Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Kailash
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kailash » 15 Feb 2009 18:29

If lesser power is Kaveri's only problem (assuming that the breaking of blades etc are fixed), then after running some endurance tests, cant we market Kaveri to engine upgrade programs around the world?

Kaveri should be able to beat the cost and power rating of GE-404 anytime.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2009 19:06

Kailash wrote:If lesser power is Kaveri's only problem (assuming that the breaking of blades etc are fixed), then after running some endurance tests, cant we market Kaveri to engine upgrade programs around the world?

Kaveri should be able to beat the cost and power rating of GE-404 anytime.


The idea is good but Aero Engines live on reputation.

Nobody wants an engine that is not tested and proven.

For example - engines like the civilian CFM 56 are regularly recoded as running (collectively) for periods in excess of 10 million hours of flight without a single failure.

That record is not easy to reach. If and when Inda gets there - India will be a leading jet engine manufacturer in the world. That is like running an engine 24x7 for 3 years in a row.

The Kaveri of course is a military engine (currently) and is probably put under greater strain - but the fact that it can withstand that strain and that an Indian company can ensure good back-up should become well known. The last thing you want is an engine failure in a plane. Naturally people tend to favor that which is proven.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 15 Feb 2009 21:41

Does the last page of this GTRE brouchure shows a 3D-TVC?


GTRE


compare with

EJ2000

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kailash » 15 Feb 2009 22:12

Tell me that is not "Cas Turbine Research Establishment".. :)

The last page is the after burner assembly.
Last edited by Kailash on 15 Feb 2009 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 15 Feb 2009 22:14

^^^
that typo tells a story of its own, IMO.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby rakall » 16 Feb 2009 16:35

K.Prasad has captured all the info & technical details regarding Kaveri + GTRE.

On my visit to GTRE stall - i got a revision of all the problems (how they solved one blade-off condition, the third orders from combusstion chamber & how they solved it etc etc)... Right now they are waiting for High alt tests at CIAM & FTB.
After that they will look to fit it in an LCA for flight envelop trials..

- Basically we got zero tech from the much touted deep-TOT of AL31FP. Zero knowledge.
- The Snecma ECO JV will bring us powder metallurgy & blisk technology that we basically lack to take Kaveri to next level.
(it has been made clear to Snecma that ToT is mandatory)
- KMGT has been proved to 12MW.. Navy asked for 15MW.. The core was an older core (Kaveri-1 as they call it) and GTRE is very much comfortable and confident they can deliver 15MW with the latest core (Kaveri-4 as they call it).
- Railways asked for a 8MW version for "traction".. I triple-checked if it was for power generation or traction.. It IS for traction. Run on CNG.

- GTRE has a preliminary design for a small gas-turbine which is similar to the one that India recently ordered (persuambly) for Lakshya.. But the engine that has been asked from Lakshya is for Nirbhay. GTRE is targetting for an sfc of 1kg/kgf/hr. But they will be happy to get 1.02-1.05.

Now the design is right now "just a paper desing".. if they put a proposal and get funding -- they will develop it. No promises there.. But it is encouraging that they are thinking in right direction.

Actually after reading K.Prasad's piece I went to GTRE stall with positive vibes... GTRE people have huge inferiority complex -- expected, due to all the negative press they have been getting.. So the person was very happy with the "positive interest" I had shown.. which they have come not to expect..

I told him "there a a lot of people who still support you and understand the value of your efforts"..
He was extremely thrilled and replied "actually the hair on my hands is standing listening to your words.. I am happy".. "Even my daughter asks me everyday - daddy you have been there for somany years and your engine is still not flying"..

PS: As we were discussing the small engine - i gathered some details on Nirbhay.. He says the engine is not podded outside at all - the engine will be within the fuselage.. Also he says there may be a small air scoop & "dimpled scoops" on the body.. I dont know how true it could be..

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby k prasad » 16 Feb 2009 17:04

x-posting from AI thread

k prasad wrote:Thanks a ton for the GTRE post Rakall.... it has confirmed a lot of what i posted from the Director's talk, including the Blisk and Single Crystal tech ToT.

I was also there around the same time you were interrogating Balaji, but was interrogating a GTRE guy for more info (without revealing that I'd put up that post on their director's presentation - i feared for my life after what Kersiji told me :D )... thankfully, the cutaway model and actual K7 engine were there so it was a real insightful 15 minutes.

Apparently, the problem of the 3rd order engine vibrations causing blade deformation was occuring with the first combustor blade... the scientist did not mention how they have solved the issue, but has said that they have sent the latest engine to CIAM, and will get results within a month or so.... in fact, he said that the rest of the engine is working better than designed for.

The FADEC is right now independent of the FCS, but they are definitely looking at integrating it with the FCS - not only will that make the engine perform more efficiently, but will provide best performance in combat. However, they are still trying to figure out how it will work - we still lack the technological knowhow.

The person i spoke to was quite demoralized that their achievements were not known... he was almost apologetic about the engine, so I did pep him up by saying that it was no mean feat that they'd achieved, and that they had absolutely nothign to be ashamed about... guess he felt a little better after that.

The Afterburner may also be redesigned a bit to get better reheat performance- they are trying to see how they can change the bypass flow inputs to get best performance; but these will be small efforts.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 16 Feb 2009 22:28

I guess we all need to be more supportive of GTRE's efforts.But GTRE needs to report back on their achievments and failures. For example if the latest tests at CIAM are successful, they should let it be known.

Development of GTs for IN and Railways is good. They should try to get a Kaveri flying. GTRE should ask for a Mig-29 or a MKI as a testbed for the Kaveri. GTRE needs to keep working and trying to solve their technical difficulties.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Feb 2009 22:31

an update from a knowledgeable person. :)

we do have single crystal tech & blisk tech but development to full production will take time & that is the key issue


Similarly, the entire Kaveri with M88 thing is the same case. There is now experience & certain confidence to reapproach the problem - despite the severe flak GTRE has taken, to manage a new engine. But the time is simply not there. The DRDO plans for future programs & the IAF's desire/need for quick program timelines means only a JV will suffice. Fact is that the resource - manpower & finance, for "quick" engine development is simply not there.


others who have received this (and you know who you are), please exercise necessary caution if you want to add to the above.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Arun_S » 16 Feb 2009 23:01

rakall wrote: - GTRE has a preliminary design for a small gas-turbine which is similar to the one that India recently ordered (persuambly) for Lakshya.. But the engine that has been asked from Lakshya is for Nirbhay. GTRE is targetting for an sfc of 1kg/kgf/hr. But they will be happy to get 1.02-1.05.

Now the design is right now "just a paper desing".. if they put a proposal and get funding -- they will develop it. No promises there.. But it is encouraging that they are thinking in right direction.

Very good. There are quite a few NAL papers on this design, but hearing SFC of 1.1 gladdens my heart.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kobe » 17 Feb 2009 00:09

required reading for the chair marshalls

1) history and importance of single crystal blades

2) structures of single crystal

3) coatings for turbine blades

4) Rhenium in SC blades

...The nickel-based superalloys have improved creep strength with the addition of rhenium. The alloys normally contain 3% or 6% of rhenium.[24] The second generation alloys contain 3%, these alloys were used in the engine of the F-16 and F-15, while the new single crystal third generation alloys contain 6% of rhenium, they are used in the F-22 and F-35 engines.[23][25] For 2006 the consumption is given as 28% for General Electric, 28% Rolls-Royce plc and 12% Pratt & Whitney, all for superalloys, while the use for catalysts only accounts for 14% and the remaining applications use 18%.[22] In 2006, 77% of the rhenium consumption in the United States was due to the use in alloys....

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby skher » 17 Feb 2009 03:37

Arun_S wrote:
rakall wrote: - GTRE has a preliminary design for a small gas-turbine which is similar to the one that India recently ordered (persuambly) for Lakshya.. But the engine that has been asked from Lakshya is for Nirbhay. GTRE is targetting for an sfc of 1kg/kgf/hr. But they will be happy to get 1.02-1.05.


Is it not possible to use the currently developed Kaveri engine in full for Lakshya and Nirbhay-building a variant based on the engine(with minimal modifications) and not the other way round?

Surely even if Kaveri/Kabini is not used for LCA,it can re-applied for UAVs,missiles and might be a business jet version of Saras?


Regards,
Leading Chaircraftsman

PS:Are we facing a shortage of Rhenium?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby PratikDas » 17 Feb 2009 04:13

skher wrote:PS:Are we facing a shortage of Rhenium?


Why, do you have some stashed under your bed? :D

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby John Snow » 17 Feb 2009 12:28

Guys and gurus
why cant we bypass SC Blades by using carbob carbon fiber blades, If I am not wrong carbon carbon will stand the turbine temps no around 2000 K?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 17 Feb 2009 12:35

Have you forgotten the Columbia disaster, where a piece of falling foam shattered the carbon carbon leading edge ?.

Moral of the story, the turbine blades take a huge amount of stress and shock loadings and have to be mechanically very robust and hold up those properties at just below melting point where those blades operate, and retain those properties for a lot of cycles.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: . No sir carbon carbon or any other ceramic material which can stand the temperature, but not have the mechanical properties, wont do!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby k prasad » 17 Feb 2009 15:05

Vivek K wrote:I guess we all need to be more supportive of GTRE's efforts.But GTRE needs to report back on their achievments and failures. For example if the latest tests at CIAM are successful, they should let it be known.

Development of GTs for IN and Railways is good. They should try to get a Kaveri flying. GTRE should ask for a Mig-29 or a MKI as a testbed for the Kaveri. GTRE needs to keep working and trying to solve their technical difficulties.


Absolutely.... in fact, the one thing I'd fault GTRE on is their lack of openness. This was also something that Gen Sundaram (The Prithvi person) strongly pointed out (generally, not relating to Kaveri specifically). It is only very recently that they seem to have begun to open up. However, even that hasn't been full scale... It'll be complete only when I see the DDMs posting a report on Kaveri that actually quotes named sources.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby neerajb » 20 Feb 2009 10:59

vina wrote:No sir carbon carbon or any other ceramic material which can stand the temperature, but not have the mechanical properties, wont do!


http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscent ... 80714.html

As the world's only jet engine with both a front fan case and fan blades made of carbon fiber composites, the GEnx will also have greater durability, better performance retention as well as lower operating costs than comparable engines in its class.


I guess heat is the problem and not the mechanical strength.

Cheers....

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Arun_S » 21 Feb 2009 22:23

skher wrote:Is it not possible to use the currently developed Kaveri engine in full for Lakshya and Nirbhay-building a variant based on the engine(with minimal modifications) and not the other way round?

Surely even if Kaveri/Kabini is not used for LCA,it can re-applied for UAVs,missiles and might be a business jet version of Saras?


Try putting your mercedez engine on the model plane for your grown up son.
Bottomline:
    1)size &power mismatch
    2) using gold plated toilet seat when plastic will do just fine

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby aditp » 21 Feb 2009 23:20

Arun_S wrote:
skher wrote:Is it not possible to use the currently developed Kaveri engine in full for Lakshya and Nirbhay-building a variant based on the engine(with minimal modifications) and not the other way round?

Surely even if Kaveri/Kabini is not used for LCA,it can re-applied for UAVs,missiles and might be a business jet version of Saras?


Try putting your mercedez engine on the model plane for your grown up son.
Bottomline:
    1)size &power mismatch
    2) using gold plated toilet seat when plastic will do just fine


Arun, wont it be possible o use the Kaveri for re-engining the Jags, may be with a little derating of power to suit the airframe? (err...I actually dont know the engine dimensions to decide if the engine would fit or not.)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vick » 21 Feb 2009 23:20

skher wrote:Is it not possible to use the currently developed Kaveri engine in full for Lakshya and Nirbhay-building a variant based on the engine(with minimal modifications) and not the other way round?

Surely even if Kaveri/Kabini is not used for LCA,it can re-applied for UAVs,missiles and might be a business jet version of Saras?

There might be a possibility of using the Kabini as a basis to build a smaller high-efficiency turbofan for HALE type UAVs and small aircraft purposes. Similar to the way Saturn used the AL-31 core as the basis for the AL-55I that's going to power the IJT.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 22 Feb 2009 00:15

I think apart from failure of Kaveri, another disappointing thing is that there is no major movement to built all the essential labs for future tubine engines in India. This will speed up work in India and also obviate the need to send engines to places like Germany & Russia.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2009 00:22

a good post on what ejatly is the infra at gromov and how much it costs to build or buy such infra would be most useful.
there will be a need for a modified jet a/c with a fuselage or wing pod to hold
test engines and take up. Rus uses a Tu16 for that, the other nations must be having similar.

we dont lack in wind tunnels. can always build more. pressure chambers for ground testing shouldnt be a big problem.

this is a problem looking for a permanent fix.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby negi » 22 Feb 2009 00:57

Raj Malhotra wrote:Does the last page of this GTRE brouchure shows a 3D-TVC?


GTRE

No it does not , infact its a typical nozzle design without the overlapping petal/feathers as found on F-15 eagle. 3D TVC nozzles will have to be considerably longer due obvious need for incorporating a more complex mechanism.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby abhijitm » 22 Feb 2009 02:29

Rahul M wrote:an update from a knowledgeable person. :)

we do have single crystal tech & blisk tech but development to full production will take time & that is the key issue


others who have received this (and you know who you are), please exercise necessary caution if you want to add to the above.


I was hoping for a cracker after this news, but on the contrary this thread resembles the silence of Elsinore castle.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 22 Feb 2009 07:03

further news will only come when we have well and truly mastered the productionisation.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 22 Feb 2009 10:21

abhijitm wrote:
we do have single crystal tech & blisk tech but development to full production will take time & that is the key issue

Rahul M wrote:an update from a knowledgeable person. :)
others who have received this (and you know who you are), please exercise necessary caution if you want to add to the above.


I was hoping for a cracker after this news, but on the contrary this thread resembles the silence of Elsinore castle.


Ok your wish is granted :) . Here is my firt shot. A decade before we were working on producing single crystalline Gallium Arsenide - hope everyone knows the importance of it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Arun_S » 22 Feb 2009 11:40

aditp wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Try putting your mercedez engine on the model plane for your grown up son.
Bottomline:
    1)size &power mismatch
    2) using gold plated toilet seat when plastic will do just fine


Arun, wont it be possible o use the Kaveri for re-engining the Jags, may be with a little derating of power to suit the airframe? (err...I actually dont know the engine dimensions to decide if the engine would fit or not.)

Possible but not worthwhile in the overall scheme of things.
One can take a horse to the waterhole but can force him to drink. More so if the horse is not thirsty.
And I ain't seen IAF thirsty enough to jump to the idea in spite of its indigenous and sweet Kaveri water. :twisted:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kanson » 22 Feb 2009 19:44

neerajb wrote: http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscent ... 80714.html

As the world's only jet engine with both a front fan case and fan blades made of carbon fiber composites, the GEnx will also have greater durability, better performance retention as well as lower operating costs than comparable engines in its class.


I guess heat is the problem and not the mechanical strength.

Cheers....

Carbon fibre exhibits high tensile strength. GEnx is also referred as GenX, Next generation engine. If it is one thing can be named than helped Boeing to regain its market, it is this engine. It is part of GEs ecomagination drive.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby abhishek » 09 Mar 2009 03:20


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kobe » 09 Mar 2009 04:56



can't wait for this to happen. finally an lca with our own engine! be it under-powered or over-weight. once installed, flown, tested, indians are good at improving the stuff. indian manufacturing quality is world-class high tech area. and definitely better than the russians and the chinese.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vivek K » 09 Mar 2009 09:19

This is great news. The only thing that worries me is that the Engine still needs to go to Russia. I would have felt better if this had been reported after the completion successfully of tests in Russia.
Regardless, this is a step forward. I wish them luck.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Mar 2009 10:10

this needs to be posted in full .. it has all of the stuffs what we normally discuss here., precisely the management and process engineering aspects.

Deccan Herald » National » Detailed Story
Kaveri project delayed due to lack of proper planning
Indigenous LCA engine ready for maiden trial
DH News Service, New Delhi:
After two decades of copious criticism from every quarter, the indigenous Kaveri engine is ready for its maiden flight trial in 2010.


“We have completed all ground testing for the full engine and individual components. The first flight (in a light combat aircraft) is expected in early 2010,” T Mohana Rao, director of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, which is developing the engine, told Deccan Herald.

Way back in 1986, the Defence Ministry wanted to develop an indigenous gas turbine engine for the indigenous fighter, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which just got off from the drawing board.

The decision led to the Kaveri programme, which was sanctioned in 1989 with an initial funding support of Rs 382.81 crore.

Clueless scientists

But over the years, Kaveri exemplified everything that is wrong with Indian defence research.

There was serious time and cost overrun and the programme was unable to meet many of its stated objectives. Many government and Parliamentary committees blamed the GTRE and the DRDO for India’s failure to have an indigenous engine for the fighter planes in time despite promises.

On the eve of the flight trial, Rao said when they were assigned the critical task they had no clue about the difficulties and were literally groping in the dark.

“We were thoroughly mistaken about the time. No one guided us. We were in dark along with our countrymen,” the GTRE chief admitted.

Rao confessed that there were flaws in the planning process when the project was conceived.

“We were over-optimistic that in six to eight years time, we will be able to make a gas turbine engine from scratch. But it was a myth,” he said.

Almost for the first seventeen years, GTRE scientists had to work in isolation as there was hardly any outside consultation with other engine manufacturers. “We just had some hunch. Consultation started since the last three years,”
he said.

There was no test facility in India because of which the engine had to be sent abroad every time for test, further increasing the development time. The centre has so far sanctioned Rs 2080 crore for Kaveri. This, according to Rao, is one-fifth of what other nations have spent on developing similar gas turbine engines.

When the Kaveri programme was sanctioned in 1989, technical specifications were drawn out on the basis of a theoretical concept of the LCA. With the evolution of the LCA design, changes in the engine specifications were necessitated. Till date, GTRE made eight full engines and four core engines which do not have the low-pressure components and some other machinery.

Three cores and one full engine underwent testing in simulated conditions. In the next couple of months, full altitude testing in simulated conditions would be carried out to ensure that the engine can fire between 0-8 km altitudes.

This will be followed by the flight trial in another few months.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 09 Mar 2009 15:55

>>>we dont lack in wind tunnels. can always build more. pressure chambers for ground testing shouldnt be a big problem.

Subsonic wind tunnels, yes. Super sonic tunnels are okay, but hypersonic tunnels for any worthwhile experiments are almost not there. ASL Hyderabad floated a tender only in the last one year or so for a Hypersonic tunnel for an estimated cost of 100 crores. they are seeking assistance either from Israel or France for this.

There are many more equipment needed by the labs for advanced research. I don't know what is the problem in building up the infrastructure.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Omar » 09 Mar 2009 17:07

After the Kaveri programme is completed, GTRE needs to be tasked w/developing a family of jet engines for different classes of military aircraft such as helicopters, transport aircraft, fighter aircraft, etc. Thus when air force, army, or navy come up w/new aircraft development programmes designers can build an airframe around a reliable engine. Otherwise there is no impetus for having these advanced test facilities within India.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Mar 2009 19:20

it will be a real milestone if Kaveri can be fitted on a Tejas and demonstrate reliable ops
at say 90% of the desired thrust for months and months. at this stage, reliability and quality is more important than raw size or thrust. sure there will be non-linear challenges
as the engine scales up but overall, getting a solid base design in place is more important.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kartik » 09 Mar 2009 22:54

Singha wrote:it will be a real milestone if Kaveri can be fitted on a Tejas and demonstrate reliable ops
at say 90% of the desired thrust for months and months. at this stage, reliability and quality is more important than raw size or thrust. sure there will be non-linear challenges
as the engine scales up but overall, getting a solid base design in place is more important.


I agree. IMO, reliability will be the key factor, especially considering that the platform, the LCA, is also under such threat from enemies of indigenisation.

if they're able to demostrate that the Kaveri without being uprated or having its bypass ratio upped by having its diameter reduced, or its core changed, is reliable, then that itself will be a phillip to GTRE and could pave the way for its new Kaveri-M88 avatar to be used on other future platforms like the MCA. and confidence is such a big factor that it could make or break the future of the Indian aviation engine sector..

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Mar 2009 23:31

It is not limited to just LCA, MCA. for that matter Rafale has promised to integrate Kaveri into Rafale as well for MMRCA. The Mig-35 would just follow the french if they are chosen, as it is all up to us what we want to power up with.

Its a great news, but we need to sustain this further, and establish the Kaveri base-line into LCA. The #1 milestone crossing for Kaveri is to get its rightful place into LCA, and get it rated and certified.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby m mittal » 11 Mar 2009 11:04

It was surprising to see that there wasn't enough response from the Gurus to this news of Kaveri's maiden flight......

I wonder why???? :?:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby k prasad » 11 Mar 2009 11:18

m mittal wrote:It was surprising to see that there wasn't enough response from the Gurus to this news of Kaveri's maiden flight......

I wonder why???? :?:


Would it perhaps be because we had reported this in the Aero India thread last month itself??? :D :D

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby k prasad » 11 Mar 2009 19:13

pandyan wrote:the press report definitely looks like a subset of kprasad's excellent report on kaveri.


Lol pandyan - I did nothing... just what the press would have done if they were in the talk. The problem is that DDMs dont know jack about this stuff, so they need to be spoonfed info.

More impressive is Rakall's reports from AI - seriously good stuff, very technical too (something I can't do for nuts). Shiv, Kersi and others have also got a motherload of info....


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