Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Rakesh
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rolls-Royce ready to co-develop, manufacture fighter aircraft engines in India
https://theprint.in/defence/rolls-royce ... ia/734062/
16 Sept 2021
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Given the past record of nation's interest in collaboration with India. This news tells me that Kaveri is quite close to maturity and this offer is to divert our attention away from that.

I am still quite open to a JV. In fact I am open to 2 seperate JV with 2 seperate companies. One for engine for AMCA and mk2.

The other for a larger engine for Su 30 replacement effort that would be needed to be started by 2030.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Pratyush wrote:Given the past record of nation's interest in collaboration with India. This news tells me that Kaveri is quite close to maturity and this offer is to divert our attention away from that.

I am still quite open to a JV. In fact I am open to 2 seperate JV with 2 seperate companies. One for engine for AMCA and mk2.

The other for a larger engine for Su 30 replacement effort that would be needed to be started by 2030.

jv with a britshit company..........

the britshit govt forced the tatas to ring fence the tata owned JLR company's engg design dept and refused to allow cross pollination of technology to percolate to the Indian part of the tata automotive conglomerate thus actively preventing the improvement of the quality and safety of tata's Indian product offerings.

tata's money was good enough to protect and save britshit jobs but not good enough to upgrade some of tata's Indian products to higher standards of quality and safety for the good of Indian consumers

This was a very vindictive move and one that is only to be expected from the britshits

rather partner and start a jv with a black mamba, at least the mamba has clear cut motives and her intentions are honest as per her nature

JM2P onlee

anand mahindra has used tech from every one of his foreign company purchases to upgrade, improve and deliver better products to the Indian consumer, especially in his automotive products.

If at all, we need the britshit JV contracts to be reviewed by multiple numbers of industry professionals hired from outside and using a double blind method for some brutally honest tech appraisals and critiquing and not depend on one exam passed wunderkind babooze, whether in the ministry or DRDO or MOD.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

This should be explored - we have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. The Indian market is real. RR would be fools to ignore it.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

If the IPR of the end product will be with India. Then it's a good opportunity.

Should not be rejected just because of the commercial deal had certain components that were repugnant to people.

Not the company entering that deal.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Rakesh wrote:Rolls-Royce ready to co-develop, manufacture fighter aircraft engines in India
https://theprint.in/defence/rolls-royce ... ia/734062/
16 Sept 2021
IIRC, earlier RR had offered to co-develop an engine whose power will be up scalable by a minimum of 20%, both countries would own the IPR, Cost of development (India's contribution) would be $8 Billion and it was not clear if the co ownership of IPR would mean unlimited number of engines could be produced by india for its own needs or if it could also export it to other countries.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

India cannot pretend to play nice forever. The need is to beg, borrow, steal the missing tech. Take apart used engines and learn what is possible. Use all means. Recruit Indian scientists that are working with manufacturers! But doing nothing is not an option.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

Wonder up to what extent India can produce titanium deposits. Whether it can locally produced as a raw material from existing natural resources.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by williams »

viveks wrote:Wonder up to what extent India can produce titanium deposits. Whether it can locally produced as a raw material from existing natural resources.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/titanium-sponge ... technology

^^^We do. We are using them in our missile systems and space launch vehicles.

But as usual we are not fully exploiting our reserves and we are importing from China.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Ma ... 524098.ece

But we are making progress...
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 705_1.html
Another DRDO laboratory – the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) which oversees the Tejas fighter programme – has already identified over 15 steel components which may be replaced by the new titanium alloy forgings, with weight savings up to 40 per cent.
“The landing gear drop link is the first component forged successfully by ADA at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Bengaluru, with DMRL’s involvement and duly certified for airworthiness,” said the DRDO.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... 45294?s=20 --->

While you wonder what GTRE has been up to, here are a few updates on them as well:

1,2 - New STFE engine for RSPA specific requirements

3 - High-Speed Epicyclic Gearbox

4 - Fan with High Inlet Pressure Distortion Tolerance

Image

Image

Image

Image
Rakesh
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Kaveri is heading to Russia for flight tests in January 2022.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

Pratyush wrote:Kaveri is heading to Russia for flight tests in January 2022.
Which version of Kaveri? There is...K9, K10, dry one.

We had last test many years ago. Just curious, what's new.?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Pratyush wrote:Kaveri is heading to Russia for flight tests in January 2022.
I remember then GTRE director bemoaning during the Aero India Seminar in 2009 about how just a 100-200 crore fund infusion could allow us to create such a testing setup in India, but they hadn't been able to get GOI to fund it. I believe i mentioned that in my old reports
on BRF
, if gurus want to take a look.

Looks like things haven't really changed in that domain in the past 12 years at least on that count.

But, judging by the types of technologies being developed, it seems like they have changed tack and are looking to develop and prove new technologies on smaller engines (manik, etc) or in other demonstrators. Bodes well as far as derisking is concerned.

P.S. on an OT note, the GTRE director i mentioned above was later caught in a sting at a brothel and shunted out ignominiously (as well as having wealth disproportionate) so take that as you will.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Anyway good that it is being sent for testing. Most likely the bugs are fixed or doesn't make sense to test it!

Good luck!!!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by V_Raman »

Cant we buy a test rig for India from Russia? Will they sell it? or is it not worth the investment at this point?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Depends on whether the project is meant to be a tech demonstrator/proof of concept or intended for a production run. Perhaps the idea is to invest in local testing once a proof of concept implementation is achieved.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

There was a push for AMCA to use Kaveri, and for Ghatak UCAV to use Kaveri without afterburner.

I hope that Kaveri at least reaches a level where it can be used for Ghatak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Wow. Again going to Russia. Hospitality must be really good :wink: .
I have lost hope in govt organisations to see common sense to build a local one with second hand aircrafts.
Cant imagine AMCA engine if built with RR or GE collaboration being taken to Russia for tests.
I hope some private sector aerospace startups comes up with a flying test bed.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Alpha Defense says its Kaveri for Ghatak.

Frankly, if we can master the engines for Ghatak, Manik etc, that's a great start towards the eventual capability of having Kaveri powering our fighter jets.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

There is an interview by DRDO chief - http://www.businessworld.in/article/DRD ... 21-412706/
Through this indigenous DRDO project on military gas turbines, sufficient Technology Readiness Level (TRL) in the field of aero engines for fighter aircraft has been attained in the country.
Well then there should be massive funding the integration and a large order book. Pity they don't even realize the necessity of an FTB.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Prem Kumar wrote:Alpha Defense says its Kaveri for Ghatak.

Frankly, if we can master the engines for Ghatak, Manik etc, that's a great start towards the eventual capability of having Kaveri powering our fighter jets.
engines like those for Ghatak, Manik, etc are half way stops on the long journey

the ultimate objective is to have a reliable engine cleared for operation in a single engined jet fighter.

This is done by enhancing the reliability of the engine and also significantly reducing the possibility of engine failure in flight.

Thus, the requirements are even more stringent than the engines used in a twin engined fighter because there is no redundancy available.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Kailash wrote:There is an interview by DRDO chief - http://www.businessworld.in/article/DRD ... 21-412706/
Through this indigenous DRDO project on military gas turbines, sufficient Technology Readiness Level (TRL) in the field of aero engines for fighter aircraft has been attained in the country.
Well then there should be massive funding the integration and a large order book. Pity they don't even realize the necessity of an FTB.
how many days in a year will the FTB be used and the requirements to test will exist for how many years after that. At best, such requirements will be sporadic and event based, depending on the completion of a specific stage of the development cycle

How many projects are in the pipeline and when will they reach the FTB stage

There are far wiser people who would already have evaluated the requirements and come to the conclusion that it is better to hire the FTB, as and when required, rather than own one outright since the cost of ownership is exorbitant. Maintenance and system upkeep doesn't come cheap
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I dont agree, FTB in India will give faster results and will tell the persons working what works and what doesnt help them in finalising changes and ending with right products, Going to Russia is just delaying the test results and increasing the development cycle and hoping the Russians are honest with the Test results.

It is a pennywise pound foolish decision. Having a IL76 based test bed in India will the results much faster so that the next iterations can be done much faster.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

Now that we are developing multiple engines, and they will have multiple variants, it makes more sense to have our own FTB.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

The problem is the test data is available to Russia and there is no need for them to be in the know.
Operating a FTB like IL 76 or B747 is an essential skill for strategic reasons just like operating a aircraft carrier or nuclear submarine is. It can be re-purposed for other research programs like hypersonics and LEO launches when not used for Kaveri testing.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

chetak/karan m ji,
your points are quite valid. Some noob pooch from my side
1. doesnt your answer assume that approval for trips to russia are easy and quick to get by.
2. wouldnt having own FTB, facilitate faster turn around cycle.
3. Also, if cost is an issue why dont we lease FTBs like we do with nuke submarines for those parts of year. I am sure russians would be happy to charge an arm leg and eye for that but woudl be worht the cost
We need to look towards engines for all sizes including those for bigger birds too..for everything FTV would be helpful. Would be worth the cost, at least from a strategic perspective.

Again, I know little in this area so looking to learn from your wisdom
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

If the GTRE had a new engine ready to be tested on an annual basis. Then a FTB might be necessary. But flying an engine every few decades doesn't require a FTB.

But the statement from the GTRE boss and the offers from RR and Safaran. Show that we are reaching such a stage in the near future.

We need a national engine development program for the following applications.

1) for MWF and AMCA.
2) for the future air dominance fighters ( SU 30 replacement)
3) for a large military air lifters( jet powered)
4) medium sized military air lifters ( turbo prop)
5) jet engine for full spectrum of civil airliner.
6) UAV applications.

Once, this is accepted then FTB is a necessity. Until then it's a luxury.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Pratyush wrote:If the GTRE had a new engine ready to be tested on an annual basis. Then a FTB might be necessary. But flying an engine every few decades doesn't require a FTB.

But the statement from the GTRE boss and the offers from RR and Safaran. Show that we are reaching such a stage in the near future.

We need a national engine development program for the following applications.

1) for MWF and AMCA.
2) for the future air dominance fighters ( SU 30 replacement)
3) for a large military air lifters( jet powered)
4) medium sized military air lifters ( turbo prop)
5) jet engine for full spectrum of civil airliner.
6) UAV applications.

Once, this is accepted then FTB is a necessity. Until then it's a luxury.
This is a strategic need, not one that we should be doing a cost-benefit analysis for. Not to mention, the cost isn't THAT high either. And can provide a significant boost for propulsion and combustion research in the country.

Even in '09, the GTRE folks bemoaned the hoops they had go through to get the Kaveri tested on the FTB and at CIAM. Not only did they have to wait in a queue for testing time, put behind other local testing needs, and that was after going through multiple approval processes that took over a year. The director mentioned that it took them 3 years of chasing the blade throw issues which became immediately apparent when the first tests were run at CIAM. Three years, because it would've been too expensive to send it all the way to Russia to test without trying everything else first.

Imagine where the Kaveri program could've been if they didn't have the 3 years delay. Imagine where we could've been if we had the testing centers that we deserve to have in order to create an engine program befitting our status as a major world power.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

The entire FTB setup will not cost a single rupee from Tax payers money.
Everything can be set up by simply selling off part of Air India's prime real state in Delhi or Mumbai to raise couple of crores for instrumentation and transfer a single B747 to DRDO to be used as FTB.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

AI is no longer government property saar. But who knows, maybe TASL might just do this with their new assets. :-)
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Atleast one 747 or maybe all 4 is not part of the sale to Tata group and are still govt property. They are part of Alliance Air and are on vvip duty or other emergency chores. Real estate assets are in another asset holding company.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 67941.html
It is unclear if Air India’s four B747s will be transferred to Alliance Air or scrapped. The bid document for Air India stated that the B747s would be transferred to Alliance Air.
But the point being FTB are not so expensive and have significant strategic value.
Covid 19 has only accelerated the retirement of more 747 and many would be available at significant discounted rates.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

k prasad wrote:AI is no longer government property saar. But who knows, maybe TASL might just do this with their new assets. :-)
Most of the real estate and other assets were removed from the Air India before it was sold IIRC.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

The way I see it, we have "A" engine which makes FTB acquisition and maintenance costly. An economy the size of India should have a complete roadmap for a family of aero engines - for UAVs, to choppers, to commercial and military transport, marine gas turbines and land based applications like trains, hovercrafts etc. This is not ambitious or negotiable. With multiple such programs and FTB wont look costly or underutilized.

There are multiple approaches to design - case in point Russian versus western engines. Reliable low tech engines with multiple replacements over the life time of the aircraft is relatively low hanging fruit. Aircrafts can always be designed around what we have, than what money can buy. There will come a time when money cant buy what we need. Polity and Military have to develop their tolerance towards failure, acceptance and a long term vision.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Barath »

arvin wrote:The entire FTB setup will not cost a single rupee from Tax payers money.
Everything can be set up by simply selling off part of Air India's prime real state in Delhi or Mumbai to raise couple of crores for instrumentation and transfer a single B747 to DRDO to be used as FTB.
After the deal, the government will take on Rs 46,262 crore worth of debt and Rs 14,718 worth of assets which includes real estate. All of it will be transferred to a special purpose vehicle called Air India Asset Holdings Ltd

Most of the real estate stayed with the government along with most, of the debt. All the assets were to be sold off eventually to pay portion of the debt. Money is fungible. So there is no free lunch here. It is all taxpayer money and is the result of mismanagement of Air India by GoI for years.

For the rest, I'm with Kailash. Either engines are strategic and one needs to invest in them continuously to become excellent. Or they are not, and one could just dismantle everything. Obviously I lean towards the strategic. But yes, engine infrastructure and development isn't cheap. But then neither is engine procurement, import or manufacture. A national mission is must.
Last edited by Barath on 29 Nov 2021 18:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I think that ultimately this is a chicken and egg situation.

The strategic rational has to exist for creating a national mission. The vision is lacking.

If a strategic rational is not existing. Then in that circumstance, a commercial imperative has to exist. As indian player being a supplier of engine's for commercial airliners. Both domestic and foreign.

But that doesn't exist.

So we are stuck in Trishanku Swarg.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

^^^
This is a different chicken and egg problem. We are giving eggs to others and buying chicken as we can't wait to hatch them.
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Post by Pratyush »

Took me some time to understand what you were saying.

You nailed it.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Barath wrote:
arvin wrote:The entire FTB setup will not cost a single rupee from Tax payers money.
Everything can be set up by simply selling off part of Air India's prime real state in Delhi or Mumbai to raise couple of crores for instrumentation and transfer a single B747 to DRDO to be used as FTB.
After the deal, the government will take on Rs 46,262 crore worth of debt and Rs 14,718 worth of assets which includes real estate. All of it will be transferred to a special purpose vehicle called Air India Asset Holdings Ltd

Most of the real estate stayed with the government along with most, of the debt. All the assets were to be sold off eventually to pay portion of the debt. Money is fungible. So there is no free lunch here. It is all taxpayer money and is the result of mismanagement of Air India by GoI for years.
.
Your points are valid. Assets can be used to pay off part of debt.
But a precedent has already been set by way of transfer of 6 A320 from Air India fleet to DRDO. These were also assets.
Value of these for National security far out weighed the gains from resale value had they been part of the sale.
Raising a few hundred crores from real estate sale and transfer of a single B747, both assets owned by Air India Asset Holdings Ltd would IMO be the easiest way to raise funding for a FTB.
Rather than take a circuitous route of asking Defence or Finance ministry for additional funds.
Bean counters there would likely ask for justification since Russia is already there to take us for a ride on an IL 76.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Misha »

Only if we can have a IL 78 FTB which can act as refuelling tanker in normal days..... I mean if we can have a IL 78 refueller which if outfitted to be converted to FTB in few days :idea:
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