Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2581
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Oct 2019 18:59

M88 is flying is because the French wanted a 75KN engine, as Rafale is twin engine. There is no lack of thrust issue, nor they have issue of SC tech.

Kaveri is in test bed, because our target is 89KN for a Single Engine LCA. If LCA was twin engine, Kaveri would probably be flying as well.

The french are selling us the hot section with SC blade, off the shelf in "TOT", which they probably believe we haven't achieved yet.

They are hardly doing a favor, in fact being very guarded.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2977
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Kanson » 19 Oct 2019 19:11

First, We are not buying literally & figuratively whatever france wants to sell us.

2. We have taken help from france so far in assessment or aduit of the work/progress so far we achieved in Kaveri.

3. In reporting, there are many gaps. Everyone want to break the news or fill the newspaper columns. Nothing more than that

Finally, if we want more clarification or know to our exact progress, we have to wait to hear from official channel. So patience is need of the hour.
Last edited by Kanson on 19 Oct 2019 19:12, edited 1 time in total.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 19:12

nam wrote:M88 is flying is because the French wanted a 75KN engine, as Rafale is twin engine. There is no lack of thrust issue, nor they have issue of SC tech.

Kaveri is in test bed, because our target is 89KN for a Single Engine LCA. If LCA was twin engine, Kaveri would probably be flying as well.

The french are selling us the hot section with SC blade, off the shelf in "TOT", which they probably believe we haven't achieved yet.


why couldn't a lighter LCA have been developed to incorporate the kaveri, if thrust was the only issue.

The reliability of the single engine powering a fighter needs to be a lot higher than what has been demoed by the kaveri so far.

what the french are selling us has not been decided at all at this time. core is just one of the options that some people of one lobby are looking at.

What would we do with a dead end, no growth potential, hot section, if it turns out to be one.

do we go back to someone again for the next engine/core/hot section to power a larger aircraft already in the design pipeline.

egos and people who can cut the mustard are both in the toxic mix.
Last edited by chetak on 19 Oct 2019 19:15, edited 1 time in total.

Raghunathgb
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 23 Apr 2019 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 19 Oct 2019 19:14

Let French declare that they are ready to give TOT for hot section. Till then I request members to stop assuming that there is a TOT offered for the same.

French are not going to give us TOT for SCB.period.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 19:20

Raghunathgb wrote:Let French declare that they are ready to give TOT for hot section. Till then I request members to stop assuming that there is a TOT offered for the same.

French are not going to give us TOT for SCB.period.


the french are not going to give you any TOT to kill their own market.

we already have the SCB tech in India.

Multiple agencies are working on the SCBs at this time

the hot section is much more than mere SCBs alone.

also, the million dollar question is who is going to actually design the Kaveri SCB and the blisk to which it is going to be mated.

WHO

or is all the hot section / core talk just to cover up this very crucial deficiency.
Last edited by chetak on 19 Oct 2019 19:31, edited 1 time in total.

Raghunathgb
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 23 Apr 2019 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 19 Oct 2019 19:30

I will wait for sourav jha article on Kaveri engine. That will give the exact picture where we are. We have advanced in scb by cracking some of the technologies used in it.

I still think this offer has only come because we are probably nearing completion.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 19:36

Raghunathgb wrote:I will wait for sourav jha article on Kaveri engine. That will give the exact picture where we are. We have advanced in scb by cracking some of the technologies used in it.

I still think this offer has only come because we are probably nearing completion.


sourav jha does not have access to high level sources.

With MAD around no one in the know is going to talk to anyone like jha who will then promptly tweet or write about it. Hara kiri.

with all the rafale nonsense peddled by pappu, all sources have completely dried up.

the provisions of the official secrets act can get one many years in prison.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 19:47

Raghunathgb wrote:I will wait for sourav jha article on Kaveri engine. That will give the exact picture where we are. We have advanced in scb by cracking some of the technologies used in it.

I still think this offer has only come because we are probably nearing completion.


Raghunathgb ji

your own office will be able to give you a better update than sourav jha ever could. :)

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7364
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 19 Oct 2019 21:31

chetak wrote:
Multiple agencies are working on the SCBs at this time

Who all?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 21:58

Prasad wrote:
chetak wrote:
Multiple agencies are working on the SCBs at this time

Who all?


some names are in the public domain and some are not.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2581
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Oct 2019 22:15

chetak wrote:why couldn't a lighter LCA have been developed to incorporate the kaveri, if thrust was the only issue.

The reliability of the single engine powering a fighter needs to be a lot higher than what has been demoed by the kaveri so far.


I think we are, in form of UCAV Ghatak.

No arguments about the need for a reliable engine. Building one requires thousands of hours of testing .. means investing money. Even if there is thrust deficiency, we should be flight testing Kaveri in a double engine test bed.

If our SCB tech cannot handle higher temp, than currently in Kaveri, then fundamentally it is a dead end tech.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2019 23:03

nam wrote:
chetak wrote:why couldn't a lighter LCA have been developed to incorporate the kaveri, if thrust was the only issue.

The reliability of the single engine powering a fighter needs to be a lot higher than what has been demoed by the kaveri so far.


I think we are, in form of UCAV Ghatak.

No arguments about the need for a reliable engine. Building one requires thousands of hours of testing .. means investing money. Even if there is thrust deficiency, we should be flight testing Kaveri in a double engine test bed.

If our SCB tech cannot handle higher temp, than currently in Kaveri, then fundamentally it is a dead end tech.


SCBs can handle higher temps provided that the cooling channels are designed properly and manufacturing is done accurately with extremely close tolerances.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3828
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 20 Oct 2019 16:46

chetak wrote:
something doesn't sit quite right with that quoted $600M figure.

it is a fallacy to assume that the reason for the slow progress of the kaveri was the funding. That would be like missing the woods for the trees.

at some time one should appreciate the glaring fact that the guys involved just couldn't cut the mustard. It would have been much much cheaper to have sought a consultancy at that time rather than let fragile egos dominate.

flying test beds and other very expensive facilities would not help in such a situation.

BTW, consider this fact without bias. A lot of the guys posting on this thread, being otherwise qualified, had they decided to take the DRDO entrance exam in their time, could very easily have wound up as "scientists", no :)

Also, haven't the pakis insisted on having only russki engines for some of their cheeni planes because the cheeni engines couldn't hack it.

aren't these the very same pakis who are into humping poor river dolphins who have refused to accept some cheeni engine.

and so, engine wise, even with the almost unlimited funding, the cheenis aren't really doing all that great either. :mrgreen:

chola garu,

Some time, when you can, take a look at how the cheenis initially started out with the sheynang MiGs and how their perseverance has gotten them from there to here.

this is one lesson that we never bothered to learn from them and had we had done so, we could have done something productive, if only we had followed a similar path.

que sera sera.


Chetak ji, I always appreciate your hard-edge answers!

But don't you think in this case GTRE personnel had done enough according to the circumstances?

Jet engine technology are state secrets in the few nations that have it. The fact that it ran for 57 hours continuously is an achievement that can built upon don't you think? If the WS-10 which couldn't run for 57 hours was put into production then the Kaveri should have been as well.

I believe money was and is an issue even if, as you suggested, it was more than 600M. We have seen nothing in way of pre-production models and testbeds that shows us much money was spent. With the WS-10 we saw their Russian tests, then a chini Il-76 testbed and finally a J-11 testbed with an AL-31 in one nacelle and a WS-10 in the other. From what I read, there were many pre-production models and variants to get the WS-10 to where it is today.

On the Paki rejection, there is one big caveat: Cheen's air forces do not fly a medium-size engine that the JF-17 uses. They are all heavies in the J-10, J-11/15/16 and J-20. The WS-13 offered to the PAF is an first iteration one-off with no support from the PLAAF or PLAN so it is not surprising they stuck with the RD-93 which is a late variant of the long established RD-33. The Pakis are talking about the WS-19 (being developed for the FC-31) for their latter JF-17 blocks and their "5th Gen."

That said, it is obvious chini engine tech will be behind Russian (who in turn are behind the western goras) simply because you need time and money in this industry and the Russians had put in decades more time and more money than Cheen. But in turbofans, we and the chini were peers in 2004. We with our Kaveri and they with their WS-10. We were on a similar path then.

But you are absolutely correct about the MiGs from Shenyang. I wrote about this before. The chinis built thousands of short duration throw-away turbojet engines for their J-6 and J-7 fighters. They already had an engine industry though not a turbofan one. We skipped the turbojet stage completely though we've built hundreds of MiG-21s and MiG-27s of our own.

So in the turbofan contest, we had the Kaveri which was supported by a lab, GRTE, while Cheen had an entire industry behind the WS-10.

Which brings us back to the issue of funding. I think GTRE did exemplary work considering it was basically one research institute. We should have spent the money to build an infrastructure and then an industry around them and the Kaveri.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Oct 2019 23:34

@chola ji,

the hans copied everything for their shenyang MiGs but in the end, they simply couldn't master the russki metallurgy.

consequently, the shenyang copies of the MiGs had a total life of about 120-150 hours and they actually stole the MiGs from the russkies because at the time the russkies and the hans were not even on speaking terms

over the years, we had so many aircraft and engines handed to us on a platter, so to speak, and yet we couldn't do jack with them.

HAL and DRDO situated cheek by jowl in bangalore. They barely even spoke to one another.

In fact, what is even more ironical is that the engine division and GTRE share a common wall.

venkat_r
BRFite
Posts: 329
Joined: 20 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby venkat_r » 22 Oct 2019 11:58

Do not think in India any govt or private companies are at a stage to have any competition. India has to follow what US did, create a local base first. US invested in 2to 3 companies by giving TOT to make engines.

HAL/DRDO/GTRE can give the existing simple engines to be manufactured by private companies for both civil and military engines - it takes a decade or two for these companies to absorb and mature in the technology try newer sub parts first and slowly evolve to handle more complex stuff. But the initiative has to be from the govt institutions to help incubate these companies and also make them technology rich and profitable by giving them orders for enough numbers to make them viable.

It is pity to think that we will develop the best qualified engines without going through the rigor and putting in the required resources. That is the reason why the barrier of entry is so high in this.

Not that making the Kaveri is unlikely, but the odds are not in favor, using the core and non afterburner versions for other use cases, like UCAV and using this to stand up some strong private/public firms to allow them to absorb the technology would be a good idea.

Do not know enough about the Seneca deal, but if it is any bit favorable and helps us move the needle and to get some folks get more knowledgeable and have a desi version of an engine that can be used in MWF and AMCA, then a chance has to be taken. Assuming that Seneca would guarantee that a working engine can be developed in a couple of years time to be tested with MWF, that is the best offer we can get in the circumstance. A working engine is going to help us learn a lot about the engine tech and govt steps to build an eco system would ensure that we are on our way to improve over time or at least give ourselves the best odds moving forward.

There is also another aspect of developing talent in academic institutions on aerospace tech, metallurgy and of course it is a slow process, DMRL does a decent job on alloys, SCB and recently heard of self healing alloys, but The gap could be too much and might need a wider base.

Crying over no TOT or failed engines or almost there with tech, too near but too far, etc.. is of little use if we do not grab the opportunities or take the chances when available.

sajaym
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 65
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 09:11

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby sajaym » 22 Oct 2019 19:18

Where does the HAL HTFE-25 & HTSE engines fit into the scheme of things? IMHO HAL made the right decision to develop engines for small jets/UCAVs/Helicopters -- for which there are already various promising as well as mature indigenous programs, thereby assuring a good market for such engines.

Here's one gent arguing how HAL should have developed a bigger engine for the jaguars.

https://idrw.org/how-htfe-40-could-have-saved-jaguar-strike-aircrafts/

Such an engine would've have been another long running drama with HAL having to constantly measure upto IAFs high standards. Plus expecting IAF to agree to put not one but two such engines into one of it's reliable platforms would have been a big ask.

With the HTFE-25 HAL has aimed small and should if fail, it will miss small. We should be following the HTFE-25 story and not the Kaveri story.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7848
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Oct 2019 23:42

After the French, now it is the turn of the Americans :)

https://twitter.com/dperi84/status/1187405643008880641 ---> India-US defence cooperation: Joint working group on jet engine cooperation within the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative “has been suspended,” said Ellen M Lord, Undersecretary of Defense Acquisition and Sustainment.

https://twitter.com/dperi84/status/1187409750084018178 ---> “We could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to the Indians and we did run into a challenge in terms of US export controls,” Ms. Lord on suspension of joint working group on jet engine technology cooperation.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Oct 2019 01:58

^ We should retaliate by removing fat panting teens f16, f18 & grippen from mmrca 2.0

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7724
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 25 Oct 2019 03:02

We are not in a position to retaliate. Will not be till we become independent in the engine department.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8109
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 25 Oct 2019 11:46

What is the real issue with Kaveri. Is it a lack of money, or poor material science, or poor application of available material sciences, or lack of trained human resources, that can do the design and construction of the engine it self.

Because reading this thread, i can't really understand why the damn thing cannot be used in a fighter.

I mean we are saying that one of the major issues is screech of the AB.

Ok design a new one, if the core is ok. How expensive and difficult it really can be?

Or there is some other issue with the engine that we don't really know.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11242
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Oct 2019 11:58

I think the problem is also our Babudom does not understand complexity and importance, this whole thing of going to Russia is stupid, all Testbed and related Aircraft need to be moved to India, the sheer delays in testing and knowing the result of the changes is stupid. quite frankly there does seem to be a proper publically available source of what is goign wrong here.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Oct 2019 12:09

Rakesh wrote:After the French, now it is the turn of the Americans :)

https://twitter.com/dperi84/status/1187405643008880641 ---> India-US defence cooperation: Joint working group on jet engine cooperation within the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative “has been suspended,” said Ellen M Lord, Undersecretary of Defense Acquisition and Sustainment.

https://twitter.com/dperi84/status/1187409750084018178 ---> “We could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to the Indians and we did run into a challenge in terms of US export controls,” Ms. Lord on suspension of joint working group on jet engine technology cooperation.


meaning: we will not part with the family silver.

Useless exercise.

I hope at least the food at the meetings was worth it. :mrgreen:

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2286
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Oct 2019 12:30

Pratyush wrote:What is the real issue with Kaveri. Is it a lack of money, or poor material science, or poor application of available material sciences, or lack of trained human resources, that can do the design and construction of the engine it self


The real issue is that there is no silver bullet. What's needed to make a fighter jet engine is decades of R&D & sustained billions. Nothing less. The Americans & Russians paid that price. The Chinese are willing to. We should too. There are no shortcuts.

Was reading this excellent blog by Bernard Woolley on Tejas. Worth sharing a quote on jet engine development by Jeff Immelt

Jeff Immelt, the CEO of GE says, “If you could make something with 60 people in a garage, GE shouldn’t be doing it. But if you make a jet engine, there’s only like one and a half people in the world that can make a jet engine. And we are really good at that. If you want to compete with that, you’ve got to put yourself on a wayback machine and go back 25 years and invest $1 billion here for 25 years and then maybe, just maybe [emphasis mine], you’re going to be able to compete with us.”


https://medium.com/@BernardWoolley/debunking-some-false-arguments-about-the-lca-tejas-4c6be98f5487

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3828
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 25 Oct 2019 13:33

Prem Kumar wrote:
Pratyush wrote:What is the real issue with Kaveri. Is it a lack of money, or poor material science, or poor application of available material sciences, or lack of trained human resources, that can do the design and construction of the engine it self


The real issue is that there is no silver bullet. What's needed to make a fighter jet engine is decades of R&D & sustained billions. Nothing less. The Americans & Russians paid that price. The Chinese are willing to. We should too. There are no shortcuts.

Was reading this excellent blog by Bernard Woolley on Tejas. Worth sharing a quote on jet engine development by Jeff Immelt

Jeff Immelt, the CEO of GE says, “If you could make something with 60 people in a garage, GE shouldn’t be doing it. But if you make a jet engine, there’s only like one and a half people in the world that can make a jet engine. And we are really good at that. If you want to compete with that, you’ve got to put yourself on a wayback machine and go back 25 years and invest $1 billion here for 25 years and then maybe, just maybe [emphasis mine], you’re going to be able to compete with us.”


https://medium.com/@BernardWoolley/debunking-some-false-arguments-about-the-lca-tejas-4c6be98f5487


Exactly. We have never put the investment into building a really industry around the Kaveri. Whatever weaknesses it had, the Kaveri was running for 57 hours over a decade ago in Russia. Money should have poured in to get it past the final mile. We shouldn't have to go to Russia. We should have invested in the facilities here. We should have multiple flying testbeds. We are spending billions for ephemeral phoren gear but balk at spending billions for a critical indigenous project that will permanently enhance our aerospace industry.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7724
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 26 Oct 2019 01:41

I have been thinking about the Honeywell's decision to not play hardball of on the F125IN. It cannot be about the surety of orders or volumes. They have stuck to supplying the engines for the HTT-40 which HAL will integrate, has lower engine volumes and whose orders where very uncertain till recently.

Is it because of HTFE-25?

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 750
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby csaurabh » 26 Oct 2019 12:15

chola wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:
The real issue is that there is no silver bullet. What's needed to make a fighter jet engine is decades of R&D & sustained billions. Nothing less. The Americans & Russians paid that price. The Chinese are willing to. We should too. There are no shortcuts.

Was reading this excellent blog by Bernard Woolley on Tejas. Worth sharing a quote on jet engine development by Jeff Immelt



https://medium.com/@BernardWoolley/debunking-some-false-arguments-about-the-lca-tejas-4c6be98f5487


Exactly. We have never put the investment into building a really industry around the Kaveri. Whatever weaknesses it had, the Kaveri was running for 57 hours over a decade ago in Russia. Money should have poured in to get it past the final mile. We shouldn't have to go to Russia. We should have invested in the facilities here. We should have multiple flying testbeds. We are spending billions for ephemeral phoren gear but balk at spending billions for a critical indigenous project that will permanently enhance our aerospace industry.


One of the main things we don't pay attention to as a nation is machine, tooling and process development. We are concentrated on the final product onlee.. forgetting that the sophisticated machines that build the product are even greater challenges of engineering.
Just for example I don't think there are any machines in India to manufacture lasers, nor do we have a good idea of how to set one up. So we import the lasers onlee.. I sometimes wonder what we could have achieved as a nation if we had charismatic leaders like Vikram Sarabhai in charge of HMT in the 1960s and 70s instead of whatever doofuses were put there..

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7364
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 26 Oct 2019 13:42

With the increase in laser based additive manufacturing, guess who are the major suppliers? Germans, Americans & Chinese.

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 363
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 27 Oct 2019 00:08

Looking at above posts, what I understand is the following:

Both Reliability of engine and power output is important. Here, the Reliability of engine is easier to achieve. All the manufacturers struggled to achieve target power , and reliability crept in later.

Now, our critical requirement for a light vanilla fighter, to replace Mig 21 used as recently as Balakote, can be addressed by the LCA.

The more modern French Mirage F1, weighs 7500 kg ( all up 10900 kg) and has a 69 KN ATAR engine, weighing 1700 kg.

Our LCA is 6500 kg (9500 kg) and engine weighing 1250 kg.


Kaveri produces between 72 KN (Saurabh Jha, VK Saraswat) and 75 KN (Dr.Sateesh Reddy, Mohan Rao).

So, the building blocks of a good fighter, better than the MiG 21 exists.

In earlier posts, I have mentioned that our efforts are similar to what existed in 1990-2000 timeframe, and certainly better than the 1960-1970 Mig tech we use at present.

The critical action required here was flight testing on Tejas/Mig 29.

Both DRDO chiefs Christopher and Sateesh Reddy did not push this hard enough, IMHO. This was the big mistake.

Once that aam janata see a Kaveri powered proto flying, it will garner unbeatable support and resources, with an understanding that this represents an improvement over our current 1960s inventory, and our first efforts are better than the General Electric J79 engine, and slightly less than the F-404.

My speculation is the DRDO did not persue Flight testing , which should have happened from Sept 2017 onwards. (Christopher had then assured that Kaveri will fly by Aero India 2019.)
Another chaiwallah incident related humorously and without an iota of proof is that NDA govt.starved funds of NAL and GTRE agencies, and existing projects were on hold for 2-3 years (Till September 2019).

Apparently situation under UPA was much better wrt funds

venkat_r
BRFite
Posts: 329
Joined: 20 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby venkat_r » 27 Oct 2019 04:44

Prem Kumar wrote:
Jeff Immelt, the CEO of GE says, “If you could make something with 60 people in a garage, GE shouldn’t be doing it. But if you make a jet engine, there’s only like one and a half people in the world that can make a jet engine. And we are really good at that. If you want to compete with that, you’ve got to put yourself on a wayback machine and go back 25 years and invest $1 billion here for 25 years and then maybe, just maybe [emphasis mine], you’re going to be able to compete with us.”



Ouch! Not sure who he was referring to, about 60 people in a garage - that is the reason why it is also a very heavily guarded secret and companies go to great lengths to not share anything even remotely that can give away any iota of their knowledge away.

That would be the second thing to learn, while GTRE tries to build the engine. Also India got to play to win in this, that is keep investing $$ at a constant pace in engine development for a long time with small milestones, and be happy with the small achievements like marine engines, UCAV engines, trainer engines, etc.. as there is simply no other way. Blowing hot and cold with the funding goes nowhere.

IAF seem to be on a sensible path, with choosing GE engines for MK-2 and asking to develop a local one for AMCA, which gives some time for DRDO, and hope they make some good descisions soon in that direction.

Also we need some institutional mechanism so that this does not become hot and cold when ministers and govt changes and not subjected to the whims of bureaucracy, evolve a comprehensive program like the missile program of yesteryears.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3402
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 27 Oct 2019 06:56

venkat_r wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:



Ouch! Not sure who he was referring to, about 60 people in a garage - that is the reason why it is also a very heavily guarded secret and companies go to great lengths to not share anything even remotely that can give away any iota of their knowledge away.

That would be the second thing to learn, while GTRE tries to build the engine. Also India got to play to win in this, that is keep investing $$ at a constant pace in engine development for a long time with small milestones, and be happy with the small achievements like marine engines, UCAV engines, trainer engines, etc.. as there is simply no other way. Blowing hot and cold with the funding goes nowhere.

IAF seem to be on a sensible path, with choosing GE engines for MK-2 and asking to develop a local one for AMCA, which gives some time for DRDO, and hope they make some good descisions soon in that direction.

Also we need some institutional mechanism so that this does not become hot and cold when ministers and govt changes and not subjected to the whims of bureaucracy, evolve a comprehensive program like the missile program of yesteryears.


Programs under mission mode and critical to national security goes directly under the office of PM and the budget is assured. Perhaps someting along those lines may be considered once all actors are in place.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3828
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 27 Oct 2019 13:14

csaurabh wrote:
chola wrote:
Exactly. We have never put the investment into building a really industry around the Kaveri. Whatever weaknesses it had, the Kaveri was running for 57 hours over a decade ago in Russia. Money should have poured in to get it past the final mile. We shouldn't have to go to Russia. We should have invested in the facilities here. We should have multiple flying testbeds. We are spending billions for ephemeral phoren gear but balk at spending billions for a critical indigenous project that will permanently enhance our aerospace industry.


One of the main things we don't pay attention to as a nation is machine, tooling and process development. We are concentrated on the final product onlee.. forgetting that the sophisticated machines that build the product are even greater challenges of engineering.
Just for example I don't think there are any machines in India to manufacture lasers, nor do we have a good idea of how to set one up. So we import the lasers onlee.. I sometimes wonder what we could have achieved as a nation if we had charismatic leaders like Vikram Sarabhai in charge of HMT in the 1960s and 70s instead of whatever doofuses were put there..


Aye! If we can solve that one the impact will be greater than just the aircraft industry but across ALL Indian manufacturing. Coupled with our lower labor costs, it would make us a global trade power.

Machine tooling is the foundation of modern manufacturing and really the divide between advanced and developing nations.

I can tell you from the Fortune 500 perspective that Western grip on commercial trade is built off of Japanese and German machine tooling. Even the Soviets, in the 1980s, needed Toshiba tools to create quiet propellers for their nuke fleet. (Created major issues with Unkil.)

Bravo for bringing this up. You think in more ambitious terms than I did on this one.

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 750
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby csaurabh » 27 Oct 2019 15:24

chola wrote:
csaurabh wrote:
One of the main things we don't pay attention to as a nation is machine, tooling and process development. We are concentrated on the final product onlee.. forgetting that the sophisticated machines that build the product are even greater challenges of engineering.
Just for example I don't think there are any machines in India to manufacture lasers, nor do we have a good idea of how to set one up. So we import the lasers onlee.. I sometimes wonder what we could have achieved as a nation if we had charismatic leaders like Vikram Sarabhai in charge of HMT in the 1960s and 70s instead of whatever doofuses were put there..


Aye! If we can solve that one the impact will be greater than just the aircraft industry but across ALL Indian manufacturing. Coupled with our lower labor costs, it would make us a global trade power.

Machine tooling is the foundation of modern manufacturing and really the divide between advanced and developing nations.

I can tell you from the Fortune 500 perspective that Western grip on commercial trade is built off of Japanese and German machine tooling. Even the Soviets, in the 1980s, needed Toshiba tools to create quiet propellers for their nuke fleet. (Created major issues with Unkil.)

Bravo for bringing this up. You think in more ambitious terms than I did on this one.


Chetak ji the manufacturing sector I have come across in India closely resembles a 'services' sector mindset. The two main things that are going on are 1) build-to-print ,ie. give us the design and we will make it if we have the specific machine, and 2) assembly related activities, putting things together with screw drivers and such like. This is not even factoring the 'rebranding' of foreign made equipment as indigenous ( eg. Renesas equipment being sold under the brand 'Quantum Zero', an allegedly Indian company ). Advanced manufacturing , machines and process development is barely in the minds of our people.

The discourse on mfg. in our country is no better, it is centered around land acquisition, providing electricity, roads, labour regulations and things like that. The engineering aspects of manufacturing sophisticated products is nowhere in sight still.

To give you an example here is a laser displacement sensor
https://www3.panasonic.biz/ac/ae/fasys/ ... /index.jsp
Do we have a plan for manufacturing such a sensor from the raw materials anywhere in the country. Will we even have one in 50 yrs from now. Btw sensors of this sort are used in 100s by HAL.

Here is another one - piezo transducers
https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... p_id=10311
Don't think we will be manufacturing these anytime soon!
If you ask the geniuses in charge of HMT, HEC, etc. I don't think manufacturing LDS or PZTs will crack their top 100 in their list of concerns. They would be far more likely to be currying political favours, playing office politics, planning for 'consulting' after retirement, etc.

A lot of posts in this thread (and others) go like this: If only we have XYZ technology, we will be able to master aircraft engines. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding in the development of science and technology and the fact is that in many ways we are still a technologically backwards 3rd world nation. We are proud of our achievements such as Chandrayaan and LCA but don't seem to understand that all of these are made possible by importing a large percentage of manufacturing ecosystem from abroad. The presence of large numbers of Indians working in multi-national companies further confuses us- if 'we' are working for GE, and GE is making jet engines, surely it means that 'we' are making jet engines. Yes, I've come across this logic many times.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7848
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 27 Oct 2019 17:39

India, US suspend project for sharing jet engine technology, focus on drone warfare
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 750031.cms

Confirming that the fighter jet engine programme has been suspended, Ellen M Lord, undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, who was in the capital for a DTTI review meeting said there are other aspects of aircraft technology that can be worked on. “The original project is suspended right now. But we are talking about other potential engine working group items. We could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to the Indians and we did run into a challenge in terms of US export controls,” Lord said.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7848
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 27 Oct 2019 17:56

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1187595921221046274 ---> The India-US Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology under DTTI failed a long-time ago. Only, now is it being officially talked about. All it did was waste precious time when India could have moved forward on a different track.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1187239407796928512 ---> All this DTTI 'revitalization' is nothing but a realization that govt to govt multi-billion dollar US defence imports by India are no longer feasible, budget-wise. Hence, this newfound love for 'co-development' which has gone nowhere for the past 10 years. It's just optics.

https://twitter.com/unicAyu/status/1187605978117636096 ---> Technology is created through R&D. It is never begged or shared. Special note: Screwdriver-giri is NOT technology sharing.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 27 Oct 2019 18:38

csaurabh wrote:
chola wrote:
Aye! If we can solve that one the impact will be greater than just the aircraft industry but across ALL Indian manufacturing. Coupled with our lower labor costs, it would make us a global trade power.

Machine tooling is the foundation of modern manufacturing and really the divide between advanced and developing nations.

I can tell you from the Fortune 500 perspective that Western grip on commercial trade is built off of Japanese and German machine tooling. Even the Soviets, in the 1980s, needed Toshiba tools to create quiet propellers for their nuke fleet. (Created major issues with Unkil.)

Bravo for bringing this up. You think in more ambitious terms than I did on this one.


Chetak ji the manufacturing sector I have come across in India closely resembles a 'services' sector mindset. The two main things that are going on are 1) build-to-print ,ie. give us the design and we will make it if we have the specific machine, and 2) assembly related activities, putting things together with screw drivers and such like. This is not even factoring the 'rebranding' of foreign made equipment as indigenous ( eg. Renesas equipment being sold under the brand 'Quantum Zero', an allegedly Indian company ). Advanced manufacturing , machines and process development is barely in the minds of our people.

The discourse on mfg. in our country is no better, it is centered around land acquisition, providing electricity, roads, labour regulations and things like that. The engineering aspects of manufacturing sophisticated products is nowhere in sight still.

To give you an example here is a laser displacement sensor
https://www3.panasonic.biz/ac/ae/fasys/ ... /index.jsp
Do we have a plan for manufacturing such a sensor from the raw materials anywhere in the country. Will we even have one in 50 yrs from now. Btw sensors of this sort are used in 100s by HAL.

Here is another one - piezo transducers
https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... p_id=10311
Don't think we will be manufacturing these anytime soon!
If you ask the geniuses in charge of HMT, HEC, etc. I don't think manufacturing LDS or PZTs will crack their top 100 in their list of concerns. They would be far more likely to be currying political favours, playing office politics, planning for 'consulting' after retirement, etc.

A lot of posts in this thread (and others) go like this: If only we have XYZ technology, we will be able to master aircraft engines. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding in the development of science and technology and the fact is that in many ways we are still a technologically backwards 3rd world nation. We are proud of our achievements such as Chandrayaan and LCA but don't seem to understand that all of these are made possible by importing a large percentage of manufacturing ecosystem from abroad. The presence of large numbers of Indians working in multi-national companies further confuses us- if 'we' are working for GE, and GE is making jet engines, surely it means that 'we' are making jet engines. Yes, I've come across this logic many times.



I work with some of these guys.

Its all about the risks that they will not take and without taking the risk they want "orders" from which they want to make profits that will suffice them for a number of generations.

prices quoted are arbitrary and profit margins are rapacious.

The larger guys like well known tech companies enter into a JV or a tech support agreement and they follow the goras orders blindly without ever questioning why and they also lure engineers and technicians away from the PSUs but kick up a huge fuss if another company does the same to them.

quality control is a foreign concept.

CNC machines are mostly imported and well supported in India. They also have application engineers who work closely with these companies to exploit the features of these machines fully.

But it is unnerving that smaller countries like SL and malaysia have far superior manufacturing facilities and they are also much more professional in their approach. I personally know of a few SL companies whose parts are accepted directly into the airbus production setup without the need for any inspection at the airbus end because these SL companies have been given the green channel status by airbus. Such certification is not easy to come by.


our manpower is predatory and will change jobs at the drop of a hat if paid just a bit more by a competitor

at this time it may be more viable to import stuff like LDS or PZTs than manufacturing here. just saying onlee.

orders for defence items are few and far between and "investments" have to be made to get orders. Lower level corruption has become big these days.

you would be surprised at how much cheeni mal gets pushed into the PSU pipeline by the unscrupulous supply chain guys.

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 750
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby csaurabh » 27 Oct 2019 20:24

at this time it may be more viable to import stuff like LDS or PZTs than manufacturing here. just saying onlee.


Forget about those, we don't even have good quality soldering iron in India, a technology over 100 yrs old. We import them from Weller's at 16000-25000 Rs. each. Even something as basic as power tools we are nowhere. I recently bought my cordless drill from DeWalt.

Pvt. companies not investing into RnD is really dragging us down.

Academia has also been a huge failure in India, the fixation on Western journal papers as the academic output has resulted in mostly theoretical, Ivory-tower shut-ins who cannot be trusted with any RnD. The incentives of Indian academia don't reward national technology development at all and there are some valiant efforts here and there but no systemic scheme.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2493
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 28 Oct 2019 00:12

csaurabh wrote:
at this time it may be more viable to import stuff like LDS or PZTs than manufacturing here. just saying onlee.


Forget about those, we don't even have good quality soldering iron in India, a technology over 100 yrs old. We import them from Weller's at 16000-25000 Rs. each. Even something as basic as power tools we are nowhere. I recently bought my cordless drill from DeWalt.

Pvt. companies not investing into RnD is really dragging us down.

Academia has also been a huge failure in India, the fixation on Western journal papers as the academic output has resulted in mostly theoretical, Ivory-tower shut-ins who cannot be trusted with any RnD. The incentives of Indian academia don't reward national technology development at all and there are some valiant efforts here and there but no systemic scheme.


Most of them probably don't even know how to do R&D. And I am talking of PHD level guys. Standards of Indian academia are extremely abysymal.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3828
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 28 Oct 2019 13:59

csaurabh wrote:
at this time it may be more viable to import stuff like LDS or PZTs than manufacturing here. just saying onlee.


Forget about those, we don't even have good quality soldering iron in India, a technology over 100 yrs old. We import them from Weller's at 16000-25000 Rs. each. Even something as basic as power tools we are nowhere. I recently bought my cordless drill from DeWalt.

Pvt. companies not investing into RnD is really dragging us down.

Academia has also been a huge failure in India, the fixation on Western journal papers as the academic output has resulted in mostly theoretical, Ivory-tower shut-ins who cannot be trusted with any RnD. The incentives of Indian academia don't reward national technology development at all and there are some valiant efforts here and there but no systemic scheme.


Saurabh ji, then what do we do? I appreciate and understand the dilemma we face with these basic foundations of advanced manufacturing. But this is a national wide structural issue that cannot be fixed in time for the Kaveri or any engine we need to design for say the AMCA and beyond.

We will have to depend on foreign CNC machines and other tooling for now. But even if we to import those, we can still set up an manufacturing and testing infrastructure around the Kaveri no?

Even if we need to depend on phoren machines to maje our engine the final product is still ours. We done anything to build that support infrastructure.

But before manufacturing, there is testing and experimentation. Going to Russia to test is probably as inefficient as it sounds.

A copy of the Il-76 Gromov testbed the Kaveri flight tested on a decade ago was bought by Cheen.
Image

Cheen didn't bother building their own testbed, they bought one from Russia so their WS-10 and other projects can progress more quickly.

Imagine if we had one for the Kaveri. Where would we be today?

I don't might mind investing in imports that allow us to design, test and make the end product. I much rather invest there than importing the end product itself.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20298
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 28 Oct 2019 15:24

@chola ji,

I don't wish to rain on anyone's parade but our problems are more in the HR area and less in the facilities area. As we had access to the russki testbed then, we still have the same access today. In fact, we may now have easier access today to the testbeds in multiple countries, an option that we did not have then.

The hans send out their best and brightest to foreign universities and thereafter to work in high tech cutting edge companies with the full surety that these guys, without fail, WILL RETURN when told to.

these guys always return home because their families are not allowed to go out of china and if these guys do not return back to work in chinese institutions, consequences swiftly follow and no need to go into details gory here. All this is backed by a stupendously efficient and robustly productive industrial espionage system operating on a global scale.

The hans easily access any and every educational institution in the world because of their political and economic clout. They simply cannot be denied. We have no such access or even clout and sadly, nor do we have people of similar caliber whom we can blackmail into returning, what with being a "democracy" and all.

every alternate day some moron comes up with a list of the best 100/200/300 institutions in the world and a mere sorry handful of Indian institutions make the list, almost always nearer the bottom of all such lists.

why haven't we returned to the flying testbed with the kaveri after we last used it more than a decade ago. The answer is obvious. We have nothing to test.

We seem to have done all that we could for the present and are now looking for help to proceed further.

Don't take this the wrong way but pray tell, why do we need a horrendously expensive white elephant flying testbed.

Let us first mobilize the HR side as best we can and make sure that we indeed have something to test.

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 750
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby csaurabh » 28 Oct 2019 17:35

chola wrote:We will have to depend on foreign CNC machines and other tooling for now. But even if we to import those, we can still set up an manufacturing and testing infrastructure around the Kaveri no?

Even if we need to depend on phoren machines to maje our engine the final product is still ours. We done anything to build that support infrastructure.

But before manufacturing, there is testing and experimentation. Going to Russia to test is probably as inefficient as it sounds.

A copy of the Il-76 Gromov testbed the Kaveri flight tested on a decade ago was bought by Cheen.
Image

Cheen didn't bother building their own testbed, they bought one from Russia so their WS-10 and other projects can progress more quickly.

Imagine if we had one for the Kaveri. Where would we be today?

I don't might mind investing in imports that allow us to design, test and make the end product. I much rather invest there than importing the end product itself.


We are already doing that. For example the DRDO's Netra AWACS aircraft has a base aeroplane from Embraer on which they have mounted their radars.
When an indigenous aircraft of the same size gets ready they can make it fully indigenous.

So, no problem per se with importing the stuff needed for manufacturing and testing.

The devil is in the details. When you import something, not only do you have to pay huge cash (+maintenance), you also cannot change anything ( unless you request them, and who knows when they will get around to it ). And this is the real problem with that approach.

I myself work in such an area. Let us say you import an equipment which imparts 3.6kJ to a material in order to show some results. But to get the results which you want, you need 4.8kJ. But, boo-hoo, you can't change anything, even if it is fairly simple. without voiding the warranty/contract.

Not to mention, your understanding of the system is quite limited when you have a black box. A lot of our equipment is like that.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 53 guests