
shiv wrote: Whenever I try to imagine why we did this my mind simply takes me in the direction of concluding that as a people we have zero esteem in our own work and will always look at some foreign entity as far better. This attitude exists in govt and the armed forces as well as the public sphere. If the Chinese are ahead it is because they are willing to give their own people a chance and accept failures (even if they do not make failures public). We consider ourselves failed even before we start
Well, only partly true. If a Hira Walchand could beg, borrow and steal under colonial rule to initiate "indigenous" building of ships and aircrafts leading to the birth of the Vizag and HAL, one can hope that a few Hira's are still around and can maneuver the statist structures and break the logjam? I know you are a skeptic, when it comes to private industry being able to do any magic, maybe not but I am convinced they are part of the answer.

Walchand did his work at a time when there was great demand from US armed forces for war materiel. There definitely is demand in India but the mindset is (in my view) looking at foreign solutions which may be totally unobtainable. Will say more about this in the small arms thread but not today. Today is a day for me to thank the Indian army.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 04 Oct 2016 12:11

^^^^ The complexity of the manufacturing SC blades, their various Gens (and how a modern DS blade has better thermo-mechanical properties compared to 1st and even 2nd Gen SCs) and also inter-relationship of the TeT (obtained from better metallurgical tech of SCs etc) and the OPR (from better HPC tech) etc are detailed in various posts in the following:
1. The Kaveri Saga - India's attempt to build a modern Turbofan.

2. The SC Advantage

3. The upthrusting dilemma

4. Various options of up-thrusting Kaveri

Pls refresh and then we can discuss further.

Admins, can you pls delete my post just above this one (it's a duplicate post).

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Oct 2016 01:30

SaiK wrote:sJha tweet should be music to the ears if true.

ps: some contend it to be old news though. may be he is trying social engineer a solution

I saw SJha's tweet. Indeed we have discussed this 2600Cr funding here on BRF previously in this very thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&start=2960#p2024478

Quick google search shows earliest post from IRDW from Feb-2016

Things are moving too slow on this front. Its almost 3 yrs and Mig29 is nowhere to be seen.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 20 Nov 2016 19:58

DRDO ties up with Snecma to revive gas turbine engine for Tejas
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 534_1.html

India’s defence research agency has signed a deal with French engine maker Snecma to revive and certify the Kaveri engine, before powering a flight of Tejas light combat aircraft prototype by 2018.

Snecma, as part of the offsets deal for the 36 Rafale jets India bought for its air force, would handhold the Gas turbine and research establishment (GTRE), which has designed Kaveri, to fix gaps in its performance, address safety concerns, certify and fly it on a Tejas light combat aircraft. The Rs 600 odd crore expense for Snecma, which powers the Rafale jets, would be adjusted against the 50 per cent offsets that it is mandated to spend in India.

The Kaveri project has been on the backburner for nearly a decade after GTRE, an agency of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), struggled to reduce its weight and improve its performance needed to power the fighter. So far, the government has spent Rs 2,100 crore on the engine that has tested on ground for over 3,000 hours and around 30 hours on a IL-76 transport plane in Russia. It has a marine variant that the Navy is testing and it is in talks with Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd and the Indian Railways to power rail engines.

“Once the engine houses make it a flightworthy engine, we have numerous programmes coming up and there is more than one place for it to be fitted. The question is whether we will be able to fit it into only the LCA or will we be able to get it into the (GE) 414 with the higher power is a point that we are raising,” said C P Ramanarayanan, DRDO Director General for Aeronautics cluster said.

The Indian Air Force has ordered for over 120 single engine Tejas fighters powered by a General Electric 404 engine, the powerplant the aircraft first flew in January 2001. So far the Tejas has flown nearly 3,300 sorties, which includes sorties by IAF chief Arup Raha and the air chief of Turkmenistan.

An upgraded Mark-2 aircraft of Tejas is being designed for a more heavier GE-414 engine by 2025, and the DRDO hopes that the upgraded Kaveri would qualify for the plane by then.

If not, the Kaveri would power other programmes such as Ghatak, the unmanned combat aircraft vehicle of UCAV, for which studies have begun by the research agency.

“So we have Ghatak in our hand, we have so many other programmes coming up. Anyway we have to have indigenous engine development also. All that we are trying to do is trying to allocate one of the prototype for this and make use of some of the offset for this hand holding if possible,” said Ramnarayanan.

India is among the few countries in the world such as Russia, Britain, US and France to have capabilities to build a gas turbine engine.

The chief of Aeronautical Development Agency Commodore C D Balaji said that the agency expects around 40 aircraft of the 123 planes ordered by the IAF would be delivered by 2020 and the remaining 83 by 2025. He said the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is doubling its production of Tejas to 16 from eight.

sarang · Post by **sarang** » 21 Nov 2016 07:44

If 98-110 kN happens, it will be the biggest day for indian aviation.

or they are going for plain vanilla 90 kN.

either ways, very good news.

Rammpal · Post by **Rammpal** » 21 Nov 2016 11:53

JayS wrote:
Actually its not a necessity that core needs to be redesigned for increasing thrust. One can increase fan size - that is increase BPR. But then that will increase engine dia which will not fit in LCA probably. That boat has sailed long ago now anyway.

Where's the extra power gonna come from, for the bigger fan ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Nov 2016 11:58

if the kaveri can be proven (even in dry thrust mode) on a high endurance UCAV and Tejas testbed will definitely move things forward and encourage people. will permit derivatives tuned to applications.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 21 Nov 2016 12:07

Rammpal wrote:
JayS wrote:
Actually its not a necessity that core needs to be redesigned for increasing thrust. One can increase fan size - that is increase BPR. But then that will increase engine dia which will not fit in LCA probably. That boat has sailed long ago now anyway.

Where's the extra power gonna come from, for the bigger fan ?

There are many ways of upthrusting ... just scroll up a few posts and you will find links of some of those options. If further detailed understanding is required, the Kaveri sticky thread is there for reference etc.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 21 Nov 2016 12:17

^^^^ However I doubt such upthursting etc (from 51KN dry to 65KN dry levels) can be achieved in 2 years etc ... the testing cycle itself will span atleast 2-3years.

I think, realistically, what they are trying to do with Snecma (as a consultative partner) is completing the mandatory ground-runs (IIRC there were about 1000hr more left, an year or so back) required before it can be certified for integration into, first a double-engined platform (MiG-29 or a Su-30MKI testbed), followed by ultimately to a single-engine platform (say a LCA TD or a PV).
Not sure if anymore subsonic actual flying hrs (say in a IL-76) are required or not, though.

But overall good news, as it will brings in invaluable certification related experience and know-how etc.

Betw those enamored with the shiny-toys etc, all in the name of "defending the country etc" ... 500Cr just for 2yr consultancy support!! While the decades worth of investment into the program is approx 2000Cr, right?
There is, after all, a reason for us being ruled by the East India Company for ~2 centuries - where can you find more gullible people than us!!!!

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 21 Nov 2016 12:57

Betw those enamored with the shiny-toys etc, all in the name of "defending the country etc" ... 500Cr just for 2yr consultancy support!! While the decades worth of investment into the program is approx 2000Cr, right?
There is, after all, a reason for us being ruled by the East India Company for ~2 centuries - where can you find more gullible people than us!!!!

statement only true, if lack of fund is only reason for unsuccessful Kaveri and 500cr spend would have brought it to completion.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Nov 2016 23:09

Rammpal wrote:
JayS wrote:
Actually its not a necessity that core needs to be redesigned for increasing thrust. One can increase fan size - that is increase BPR. But then that will increase engine dia which will not fit in LCA probably. That boat has sailed long ago now anyway.

Where's the extra power gonna come from, for the bigger fan ?

The path for increase in performance over the designed value is set right at the preliminary design stage. This is specified as design requirement typically. For example, About 5% more thrust can be generated by small tinkering in design due to better design tools over the time/increasing TIT/improving efficiency of the components. About 10% increase should be possible with some serious redesign of compressors in addition to the changes for 5%. Upto 20% thrust increase can be achieved by redesigning LP system for higher mass flow rate in addition to all above changes. Hope you get the idea. The flowpath is designed right from the onset keeping in mind this growth plan. So its OK to assume about 20% organic up-thrust potential in the design. Beyond that it becomes difficult and a fresh sheet design is better idea.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Nov 2016 23:15

maitya wrote:^^^^ However I doubt such upthursting etc (from 51KN dry to 65KN dry levels) can be achieved in 2 years etc ... the testing cycle itself will span atleast 2-3years.

I think, realistically, what they are trying to do with Snecma (as a consultative partner) is completing the mandatory ground-runs (IIRC there were about 1000hr more left, an year or so back) required before it can be certified for integration into, first a double-engined platform (MiG-29 or a Su-30MKI testbed), followed by ultimately to a single-engine platform (say a LCA TD or a PV).
Not sure if anymore subsonic actual flying hrs (say in a IL-76) are required or not, though.

I do not expect any upthrust in given time frame. Even the existing engine should take fair bit of time to get fully certified for single engine Jet. I bet on at least 4yrs. If it happens before that I'll eat my hat..

However if thy start on uprated version rightaway, it should be possible to have a certified 90kN class engine by 2025. But we will need something like 5000Cr investment for that.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 29 Dec 2016 12:35

New tender from HAL:
Supply of 300 Single crystal blades for Tech demonstrator for new HAL engine

Seems to be an addendum to a tender issues earlier here containing the technical specifications of the SC blades here.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 29 Dec 2016 19:26

JayS wrote: Actually its not a necessity that core needs to be redesigned for increasing thrust. One can increase fan size - that is increase BPR. But then that will increase engine dia which will not fit in LCA probably. That boat has sailed long ago now anyway.

How difficult can it be to slightly increase the diameter of the plane?

I know stuff will have to be re-certified but even so, is it not possible.

F-16 has had radical surgery to its frame during its development.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Feb 2017 05:52

Safran has posted a new job opening for a Director/Program Manager for the Kaveri engine program, indicating that the Safran offset related help, derived from the Rafale contract's offset obligations, is going ahead. This was posted on another forum by a French poster

Safran job posting for a Director/Program Manager on Kaveri program

JOB DESCRIPTION

Primary branch / Main trade
Program & Customer Relations - Program
View Full Profile
Director / Program Manager KAVERI - Military Engines M / F
Contract Type
CDI
Status
Engineer & Executive
Work time
Full time
Mission Description
Within the program management division, in liaison with the designated correspondents of the other entities of Safran Aircraft Engines, and in particular, the technical management, the quality management, the industrial management and the commercial management, the program director Kaveri will have the following tasks:

- Lead the team Kaveri program
- Establish the project schedule and identify, in accordance with the PROMPT methodology, key program milestones, consistent with the challenges and milestones of the contract and the Rafale India contract associated offsets,
- Ensure the control and coordination of all activities on the program, including consistent with the M88 program
- Ensure the profitability of the engine and its future support system, identify performance improvement axes economic,
- Ensure coherence of actions regarding developments / improvements / changes in the product (via meetings team from program)
- Manage the actions of the Company and the Group regarding this program ensuring overall consistency in cost, quality and deadlines
- ensure customer satisfaction in meeting the commitments,
- define, validate and allocate budgets of all functions involved in the program
- ensure always the risk management,
- ensure implementation M20 process (PROMPT) "pilot Programs",
- Ensure, in collaboration with the technical authority, flight safety,
- ensure, as part of the process P20, the control key actions leading to compliance with project milestones.
Complement of the description
With the support of the program team, it will:

- Make live staking program:

o Validate the deliverables prior to submission review milestone
o Ensure the answers and closure recommendations

- Adapt the organization & the pilotage Phases of the program
Position Specifications
Travel in France and abroad
LOCATION

Location
Europe, France, Ile-de-France, ESSONNE (91)
City
EVRY

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Feb 2017 06:17

This is very interesting.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Feb 2017 06:18

JayS wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Lca is an Indian design. The Ada can easily figure out how much needs to change in order to make the revised Kaveri fit the plane. If the issue is Blade diameter.

Just understand that the UK modified the Phantom with RR engine.
I don't think, Kaveri will ever fly in LCA MK1A (apart from development/expt flight). Sad but reality. Let's face it. And MK2 has 98kN requirement which Kaveri can't match without core redesign.

Is that not the expectation set by the French? That the Kaveri will be mated with the LCA ............... by 2020?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 02 Feb 2017 22:40

NRao wrote:
JayS wrote: I don't think, Kaveri will ever fly in LCA MK1A (apart from development/expt flight). Sad but reality. Let's face it. And MK2 has 98kN requirement which Kaveri can't match without core redesign.
Is that not the expectation set by the French? That the Kaveri will be mated with the LCA ............... by 2020?

IIRC they first claimed it will be done by 2018..!! Well, French can can anything. What can we do if they cannot finish it in said time line..??? A variant of matured civil engine family takes minimum 3yrs for certification even when done by GE/PW/RR (min 5-6 yrs total development time from concept to EIS). Certification for mil engine is even more rigorous. And you can add some factor for Kaveri since it will be flight tested for very first time. Do the math. I would not put my money on even 2020..!! If its done by then, I'll eat my hat.

And I am not considering additional time required for mating of M88 core with Kaveri LP modules and debugging of LP modules fully. I think Kaveri AB also was having below par performance. And to modify one LCA to mate it with Kaveri, integrate Kaveri and prepare it to fly.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Feb 2017 23:30

You know more than me on that.

However, I would think, with the number of consultants that India has talked with, that these guys have a pretty good handle on the risks by now. Especially the French.

I think it would all depend on who is running the show and the amount of leeway they have. But, at times I wonder if the next batch of Rafale would depend on the success of this project.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 02 Feb 2017 23:46

^that would be an awesome carrot to dangle.
MMRCA was 126+84 options iirc..

Rafale could be the 84 if satisfactory progress is made on the Kaveri.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2017 23:54

UlanBatori wrote:This is very interesting.

"we" are eagerly looking forward for your blessings

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Feb 2017 00:17

I know nothing about it. Overall, one can look at it many ways, as usual:
1) Cynical: phoren boondoggle to do the development for GTRE, but now at Safran
2) Rah-rah optimism: Safran is going to teach GTRE to design world-beating engines.

3) Tender for 300 single-crystal blades is suspicious: are they buying overpriced test articles to stick into one or two engines, rather then the technology to BUILD single-crystal blades? What if the tender is filled by a phoren supplier? Is there a technology learning path?
4) So OFFSET money is going to remain in Phrance. Can be criticized as a baksheesh trick, if any smell of payments to desi entities surfaces. If the SAFRAN development team is to come to India and teach GTRE to develop the WorkingKaveri, that would be a different thing. Reminds me of a Lockheed C-130 "offset" which resulted in a bunch of Saudis running around in Lockheedstan trying to get the local girls to join their harems.

Put the project PI in a very tough position, between the

houris and the likely-2-get-head-chopped Air Fauj Captain.
5) Will the SAFRAN-developed Kaveri be license-produced like the old British centrifugal-compressor monstrosity at HAL injin phactory? "Why can't you reverse engineer/change the blades, hain?" "Because v r only allowed to build from these blueprints not anything else". If so why is it any better than buying the injins from Massastan? Now the great India-genius Kaveri name, hallowed for 40 years, is also given to the feringhis, hain?

But I don't see what option GOI had, to ramp up Ellseeyay production. What I want to see is clear intent to build 1000 engines and use them till them are worn out.
I would have voted to get the Su-24's engines, if they won't sell us the Su-35's engines, and learn to build them from scratch. By the thousands. At Palaniappan's OMRON Calculators, Bus Repair and Aircraft Engines, Pottanur. Look at Syria performance of the old crates of the RuAF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Feb 2017 01:32

also they promised to complete this in 18 months flat! and putting one thruster (not sure, if it is 82kN or 90kN waali[perhaps phase 2]) into LCA by 2020 - perfect vision there. as usual, I am skeptical, but GTRE is all about missing something so important, and then realizing a firang expert saying you did.. but you didn't realize it that it required blade design is not perfect enough [too much bypass] or some water jet holes are missing or some coating is all that matters for it not melt away at TET.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Feb 2017 05:01

On the Damocles thread (go there and get sword falling on head) there is mention of DRDO Centers for aero propulsion set up at Eye Eye Tees. My evil 6th coujin happens to know one of the Principal Investigators/Center Directors - Pharmer Yak etc. I must say they have found person of the right mind set and work ethic and brilliance. What he can do remains to be seen, but they are building buildings if nothing else. If they focus to the Nth degree like NASA on The Most Important Scientific Praablem, and go present a paper at Combustion Symposium, that at the end of the day doesn't get EllSeeYay any closer to having a good engine. I think what India needs is massive, well-monitored experience, a 1000 engines blazing away to destruction, with performance measured every second and analyzed.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Feb 2017 23:11

Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 14 Feb 2017 11:20

Wasn't there a 1450 as well?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Feb 2017 12:59

KW or HP?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 15 Feb 2017 11:44

‏@livefist

Very interesting. Indian private firm Poeir Jets at #AeroIndia2017, says its the first Indian company to design & build small jet engines.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Feb 2017 12:43

Neela wrote:
‏@livefist

Very interesting. Indian private firm Poeir Jets at #AeroIndia2017, says its the first Indian company to design & build small jet engines.

There was a news article about them in some paper last week. Right now they are working on 20kgf thrust engine, which is tiny one. But they are planning to go up to 350kgf, which could be used for UAVs. Looks like a rich guy (owner of some company can't remember which one) is bootstrapping the team with 20Cr fund.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 15 Feb 2017 13:06

Neela wrote:
‏@livefist

Very interesting. Indian private firm Poeir Jets at #AeroIndia2017, says its the first Indian company to design & build small jet engines.

One of these mated with Garuthma kit with added section for fuel should give us nice cheap miniature cruise missiles.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 15 Feb 2017 17:46

Manohar Parrikar confirms French help for revival of Indian Kaveri engine

As reported by ET, leading manufacturer Safran has finalised a $2 million consultancy agreement to revive the project for combat planes and unmanned aircraft. French experts have studied Kaveri gas turbine project -- which was stalled in 2014 -- and have draw a joint development plan

The Kaveri engine project was more of less abandoned for aviation use in 2014 due to power shortcomings. While the consultancy agreement will lead to a detailed plan, initial assessments by French experts has brought out that 25-30 per cent more work is needed for it to get combat worthy.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 15 Feb 2017 17:52

Livefist ‏@livefist 6h6 hours ago
Model of the DRDO/GTRE mini jet engine for UAV applications. Being developed for next gen in-development UAS.