Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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JayS
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 09 Feb 2020 17:57

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:
Not dry but wet, in this context ie the intended Mil application. But in other context, as a high BPR civil jet engine for Business jet class like the Falcon series, it could.I think.

I am not so sure that he was speaking of wet thrust. I think we was speaking of materials. With a higher TET. See the quoted part below. I think with a 25 kN engine, they can easily get 40kN of wet thrust.

https://aquantumofmind.wordpress.com/2015/10/31/presentation-on-heat-resistant-coating-for-scbs-of-al-31fp-aeroindia-2015/
Q&A

Q: Why fan under loaded and HPC overloaded (looking at PR)?
A: Only core is being focused on right now. Fan/LPT design will change based on platform requirement.

Q: Surge margin for HPC targeted?
A: Not fixed. Normally its 14-19%.

Q: Which material for Turbine blades?
A: FOr IJT, TIT=1455K, so Inconel718 used. For AJT, something else can be used.

Q: What about Compressor?
A: Forged Titanium. And machined as blisks. Laser welding. First 4 stg = Ti, Last = Inconel718. HPC bolted – like in Al-55. First priority is to get Turbines and gearbox tested and validated (Other parts well within capability). Once this is done, core testing will go on for high altitude test etc, in parallel two (platform specific?) prototypes will be built.

Q: Why build 25kN engine when HAL license mfg same thrust class engines (adour-871 et al). Why not make Al-55 replacement?
A: Initially 20kN was proposed. Since Al-55 is ~17kN, a 20kN would have been good for IJT MK2. But the higher authorities went with 25kN. Wrt adour871 advantage in technology (smaller size, PR 11 vs 20, ~600mm vs ~450mm Turbine dia – huge turbine operating at lower rpm for Adour) , weight and size. So This engine while replacing Adour would give better performance. This engine can be used for Jagaur (which has 28kN engine) as well. Just need to change mounting points (and perhaps LP module?). Its very easy to adjust the design to various thrust levels by changing materials etc. Analysis already done. With similar core 35-40kN is achievable easily. SFC for this engine 0.72, better than older engines. 


HAL has a great engine on their hands. I wish they design an engine with ~36kN of dry thrust and ~54 kN of wet thrust. They can design an awesome AJT/LIFT based on that.


Thats my blog page btw and its from AI-2015. You said AI-2019. So I was thinking something else.

When HAL talks about 35-50kN for HTFE its always with A/B. Its not just about materials, whole aerothermodynamic design and system level architecture needs to be relooked at with such large change. The hot core has very limited organic growth potential with some refined redesign (called PIP in industry), typically ~2-3%. Unless some significant tech infusion happens something like from metallic to CMC blades, of that order (which is a huge change BTW), it wont give much bigger thrust without system level redesign. A big chunk of dry thrust can be changed thru tailoring LP system actually, but even then the total organic growth wont be larger than ~10%. Max 20% with all sorts of stuff added up.

HTFE uses uncooled blades. If one wants to extract significantly higher thrust with same air intake (proportionally higher intake would mean full redesign of core) means burning more fuel, that is much higher TIT. Though HTFE has a lot of margin on TIT as of now, any increase from current level would require introducing either CMC like material (currently even GE has not demonstrated CMC in HP, IIRC, rest are all lightyears behind) to keep uncooled blades, else introducing cooling for HPT/LPT blades. Introducing cooling is a tedious job, especially for a small engine. And it doesn't give the proportional benefit we may thing it would give, hiking TIT, because cooling takes up upto 25% of HPC output, proportionally reducing the air passing thru the combustion chamber. You can imagine the whole sizing of the engine would need a relook with such change. Then there is a matter of making cooling air channels/spaces in the engine, which would increase complexities of entire secondary air system by orders of magnitude. I'll leave it at this.

The Tech gap between HTFE and Kaveri is huge. But a Geometrically scaled larger engine with same tech level as HTFE can be built for 35kN dry thrust, but it will essentially be a different engine.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2020 21:52

The Japanese are the world leaders in CMC. GE is bringing that technology to bear in the LEAP engines.But IHI has already flown that their Xf5-1 engines which also uses CMCs in the their ShinShin X-2 aircraft. The XF5-1 generate 49 kN of wet thrust with an HTFE sized engine. The XF9 figures are even more spectacular.

That's why, I have been saying. Don't do all these ToT business with Safran etc. for next generation Kaveri. Collaborating with Japan could enable us to leapfrog a generation of engines.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 09 Feb 2020 22:03

Despite the PM's personal equation with the Japanese premier, we have not been able to bring a simple bird like US2. Even if we want to, the Japanese will not help us, given their sense of superiority over Asia and potentially creating another "China" to challenge that.

It doesn't help, we are in good terms with the US. Fear we might elbow them out...

Sadly, i don't see Japanese helping us in this venture..

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 09 Feb 2020 22:27

Indranil wrote:The Japanese are the world leaders in CMC. GE is bringing that technology to bear in the LEAP engines.But IHI has already flown that their Xf5-1 engines which also uses CMCs in the their ShinShin X-2 aircraft. The XF5-1 generate 49 kN of wet thrust with an HTFE sized engine. The XF9 figures are even more spectacular.

That's why, I have been saying. Don't do all these ToT business with Safran etc. for next generation Kaveri. Collaborating with Japan could enable us to leapfrog a generation of engines.


japan has always been rather wary of India.

They used India's nuclear explosion to tilt towards the pakis even though the pakis were up to all kinds of no good and outright hanky panky.

They want India's huge market and nothing more. So it wil be limited to cars, trains, and things of "low" high tech

India is being sold a pup by these guys. They want defence cooperation on their terms to counter china and have so far bamboozled us with hondas and suzukis and collaborating with japan will only get us more refrigerators, aircons and microwaves, period.

Engine tech we will never get from them.

they are only a few screwdriver turns away from long range missiles and nukes as well.

Under the ameriki nuke umbrella, they have had more than enough money saved from a true military budget to plough back into developing their economy.

They already had a very deep and widespread MIC before things went south for them at the end of WWII.

They have recovered well and consolidated their original strengths under the guise of an existential threat from the hans.

like the germans, they plan to rise again and will brook no upstarts in asia to slow them down.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby pandyan » 09 Feb 2020 22:39

Indranil wrote:The Japanese are the world leaders in CMC. GE is bringing that technology to bear in the LEAP engines.But IHI has already flown that their Xf5-1 engines which also uses CMCs in the their ShinShin X-2 aircraft. The XF5-1 generate 49 kN of wet thrust with an HTFE sized engine. The XF9 figures are even more spectacular.

That's why, I have been saying. Don't do all these ToT business with Safran etc. for next generation Kaveri. Collaborating with Japan could enable us to leapfrog a generation of engines.


What's in it for Japanese to collaborate with us saar?

why not just purchase required CMC tech?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 09 Feb 2020 22:55

The engine angle is worth persuing IMHO. The Japanese are advance but not established. If they can get another country to use their engines, it would be a coup for them against the Western monopoly.

We will never be able to get equal terms with GE/PW/RR/SaFran. We can with IHI. At least the chances are better.

That said, we need to realize that Japan is also an Asian power and as such they will have their own agenda. Not least, they play their own game with Cheen. Not sure many of us realize that Japan is the original holder of the Japan-Korea-China Trilateral Summit which aims to unite Northeast Asia. Obviously, an EU-like setup of the chini-type races would be immensely powerful and the Japanese like any rational power would pursue it. We just need to know and understand their game as well.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2020 23:31

The Japanese have had ample opportunity to participate in one of India’s most high value military contests - Project 75I. But they never committed to the contest. The Soryu Class is leaps and bounds ahead on any other boat in the P75I contest. Then Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar even asked them to participate. Still they were non-committal.

On what basis will they assist India in developing a low bypass turbofan?

Saurav Jha is right. Safran and Rolls Royce are the leading contenders in the 110 kN turbofan project for AMCA.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 10 Feb 2020 00:04

Rakesh wrote:Saurav Jha is right. Safran and Rolls Royce are the leading contenders in the 110 kN turbofan project for AMCA.

Admiral, you are correct. The Japanese angle is just an interesting angle to look at. The reality is it will be one of the western firms.

But I think we will also need to face a reality that the 110kN engine might end up like our AL-31 for the MKI. We will make this engine even with a large major of Indian part but we can use it for AMCA onlee. I hope not but what are the chances they will help us build an engine that will lead to our independence?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 10 Feb 2020 00:31

Rakesh wrote:The Japanese have had ample opportunity to participate in one of India’s most high value military contests - Project 75I. But they never committed to the contest. The Soryu Class is leaps and bounds ahead on any other boat in the P75I contest. Then Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar even asked them to participate. Still they were non-committal.

All this fantasizing about some sort of bi-lateral cooperation with Japan on either propulsion, or 5th generation aircraft technologies completely disregard some of the most important factors and that is experience in executing such deals. The Japanese defense bureaucracy and system just doesn't do these sort of deals and the little that they do is almost always with one partner that is clearly in a dominant position. Those who work on the US-Japan AEGIS partnership, which by all accounts is extensive and successful, describe making minor tweaks and changes as "fighting a hundred battles" as it is extremely slow to come to a consensus and move ahead.
Last edited by brar_w on 10 Feb 2020 00:38, edited 1 time in total.

Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Feb 2020 00:33

Let them supply the part(s). We can design the engine. That's the same setup they have with GE/Safran.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 10 Feb 2020 00:55

Japan doesn't have the policy framework for largescale arms exports. It is still anathema to them. Technological collaboration and interaction is something palatable to them, but outright bidding in products is something that would get lost in their internecine domestic politics very quickly, and pretty much any leader would quietly sidestep the idea just to avoid stepping on domestic political landmines.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby csaurabh » 12 Feb 2020 14:21

https://www.defencexp.com/view-blog.php?cid=280

Country Lacks Testing Facilities for Aircraft Engines: Kota Harinarayana

One of the reasons for the delay in developing the indigenous Kaveri Engine for fighter aircraft is the lack of testing facilities in the country, aircraft designer and the father of Light Combat Aircraft, Kota Harinarayana, said. He was talking at the IIT-Industry conclave organised by the IIT-Alumni Centre (IIT-ACB) Bengaluru on Saturday.
Kota said a facility to test each of the modules — the fan, compressor, combustor, turbine, nozzle — before validation is necessary. “With the best of the engineers, I have to go through three or four iterations.” ven for a small test one has to go to Russia or elsewhere, making it a time-consuming process and leaving very little opportunity to scale up or down, test and validate the components, he added.
India does not even have a fully functional wind tunnel facility. Nor does it have a facility to simulate an engine that will work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above ground, he pointed out. All these decades we have been talking about the engine without giving the infrastructure to do the job, he added.
While the LCA was backed by a national team — with the IITs, academia, and R&D laboratories joining in, a similar system was not put in places in case of the development of the Kaveri engine, he said.
Kota said that the engine was fit for use in an unmanned combat air vehicle. However, there is still a long way to go for an unmanned combat fighter aircraft and fifth generation fighter jet.
Highlighting the ‘jugaad’ solution to problems in India, he said Indians do not believe in systems, processes, systems engineering and tend to lose more time.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nash » 14 Feb 2020 00:55

https://www.isro.gov.in/high-altitude-f ... ccessfully

.... in high altitude simulation test facility during December 2016.

To test the Engine at flight identical conditions, High Altitude Test (HAT) facility was established at IPRC, Mahendragiri.



It may be a stupid question but is it possible to use or build facility like IPRC, Mahendragiri to simulate high altitude testing of Jet Engine?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 14 Feb 2020 00:59

nash wrote:
https://www.isro.gov.in/high-altitude-f ... ccessfully

.... in high altitude simulation test facility during December 2016.

To test the Engine at flight identical conditions, High Altitude Test (HAT) facility was established at IPRC, Mahendragiri.



It may be a stupid question but is it possible to use or build facility like IPRC, Mahendragiri to simulate high altitude testing of Jet Engine?


No, air density, air speed, environmental buffeting, etc. cannot be recreated on a ground lab with 100% certainty. You can't even do that with a car engine. Must be trialed in a vehicle to finalize test results.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nash » 14 Feb 2020 01:33

chola wrote:
nash wrote:
It may be a stupid question but is it possible to use or build facility like IPRC, Mahendragiri to simulate high altitude testing of Jet Engine?


No, air density, air speed, environmental buffeting, etc. cannot be recreated on a ground lab with 100% certainty. You can't even do that with a car engine. Must be trialed in a vehicle to finalize test results.


It is simulation so we cannot get 100% flight environment. In the article posted above, Kota Harinarayan said "... Nor does it have a facility to simulate an engine that will work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above ground, he pointed out".

Done some googling, got this:

https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 1-01-2972/

A High Altitude Test Program has been recently completed by Pratt & Whitney in conjunction with NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration) and MTU (Motoren-und Turbinen-Union, Munchen GmbH) to test an instrumented, “off-the-shelf”, commercial turbofan engine to altitudes >65,000 ft for suitability for high altitude applications.
The two-phase test program has been conducted at the Propulsion Systems Laboratory of the Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio. The 1st phase (Aug ‘99) investigated the basic performance and operability characteristics in order to identify any shortcomings. The 2nd phase (May ‘01) investigated the response to inlet distortion and high power off-takes, and included extensive steady state and transient instrumentation in the low pressure turbine for the correlation of analytical predictions.


There are other similar example here:

https://www.arnold.af.mil/About-Us/Fact ... -facility/

this one i think is Japanese:

http://www.aero.jaxa.jp/publication/pam ... cility.pdf


Not sure do we have these kind of facility in India to test the jet engine.


There are

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2020 02:13

csaurabh wrote:https://www.defencexp.com/view-blog.php?cid=280

Country Lacks Testing Facilities for Aircraft Engines: Kota Harinarayana

One of the reasons for the delay in developing the indigenous Kaveri Engine for fighter aircraft is the lack of testing facilities in the country, aircraft designer and the father of Light Combat Aircraft, Kota Harinarayana, said. He was talking at the IIT-Industry conclave organised by the IIT-Alumni Centre (IIT-ACB) Bengaluru on Saturday.
Kota said a facility to test each of the modules — the fan, compressor, combustor, turbine, nozzle — before validation is necessary. “With the best of the engineers, I have to go through three or four iterations.” Even for a small test one has to go to Russia or elsewhere, making it a time-consuming process and leaving very little opportunity to scale up or down, test and validate the components, he added.
India does not even have a fully functional wind tunnel facility. Nor does it have a facility to simulate an engine that will work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above ground, he pointed out. All these decades we have been talking about the engine without giving the infrastructure to do the job, he added.
While the LCA was backed by a national team — with the IITs, academia, and R&D laboratories joining in, a similar system was not put in places in case of the development of the Kaveri engine, he said.

Kota said that the engine was fit for use in an unmanned combat air vehicle. However, there is still a long way to go for an unmanned combat fighter aircraft and fifth generation fighter jet.
Highlighting the ‘jugaad’ solution to problems in India, he said Indians do not believe in systems, processes, systems engineering and tend to lose more time.



From the outset the Kaveri was setup to fail.
No national team support system,
No testing facilities.
And low level of funding.
Its a miracle that the team produced the engine so far.

Its great that the Kaveri was de-linked to the Tejas right in the beginning for the plan looks like was to fail both.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Feb 2020 12:14

We desperately need a test bed aircraft and test beds to test these engines. Hope some one takes the right decesion.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 21 Feb 2020 12:30

Trump Uncle intending to stop LEAP engine sales to China's C919 programme should open the eyes of mandarins in MOD about importance of self reliance in this field. Extremely unsettling that our entire 30 year effort in Tejas programme is presently still dependant on whims and fancies of US govt .
It would be a good idea for Tejas Mk2\ MWF to be certified on EJ 200 also.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Feb 2020 13:17

There need to be two programs for engines at the minimum

1. FIX Kaveri
- Bring it to 55/85 KN specs of F404, so a replacement for GE404 is available in 5 years time

2. Work on a parallel program for the 70/115KN engine for AMCA available in 10 years' time.

Hopefully, the govt is paying attention to both the requirements carefully.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 21 Feb 2020 18:04

arvin wrote:Trump Uncle intending to stop LEAP engine sales to China's C919 programme should open the eyes of mandarins in MOD about importance of self reliance in this field. Extremely unsettling that our entire 30 year effort in Tejas programme is presently still dependant on whims and fancies of US govt .
It would be a good idea for Tejas Mk2\ MWF to be certified on EJ 200 also.


We need MONEY in the Kaveri program to carry it over the finish line.

But instead the program got a pathetic $500m over its whole development life while we are preparing to spend $5B on phoren helicopters that directly compete with LUH and LCH.

We are one of greatest defense importers on earth but so cheap on critical indigenous programs. We deserve it if we are embargoed.


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