Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 22 Dec 2020 02:08

chola wrote:I meant an engine in the heavy class which would give more leadway in upscaling power.


No the idea would be to keep it in the same size/weight and improve other performance parameters like higher dry thrust, better thrust to weight ratio, IR signature management features, and other stealth compliant updates. Ideally, this should align with something that RR is doing for the Tempest.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 22 Dec 2020 02:11

chola wrote:^^^ Understood, Saar. I meant an engine in the heavy class which would give more leadway in upscaling power. I did not mean using the AL-31 specifically.

I used the AL-31 as an example (because we already have hundreds of them). The same argument will apply for other similar engines (PW F100, GE F110 etc). The original question was, why do we need a new engine making 110kN exactly when we already have existing engines making 125kN, 140kN etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 22 Dec 2020 02:19

nachiket wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Understood, Saar. I meant an engine in the heavy class which would give more leadway in upscaling power. I did not mean using the AL-31 specifically.

I used the AL-31 as an example (because we already have hundreds of them). The same argument will apply for other similar engines (PW F100, GE F110 etc). The original question was, why do we need a new engine making 110kN exactly when we already have existing engines making 125kN, 140kN etc.


Right, we've designed the AMCA around the dimensions of a medium class engine. So a new 110kN medium class engine was needed. Anything else would be moot as things now stands with the AMCA.

BUT if we had decided to design the AHCA instead, I think the chances of success might be a little bit better without the constraints of the smaller size to generate greater power and also we already have experience with a heavyweight engine in the AL-31 and a very heavy fighter in the SU-30MKI. Again that's my opinion.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 22 Dec 2020 02:24

Let me move the engine discussion posts to the appropriate thread. Not sure how it ended up here when the Tejas is never going to need or use this proposed engine.

EDIT: Done. Please continue any engine related discussion here.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Dec 2020 12:28

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:So I'm just wondering. Why do they need 110kn engines? The world offers 8kn, 9kn, 12.5kn, 13.5kn ityadi ityadi but we need 110kn. Right in the middle. Sounds like another lightest, smallest boondoggle to me. Another 25 years and they'll be looking for engines from some other country and need to redesign the plane to boot.

Between import lobby, byzantine mod, brochuritis stricken armed forces, and scientific community that is in love with itself, I'm surprised India is still around.

The engine is needed for the AMCA, which based on the specs looks to be roughly in the size/weight class of the F-35 (a bit smaller/lighter perhaps). You cannot fit 2 large F100/AL-31 sized engines in such an aircraft and still have a good enough T:W ratio and enough internal space for fuel plus an internal weapons bay.

If it is to be a 2 engined aircraft the engines will need to be in the F414 size/weight category but provide more thrust. Such an engine does not exist yet but might be possible for us to develop with help from an external partner like RR.

The other option is what the Americans went with...a single monstrously powerful engine that is way beyond our capability to design and develop. The Americans won't sell us the F135 of course and continuing our dependency on 100% foreign engines is not a good idea anyway. Even if you somehow did get the F135, it would entail junking all the design work that has gone into the AMCA till now and starting from scratch.

But that's my entire point. Why is India hell-bent on designing products that have no analogues elsewhere? Ultimately, they land up somewhere very close to the analogue anyway.

If they want a smaller 5g bird that cannot be managed with a10 ton engine then they need to really think of going with something much larger which can be backed by bigger engines.

Stealth fighters are inherently hard to keep light thanks to their need to have loads on internal fuel and an internal weapons bay.

The amca is uncomfortablly reminiscent of the lightest, smallest 5500kg lca original design. And we all know where that went. And that was a non stealth design.

This did not bode well imvho.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Dec 2020 12:30

m_saini wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Another 25 years and they'll be looking for engines from some other country and need to redesign the plane to boot.

Between import lobby, byzantine mod, brochuritis stricken armed forces, and scientific community that is in love with itself, I'm surprised India is still around.


+1
We couldn't even get the Kaveri to fly despite seeking help from the french through Rafale offsets but we dream of getting a 110kN in the next 15 years through RR or indegenously. Didn't the Russians refuse to part with 5g tech of FGFA despite us committing billions in purchases? Why do we think RR will help us develop a 110kN engine when it's an even more elusive tech? Or do we seriously think we can develop it ourselves in the next 13-15 years?

Aimfor the stars approach. All great but it makes for plenty of room for imports in the meanwhile when deadlines are missed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 22 Dec 2020 12:58

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:The engine is needed for the AMCA, which based on the specs looks to be roughly in the size/weight class of the F-35 (a bit smaller/lighter perhaps). You cannot fit 2 large F100/AL-31 sized engines in such an aircraft and still have a good enough T:W ratio and enough internal space for fuel plus an internal weapons bay.

If it is to be a 2 engined aircraft the engines will need to be in the F414 size/weight category but provide more thrust. Such an engine does not exist yet but might be possible for us to develop with help from an external partner like RR.

The other option is what the Americans went with...a single monstrously powerful engine that is way beyond our capability to design and develop. The Americans won't sell us the F135 of course and continuing our dependency on 100% foreign engines is not a good idea anyway. Even if you somehow did get the F135, it would entail junking all the design work that has gone into the AMCA till now and starting from scratch.

But that's my entire point. Why is India hell-bent on designing products that have no analogues elsewhere? Ultimately, they land up somewhere very close to the analogue anyway.

If they want a smaller 5g bird that cannot be managed with a10 ton engine then they need to really think of going with something much larger which can be backed by bigger engines.

Stealth fighters are inherently hard to keep light thanks to their need to have loads on internal fuel and an internal weapons bay.

The amca is uncomfortablly reminiscent of the lightest, smallest 5500kg lca original design. And we all know where that went. And that was a non stealth design.

This did not bode well imvho.


Why wouldn't it work for India ? ..there are more than enough numbers that are required for it to be economically viable.! .. and more so for its succeessive iterations. ,

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby hemant_sai » 22 Dec 2020 13:00

It is very obvious that IAF is not entirely willing to stop imports. They are smart in giving requirements that are meant to fail the project over time.
But what about ADA, if they are intelligent, they should call out IAF bluff right upfront and should not agree to such cunning requirements.
Same for Arjun, DRDO-CVRDE team should have done the changes only with prior agreement on weight increase. Was it that difficult for CVRDE team to estimate it upfront?
If we follow the policy that Armed Forces will have final say all the time then this circus is not going to stop.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Dec 2020 13:07

kit wrote:Why wouldn't it work for India ? ..there are more than enough numbers that are required for it to be economically viable.! .. and more so for its succeessive iterations. ,

The numbers saar are pie in sky. Look at Tejas orders and weep. Mk1a still not ordered. All indications point to massive hafta to big powers via fteen. It won't work for the same reasons that it didn't work for the tejas.

When time comes and the amca is not uber xwing, IAF will shoot it down with inadequate kpi. Then a new cycle of development is likely. In the meantime imports can continue, jsf pakfa ityadi.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Dec 2020 13:13

hemant_sai wrote:It is very obvious that IAF is not entirely willing to stop imports. They are smart in giving requirements that are meant to fail the project over time.
But what about ADA, if they are intelligent, they should call out IAF bluff right upfront and should not agree to such cunning requirements.
Same for Arjun, DRDO-CVRDE team should have done the changes only with prior agreement on weight increase. Was it that difficult for CVRDE team to estimate it upfront?
If we follow the policy that Armed Forces will have final say all the time then this circus is not going to stop.

There is more to it than just IAF sqrs. The ada is happy to go along because it receives funding for continuing a science project. The product that will no doubt have spin offs, but will fall short of making India an aviation powerhouse.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 22 Dec 2020 13:42

Cain Marko wrote:But that's my entire point. Why is India hell-bent on designing products that have no analogues elsewhere? Ultimately, they land up somewhere very close to the analogue anyway.

If they want a smaller 5g bird that cannot be managed with a10 ton engine then they need to really think of going with something much larger which can be backed by bigger engines.

Stealth fighters are inherently hard to keep light thanks to their need to have loads on internal fuel and an internal weapons bay.

The amca is uncomfortablly reminiscent of the lightest, smallest 5500kg lca original design. And we all know where that went. And that was a non stealth design.

This did not bode well imvho.


I have the same sense of unease. We are really an outlier here.

The USAF went with a heavy engine fleet with the F100/F110 for their F-16/F-15 main stays. Cheen went with the same heavy class of engines with the AL-31/WS-10 for their backbone J-10/J-11. Russia is centered around the SU-30 with the AL-31/41.

These are all continental-sized nations that decided on a heavyweight class engine to allow size and load for fighters that defend a large area. Their current and future stealth aircraft are all based on heavyweight class engines too.

The only place where the medium engine exists for them is with the carrier plane where size is restricted by the flight deck.

India is also a continental-sized country like the US, Cheen and Russia. Our current backbone is the giant SU-30.

But with the AMCA design we are centering around a lightweight stealth aircraft that is constrained like it were for the carrier.

I fervently wish it will work out but it seems we are making things harder for ourselves by arbitrarily boxing ourselves into smaller dimensions than necessary to generate the power needed.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby m_saini » 22 Dec 2020 19:00

The only other 5th gen (or would be 5th gen) fighter is the KAI KF-X which is similar to the AMCA in weight. Koreans afaik also have no plans to upgrade their engines from the F414.

Considering the chief's comment that from 2nd squadron onwards they only want the desi 110kN powerplant, I don't think it bodes too well for our "ghar ki murgi" AMCA :roll:

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Dec 2020 19:55

Cain Marko wrote:But that's my entire point. Why is India hell-bent on designing products that have no analogues elsewhere? Ultimately, they land up somewhere very close to the analogue anyway.


AMCA, KF-X, and, to some extent, even the Tempest (should easily need at least EJ-200 + 20% increase in thrust) and FCAS are likely to benefit from a similar class (thrust-weight, size etc) of engines. Looking out, even the J-35 would require something very similar so even China has a need for something in this class. So certainly, ADA and HAL aren't out there by themselves in terms of what they can use on the AMCA as far as propulsion requirements are concerned. Others with their requirements have been led to a path where they too are likely considering or actively pursuing a new generation of engines that have that 20-30% thrust increase over the previous engines of similar size.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 22 Dec 2020 20:25

^^^ Brar ji, J-35 is a twin-engined carrier fighter. It's original form, the FC-31, was rejected by the PLAAF in favor of the hulking J-20.

So chinis are developing their medium 110kN (WS-19) mainly for the carrier niche and maybe as an upgrade to the JF-17 (which was also rejected by the PLAAF.)

Like the Americans, they are using heavy class engines onlee for their backbone which are the new WS-10 variants and upcoming WS-15. The PLAAF will not use the medium 110kN at least not in any roadmap that I could see now.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Dec 2020 20:43

chola wrote:^^^ Brar ji, J-35 is a twin-engined carrier fighter. It's original form, the FC-31, was rejected by the PLAAF in favor of the hulking J-20.


So is it a fighter with a similar engine requirement or not? Naval, or land based doesn't matter. China has an A2AD strategy and based on it, as a silver bullet force, the J-20 was a more appropriate allocation of resources (they were also probably further along then that) in the 2015-2030 time-frame. But come 2030, 2040 and 2050, they'll need a mass produced stealth design as stealth won't just be a silver bullet force but needed more broadly. So they too have a potential land based, medium-sized stealth aircraft (which is the most popular category of stealth fighters regardless of whether you are a continent sized country or not) just like everyone else.

In the current generation of aircraft, you had F-18, Typhoon, Rafael, Gripen, LCA and MiG-29 share similar thrust and class engines. Moving over to the next gen, you'll have AMCA, KF-X, Tempest, FCAS, F/A-XX, and possibly some single engine applications (UCAVs) that will utilize a similar class of engines with a 10-20% thrust increase. That is doable moving from 4-4.5 gen to 5-5.5 gen or beyond. For reference, USAF's, AETP is a 10-15% thrust bump over the F-135 ( a 5th gen fighter engine) and fits into the F-35. So RR should be able to achieve that 15-20% thrust increase over the EJ-200 in a roughly similar class of engine as the Typhoon's. They don't have to do it tomorrow but by the early to mid 2030s, it is completely doable. And it is simply wrong to assume that ADA or HAL somehow created an aircraft with very unique engine requirements. That's not true as there would be plenty of aircraft that would need this level of propulsion capability.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 22 Dec 2020 23:20

^^^ As usual, Brar ji, you make very solid points. But it seems to me that if you are asking for an engine that it is only 15 kNs off from a heavyweight class engine then it would be easier to use the heavyweight engine? And we have experience with the AL-31.

All the larger countries use the heavyweight class engines almost exclusively except for niche things like carriers. The smaller powers use smaller engines and smaller mainline fighters.

From what I've seen of the PLAAF, they've pretty much rejected the medium engine by skipping the FC-1 and kicking the FC-31 to the side. Their massed produced 5th gen is more likely to be a single-engine plane based on uprated WS-10/WS-15 than the J-35 IMO.

The VVS has completely moved away from the medium engine. They might or might not enhance the RD-33 for the 29K or the MiG-35 (if anyone buys it.) Again only for carrier and exports.

I really think our needs are different from Korea or the EU countries and would rather we have gone with a heavier design to make use of the greater power. Again, this is moot since we are far along with the AMCA and will need the 110kN medium engine.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Dec 2020 23:35

chola wrote:^^^ As usual, Brar ji, you make very solid points. But it seems to me that if you are asking for an engine that it is only 15 kNs off from a heavyweight class engine then it would be easier to use the heavyweight engine? And we have experience with the AL-31.


That is illogical. Why upsize the engine, increase its weight, and fuel consumption and impose a higher airframe design penalty when you can piggy back on advances made in the last 15-20 years around propulsion? That would be something that RR would be doing for the Tempest given that the spec is likely to call for a EJ200 +10-20% like capability (given other metrics like affordability). The US Navy is likely to also lead down a similar (F414 +10-20%) path, as far as generalized thrust increase is concerned, for its F/A-XX.

The USAF's XA101 and XA102 engine prototypes that are currently in final assembly are roughly 10-15% above F-135 thrust levels. Yet they didn't ask for an engine that is larger than the F-135. In fact, requirements were to allow F-135 to be replaced by offshoot of either. Of course there are other more harder to achieve requirements for next generation propulsion progams than thrust increase but this is a good reference. And keep in mind that F414 and EJ200 are decades old technology. So gains should easily be as much or more even assuming a less technically advanced engine development path for RR (which would mirror Tempest investment). So if the MOD and the UK Govt. can work out a mutually agreeable plan to use something very closely related to the tempest engine then there is a path for the AMCA to piggy back on some 5+ generation propulsion. Of course easier said than done form a partnership, workshare and other negotiations stand point. But it is most definitely logical to consider it if BoJo wants to play ball.

I really think our needs are different from Korea or the EU countries and would rather we have gone with a heavier design to make use of the greater power. Again, this is moot since we are far along with the AMCA and will need the 110kN medium engine.


Heavier, larger engine (twin config) = heavy fighter because of the knockdown impact on the aircraft design. Could the IAF afford a heavy stealth fighter to replace the hundreds of MiG-29's, M2K's, and other aircraft in its inventory that the AMCA can begin replacing? There is a reason that the F-35 +/- 10% size/weight/payload class is the most popular as far as FGFA is concerned. It replaces the widest possible pool of fielded aircraft and is significantly more affordable than the very high end requirements on a heavy fighter - not to mention technically less risky.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2021 22:55

Next time when HAL says that they are building the AL-31FP from raw materials in India, please think about this....

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 96994?s=20 ---> More than 5,000 jet engines has been produced in the country and most of them are under licensed production. The engine is still something that needs to be produced in the country and I think that dream of making our own engine and flying in an aircraft should be soon a reality: DRDO Chief

Image


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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Feb 2021 12:24

46KN dry thrust engine at 1180 KG weight , We can use these Jaguar upgrade and LCA Lift Trainers, slowly we will get better, reduce weight, get the relevant data and can lead to an AMCA class engine 15 years down the line.

GE 404 IN20 has a pressure ratio of 28:1 while the above engine has 3.4:1 - can anyone explain what this means. GE 404 IN who have been working on Jet engines for 3 Generations now makes 55KN dry thrust from 1072 KG engine.

But a baby needs to Turn, Crawl, stand , walk before it runs. Similarly the Indian production ecosystem like our Missiles which started with short range unstable liquid fuel can now take down satellites with IR seekers we need to start somewhere.

We would not had a deterrence capability if the Indian Armed forces demanded the Prithvi in 1995 match the similar US, European and Russian missiles specks at that time.

China could export is 2nd tier Solid Fuel missiles to Pakistan as we could do nothing. 25 years on things have changed dramatically. We are inducting Agni -V which CHina has stated an 8K range while Pakistan is firing its Chinese missiles for 600km and claiming 1500km range to fool Mango Abduls.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Neela » 04 Feb 2021 13:07

Aditya_V wrote:
GE 404 IN20 has a pressure ratio of 28:1 while the above engine has 3.4:1 - can anyone explain what this means. GE 404 IN who have been working on Jet engines for 3 Generations now makes 55KN dry thrust from 1072 KG engine.

.


Already discussed before by Maitya and detailed comparison in other thread. The Pressure ratio above is only for the fan.Kaveri OPR is around 22:1

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Kailash » 04 Feb 2021 19:08

22 is still very low OPR. We are slowly getting there in terms of materials, SCB, blisk, thermal barrier coatings etc. Why is design lagging, though computing power and CFD/CAD should've improved many folds in the past 30 years?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 04 Feb 2021 19:28

Kaveri just required sustained funding to get all the testing platform and SCB production.

We don't have to use Kaveri on LCA to test. Ideally a A320/330 type platform or Mig29. If not, the next best thing is UAV. Create a test UAV for Kaveri testing.

All you need is a UAV which can take Kaveri and fly, No stealth, no ATOL yada yada required. Just a flying platform. It crashes, we get another UAV and kaveri.

Money is what is required.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Neela » 04 Feb 2021 21:09

Kailash wrote:22 is still very low OPR. We are slowly getting there in terms of materials, SCB, blisk, thermal barrier coatings etc. Why is design lagging, though computing power and CFD/CAD should've improved many folds in the past 30 years?


Please read Maitya Sir's posts. Everything is detailed. You will need atleast 50 hours to process the copious amount of technical information he has posted.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 04 Feb 2021 22:05

https://twitter.com/TejForTweet/status/ ... 6444184580
Here is the big news
India has already started working with Rolls-Royce on engine development.
1) It is a joint partnership.
2) Feasibility study and tech development roadmap is going-on
3) Timeline is one year; post that formal contract signing (maybe)
Quote Tweet

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 05 Feb 2021 22:29

HAL, Rolls-Royce expand partnership

BENGALURU: HAL and Rolls-Royce have agreed to expand their partnership in India for collaboration in two areas augmenting the supply chain for both Civil and Defence Aerospace and establishing an authorised maintenance centre for Adour Mk871 engines to support Rolls-Royce's global customers. Through these new collaborations, the two companies will build on their partnership of over 60 years, wherein Rolls- Royce engines have been 'Made in India' and supported by HAL under license from Rolls- Royce, a joint statement said.

HAL CMD R Madhavan said: "We are looking at new areas of cooperation and exports to countries which Rolls-Royce and HAL together contribute to in aerospace application."

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Kailash » 06 Feb 2021 12:21

Neela wrote:Please read Maitya Sir's posts. Everything is detailed. You will need atleast 50 hours to process the copious amount of technical information he has posted.


Yes I did read through many of it, so much of gyan contained in those. In the number of years passed since that compilation, have our capabilities and designs thought process advanced enough to warrant a serious new effort ?

GE doesn't want to provide hot core tech, whatever Safran offers we don't see it as value. RRs offer is yet to take off in any meaningful way. DRDO now talks about an engine complex coming up with an international partner within the year. Who is this partner going to be and why would they give us the technology?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Feb 2021 19:34

Kailash wrote:
Neela wrote:Please read Maitya Sir's posts. Everything is detailed. You will need atleast 50 hours to process the copious amount of technical information he has posted.


Yes I did read through many of it, so much of gyan contained in those. In the number of years passed since that compilation, have our capabilities and designs thought process advanced enough to warrant a serious new effort ?

GE doesn't want to provide hot core tech, whatever Safran offers we don't see it as value. RRs offer is yet to take off in any meaningful way. DRDO now talks about an engine complex coming up with an international partner within the year. Who is this partner going to be and why would they give us the technology?


no one will part with the "core" technology and certainly not RR, under any circumstances.

India entering the weapons export market has already set the cat among the pigeons. If India built aero engines are, at some time, going to be part of the export package, it will seriously hurt all of our current suppliers.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 06 Feb 2021 20:07

chetak wrote:
Kailash wrote:
Yes I did read through many of it, so much of gyan contained in those. In the number of years passed since that compilation, have our capabilities and designs thought process advanced enough to warrant a serious new effort ?

GE doesn't want to provide hot core tech, whatever Safran offers we don't see it as value. RRs offer is yet to take off in any meaningful way. DRDO now talks about an engine complex coming up with an international partner within the year. Who is this partner going to be and why would they give us the technology?


no one will part with the "core" technology and certainly not RR, under any circumstances.

India entering the weapons export market has already set the cat among the pigeons. If India built aero engines are, at some time, going to be part of the export package, it will seriously hurt all of our current suppliers.


i presume unkle is going to come up with restrictions for Tejas exports

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Feb 2021 20:36

kit wrote:
chetak wrote:
no one will part with the "core" technology and certainly not RR, under any circumstances.

India entering the weapons export market has already set the cat among the pigeons. If India built aero engines are, at some time, going to be part of the export package, it will seriously hurt all of our current suppliers.


i presume unkle is going to come up with restrictions for Tejas exports


India is just unkil sam's latest aashiqui, one of the many he has had over the years and he is already looking for the next politically nubile conquest to suit joe's taste.

unkil has already burned thru angrezi, turki, saudi and paki, his previous aashiquis, to all of whom the old reprobate had sworn eternal love.

unkil owns the tejas engines and so "exports" will need his express sign off, which may not be so easily forthcoming.

unless of course, some customer wants the tejas with kirloskar diesels. :mrgreen:

but we can do a good line in coast guard type vessels, or mid range men of war with a customer furnished offensive suite. We already do a fairly nice line in radars and sensors and somewhat ageing MBTs.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby darshan » 06 Feb 2021 20:46

chetak wrote:no one will part with the "core" technology and certainly not RR, under any circumstances..


Just based on the security reasons alone I won't part with it. Any day I believe that I can keep what's important to be more secure by keeping it to myself. If it's a technology that chinese acquire, then may be I'll think about it but certainly not as long as chinese need to acquire it.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 06 Feb 2021 22:48

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 55968?s=20 ---> Potentially BIG NEWS!! HAL & Safran Aircraft Engines sign MoU for collaboration in the Development, Manufacture, Maintenance, Training & Upgrade of High-thrust Aero-Engines. The MoU's scope encompasses a wide spectrum including transfer of key manufacturing technologies & MRO of M-88 Rafale & other engines and the development & production of high thrust aero-engines related to cooperation. Safran Helicopter Engines is HAL's key partner in engines for HAL's helicopters like Chetak, Cheetal, LUH, LCH and ALH.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 06 Feb 2021 22:52

https://twitter.com/VamsiVamy/status/13 ... 48512?s=20 ---> Kaveri will be sent to Russia for flight trails. Watch it from 4:15.


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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby vinod » 07 Feb 2021 07:12

kit wrote:
chetak wrote:
no one will part with the "core" technology and certainly not RR, under any circumstances.

India entering the weapons export market has already set the cat among the pigeons. If India built aero engines are, at some time, going to be part of the export package, it will seriously hurt all of our current suppliers.


i presume unkle is going to come up with restrictions for Tejas exports

GE wants to sell engines, that's how they make money and they will have influence in US to allow India to sell planes in some cases. So, it will not be a blanket restriction but definitely there is scope for India to sell planes. Unless we make effort, how will we know what we are up against.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 07 Feb 2021 07:22

The KAI-T-50 is operated by Indonesia, Philippines, and Iraq. The Gripen has been exported and SAAB continues to compete with the Charlie and Echo variants in competitions around the globe. In fact the Gripen has competed and won over US offerings in some instances. Unless the Tejas is offered to Iran (which will also piss off the Israelis) or someone that is an adversary to the US, there will be no objection on account of the engine. These are commercial arrangements and these exist internationally and have and will continue to go through unless they are something that impact, directly, the US national security posture which is unlikely given the potential Tejas markets.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 07 Feb 2021 12:43

vinod wrote:
kit wrote:
i presume unkle is going to come up with restrictions for Tejas exports

GE wants to sell engines, that's how they make money and they will have influence in US to allow India to sell planes in some cases. So, it will not be a blanket restriction but definitely there is scope for India to sell planes. Unless we make effort, how will we know what we are up against.


the tejas uses a military specific engine. It is an item that is mandatorily subject to ITAR.

It needs specific clearance from the the U.S. Department of State. It cannot be decided by India alone. Moreover, our wonderful public sector production rates for the tejas are nothing to boast about.

The three primary sources of export control regulations are the U.S. Department of Commerce Export Administration Regulations (EAR), the U.S. Department of State International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), and the U.S. Department of the Treasury Office of Foreign Asset Control (OFAC).

EAR: How They Differ. It's easy to say that ITAR covers the export of all defense-related materials and items, and EAR covers everything else. Regulated Items: ITAR covers all defense articles and services, while EAR covers commercial and dual-use items and technologies.

This is a pointless discussion and speculation on how foggy bottom
will enforce ITAR with regards to India is futile. we just have to wait and see. It will take a very major diplomatic wrangling to make it happen and perhaps many years of "discussions".

even if you export tejas with a french/any "other" country engine, you will run into a similar set of major problems.

just be aware that re export of a US made mil engine from India is not without major challenges under ITAR, least of all which is an end user's certificate which India has to sign even for the tejas flying here and it may involve onsite inspections at the discretion of the seller.

Quoting examples of other countries does not help. their situations are very different. the KAI-T-50 is a joint korean US company's development project with LM as a JV partner there, whereas the tejas is not a JV with any non Indian company.

foggy bottom has never been particularly India friendly at any time and currently, India is merely the flavor of the month and a new owner has just taken over the business who may well have his own "family" take on all things chinese, in which case, all bets are off.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 08 Feb 2021 17:01

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1357655803734355968?s=20 ---> Potentially BIG NEWS!! HAL & Safran Aircraft Engines sign MoU for collaboration in the Development, Manufacture, Maintenance, Training & Upgrade of High-thrust Aero-Engines. The MoU's scope encompasses a wide spectrum including transfer of key manufacturing technologies & MRO of M-88 Rafale & other engines and the development & production of high thrust aero-engines related to cooperation. Safran Helicopter Engines is HAL's key partner in engines for HAL's helicopters like Chetak, Cheetal, LUH, LCH and ALH.

2/2
Transfer of significant amount of tech in assembling/manufacturing programmes is also contemplated. The MOU also encompasses collab btwn HAL & Safran for indigenisation progs relating to design/dev of high thrust engines of 110 kN power & above with transfer of key technology

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Feb 2021 18:15

SaiK wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1357655803734355968?s=20 ---> Potentially BIG NEWS!! HAL & Safran Aircraft Engines sign MoU for collaboration in the Development, Manufacture, Maintenance, Training & Upgrade of High-thrust Aero-Engines. The MoU's scope encompasses a wide spectrum including transfer of key manufacturing technologies & MRO of M-88 Rafale & other engines and the development & production of high thrust aero-engines related to cooperation. Safran Helicopter Engines is HAL's key partner in engines for HAL's helicopters like Chetak, Cheetal, LUH, LCH and ALH.

2/2
Transfer of significant amount of tech in assembling/manufacturing programmes is also contemplated. The MOU also encompasses collab btwn HAL & Safran for indigenisation progs relating to design/dev of high thrust engines of 110 kN power & above with transfer of key technology

IIRC initial versions of rafale also used GE 404 or 414.
Might be derisking the GE stranglehold on IAF in case of split.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 08 Feb 2021 18:42

ArjunPandit wrote:
SaiK wrote:2/2
Transfer of significant amount of tech in assembling/manufacturing programmes is also contemplated. The MOU also encompasses collab btwn HAL & Safran for indigenisation progs relating to design/dev of high thrust engines of 110 kN power & above with transfer of key technology

IIRC initial versions of rafale also used GE 404 or 414.
Might be derisking the GE stranglehold on IAF in case of split.



not the GE stranglehold, saar but the US stranglehold.


GE is a household pet and it will do exactly as told

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2021 07:15

Hindustan Aeronautics inks contracts with GE Aviation, R-R
https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 19.article
07 Feb 2021


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