Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Pratyush
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Prem/Bharath,

The string is the emasculation of Indian strategic and tactical capacity of another generation.

Coupled with proceeds from the manufacturing of each and every piece.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

Prem Kumar wrote:The tweet by Aman Routray has a slide from a Safran person showing "full TOT for engines for Tejas & AMCA, including know-how & know-why. Ensuring future autonomy for India in this area. Something that they've never done with anyone". Pretty much in black & white!

Sharing it here again: https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 4333652992

So, I think there is a fundamental change in thinking. Question is: what strings does it come with?
So Safaran is willing to share know how and know why...hain ji?? You guys have missed this beauty..

https://fuentitech.com/india-fines-fren ... ay/419466/

What happened to TOT to Kaveri program via offset route. They are out to scam us again if we get too happy with carrot proposal and forget their past record.

Nobody is going to change or give us anything, unless they are forced by our own development.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

SinghS wrote:So Safaran is willing to share know how and know why...hain ji?? You guys have missed this beauty..

https://fuentitech.com/india-fines-fren ... ay/419466/

What happened to TOT to Kaveri program via offset route. They are out to scam us again if we get too happy with carrot proposal and forget their past record.

Nobody is going to change or give us anything, unless they are forced by our own development.
Btw Dassault has been fined for not complying with offset contracts !!

Does the French walk their talk ?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Yagnasri wrote:Yes sir.
Thank You. No Sir please.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:Btw Dassault has been fined for not complying with offset contracts !!

Does the French walk their talk?
If they want a follow on order for Rafale and nuclear powered submarines, they will gladly walk the talk.

The fine will be pocket change compared to the billions they will earn.

AUKUS stung them bad and they will be motivated to make a sale.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

SinghS & Kit: yes, we need to watch out, but lets not diss this before evaluating it on its merit.

Yes, I can think of no better way by the West to screw us over than by starting a big JV, drag it along for a decade and pull out (or refuse to do ToT), setting us back by a decade. We have to guard against such back-stabbing.

But we mustn't fear to negotiate. I sense some winds of change
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar, fully agree. +108 to you Sirjee.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

Rakesh wrote:
kit wrote:Btw Dassault has been fined for not complying with offset contracts !!

Does the French walk their talk?
If they want a follow on order for Rafale and nuclear powered submarines, they will gladly walk the talk.

The fine will be pocket change compared to the billions they will earn.

AUKUS stung them bad and they will be motivated to make a sale.
They have already amortized the fine by not ploughing 50% cost of rafale deal. We have no idea out of $3.5B what was ploughed back. Now what's the amount of fine...hardly 118M or so.

The MOD guys are currently looking like overpaid clowns.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

SinghS wrote:They have already amortized the fine by not ploughing 50% cost of rafale deal. We have no idea out of $3.5B what was ploughed back. Now what's the amount of fine...hardly 118M or so.

The MOD guys are currently looking like overpaid clowns.
All valid points.

Would France like it if the IAF/GOI went with another competitor, instead of follow on Rafales? To quote Saurav Jha ---> the 114 MRFA contest is for France to lose. Would France be happy if Russia swooped in and offered to build nuclear powered submarines for cheaper? The French would be looking forward to clinching both deals. At that point, will it really matter that the MoD will look like overpaid clowns?

Amount of Fine - A paltry $118 million dollars.

Loss of additional Rafales and nuclear powered submarines - billions in lost revenue.

Is it better for the French to pay the fine OR lose potential billions in business?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

Especially after losing the Australian order for subs to AUKUS
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

100% Kakarat-ji. AUKUS is a blessing in disguise for India, as long as both countries play their cards right. And the French will earn that $118 million fine many, many, many times over if they clinch both deals.

Lets not expect wonderful fairly tales from the French (or from whoever else). That is a media spin, that many on BRF get caught up in. If the French can develop a 110kN (or more) turbofan for the AMCA, I would be happy and do a quiet lungi dance. Just like the Shakti turboshaft, the MoD can publish in their annual report that it is an indigenous turbofan ( :lol: ) and All Izz Well.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 45570?s=20 ---> Vibration transducer installation on various components on GTRE Gas Turbine Engine. These sensors detects vibration signals from the components. Aerodynamic vibrations inside a jet engine should be minimum, vibrations will lead to crack in components & failure of the engine.

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter thread on Kaveri Dry Engine ---> https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 84802?s=20
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

FWIW....

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 15618?s=20 ---> Presently all the R&D is focused on making a 98kN thrust Kaveri Turbofan whose LP/HP shafts needs to be optimized and synchronized with the gearbox.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 86883?s=20 ---> The screech issue has been resolved as of now for the base Kaveri. But the engine has to be flight tested to know whether have completely solved it.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Gyan »

There was some CAG report out of USD 13 Billion of offsets owed, only around USD 3 Billion have been audited to have been fulfilled
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

The French were giving a presentation last month about giving know-how & know-why about aero-engines. They owe us offsets. We can put 2+2 together and ask them for engine help as part of their offset commitments.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Prem Kumar wrote:The French were giving a presentation last month about giving know-how & know-why about aero-engines. They owe us offsets. We can put 2+2 together and ask them for engine help as part of their offset commitments.
Without our own flying test bed for engines and related equipment we will never know if these work, I hope someone has the sense to first acquire a flying test bed IL76, Airbus or Boeing aircraft for this purpose
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by isubodh »

Aditya_V wrote:
Without our own flying test bed for engines and related equipment we will never know if these work, I hope someone has the sense to first acquire a flying test bed IL76, Airbus or Boeing aircraft for this purpose
Do we need to buy it or can be leased too for duration of testing ?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Better to buy it and let our folks know the results quickly, they will innovate. Lease will come some restrictions
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Gyan »

How much tech or TOT has France given for Shakti Helo engines which were to be license manufactured in India?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by nash »

Rakesh wrote:FWIW....

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 15618?s=20 ---> Presently all the R&D is focused on making a 98kN thrust Kaveri Turbofan whose LP/HP shafts needs to be optimized and synchronized with the gearbox.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 86883?s=20 ---> The screech issue has been resolved as of now for the base Kaveri. But the engine has to be flight tested to know whether have completely solved it.
From last night, the Indian Defence @defence_in is lit with information from webinar. We may see some serious money finally coming to engine development.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

Idiots
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Igorr »

SinghS wrote: What happened to TOT to Kaveri program via offset route. They are out to scam us again if we get too happy with carrot proposal and forget their past record.

Nobody is going to change or give us anything, unless they are forced by our own development.
Why to not use the already locally licensed RD-33 as a median solution till ToT for an indigenous engine gave fruits. I mean it can be a permanent pressure point for GOI against foreign vendors if they hesitate with ToT. In the worse case IAF can follow with modernized RD-33 or some hybrid solution common with Kavery program.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ShivS »

Rakesh wrote:FWIW....

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 15618?s=20 ---> Presently all the R&D is focused on making a 98kN thrust Kaveri Turbofan whose LP/HP shafts needs to be optimized and synchronized with the gearbox.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 86883?s=20 ---> The screech issue has been resolved as of now for the base Kaveri. But the engine has to be flight tested to know whether have completely solved it.
Rakesh, this issue is now front and centre for the MK2
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

nash wrote:
Rakesh wrote:FWIW....

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 15618?s=20 ---> Presently all the R&D is focused on making a 98kN thrust Kaveri Turbofan whose LP/HP shafts needs to be optimized and synchronized with the gearbox.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 86883?s=20 ---> The screech issue has been resolved as of now for the base Kaveri. But the engine has to be flight tested to know whether have completely solved it.
From last night, the Indian Defence @defence_in is lit with information from webinar. We may see some serious money finally coming to engine development.
kprasad, you have something in your mind isn't it? Say so.

So, these interesting slides, particularly the “Capabilities and Gaps” one, has some interesting points that straightaway jumps out:

1) TBC seems to be a major bottleneck, and they haven’t mastered Electron Beam based PVD is it – but we have had multiple confirmations for the same in the Kaveri thread, from a few years back.
Are they trying to suggest that they have achieved 1425deg C TeT via multipass convectional cooling - and they need TBC to graduate to 1550deg C TeT, is it?

2) Mastering Powder Metallurgy (mostly for discs/spools) is a challenge, it seems – which is unfortunate, given the scale of technology that’s already been mastered, but nothing to scoff at, by any means.
Baffling of course is, it seems PM for LPT disc is done, but nor so for HPT discs – that shouldn’t have been a major leap wrt technology levels.

3) Saw CMC (SiC matrix reinforced by SiC fibers) mentioned for some of static components (Nozzle flaps, Turbine shrouds etc) as yet to be mastered.
However, we have had multiple news reports (again for multiple recent years) linked to this thread, that it has been achieved – maybe the mass-manufacturing technology is not mature yet.
Really baffling is if CMC for Nozzle petals are already achieved, how come not for th Nozzle flaps.

(for rotors, CMC is the cutting edge as it would provide ~100-150deg C TeT advantage straightway, apart from significant weight advantages – GE et all have already achieved and have productionized this)

4) Didn’t understand if they have already achieved Ti MMC based HPC or not – if yes, then it's like beyond-contemporary-cutting edge level
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

nash wrote:From last night, the Indian Defence @defence_in is lit with information from webinar. We may see some serious money finally coming to engine development.
I saw that as well. sivab posted the first tweet. Posting the additional slides here...

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The flutter issues have been solved. Tool for flutter design has been realized. Then the tool was was tested, got the result in first design try. Around 2017-18, did a complete review by Safran, Kaveri be ready for flight tests with 3 yrs maximum. Courtesy: Not So Dravidian-DFI.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The DRDO have developed both the single crystal blade and titanium compressor disk.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... L5WWWQD-tQ --->

1. HTFE 25 will be integrated with afterburner and variable area nozzle.

2. A lot of work is being done in CMC, PMC and MMC.

3. An Indigenous turboprop engine is proposed for RTA and 250 hp engine is under Development by NAL.

Courtesy: Firestarter-DFI.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The development of the Turbo Machinery.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The combustion and the afterburner systems are fully worked out.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The AMCA's engine would be the "EJ 200 class engine" in terms of the technology.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> Correction: T/W> =10, TeT Max 2050K, OPR = 32.5. These specs are too ambitious. Even F119 & F135 doesn't have these specs.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The structural design studies of the AMCA is done.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The HAETF specifications.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The advanced technologies for turbine manufacturing.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The CFD analysis of the Full Engine Simulations for the Kaveri.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The JP10 slurry fuel with boron additives is taken, which will improve range from by many hundreds kms.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The Kaveri budget overall is only $0.5 billion. [But there is desire for 114 MRFA, which will cost much more than $0.5 billion. Our priorities!!] :roll:

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The critical technologies for AMCA being developed.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The material configuration of Kaveri engine mostly indigenously developed and made.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The development till now.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The developmental challenge faced during the Kaveri's R&D.

Image

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The advanced technologies of the AMCA engine.

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The Ground based High Altitude Test facility itself will cost ₹4000 crores.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The Experimental Flight Testing of the STFE under development.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> The 28 acres of land is sanctioned for setting up test bed of higher class engine like that of AMCA (120Kn). Once contract is signed, it will take 3-4 years to be commissioned and be operational. The altitude test facility needs about 60-70 acres of land with 90 MW GTRE.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... tE6-etd49g ---> DRDO developed the monolytic composite stealth technology, where they can make air intake duct completely low observable. And also there's special coating of RAM for Low Observation compared to other RAM.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ShivS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:FWIW....

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 15618?s=20 ---> Presently all the R&D is focused on making a 98kN thrust Kaveri Turbofan whose LP/HP shafts needs to be optimized and synchronized with the gearbox.

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 86883?s=20 ---> The screech issue has been resolved as of now for the base Kaveri. But the engine has to be flight tested to know whether have completely solved it.
Rakesh, this issue is now front and centre for the MK2
Indeed. It will not be ready for the first flight of the Tejas Mk2 or even the initial batches of the production. Later batches could feature it or even for the first two units of the AMCA (which is designed to have a pair of GE F414 turbofans). Keeping fingers crossed.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ShivS »

Events have put the GE414 at serious sanctions risk
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Post by chetak »

ShivS wrote:Events have put the GE414 at serious sanctions risk
any sanctions run the serious risk of permanently souring the Indo US relations.

this is not an India of yore, to be bullied, suppressed, and sanctioned into submission

this is a US and global commie wet dream agenda, to isolate, throttle, and recolonize India via a regime change narrative

the US has ruffled far too many feathers, especially in the EU and the gelf regions and there are plenty of high tech players more than willing to take up the slack, as far as India goes.

The US is riven with internal dissensions and like the cheeni, it is not going to be easy for the US to overcome those contradictions

the US standoff with Putin is not going to play out too well either.

The last thing the US can actually afford is a hostile India
Last edited by chetak on 31 Jan 2022 00:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Is there a link to that webinar or its presentation? Thanks, ramana
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

ShivS wrote:Events have put the GE414 at serious sanctions risk
Is this based on any realistic assessment or conjecture?
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Post by Pratyush »

It's a realistic assumption to make.

People are thinking that PRC unchecked by India is not in US interests. But we are w paying attention to the subversion from within of the US that has taken place over the last few decades.

The Ukrainian adventure, the Afghan debacle. The over bearing COVID response.

They seem to be undergoing an internal cultural revolution on their own.

In this chaos, it is best not to be dependent on the US.
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Post by vera_k »

There's the S400 irritant of course. But nuclear testing may well need to resume now that building a large deterrent looks unavoidable.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Neela »

Below, isn't the Manik engine is it?
https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 8847858688RCI NAL 2.7 kn engine for tactical missile.

Courtesy: Firestarter-DFI.
Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SidSoma »

ShivS wrote:Events have put the GE414 at serious sanctions risk
I am not sure they will risk the possibility of not selling 200+ engines to India with spares. MK2 is still Design in progress, India might just bite the bullet and re engine the plane (Its a lose-lose situation for all). It might provide the right impetus to develop a Indian engine although I dont see us developing one to power the MK2 in the limited time frame. But yes they must realise that sanctions last time is the reason India will never ever buy the F-16 or any of its incarnations (F-21 or F-22 lite).

They have to choose. Do they want to be part of India's Success story or not. We are going places with or without them.

TLDR: Sanctions are a lose-lose situation, but it will hurt US much more than it will hurt India.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by sankum »

Reports are there they are developing a 98 kn version of kaveri as per tweets posted by Rakesh.

I don't think this is officially confirmed.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

SidSoma wrote:
ShivS wrote:Events have put the GE414 at serious sanctions risk
I am not sure they will risk the possibility of not selling 200+ engines to India with spares. MK2 is still Design in progress, India might just bite the bullet and re engine the plane (Its a lose-lose situation for all). It might provide the right impetus to develop a Indian engine although I dont see us developing one to power the MK2 in the limited time frame. But yes they must realise that sanctions last time is the reason India will never ever buy the F-16 or any of its incarnations (F-21 or F-22 lite).

They have to choose. Do they want to be part of India's Success story or not. We are going places with or without them.

TLDR: Sanctions are a lose-lose situation, but it will hurt US much more than it will hurt India.
It's not so much as being a part of India's "success story" but the inherent desire and ability to control and subvert India's support as well as, solidify her dependency on ameriki resources, weaning her away from france, israel, and the russkis.

Obviously, they have reassessed their erstwhile strategic support processes and adhoc control mechanisms as tried out with the paki army, ISI, and what passes for the body politic in pukestan and are in the process of adapting their mechanisms to suit Indian conditions, systems, and cultural sensibilities.

One of the easiest solutions is Modi out and pappu in.

There are no direct and applicable narratives to correspond to the paki or shall we say the ummah model that has been tried and tested by the ameriki deep state the world over, no comparable structures in India that are the equivalent of the paki army, the ISI, and the politicos/ruling families with dual citizenships, bloodthirsty african dictators and latin ameriki desperados

It is not that India is not going to be going places on her own, what they actually and ultimately want is an India that goes exactly where the ameriki deep state wants her to go and Indian boots on the ground where and when the amerikis say they want them. The Indian markets are a welcome bonus

the cheeni tried the exact same thing but using the carrot of the BRI. Both the amerikis and the cheeni see India only as a resource rich mountain to be tapped, be it food supply, people, or markets

Goras do not really want to fight others' battles anymore but still need to wield the stick.....
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

sankum wrote:Reports are there they are developing a 98 kn version of kaveri as per tweets posted by Rakesh.

I don't think this is officially confirmed.
98KN (Wet) implies ~70KN (Dry) - “Yamuna”, anyone? :mrgreen:

However, I don't think it's possible to “upgrade” the present Kaveri-Core (of 51KN/80KN rating) to these levels, without changing the Mass-flow levels dramatically – but that would impact the efficiency (and SFC) levels badly.
Changing mass flow (to such dramatic levels) is only possible by changing the dimensions (e.g. inlet dia, bypass design etc), which would mean a brand new core aka brand new engine itself – so a new clean sheet design (aka Ganga).

However, 60KN/90KN levels (Kaveri-II) are achievable with the current core, while bringing down the weight to 900Kg level – but that will require embracing/mastering,
1) the thrust increment, is mostly via a dry thrust increment from a better (and lighter) fan of 3.6-3.7 FPR levels (and thus improved LPT), improving the BPR (and there goes the dry thrust rating etc) in conjunction with slight OPR increase to compensate for “reduced” mass-flow thru core
2) the lighter aspect via MMC tech (for Compressor blings), CMC for the stator parts, Shrouds, Nozzles, PM for HPT/LPT disks etc.
Pls do note HPC and LPC “weight loss” will help in OPR increment mentioned in pt 1 above.

This will be a very very creditable technical “match-up” with the contemporary turbofans available to us (to us, by uh so benevolent Unkil - for a steep price, like ~$9m for a 404, right?) – aka the so-called 4th Gen Turbofan listed in the above slides.

Achieving Yamuna (70KN/98KN) levels, with the same mass flow of 78Kg/s, will require almost every aspect of the core to graduate to next technological levels (as listed in above set of slides), including TET increase to 1900K levels (and OPR as well to > 30 levels).
Of course, this same tech but with higher mass-flow (and bigger dimensions) would take it to the Ganga (90KN/120KN) levels.

I think a three-pronged approach is more sensible – Yamuna (70KN/98KN level) for MK2 and Kaveri-II (60KN/90KN level) for Mk1/1A, while Ganga
(90KN/120KN level) for AMCA.

Am I being super-greedy - you bet, I am.
But do we have the atmanirbharata-mindset to ignore all the import-pasands all around, and sufficiently fund all these 3 programmes, in parallel, consistently for atleast a decade?
Nah … won’t happen!!

Much easier to fear-monger about Unkils/Aunts/Goras-subjugation-desire etc and other assorted slogan-baazi, instead. :roll:
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