Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Oct 2019 10:25

70 years of ToT did not teach us how to design. Our own aircraft. I thought that was a great and expensive learning. Today, nobody is offering us ToT on fighter aircraft. We simply saw through FGFA fake ToT.

Will we do the same mistake with engines. Time will prove.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4370
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 10 Oct 2019 10:43

chola wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:
It was during that period when first heard about incorporating the French M88 core

Not the first time. Has happened before for example look for news from 2008 on this. Supposedly IAF shot down proposal to make M88 core based proposal that time.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20555
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Oct 2019 13:45

Indranil wrote:And this is what Adm. Arun Prakash has to say about it

Slide says, "propose complete txfr of 'know-how' & 'know-why' allowing India to dev & produce engines... customized for its aircraft needs." Bound to be lucrative for the French but MoD must weigh huge "Opportunity Cost" of India NEVER making jet engine.
@ShivAroor @ReviewVayu


I couldn't agree more. They have slithered out of every technology transfer possible.


they may be "TOT"ing a core with almost no growth potential and we have no way to tell because in this domain, we have, so far, only developed the technology to sharpen pencils.

Looking carefully at a gift horse in the mouth calls for multi domain expertise, especially one as expensive as this horse.

so, in reality we may get stuck with a lemon that is going nowhere fast

why would the wily frenchies be so willing to undercut their assured market in India

grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.

could we play off one against the other.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2490
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 10 Oct 2019 23:19

chetak wrote:grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.


I don't think they have any more ability to tinker with an engine than we do. Letting Gripey even setting a good foot would be stupid.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 10 Oct 2019 23:37

I asked this question earlier, how will M88 core with 75KN thrust will help Kaveri, which is already giving out 79KN?

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3459
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 10 Oct 2019 23:41

chetak wrote:
Indranil wrote:And this is what Adm. Arun Prakash has to say about it

grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.

could we play off one against the other.


I think the only way this "playing off" thing will work is getting the Kaveri engine to actually do a powered test flight in an aircraft, the moment India nears the goal of self-reliance in engine tech every one and his uncle will make a beeline to India offering their greatest and best engines !!

I don't think the Swedes have anything by way of engine tech to offer India.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20555
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Oct 2019 00:22

Cybaru wrote:
chetak wrote:grippen is also willing for "complete" TOT on their aircraft (minus engine) and they have the capability to tinker with the engine.


I don't think they have any more ability to tinker with an engine than we do. Letting Gripey even setting a good foot would be stupid.


quite some time ago, they converted a civil commercial engine to an afterburning variant that powered one of their early fighters

per wiki

The Volvo RM8 is a low-bypass afterburning turbofan jet engine developed for the Saab 37 Viggen fighter. In 1962, the Pratt & Whitney JT8D-1 engine was chosen to power the Viggen in absence of a suitable and available engine designed for military use. Basically a licensed-built version of the JT8D, heavily modified for supersonic speeds, with a Swedish-designed afterburner, the RM8 was produced by Svenska Flygmotor (later known as Volvo Aero).

RM8A - AJ 37 Viggen
Since the original engine was constructed for subsonic speeds, most part of the engine had to be redimensioned for the higher Mach-speeds in a military aircraft. Fans and turbine were altered, a new burn-chamber designed and a totally new fuel-control system for both engine and afterburner.[2]

RM8B - JA 37 Viggen
The flight envelope for the fighter-version demanded both more power and better compressor stall margins. This led to a new fan-stage (the so-called "0-stage") was introduced, making the engine longer. This led to a total redesign of the fans, the low-pressure compressor and the burn-chambers

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 11 Oct 2019 00:24

Volvo overplays its modifications to the 404. If they had the ability to design and build its own engines, it would have.

The French are not going to give us any ToT on the core. They are going to give us a working Kaveri derivative with their core replacing the Kabini core. We will be extremely foolish to accept this, because it will not give us any capability to design our own engines in the future. The French put 50 billion in the development of Rafale. They are going to have close to 200 Rafales in French Air force and Navy eventually. May be another 150 in export orders. That's a huge development that they willingly took to retain design capabilities within France. Now, is the time for them to recuperate as much as the cost as they possibly can.

We should be able to see through this simple equations and understand that we need to bite the bullet on engine design. It will take us 10 billion to get there at least. But airplanes worth 100s of billions are resting on this development. Thankfully, many stalwarts understand this and are talking for it.

One must also be wary of reporters who are flown to facilities to give them dekho. It's indirect lifafa (if direct lifafas are not involved). These reporters have enormous reach and can shape public opinion.

What we need with our engine program is not a band aid to get Kaveri working. IMHO, we need:
1. A true national priority program, not like Kaveri, not like NCAD.
2. Let ADA define the engine specs that are required for MWF/AMCA. Hopefully, they are the same engines
3. Make it a competition, GTRE, HAL, any private company(like Bharat Forge) can participate
4. Funding will be provided by GoI in a stepwise fashion with well defined deliverables
5. Players will be downselected to two competitors for the final engine deliverable.

I can't believe that we can design HTT-40, IJT, SPORT, LCA, MWF, AMCA and we can't design a twin engined transporter. Can a 80 kN engine be designed around the same core as designed above? If so, we have a base for a 100 passenger RTA, 15-20 ton transport aircraft, AeWAC.

Just how big is the carrot? Why are we missing the obvious?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20555
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Oct 2019 00:25

kit wrote:
chetak wrote:


I think the only way this "playing off" thing will work is getting the Kaveri engine to actually do a powered test flight in an aircraft, the moment India nears the goal of self-reliance in engine tech every one and his uncle will make a beeline to India offering their greatest and best engines !!

I don't think the Swedes have anything by way of engine tech to offer India.


One was thinking more in terms of getting consultancy from the swedes to technically evaluate the M88 core offer wrt its growth potential.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2490
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 11 Oct 2019 00:36

Get the french to commit to the following.

1. Make the M88 in India for any follow on raffy orders.
2. Work on indigenizing the cold section (85%) if we need to (Find local Indian MIC to provide all parts)
3. Work on a follow on 75 KN / 115 KN indo-french engine for AMCA
4. Develop ecosystem for testing new engines (probably just the flying testbed)
5. GTRE works on making sure we own the cold section for this new joint engine (Take Kaveri engine and scale-up or adapt the M88 engine to higher thrust - where ever we are in the tech cycle)
6. GTRE continues working on our own hot section independently - (swap hot section with ours and test, till we get what we want)

85% flying engine that we can own is better than 0% engine we own.
Last edited by Cybaru on 11 Oct 2019 00:38, edited 1 time in total.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Oct 2019 00:37

Development of Aero turbine engine should come under PMO. Just like SSBN was. As simple as that.

Not under MoD funding paper pushing. As long as it is under MoD, there will no funds, no testing ecosystem set up nothing.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20555
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Oct 2019 01:29

nam wrote:Development of Aero turbine engine should come under PMO. Just like SSBN was. As simple as that.

Not under MoD funding paper pushing. As long as it is under MoD, there will no funds, no testing ecosystem set up nothing.


saar, the problem starts and ends with human resources.

The way that the agencies in India have handled the aero engine development for decades now does not generate confidence in anyone, especially the guys controlling the purse strings.

and now the PM is looking at a possible multi billion dollar payout to the frenchies without any guarantee of the all important RoI.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 11 Oct 2019 01:43

Chetak ji,

I agree with you. But you will also agree that we can't afford to start from scratch. There are a lot of good apples in the basket. The problem is to identify these good apples and empower them.

Or as I said earlier empower a competition with a HUGE carrot at the end. The wheat will separate from the chaff automagically. Let IAF run the competition! The American way could be a good model to emulate.

Shankk
BRFite
Posts: 242
Joined: 30 Jan 2006 14:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Shankk » 11 Oct 2019 01:51

Indranil wrote:And this is what Adm. Arun Prakash has to say about it

Slide says, "propose complete txfr of 'know-how' & 'know-why' allowing India to dev & produce engines... customized for its aircraft needs." Bound to be lucrative for the French but MoD must weigh huge "Opportunity Cost" of India NEVER making jet engine.
@ShivAroor @ReviewVayu


I couldn't agree more. They have slithered out of every technology transfer possible.


I tend to agree with this. There is not going to be any significant tech transfer for something like a fighter engine. Doing that kills a golden goose for no good returns and more importantly makes India independent which is the worst case scenario. At best they will provide help in some areas for arms and legs in the form of Rafael or submarine or some other deal.

If there is anything more to it, it could possibly mean India is closer to a breakthrough in engine development. There are two leading indicators of India achieving something indigenously and they are

    1) Pakistan gets to say they have developed capability to do the same thing (usually only superficially)
    2) India is offered a product that was denied earlier (like in the case of AESA radar)

In this case, #1 is out of question and #2 is available for money but technology transfer is most likely a bait.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Oct 2019 01:52

Chetak and Indranil All concerns are noted and being addressed. Give a little time.
No IAF is not the agency to run any competition.

Also there are many who were or are part of the problem sniping from peanut gallery.
a whole ecosystem has been built up.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20555
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Oct 2019 02:03

Indranil wrote:Chetak ji,

I agree with you. But you will also agree that we can't afford to start from scratch. There are a lot of good apples in the basket. The problem is to identify these good apples and empower them.

Or as I said earlier empower a competition with a HUGE carrot at the end. The wheat will separate from the chaff automagically. Let IAF run the competition! The American way could be a good model to emulate.


sirji,

we need to keep egos firmly in check and pool all available resources in various agencies/institutions from the whole country and then setup the new organisation.

take the project control out of the hands of the usual suspects and empower smaller teams with ruthless administration and timeline oriented technical milestones and finally bring in a 3-5 strong management board at the top.

need to tap organizations like DAE and ISRO too as both have a fine understanding of metallurgy.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Oct 2019 02:20

chetak wrote:
nam wrote:Development of Aero turbine engine should come under PMO. Just like SSBN was. As simple as that.

Not under MoD funding paper pushing. As long as it is under MoD, there will no funds, no testing ecosystem set up nothing.


saar, the problem starts and ends with human resources.

The way that the agencies in India have handled the aero engine development for decades now does not generate confidence in anyone, especially the guys controlling the purse strings.

and now the PM is looking at a possible multi billion dollar payout to the frenchies without any guarantee of the all important RoI.


I think we need to step back and define why are we calling Kaveri a failure. Why is Kaveri a failure when it produces 79KN-81KN compare to 75KN M88, which is used on IAF's dream, the Rafale? Kaveri is in F404 form factor, which is a showcase of years of American engineering!

Even the RD33/93 is bigger than Kaveri

We have achieved a 79KN engine, spending only 600M dollars! Peanuts considering what Chinese are spending.

Kaveri is under-powered for single engine LCA. Would it be considered under-powered, if LCA was a twin engine?

No one calls M88 under powered.
Last edited by nam on 11 Oct 2019 02:32, edited 2 times in total.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Oct 2019 02:28

We can blame project management, as much we want. But the fact is at 600M dollar spend, you cannot get a 89KN in F404 form factor.

If we achieve this, we should put a huge board on Mount Everest "Only idiots spend billions on jet engines". for every one to see.

I am always amazed, that at that kind of peanuts money, Kaveri is even working at 79KN!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2019 05:08

Here we go around the merry-go-round again :lol:

The French, just like the Americans, will never give out the tech of the hot section of the engine. Why should they?

France makes fresh efforts to revive indigenous Kaveri jet engine project
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 532719.cms
11 Oct 2019

According to sources, the French side emphasised that India was the only country to which such advanced technology transfer was being offered and that the country would achieve ‘sovereignty’ on aero engine tech.

The French side pledged to transfer more work for the production of the M-88 engine that powers its fighter jets to India if orders for more of the combat aircraft are received. “If India orders 36 more Rafale jets, more engine parts would be made in India (basically the cold section of the M88) to meet offset conditions,” sources aware of the briefing said.

As reported by ET, plans to revive the indigenous Kaveri project with the help of French technology fell through after the Indian side found the pricing prohibitive. Talks hit a roadblock after it emerged that only a part of the offsets — just over Euro 250 million — could be utilised for the projects and that Defence Research and Development Organisation would have had to provide the remaining Euro 500 million.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Oct 2019 08:03

The audacity, stupidity and irony of the headline:

France makes fresh efforts to revive indigenous Kaveri jet engine project.

To what end?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2019 09:57

From Manu Pubby. The same reporter who mentioned that the GTRE-Safran JV failed. What is surprising about that report and this new one, is that only he has reported this. No other Indian or foreign journalist has reported this. Failure of such an important JV would have been all over the news.

But to be fair...Safran - like any other engine company - would never sell the hot section (i.e. the core) to any nation. Why kill the goose that lays the golden egg?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Oct 2019 10:57

Manu is a good reporter. But, that headline is garbage.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Oct 2019 11:06

I wish people like Maitya ji, JayS, Agupta ji wrote an article about the development of aero engines in India. Compared the same with successful projects abroad and bring out how a ToT is can at best be termed as a penny wise, pound foolish idea.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2314
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Oct 2019 11:58

Kaveri is the kind of project that needs to be monitored at the PMO level. Bring the best brains in the country: IITs, ISRO, DRDO, Industry etc. Treat it like the Manhattan project (or our very own Cryogenic engine).

The people involved must be given liberal funding & zero red tape. Completely new organization with new people and 1 mission

This must receive Modi's personal commitment like Gaganyaan. Who knows - we might even do it within his 2nd term. We are not starting from scratch.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3878
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 12 Oct 2019 12:37

JayS wrote:
chola wrote:

Not the first time. Has happened before for example look for news from 2008 on this. Supposedly IAF shot down proposal to make M88 core based proposal that time.


Thanks, Saar. I had no idea it was a recurring theme. I always thought it was an offset to the Rafale deal.

Raghunathgb
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 23 Apr 2019 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 12 Oct 2019 12:53

Safran is now struggling to fulfill offset obligations of nearly 580 million euros. What options do they have?

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2019 13:16

So we don't want to give 500M to Safran for the deal, that is fine.

We also don't want to spend 500M to refine Kaveri.

Fundamentally we don't want to spend money, but want a tech, which is national treasure in the countries who have them.

We are delusional.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3878
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 12 Oct 2019 13:18

Indranil wrote:I wish people like Maitya ji, JayS, Agupta ji wrote an article about the development of aero engines in India. Compared the same with successful projects abroad and bring out how a ToT is can at best be termed as a penny wise, pound foolish idea.


Is there any successful project abroad out there? I guess you have to go back to the Russians being offered the RR Nene. All western jet engines have roughly the same origin in RR enhanced with German tech spoils after WWII.

Outside the goras, there are only the chini WP series of turbojets in the J-6/J-7 (copies of the Russian Tumansky's) and WS-series turbofans (all complete failures until the WS-10), the Iranian RE of the J-85 turbojet called the Owj and the Japanese turbofans for their F-1 and T-4 fighter/trainers and their P1 and transports.

Japan is a close partner of the Western alliance and have access to Amreeki tech like the Swedes. It is a double-edge sword though. The Japanese engines are never anything other than niche products since their core aircraft F-15, F-35, etc. are always Amreeki planes with Amreeki engines.

This stuff is literally controlled by less than a handful of nations. There will be no real TOT. If you want this magic, you need to do it by hook or crook (like the chinis or Iranians with RE) or pour in far more than $600M and carry the Kaveri over the finishing line.

The truth is we've done something very few nations are able to do in the Kaveri. We should pour in billions to finish it.

agupta
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 13 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby agupta » 12 Oct 2019 17:15

Nam-ji: I think you guys believe that there is a curve that goes like "$$ invested vs. Thrust". It's not so simple, will be my humble submission. If we extrapolate from that 1 SAFRAN slide (a very dangerous exercise in guesswork), then one would say the Kaveri's real problem is aerothermal durability i.e., shit in the hot section is burning up and GTRE cannot figure out why and/or fix it. EVERY aircraft engine manufacturer has run into multiple such traps in the past... and that ToT aint gonna be cheap (if it happens at all). Its cost them multiple millions in damages over decades so to expect them to just give it to you for less than that is laughable. In many instances its also ITAR constrained. And in that sense, SAFRAN's statement IS true that this is a unique offer.

Yes, if we want to develop our own engines, more funding and sustained effort will be needed. A smarter but similar track like the Chinese to create the technology base. But it has to start with a cleanse and mea culpa exercise and not hold current plans hostage. Look at what HAL Helicopters did over the last 2 decades - they did not hold their weapon system hostage to a clean-sheet power plant effort and now we have a mature baseline (ALH), and multiple offshoots of the created core competence (LCH, LUH) fructifying....

Old timers might recall, if my memory serves well, that one of the flash points between DRDO and IAF was the former's insistence on making Kaveri the primary option for the LCA- and it was the IAF that, having learnt from the Marut experience, that was insisting that the focus be "solely/mostly" on developing the aircraft system.

agupta
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 13 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby agupta » 12 Oct 2019 17:53

Indranil wrote:I wish people like Maitya ji, JayS, Agupta ji wrote an article about the development of aero engines in India. Compared the same with successful projects abroad and bring out how a ToT is can at best be termed as a penny wise, pound foolish idea.



I think Maitya has done a good job so far in corralling and summarizing where Kaveri seems to be. From what he reposted recently, so far we believed that the issues were outside the core (LPC, A/B) Occam's razor - augmented by that 1 slide from SAFRAN - says the M88 core Technology (not the reuse of the exact same physical design) is what SAFRAN is offering. And this lines up with the big silence on the marinization plans as well unfortunately - if it was just the A/B no reason that should slow it down.

The lack of transparency from GTRE is both galling and self-destructive..and it makes any documentation effort challenging.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3459
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 12 Oct 2019 18:44

I am certain there is going to be NO more Raffy orders unless Snecma et all plays ball on engine tech and France sticks to its end of the bargain regarding offsets. How they are going to do it will be keenly watched.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2240
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 12 Oct 2019 21:28

Snecma will wiggle out of this one by proposing investment in a engine overhaul facility in India and the babudom will claim India will earn foreign exchange by servicing all the M series engines with other air forces too.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2019 21:48

Do we have any article or reports on what exactly is the issue with Kaveri? I understand it is heavier by 100kg than required.

Are we having issues increasing thrust because it has DS blades? or the there are stability concerns with the engine? Are we not able to create the required pressure with the hot section of the engine?

DMRL seems to have the tech to create single crystal blades. So this is not something we want from France.

There are some reports, that the current version is flight worthy, although it has lower thrust.

habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6704
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby habal » 14 Oct 2019 07:59

agupta wrote:
Indranil wrote:I wish people like Maitya ji, JayS, Agupta ji wrote an article about the development of aero engines in India. Compared the same with successful projects abroad and bring out how a ToT is can at best be termed as a penny wise, pound foolish idea.



I think Maitya has done a good job so far in corralling and summarizing where Kaveri seems to be. From what he reposted recently, so far we believed that the issues were outside the core (LPC, A/B) Occam's razor - augmented by that 1 slide from SAFRAN - says the M88 core Technology (not the reuse of the exact same physical design) is what SAFRAN is offering. And this lines up with the big silence on the marinization plans as well unfortunately - if it was just the A/B no reason that should slow it down.

The lack of transparency from GTRE is both galling and self-destructive..and it makes any documentation effort challenging.


Typical Indian govt organisation, entire world by now knows what the problem with kaveri is except for Indians themselves. GoI is most successful in keeping secrets from Indians, with the rest of the world they are not so successful.

I have for years had these questions about kaveri:

1. Is the basic issue in productionizing turbines.
2. Is the issue in sustaining 79 kn thrust above a few seconds. Screech ?
3. What is state of the HPC and LPC ? Are they performing upto expectations.
4. How is the hot section of the core performing ?
5. Why no flying test bed yet ?
6. Why no high altitude simulator wind tunnel yet ?

All these may have compelling reasons for being kept secret but I am yet to be convinced those reasons are anything above or greater than internal politics at gtre where people are trying to shift blame for failures and appropriate for themselves any credit for succeses thus far.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 14 Oct 2019 09:40

Just saying a very capable private company has been trying to make 1 kN engine for the last 4 years without success.

Nobody has stopped the private sector from developing a world class engine of any power. There is simply no initiative for it from any side.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3850
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Oct 2019 22:37

Frankly my biggest concern is getting an engine that India has some control over or at least an engine which others have no control over. How that is achieved is secondary.

Ideally I would think a two track approach would be useful. Get on with the French for short term results AND invest in local R&D for long term results.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3878
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 19 Oct 2019 16:35

As I was researching on twitter archives, I came these tweets from Saurav Jha who as many of you may know I consider one of the better if not most insightful Indian defense reporters around:

Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
The Kaveri engine performed for 57 hours continuously during tests in Russia, whereas the Chinese WS-10 could not.
9:58 PM · Jan 25, 2015·Twitter Web Client

Saurav Jha
@SJha1618

The Chinese are making progress with the WS-10 turbofan family. You would note, they produced 300 units of this engine even before it
...
was really ready. They pushed pirate flankers into production, with their own sub-systems despite issues bcoz they know mass manufacturing
...
is more important than endless refinement at the prototype stage. Many things ultimately get fixed through production improvements.



The Kaveri was in extensive tests at the Russian Gromov complex between 2004 and 2007. It was at this time, the chinis were there too, testing their WS-10.

We were actually ahead of them at that time.

But today there are hundreds of WS-10 powered frontline PLAAF/PLAN aircraft but the Kaveri remains in testing.

As Saurav said, the chinis built 300 WS-10 even before it was ready, working out the kinks through mass production. This is the rapid iteration strategy we see everywhere in chini production. Building lots of examples each incorporating changes from the previous until they have something usable. The pirate flanker that Jha sir talks about is the J-11B which was inducted in 2009, a few years after their Russian tests.

If we had deployed the same strategy I have little doubt that the Kaveri would be flying today. The chinis did have the advantage of a twin-engine aircraft that can take a new engine more safely. But we could have converted a series of Fulcrums. The Kaveri is the same class and roughly the same size as the RD-33.

Maybe it is never too late. We might just need to bite the bullet and spend the billions needed to finish the project. This thing is already close to the finish line. Spend money to convert some MiG-29s and then prepare for in the AMCA. We can have a dual track AMCA project with one Kaveri variant and another with a phoren engine.

There only a handful of nations who can even get an engine into a flight test like the Kaveri. It would be a travesty to give up on it because we are only willing to spend $600M. We are spending $2.6 BILLION for just 24 helicopters in the MH60R (great aircraft, just making a point.)

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20555
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 17:14

chola wrote:As I was researching on twitter archives, I came these tweets from Saurav Jha who as many of you may know I consider one of the better if not most insightful Indian defense reporters around:

Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
The Kaveri engine performed for 57 hours continuously during tests in Russia, whereas the Chinese WS-10 could not.
9:58 PM · Jan 25, 2015·Twitter Web Client

Saurav Jha
@SJha1618

The Chinese are making progress with the WS-10 turbofan family. You would note, they produced 300 units of this engine even before it
...
was really ready. They pushed pirate flankers into production, with their own sub-systems despite issues bcoz they know mass manufacturing
...
is more important than endless refinement at the prototype stage. Many things ultimately get fixed through production improvements.



The Kaveri was in extensive tests at the Russian Gromov complex between 2004 and 2007. It was at this time, the chinis were there too, testing their WS-10.

We were actually ahead of them at that time.

But today there are hundreds of WS-10 powered frontline PLAAF/PLAN aircraft but the Kaveri remains in testing.

As Saurav said, the chinis built 300 WS-10 even before it was ready, working out the kinks through mass production. This is the rapid iteration strategy we see everywhere in chini production. Building lots of examples each incorporating changes from the previous until they have something usable. The pirate flanker that Jha sir talks about is the J-11B which was inducted in 2009, a few years after their Russian tests.

If we had deployed the same strategy I have little doubt that the Kaveri would be flying today. The chinis did have the advantage of a twin-engine aircraft that can take a new engine more safely. But we could have converted a series of Fulcrums. The Kaveri is the same class and roughly the same size as the RD-33.

Maybe it is never too late. We might just need to bite the bullet and spend the billions needed to finish the project. This thing is already close to the finish line. Spend money to convert some MiG-29s and then prepare for in the AMCA. We can have a dual track AMCA project with one Kaveri variant and another with a phoren engine.

There only a handful of nations who can even get an engine into a flight test like the Kaveri. It would be a travesty to give up on it because we are only willing to spend $600M. We are spending $2.6 BILLION for just 24 helicopters in the MH60R (great aircraft, just making a point.)


something doesn't sit quite right with that quoted $600M figure.

it is a fallacy to assume that the reason for the slow progress of the kaveri was the funding. That would be like missing the woods for the trees.

at some time one should appreciate the glaring fact that the guys involved just couldn't cut the mustard. It would have been much much cheaper to have sought a consultancy at that time rather than let fragile egos dominate.

flying test beds and other very expensive facilities would not help in such a situation.

BTW, consider this fact without bias. A lot of the guys posting on this thread, being otherwise qualified, had they decided to take the DRDO entrance exam in their time, could very easily have wound up as "scientists", no :)

Also, haven't the pakis insisted on having only russki engines for some of their cheeni planes because the cheeni engines couldn't hack it.

aren't these the very same pakis who are into humping poor river dolphins who have refused to accept some cheeni engine.

and so, engine wise, even with the almost unlimited funding, the cheenis aren't really doing all that great either. :mrgreen:

chola garu,

Some time, when you can, take a look at how the cheenis initially started out with the sheynang MiGs and how their perseverance has gotten them from there to here.

this is one lesson that we never bothered to learn from them and had we had done so, we could have done something productive, if only we had followed a similar path.

que sera sera.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Oct 2019 18:15

If the issue was ego of some of the team members, how did Kaveri achieve 79KN thrust? which is greater than M88!

And it does not even use SC blades! If we were not close to achieve M88 level thrust, the French would not never agreed to collaborate.

The sad part of the Kaveri saga, is there is no clarity on what is the actual issue with kaveri. I am not sure if the political leaders, who will ultimately make the decision on money, know the story either.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20555
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 18:41

nam wrote:If the issue was ego of some of the team members, how did Kaveri achieve 79KN thrust? which is greater than M88!

And it does not even use SC blades! If we were not close to achieve M88 level thrust, the French would not never agreed to collaborate.

The sad part of the Kaveri saga, is there is no clarity on what is the actual issue with kaveri. I am not sure if the political leaders, who will ultimately make the decision on money, know the story either.


the french would help you to design a orange juice powered jet engine just as long as you paid their outrageous prices.

they sold the exocet to the britshits and to the argentineans at the same time during the falkland war. They had a clear conscience then because they have no conscience at all, just like all good businessmen.

were you perhaps expecting that they would have changed their spots in the meantime.

The politicos react only to confidence and they all like tech leaders who will deliver successfully as advertised and also take full responsibility for the occasional failure.

how do you think that APJ Abdul Kalam was so successful in tackling politicos and getting them to unbelt the funds he needed. He was undoubtedly an exemplary technocrat, but at the same time, he was a better politician than many professional politicos in his time.

Is there anyone like APJ Abdul Kalam visible anywhere on the scientific horizon today.

BTW, the kaveri is still test bench bound after decades while the M88 has been airborne for many years now and quite reliably at that.

Also, rest assured that the french, as well as the russkis, know what is exactly wrong with the kaveri but neither one is going to tell you because they both want to sell aero engines to India.

the market is too big for them to pass up.

the example of the cryogenic engine as well as the vikas engine is still very fresh in everyone's memory and that scares both the frenchies as well as the russkies no end.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ranjbe and 61 guests