Kailash wrote:k prasad wrote:
Kailash, Perhaps you'd care to explain that in the engine thread??
What made you think that GTRE and ADA do not have roadmaps? .......
Please tell me what exactly is the fault of GTRE and ADA and DRDO in this? Perhaps the blame needs to be laid at the right door.
Well I meant exactly what you imply here. Due to all the above reasons, a road map can not exist. What is a road map which does not have govt funding and support? Past successes are crucial for a viable roadmap to work. Timely and successful delivery. But no one person is to blame here - time delays by research bodies (due to technical or finacial reasons), leads to less support from customers, leads to lesser money allocated for further research by govt. Each party is having lower confidence than the other....leading to a downward spiral.
I would be happy to be proven wrong. How many variants and offshoots of Kaveri/Kabini are planned for next 10-15 years? Any clear plans for improved thrust ratings, engines for UAVs, definite research to develop a dual mode ram/scram jet engines?
***Not sure how to move this to the engines thread, can someone help?
hmm... looks like both of us are blaming the same people - GoI and the Babus. As you rightly point out, a clear roadmap can only be built on a foundation of previous work... for that, we need to build a foundation, no matter how long it takes.
Technology Gap:
To pin some blame where it is deserved, GTRE was far too overoptimistic in its timeline... however, the fact was, and was expanded by the GTRE director when I spoke to him, that we had absolutely no idea what we were getting into - Kaveri was the first engine development of ANY type (if you don't count license production that is). They had no help, no one was willing to collaborate, even in terms of giving detailed advise (the ones who offered offered their own engines instead), and needed to build up expertise...
Timeline
GTRE needed to first figure out the skills needed, then the infrastructure needed for that (a huge problem in the face of technology denial). Then the manpower, and the technology set up for R&D... only after which could we even look at starting the engine development. This would take at least 5-6 years, if not more. We are still mastering alloys and all. That should give an idea of the scale of the challenge.
This is a timeline taht everyone ignores - Kaveri was given sanction only in 1987-88, that too after the foreign engine for LCA fell through. Full sanction for LCA started only in 1993. Same for Kaveri. How can anyone then say that the program has been 25 years - it doesn't compute - all foreign programs start from FSED phase commencement - if we take the LCA on that, it is 1993. Kaveri is a bit later than that.
As Mohan Rao said, it was a huge shock for GTRE to be given such a massive task, and they were completely out of their league. They themselves were uncertain about their capabilities.
And to be fair to the Kaveri designers, their timeline, even to date, is better than other engine manufacturers - if they'd followed the Snecma M88 timeline, the Kaveri would be due for testbed tests in 2009 only - this is exactly what is happening. So we are actually quite competitive wrt other engines. For a first time, that is indeed impressive.
User Confidence:
Unfortunately, the problem with IA and IAF (and to a far lesser extent, the Navy) has been that they simply dont understand, or care to understand the challenges involved in R&D - they want things according to their whims, and on a yesterday basis. That is something that doesn't work. Moreover, they are highly reluctant to share the risk or cost of such a venture - this is just pure hypocrisy. The fact is that they didn't understand the challenges being faced.
Thankfully, this is an attitude that has changed. In fact, attitudes on both User and developer side has changed - on GTRE side, there is a new honesty and sense of urgency. They are also more ready to admit shortcomings and seek help.
Navy didn't really have to face the above challenges because:
1) they knew the challenges,
2) They worked with the designers and
3) If things failed, they had a strong R&D environment that they would go back to to fix things.... IAF and Army have none of these.
You mentioned the downward spiral of delays, low customer confidence and lower government outlay. This is true of a private program or a normal project... in case of such big projects, such a model should be torn apart. In fact, I'd say that the opposite happened:
low government outlay and support --> Lack of momentum. Add to that the technological challenges that come with R&D programs --> Delays. Delays in Allocation also delay programs further.
Coming to the "customer"... it is unfortunate that IAF thought of itself in those terms. This was a national project and it was IAF's duty to give all out support - I'm not saying that they should not have looked at other options as well - indeed, I'd fault them for that if so. However, the services should not sit back and expect to be served a final product - they have to participate in the cooking also.
Anyway, the good news is that all my cribbings are dissolving at present - both IAF and GTRE have changed their ways for the better. Hence, I think allocating blame now for past crimes is redundant... however, given that the MoD and the Babus don't seem to have learnt anything at all, and are hellbent on not changing, we can only crib about how they will ruin all that is going well. indeed, if GTRE and DRDO don't get the required funds and support for the infrastructure they need, how can we expect them to give results??
Kailash wrote:
I would be happy to be proven wrong. How many variants and offshoots of Kaveri/Kabini are planned for next 10-15 years? Any clear plans for improved thrust ratings, engines for UAVs, definite research to develop a dual mode ram/scram jet engines?
***Not sure how to move this to the engines thread, can someone help?
Plans are still afoot, but as said - KMGT is going extremely well. It has acquired even more importance after the Shivalik thingy. A CNG version for the railways is being looked at. RAm and scramjets are already being done, including dual modes. That isn't directly under GTRE though - it is a multi-lab venture. UAV engines being developed at ADE, with help from GTRE.
The Kabini core is excellent, and they are indeed also looking at a high bypass version for civilian jets. They will continue to tweak it for more uses.
The Eco-Kaveri thing is already on the works for a higher thrust engine. we will definitely look at higher power engines also.
More uses will come to the fore in a 2-3 years, once the Kaveri gets air-tested and done. But more than the Kaveri, it is the technological advance that India, DRDO and GTRE have got that should be counted.