Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Arun KS
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Arun KS »

Talking of the GTRE-SNECMA JV, I wish it shouldn't be like CFM international a JV by GE and SNECMA for medium thrust engines. JV hardly had any ToT and what they used to do was that , GE used to make the core and SNECMA the low temp region under the supervision of GE. I hope this does not happen with GTRE-SNECMA.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Rahul M »

agupta wrote:
Rahul M wrote: MOD (mis)managed GTRE on its own and kept DRDO out of the loop.

errm... rahul - could u clarify what u meant here ? MoD's link to GTRE is the DRDO mgt/leadership..its not a DoD PSU like MDNL that MOD can (mis)manage on its own. I can't recall any time in the last 2 decades where what your saying here could apply... GTRE has always been "(mis)managed" just fine by DRDO itself ... they unfortunately made some claims they couldn't wiggle out of (OR) never had the guts or means to stand up to multiple SAs promising their political masters "2 more years to IOC" uncountable number of times. Enough hard working people in BLR/HYD/DRDO had to make do with squirming and looking at their feet at their bosses lying to the press then that it was truly sad to watch
this is what I came to know from someone I consider very reliable, that through the 90's GTRE was being managed directly by MOD itself. of course, you are free to disbelieve this nugget !
agupta wrote:.......
oops, yes I meant DMRL onlee !
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Shri Saraswat on Kaveri
The engine had performed exceedingly well in high-altitude tests in Russia, Dr. Saraswat said. “We want to use the Kaveri engine for the advanced medium combat aircraft. It will also power ships.”
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Sagar G »

SSridhar wrote:Shri Saraswat on Kaveri
The engine had performed exceedingly well in high-altitude tests in Russia, Dr. Saraswat said. “We want to use the Kaveri engine for the advanced medium combat aircraft. It will also power ships.”
:)

I hope the engine parameters are also released soon.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pralay »

Umrao Das wrote: Why need collobrations in the age of mega flop computing power of CDAC?
Computer models are based on statistics and principles/assumptions. Real testing and validation is must to get data to make computer models.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12187
The DRDO is thinking of installing the indigenous Kaveri engine in Tejas. But the engine has had multiple problems and French company Snecma is currently working on it.


The Navy might be forced to test Tejas with the current General Electric F404 engine. The test will ascertain its flight characteristics and whether its structural strength is sufficient for carrier deployment. When Tejas is fitted with Kaveri, the Navy will start operating it from a carrier. Reports said the Tejas naval variant was supposed to be ready for carrier trials by 2013.
multiple problems.. any chiwaalas with biskoot news on these?
sameer_shelavale wrote:
Umrao Das wrote: Why need collobrations in the age of mega flop computing power of CDAC?
Computer models are based on statistics and principles/assumptions. Real testing and validation is must to get data to make computer models.
OT: Hope these assumptions are correct and real testing and validations are not required for our 200kt thermonuclear weapons.

The fact that CDAC can help is important, and this how France, America and the leading precision engineering nations done it.

We can do it the same from the first principles is what mr. snow says. This is important to any real jingo.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Sagar G »

multiple problems.. any chiwaalas with biskoot news on these?
Saar just a few post above your's says something totally different
The engine had performed exceedingly well in high-altitude tests in Russia, Dr. Saraswat said. “We want to use the Kaveri engine for the advanced medium combat aircraft. It will also power ships.”
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by jaladipc »

Sorry for my late posting in the Kaveri thread.
Am I missing something or what?

If my memory stands correct,I remember like some 5 or 6 years ago... BARC transfered the technology of Single crystals that can withstand 1000`s of degrees temperature which can be used in gas turbines and at the same time they did transfered the technology to HAL regarding shape memory alloys for use in Tejas.
And now again why is all this rant about the lack of material technology in india?
Isnt it conformed that GTRE lacked the balls to realize kaveri given the technology/materials and money/time?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by JimmyJ »

This may be a newbie question, but still

The question is why was Kaveri designed as a flat rated engine and is it true that no other flat rated engine are available as a replacement ? If so why was Kaveri designed differently while the world moved in a different direction?

I have virtually zero knowledge about engines, this question popped up while going through an article on aircraft engines, the link is below

http://www.aircraftenginedesign.com/custom.html4.html

http://www.boeing-727.com/Data/engine/F ... ating.html

Could not find much more about these on the web, would be glad if pointed to a good source to look at the jargons. :)
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Willy »

Why dont they design the Kaveri with Thrust vectoring now itself. If its going to power the MCA that should be one of the pre-requisites.
Neshant
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Neshant »

GTRE probably got cold feet from being the one holding up the entire LCA project and decided to junk the kaveri project. The word joint venture is used with SNECMA but the reality is India is paying to buy an engine developed in France thereby subsidizing French R&D at great cost. That is really sad.

I don't think the lack of funding is a problem. I'm certain GOI would gladly throw in a half billion dollars more if there was some hope that GTRE could finish the project on it own.

Lack of experienced scientists/engineers who have not had the same opportunities/exposure as western engineers have (to incubate & grow in private sector engineering/aerospace firms) might perhaps be the problem. Also the lack of a supply chain/support base of small/mid scale engineering companies or even a basic manufacturing base might be another problem.

In fact India does not even have a single company developing & producing cell phones indegenously. Its all imported from China and elsewhere and renamed.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by jaladipc »

JimmyJ wrote:This may be a newbie question, but still

The question is why was Kaveri designed as a flat rated engine and is it true that no other flat rated engine are available as a replacement ? If so why was Kaveri designed differently while the world moved in a different direction?
a very good question in indeed.though I am not an expert,I will put them at my best.
Since India is only one of those countries which has demanding environments right from highest peaks to sub low ranges and highest humidity to lowest and hotest to coldest,an aircraft operating on the Indian land mass will have to go through all kinds of extremes and such demanding conditions demands a challenging engine.And a Flat rated engine allows to operate under such demanding conditions, without the need for extra structural strengthening due to higher peak power output of the engine.
In this case the turbine output will always remain the same more or less, but when atmospheric conditions such as high temperatures and high altitude reduce the power output of the engine it has more headroom before it falls below the limited maximum output( this bit from wiki)
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

Neshant wrote:In fact India does not even have a single company developing & producing cell phones indegenously. Its all imported from China and elsewhere and renamed.
:(( How does a country who has more mobile users than US NOT have their own R&D to produce CELL PHONES??? :x
:idea: microMAX
:idea: INTEX
:idea: Karbonn Mobiles - JUST 9 months old!
:idea: ONIDA
:idea: VIDEOCON
:idea: SPICE
get the point Genius??

ADDED L8R: Could go on 4 more, but don't wanna deviate from letting this thread go OT.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by JimmyJ »

jaladipc wrote: a very good question in indeed.though I am not an expert,I will put them at my best.
Since India is only one of those countries which has demanding environments right from highest peaks to sub low ranges and highest humidity to lowest and hotest to coldest,an aircraft operating on the Indian land mass will have to go through all kinds of extremes and such demanding conditions demands a challenging engine.And a Flat rated engine allows to operate under such demanding conditions, without the need for extra structural strengthening due to higher peak power output of the engine.
In this case the turbine output will always remain the same more or less, but when atmospheric conditions such as high temperatures and high altitude reduce the power output of the engine it has more headroom before it falls below the limited maximum output( this bit from wiki)
Thanks a lot jaladipc, thats gives a practical reason for having a flat rated engine. Other than India, doesn't US too face the same issue? They are a world wide operator and probably experience similar situation. Also there planes are sold world wide. Wouldn't it be better for them too to have a flat rated engine?
Hari Seldon
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

Any updates on the kaveri? Is the project dead? Just wondering.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by aditp »

Big Boss DRDO recently said that the Kaveri is in flight testing phase. Probably still in Russia.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Bheem »

Craig Alpert wrote:
Neshant wrote:In fact India does not even have a single company developing & producing cell phones indegenously. Its all imported from China and elsewhere and renamed.
:(( How does a country who has more mobile users than US NOT have their own R&D to produce CELL PHONES??? :x
:idea: microMAX
:idea: INTEX
:idea: Karbonn Mobiles - JUST 9 months old!
:idea: ONIDA
:idea: VIDEOCON
:idea: SPICE
get the point Genius??

ADDED L8R: Could go on 4 more, but don't wanna deviate from letting this thread go OT.
I thought all these are chinese assemblies??????
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Rahul M »

^^^ plz take this cellphone discussion elsewhere.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by aditp »

India to flight-test first indigenous jet engine next month
Deccan Herald on 07-Apr-10 wrote: Bangalore, Apr 7 (PTI)

After two decades of research and development, India is all set to flight-test its first indigenously developed jet engine next month, an official said on Wednesday.

"Kaveri engine will be flight-tested in one-and-half months... Should be after middle of May," Director of Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a DRDO lab, T Mohana Rao, said.

It would be flight-tested using the IL-76 aircraft in Russia, he said. The Kaveri engine, meant for India's fighter jet, the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, has completed all simulation and altitude tests. The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success", he said.
GTRE officials said around Rs 3,000 crore has been spent on the Kaveri project.

Rao said GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 50 kg from 60 kg. "It has to be fine-tuned. We will go in for lot of optimisation in future".

GTRE, which is engaged in research and development of gas turbines for military aircraft, has so far developed nine Kaveri engines and four Kabini (core of Kaveri). "All engines have been tested to full potential," he added.

Adminullahs, please provide a bhangra emoticon :mrgreen:
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Rahul M »

dilli abhi dur hai.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pralay »

Rao said GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 50 kg from 60 kg. "It has to be fine-tuned. We will go in for lot of optimisation in future".
bhere thij 50kg-60kg numbars came fram ? bhat is thij weighing 50-60kg ekjactly ? is the Kabini core ?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Venu »

It should have been 'GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine by 50 kg to 60 kg' , probably.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by arya »

50 from 60 kg :eek:
anyway good to hear anything new about KAVERI :lol:
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by wilson_th »

The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success",
.... I think this is the first confirmation of the last Altitude test in Russia... how fast can we incoorporate the engine into LCA?, Is the success another reason for the delay in identifying a foreign engine?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by karan_mc »

Kaveri powering a Tejas PV will only be ceremonial and should be done only after PV Tejas have completed major work needed for IOC AND FOC ,may be by end of 2011 ,if i remember correctly GTRE wanted to test fly it by end of 2010 and i don't think it is possible at all
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by VinayG »

any news about the marine verson
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Venu »

^^ last I heard, it is under evaluation by IN.

However, we need larger and more powerful versions of it, to move our naval behemoths.

Can say, it is still years away.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Kartik »

wilson_th wrote: I think this is the first confirmation of the last Altitude test in Russia... how fast can we incoorporate the engine into LCA?, Is the success another reason for the delay in identifying a foreign engine?
it will first have to be used on a twin engined fighter which can accomodate it so that there is redundancy in case it has issues in flight..

most likely candidate fighter for the Kaveri will be a MiG-29 since the RD-33 weight, thrust and CG characteristics will be somewhat close to that of Kaveri's..the Jaguar, Su-30MKI, etc. either use much smaller (Adour) or larger (Al-31FP) engines.

And no, the Kaveri program is for all intents and purposes delinked from the Tejas Mk1 since the first 2 Tejas squadrons will fly with the F404 IN20 engine. and there is no way in hell that the Kaveri can meet the additional 90+kN thrust requirements for the Tejas Mk2.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Mitsy »

Deccan Herald on 07-Apr-10 wrote:
Rao said GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 50 kg from 60 kg. "It has to be fine-tuned. We will go in for lot of optimisation in future".

First post here.. have been following Kaveri development keenly given the importance the same has for India's future defence infra fulfillment..

The greatest positive which probably can be taken out from this news is that GTRE has not given up and is now looking at incremental improvements in the Kaveri engine as the way to go.
Tie up with snecma would probably have been the short cut. The real learnings and indigenous tech competency development will come from working on incrementally improving the existing design onlee..

Great news!
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

Continuing from the LCA thread ...
neerajb wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:How this engine is supposted to be tested gurus. On one LCA or some other aircraft. I thought our people done lot of testing in Russia on some Russian aircraft. Is there any clear news on that.
Above link says this:
It would be flight-tested using the IL-76 aircraft in Russia, he said.
Cheers....
To add to that ... it'd be most probably tested on IL-76LL testbed and, when installed on one of the engine pylons/stations, most probably will look like one of the following:

For testing SAM146 engine

For testing the NK-93 engine
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by jaladipc »

The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success", he said.
The report is misleading.Because the high altitude testing was completed in Russia before.Probably this might be something related to integration with Tejas?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by PratikDas »

This is great news! There was always this fear, at least in my mind, that the bureaucrats would screw things up by abandoning the indigenous effort.

There must have been some promising signs for this support to be warranted.

But is 100 cr enough?

The same Economic Times page has another news article - Two mega highway proj for Rs 7800 cr to be bid out in 2 months. So thats the value we associate to a national jet engine, 1/39th the cost of a mega highway.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by NRao »

Two observations on engine vs. highways.

Highways are needed - sorely needed in India. India is too backward in infrastructure, far too backward. I have not kept up with the cost of road construction, but assuming these figures are valid, the ROI would/should be huge. That ROI perhaps can contribute later on to provide more funds for other projects like a sustained effort for engines.

The engine funding project seems to me is in its infancy. Since they are funding multiple projects I would expect them to provide more funds when some projects mature down the line.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by merlin »

jaladipc wrote:
The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success", he said.
The report is misleading.Because the high altitude testing was completed in Russia before.Probably this might be something related to integration with Tejas?
High altitude testing would have been done in simulated conditions and not in an Il-76. Kaveri will *only now* undergo testing on an Il-76.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vina »

Well, this was Enqyoob ud-din-e-Gas-Turbiney's pet wish. Too bad he has become ghaayab, gone away, hiding in boorqa to not be singing hosannas to a good initiative.

All the same, now that the tests are done, it is time for the rubber to hit the road for the Kaveri.

What they were doing was to sling the Kaveri down in a cradle from the underside of a IL-76 testbed . Really doubt if the IL-76 was flying on Kaveri's power. This time, they will replace one of the engines of the IL-76 with the Kaveri and it will have to pull it's weight and more in keeping the plane flying along with the other 3 engines. I guess they would test it for 150 hrs or so before it is flight qualified and after that it can be fitted into the PV-1 for trials on the LCA.

Things are looking good. Keep fingers crossed folks.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Kailash »

Same news, more details
The scope of the GATET Initiative is to invite & sanction projects to various academic and other Research Institutions as per the following six areas of specialization:

- Compressor & Fan :- Stall and Surge Studies, Blade Design & Fluid Structure Interaction Studies, Tip Clearance Studies.

- Combustor, Afterburner and Nozzle :- Combustion & Flame Stabilization Studies, Multiphase Flows and Fuel Injector Studies, Thrust Vectoring.

- Turbine / Heat Transfer :- Blade Design & Cooling, Fluid flow and Heat Transfer, Large-Eddy Simulation

- Engine Mathematical Model & Simulation, Controls and System Engineering :- Multivariable Control Schemes, Life Cycle Management, MDO for Gas Turbine Application.

- Sensors and Measurement Devices :- Design, Development and Calibration of Sensors including Non-Intrusive Sensors for High Temperature Measurements.

- Unsteady CFD / Structure Interaction and Mechanical aspects of Turbo-machinery:- Engine/Module/Sub-System simulation using CFD, Aero Elastic study of Turbo-Machinery Blades and Control of Blade Flutter, Evaluation for Surface cracks in Gas Turbine Components and Structures, Surface Crack Growth Prediction, Life Prediction Methodologies, Magnetic Bearing/Seals.
Good that they are chasing basic research. Great that this is not linked with a customer GSQR which is prone to shifting. Let them come of up with a roadmap - a series of engines to learn and demonstrate the technology, materials etc.

The use for those powerplants and cutom(er)izations will obviously follow!!
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by narmad »

looks like some babu is really following BRF discussions
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

narmad wrote:looks like some babu is really following BRF discussions
Ummm, I'm not so sure - as, with nothing on Turbine metallurgy (aka superalloys and SC blades etc.) or "deployable" advanced manufacturing processes thereof(of Turbine), a point that has been belaboured in BR for almost 2-3 years now as to being the "achilees heel" for this program, it appears one of those good-but-incomplete attempt to fix this problem/issue.

Yes, of course, it doesn't really fall under GTRE's remit (maybe DMRL's domain) but when the attempt is to reach out to the institutes for theoretical and applied research why not go the whole hog.
:-?
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