Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Rakesh
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

IDRW, so take it with (huge) skepticism. No one else has reported this.

Safran-GTRE FTB engine trial likely to commence in 2028
http://idrw.org/safran-gtre-rafale-ftb- ... e-in-2028/
20 May 2022
Cyrano
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

If I were a powerful country that didn't want India to develop its own aero engine, what would I do? I'd corrupt a few key GTRE employees, create dud collaborations to deliver below par engines and keep iterating them endlessly - eternal hope of success = repeated failure.

Is dissolving GTRE and pouring money into 2 Indian public+private consortia to compete and deliver within 5 years a good solution ? like the F22/YF23 competition?

Sorry if this sounds disrespectful to our researchers but the fact is they have not achieved whats expected again and again, and even a usable spinoff like a marine GT engine hasnt happened.

The turn of global events is shouting at us that we can't have this Achilles heel any longer. US can shut off supplying GE engines or even spares and our aero development will come to a halt and Tejas fleet will be grounded. Can happen any time.
ramana
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I would corrupt higher-ups to whom I have access: in civil and military services to demand state of the art requirements and ensure trickle funds.
And retired officials berate GTRE for poor performance so that even if they accomplish something other experts can claim just a few gems in the sands...
All GTRE can do is theoretical research.
Kaveri was high requirements and a low budget
And no funds to improve on the lessons learned.
{They need to re-do the core. Rest is working per design)
But lots of funds to import technology!

One big lesson: You can't design unless you build it.
It is an iterative process not just drawing up a sketch and building it.
Works for simple wooden furniture.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:IDRW, so take it with (huge) skepticism. No one else has reported this.

Safran-GTRE FTB engine trial likely to commence in 2028
http://idrw.org/safran-gtre-rafale-ftb- ... e-in-2028/
20 May 2022
Could be an outcome of the Indo-French talks.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

ramana wrote: civil and military services to demand state of the art requirements and ensure trickle funds
...
And retired officials berate GTRE for poor performance... .
That's how MoD and the forces functioned for a long time, not much effort required if I were conspiring from the outside :rotfl: :(

I don't expect dramatic success - ie: an air worthy fighter engine that can perform as expected across a future AMCA/TEDBF's projected fight envelope - from this latest French collaboration.

We aren't even talking about productionising, reliability, MTBF, serviceability, support tools, procedures, spares supply, trained on base teams and logistics mastered ... It's a chain of 8k peaks to climb before we can say we are really atmanirbhar in this field. Like you said Ramana garu all these things are also iteratively acquired.

BTW, between making a good working engine and atmanirbhar end state there is a fighter to build with this new engine, test, commission, induct and fly and flog for years

Even if we start in mission mode now, getting to that final end point is imo somewhere around 2050.

That's perhaps why no one is really interested. Not GTRE, not ADA, DRDO or IAF or MOD. No one wants to dedicate self to a "not in my lifetime' pursuit.

That's why I still think splitting GTRE into 2 equal halves in terms of experts, tools, data etc and building 2 competent public+private consortia and funding them massively and ensuring full support from any DRDO labs is the way to go. Aero jet engine has to go into mission mode and leverage all that we did right and more importantly wrong, and go full throttle from there.

JMT. Our resident experts can opine.

But finally how to bell this flying cat ?!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

GTRE is a research institution/establishment as it says in its name.
Yet it was given product development.
And no one sees the dichotomy?
So splitting it up will destroy whatever good it does.
HAL has jet engine building capability.
Even if GTRE designs it will be built by HAL.
The industrial/product development way would be to task HAL and rope in GTRE to provide expertise as needed for the new designs.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

people are itching to have HAL do research (and if they can help it), have GTRE manufacture the engine - Ensuring 100% failure. Since they cannot ask GTRE to manufacture (without looking very stoopid) they are asking HAL to do research (when it has limited capacity to do this, but the immense capacity to manufacture it) and split GTRE (so that good research cannot be done on engines). Having said that, can there be org change, process change based on whatever fault has been in Kaveri development - yes. The UAV research center is doing wonders with change in leadership and mandate.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Sir ji,
What matters is a desi engine that works; GTRE was exclusively tasked with it but after half a century(!!!) we have nothing useable and no hope for success.

No one would have a problem of they developed the product successfully despite being a "research" institution that should only produce paper. But like they say in Telugu GTRE is " a mother who neither feeds you at home nor lets you beg outside"

Splitting it up in but one option to hopefully inject some dynamism & urgency. Any other model that achieves something is fine. Meanwhile the world has changed so much its become a critical weakness - an unobtanium. I'll stop my rant here !
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

Despite all the hurdles they did get to nearly achieve the requirements. Atleast the dry version. And this when they've never actually built a turbofan engine before that. And they never even got to flight test it after one campaign at Gromov.

How do you expect to build a contemporary engine without all the required facilities and support. Just go back and read AI reports by brfites from 15 years ago. I can still remember Kartik's post recollecting Mohan Rao's ( i think) impassioned plea for understanding of GTRE's situation from an AI seminar. Even today GTRE's director is on record saying they need funds, new facilities and equipment and support to build AMCA's engine. And that will need 100s of crores of investment. Will all those deriding them put up the money? Or plumb for imported solutions ignoring the fact that we even have the damn radar ready and all these investments will go into India for R&D?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Agreed. We can dissect the past or get funding and move on. I don't expect any RM or PM to understand intricacies of aero engine development.

GTRE and it's parent DRDO, and SA to the govt all failed to get the message across to RM, PM and secure required funding. And we are circling endlessly. Sigh!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

fanne wrote:people are itching to have HAL do research (and if they can help it), have GTRE manufacture the engine - .
HAL and research ? 10 years ago one would be laughed out of the room., things have changed now but not to "that" extent
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

HAL has practical engine knowledge compared to the theory stuff of GTRE. Two examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HTFE-25 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HTSE-1200

GTRE attempted an ab initio design for jet engines. If you start from zilch you will have a hard time getting to operational design. No one is going to give you that gyan. India tried hard, they have a body of knowledge which is yet to push them over to the final goal. India therefore is forced to tie up with an existing jet engine manufacturer. Of all the companies that can give know-how there are only a few who might get India over the hump. France and Russia are the only two nations that will collaborate with India. Even this is tricky because it inducts India into jet engine suppliers.

This is not how the rest of the existing companies know jet engines. There was a workable operational axial flow jet engine create during WW-II in Germany known as BMW 003. The German engine is the forefather of many jet engines that followed elsewhere. Current modern jet engines from the US, France, Russia were created from this workable operational engine. Hans von Ohain was granted a patent for his turbojet engine in 1936. Ohain came to the United States in 1947 and became a research scientist at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. By 1937 he had built a factory-tested demonstration engine and, by 1939, a fully operational jet aircraft, the He 178. Before this German jet engine, there were a lot of inventors like Frank Whittle in UK and others who dabbled in jet engine technology. Whittle, who registered a patent for the turbojet engine in 1930, received that recognition but did not perform a flight test until 1941 (sigh!).
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Here we go again ... GTRE was formed mostly with HAL Engine division folks, back in 1980s etc ...
Prasad wrote: <snip>
Just go back and read AI reports by brfites from 15 years ago. I can still remember Kartik's post recollecting Mohan Rao's ( i think) impassioned plea for understanding of GTRE's situation from an AI seminar.
<snip>
Yes here're some details highlighted from it ... rest of it can be read from here Quoting from AI 2009 Aeroseminar by GTRE director T. Mohan Rao
...
...
6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took anothe new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.
...
...
And those lamenting injin nehi banaya abhi taak etc ... maybe they can read up part 1 and 2 from here wrt the history of jet-injin atmanirbharata attempts, before that slogan was coined.

Anyway, carry on please ...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Jay »

maitya wrote:Here we go again ... GTRE was formed mostly with HAL Engine division folks, back in 1980s etc ...
And those lamenting injin nehi banaya abhi taak etc ... maybe they can read up part 1 and 2 from here wrt the history of jet-injin atmanirbharata attempts, before that slogan was coined.

Anyway, carry on please ...
Thanks for rejogging the memory of many posters(old/new) who seem to have ignored/forgotten the constraints Kaveri team had to work with.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by V_Raman »

What they achieved with Kaveri is amazing to be honest - from zero to a fully working engine with FADEC is no joke. My lament is that it was not productionized with whatever output power it can give. any other country would have done it and mounted it on a twin engined fighter...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

V_Raman wrote:What they achieved with Kaveri is amazing to be honest - from zero to a fully working engine with FADEC is no joke. My lament is that it was not productionized with whatever output power it can give. any other country would have done it and mounted it on a twin engined fighter...
^ +101

Hope they mount that powerplant on the Ghatak ASAP
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by V_Raman »

I would like to see it on a Mig-29 airframe and tested
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by skumar »

Cyrano wrote: ...
Even if we start in mission mode now, getting to that final end point is imo somewhere around 2050.
...
If the US could put a man on the moon in 8 years 50+ years ago, we should be able to develop a jet engine in less time than that given what know now and what we can spend today.

We need people like APJ and the political will to spend. We have focused too much on local optima.

This needs a bold political announcement like the moon mission from JFK, a man who knew as little about the moon mission as anyone but has the effect of cutting the parachutes, burning bridges and leaving no excuses for failure at a national level. Anyone impeding or even doubting the mission then is a traitor.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

maitya wrote:Here we go again ... GTRE was formed mostly with HAL Engine division folks, back in 1980s etc ...

Yes here're some details highlighted from it ... rest of it can be read from here Quoting from AI 2009 Aeroseminar by GTRE director T. Mohan Rao
Exactly this post. 13 years ago. Feels like a lifetime ago.

We're in 2022 and the current director has to plead for facilities and funds and support even today. But we want an advent engine tomorrow though.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

Engine Test Bed: If we can get a used 747 (there is a lot of them idling due to Kungflu), replace one engine with Kaveri and do the testing. Boeing can be roped in to deal with the wiring.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ldev »

Not directly about Kaveri but why throwing money at jet engine development, which is a common complaint here, is not a complete answer. This excerpt is about China's struggle to develop jet engines and how what they lack is the "tacit knowledge"that comes only through years of experience in making jet engines inspite of shoveling money at jet engine development.

Dependence on Russian Aircraft Engines Could Prompt China to ‘Fix Their … Problem’
Many of China’s scientists, engineers, designers, and production managers are in their late 20s and early 30s, and they lack the know-how that comes from apprenticeship programs and decades of specialized experience. To make up for that, China has contracted Russian specialists to work inside Chinese factories.

However, “This isn’t a ‘throw money at the problem’ solution,” he said.

“What they still have yet to understand is, modern aviation engines, particularly supercruise fighter engines, are more art than science,” Markov explained.


Engine workers at producers such as Rolls-Royce, Pratt & Whitney, and General Electric have “tacit knowledge” that the Chinese are still lacking, he added.

There’s a lot of phenomenology that takes place in an engine that we still do not … understand … with our qualitative computing technology,” Markov explained. “But there’s a guy named Joe who works at Cincinnati Milacron, who’s been working that thing for 30 years, [who] just knows, through experimentation, time, and experience, that you do this thing to make the engine get this outcome. And that’s the part where China just doesn’t have that capability yet.”
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

ldev wrote: ..............

There’s a lot of phenomenology that takes place in an engine that we still do not … understand … with our qualitative computing technology,” Markov explained. “But there’s a guy named Joe who works at Cincinnati Milacron, who’s been working that thing for 30 years, [who] just knows, through experimentation, time, and experience, that you do this thing to make the engine get this outcome. And that’s the part where China just doesn’t have that capability yet.”
IMO, THAT is "throwing money" at the problem. They threw money for 30 years !!!! At one man. And, there are many such people in the US.

Which brings me to:
If the US could put a man on the moon in 8 years 50+ years ago, .............
The US has a culture of risk. India does not. Lives and materials were lost to reach the moon. It has been posted on BR that a single LCA crash could have terminated the program.

Military engines (of any kind) need a degree of dogged lunacy. It is a matter of collecting reams of data.

On testing facilities, this from Arnold Air Force Base test facility:
AIR BREATHING ENGINE TESTING

Engines are tested throughout their specified flight envelopes including critical areas which represent the limits of their performance. A wide range of flight conditions can be simulated but, generally, the limit for testing air breathing engines is less than Mach 3.8 at simulated altitudes below 100,000 feet. One specific cell, T-3, is designed for testing small engines and has the capability to reach Mach 4.0 at simulated altitudes below 70,000 feet and Mach 2.5 at sea level conditions.

Some of the world's largest jet engines have been tested in the Aeropropulsion Systems Test Facility portion of the ETF. Those include the PW4000 series engines and Rolls-Royce Trent 800 used to power the Boeing 777 as well as the Rolls-Royce Trent 900 and Engine Alliance GP7200 used to power the Airbus A380.

Engines for the development of the nation's most vital aerospace weapons systems have been tested in ETF. Among those are the Pratt & Whitney F119 engine used to power the F-22A Raptor and the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine used to power the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

ETF's SL-2 and SL-3 sea-level test cells provide the capability to operate at either ambient sea level condition, variable temperature ram inlet conditions, or heated inlet sea level conditions without ram and to rapidly transition between those test configurations.

These two cells are capable of testing up to 50,000 pound thrust engines at ram speeds up to Mach 1.2 and temperatures ranging from minus 20 degrees to 350 degrees Fahrenheit.

Another sea level test cell, SL-1, has the capability to operate at sea level conditions in an economical T-9 hush house configuration but is currently in an inertia status. These capabilities are especially critical for economically simulating flight conditions in a ground test facility and rapidly accomplishing Accelerated Mission Testing or Accelerated Simulated Mission Endurance Testing. These tests evaluate engine durability by duplicating the types of missions the engine will actually fly in operational service.
And, that facility was built by moving and improving on the BMW test facility in Germany after the WW. 70 years in the US and some in Germany worth of trials and errors.

So, sure get a 747, but also build out a facility like the above.

Risk

Costs money

And, you have to throw money at the problem

The problem with China is that they want results quick, a problem the US/UK did not have. I am fairly confident IF the Chinese reduce their expectations they will get there sooner.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

These anectodes on engine tech are fine. The "know-how" is very different than what is described in a text book. Take for example the transistor diagram depicted on the chalk board. Three flat wedges of p - n - p as an example. However in nature and in practice getting a flat line is next to impossible. We know it will be wavy in nature. That is why you have companies like KLA-Tencor making equipment that understands the wavy nature of silicon wafers and measures them. In an aircraft engine (btw all flows are sub-sonic due heat and temp) things are not as depicted in a diagram. They are very different in practice. Such things are what RR, GE, Pratt&Whitney have as their store of knowledge which they are not going to part with anyone. One person does not know everything, they might know some thumb rules here and there but the company has the data bank of why each and every thing is a particular way and how they made the component. They know all the failures too which is more revealing than the working thing.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by skumar »

NRao wrote:...
If the US could put a man on the moon in 8 years 50+ years ago, .............
...
The US has a culture of risk. India does not. Lives and materials were lost to reach the moon. It has been posted on BR that a single LCA crash could have terminated the program.
...
True. That is why this needs to be a national mission which is publicly announced in Parliament, the mission goals announced and their importance explained. It will be the armour against any wanna be saboteurs.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

skumar wrote:
NRao wrote:...
...
The US has a culture of risk. India does not. Lives and materials were lost to reach the moon. It has been posted on BR that a single LCA crash could have terminated the program.
...
True. That is why this needs to be a national mission which is publicly announced in Parliament, the mission goals announced and their importance explained. It will be the armour against any wanna be saboteurs.
I was about to suggest that the program be under PMO and classified. A black hole of sorts from the outside.

I think there are some facilities to get gong, perhaps bring them under "one roof". And, let the brains work.

I think it is doable. Need to overcome certain rigid social and gov structures.

JMT
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Jay »

NRao wrote:
I was about to suggest that the program be under PMO and classified. A black hole of sorts from the outside.
It need not even be classified, just make it a project of natl importance and prestige. IGMPDP was very instrumental in attracting a lot of talent into DRDO labs. We need something like this for a Jet engine.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

NRao wrote: <snip>
The US has a culture of risk. India does not. Lives and materials were lost to reach the moon. It has been posted on BR that a single LCA crash could have terminated the program.
...
...
Risk

Costs money

And, you have to throw money at the problem

The problem with China is that they want results quick, a problem the US/UK did not have. I am fairly confident IF the Chinese reduce their expectations they will get there sooner.
</snip>
And NRaoji, this is what I'd written in Jan'14 ...
...
...
But wait, before we start dishing out our advises, from our hindsight-is-20/20 vantage point, let’s try and think thru why would the GTRE folks not consider high-high risk of 1(a)2(a) approach.

Well, if you look at our national psyche of extremely naval-gazing, if-it’s-made-in-India-must-be-useless, pricing-of-tech-dev-in-terms-of-social-upliftment-missed-cost, 3-legged-cheetah-labelling-user-attitude etc. (Shivji will have a longer list), GTRE folks would be mortally scared of failures arising from such a high-risk endeavour.
Frankly, I’m not very sure if it mattered to the GTRE folks, if LCA flew or not, as long as they have met the Kaveri design parameters. So when the larger program, due to scope creep, necessitated a requirement growth of a next-gen powerplant, Kaveri in it’s present technological form is not even close to it.

Plus all this talk of new imported core etc means exactly that – a fully imported engine in terms of jet-engine tech, nothing more nothing else. :roll:

That’s the price to be paid for a pessimistic/stifling national outlook towards technological advancement with zero-tolerance towards failures and import at all cost attitude. :(
...
...
Nothing much has changed since then, well except maybe, a few slogans thrown in here and there ... :((
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Let's assume that all resources, however costly or even infrequently used, as it may be, are provided as demanded, along with unlimited funding as also desired.

Where are the human resources that can produce these much desired results and when will such an engine be delivered.

Just to be very clear, we are talking about a military grade fighter engine for a single engined fighter, with the characteristics of quality, reliability, extreme ruggedness, and dependability under combat conditions that such a "single" engine implies, promises and guarantees.

just look at the failure rates of such engines, barring of course, incidents like bird hits etc.

Govt labs have tried and failed for decades, snake oil salesmen and glib talkers have retired as "outstanding scientists" after each and every one them personally promised to make a difference and help to deliver the required engine.

BTW, there are also many also ran type diploma holders who have retired as "outstanding scientists" because of a "strong" union and "social" groupings. Many others, because of sifarish, have joined silently, kept mouth shut, promoted regularly because of "non controversial" nature and retired silently and are now quietly collecting a handsome index linked pension and making full use of the medical insurance at top corporate hospitals.

This is a common story that plays out regularly in all govt institutions and is the bane of our colonial past. When the govt mollycoddles you from "joining job---- to death", where is the incentive or even the need to excel. baba in govt job, beti and son in law also in govt job obtained via the old boy's network

when we have such a strong socialist/social burden to carry, something has to give and that something is invariably the product.

The least expectation of a soldier is that he will be given tools comparable to what the enemy has deployed before he is asked to go out there and risk his all. If not "same to same" then "very close" will also do but in any case, they do not have the luxury of questioning the authorities, once the orders to deploy are given.

we know what happened in 1962, under the watch of the great and benevolent neverwho, in all his cambridge educated wisdom and that greatly eroded the trust of the soldier in the so called establishment.

this egoistic clown got innocent, ill equipped, and ill supported troops wilfully massacred and also nepotistically appointed useless and professionally unqualified relatives to the topmost positions in the Army.

The soldier has fought for decades without ballistic helmets and BPJs, without a decent rifle, without cold weather clothing, and combat boots because the buffoon babooze just did not care. It is only now that some things are slowly starting to change for the better and hopefully it continues.

Every time the soldier asked for something, his voice was completely drowned out, mostly by his own superiors, dancing to the tune of some demented politicos with their avaricious sights firmly set on the elections just around the corner.

Even if Modi took over the project and did a regular lungi dance on rajpath every tuesday morning, the human resources that we have at present is just not up to it and the countries that have the technology will never part with it fully, pay them what you want.

If anyone has contact with some knowledgeable ISRO old timers, ask them how they struggled with their "vikas engines" and the hoops that they were made to jump through, even though they paid through their nose for the privilege of "licensed production"
The design was based on the licensed version of the Viking engine with the chemical pressurisation system. The early production Vikas engines used some imported French components which were later replaced by domestically produced equivalents.
today the vikas is a dependable, rugged and reliable engine and the goras are very afraid that we will do the same with their "jet engine technology"

They simply do not want another china to rise in their lifetimes and they have already learned their very bitter lessons after they all so foolishly and for so long, allowed the hans a free access to all their most secret technologies

They all will smile and play nice because of the size of your markets, resources, economics and also because of geopolitics in this increasingly dangerous world but they will not part with any of the vital stuff that you really need unless they see some permanent benefit for themselves in the medium to long term.

with ukraine breaking up, maybe, the govt should have been looking to attract gifted engineers and metallurgists et al from there to shore up deficiencies in our own programs. But local institutional politics will put paid to such thoughts and it will be resisted tooth and nail by "outstanding scientists"
Last edited by chetak on 26 May 2022 13:26, edited 1 time in total.
ks_sachin
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Chetakji,

Where does import pasand come into this?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ks_sachin wrote:Chetakji,

Where does import pasand come into this?
ks_sachin ji,

"import pasand" is among the alternate and otherwise possible and viable options, onlee due to non availability of timely of local solutions.

There are mandatorily required very senior DRDO reps with a strong voice who compulsorily sit in at the meetings when import approvals are asked/given. Such proposals reach there only after much discussion and vetting and each case is justified and paper trailed in writing with data that can be tracked and verified quickly, if the need arises.

Threats need to be countered in time and cannot wait for some allegedly tech savvy types to declare failure after some 4-5 years of continuously assuring the govt that the weapons/systems required yesterday will be made on time, suddenly turn around and say that it cannot be made unless foreign help or technology is made available.

As for "import pasand", nothing is being done "secretly" and behind closed doors. It is all decided by committees which have reps from all stake holders.

The myth of the avaricious jernails is over hyped. Enough of them have been cashiered without pension, apart from being jailed. Today it is an extremely risky proposition to even think of attempting such shenanigans.

More than the jernails, many babooze have also taken the hit and numerous have have been sacked too.

But to think that avarice is limited only to the uniformed is utter foolishness. Every lab, private company and PSU has well known bad apples whose bags are overflowing, either to give or to take.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

chetak wrote:Let's assume that all resources, however costly or even infrequently used, as it may be, are provided as demanded, along with unlimited funding as also desired.

Where are the human resources that can produce these much desired results and when will such an engine be delivered.
Chetak bhai,

A few items to unpack, many more will remained packed

The "human resources" you talk about is THE problem.

Combine that with foreigners-will-not-part-with, then there is no alternative for India but to invest.

The focus is on building a core group (handful) to collect data - ground-up. This is what takes time + money = risk.

In this scenario there is nothing called "when will it come". India needs data, so that they can design a proper engine (and not have to rely on someone else). Data will come as soon as research starts.

just look at the failure rates of such engines, barring of course, incidents like bird hits etc.
Do we have any data on this metric?
Govt labs have tried and failed for decades, snake oil salesmen and glib talkers have retired as "outstanding scientists" after each and every one them personally promised to make a difference and help to deliver the required engine.
Yeah, because, IMO, they did not go about collecting data ground-up. So, I suspect they have huge holes in their data/graphs.

But, they do have a very good engine out there - Kaveri is nothing to be ashamed about.
with ukraine breaking up, maybe, the govt should have been looking to attract gifted engineers and metallurgists et al from there to shore up deficiencies in our own programs. But local institutional politics will put paid to such thoughts and it will be resisted tooth and nail by "outstanding scientists"
Here I think things are working in India's favor. IMO the day is not far when they will tell India to take a hike. All the players in this game have one thing in common - they do not want India to be a pole in a multipolar world. And, India is bound to insist. Which I feel will result in some sort of disengagement in the military area. This should force India to either abandon her ambitions to be a power or circle the wagons.

JMT
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

NRao wrote:
chetak wrote:Let's assume that all resources, however costly or even infrequently used, as it may be, are provided as demanded, along with unlimited funding as also desired.

Where are the human resources that can produce these much desired results and when will such an engine be delivered.
Chetak bhai,

A few items to unpack, many more will remained packed

The "human resources" you talk about is THE problem.

Combine that with foreigners-will-not-part-with, then there is no alternative for India but to invest.

The focus is on building a core group (handful) to collect data - ground-up. This is what takes time + money = risk.

In this scenario there is nothing called "when will it come". India needs data, so that they can design a proper engine (and not have to rely on someone else). Data will come as soon as research starts.

just look at the failure rates of such engines, barring of course, incidents like bird hits etc.
Do we have any data on this metric?
Govt labs have tried and failed for decades, snake oil salesmen and glib talkers have retired as "outstanding scientists" after each and every one them personally promised to make a difference and help to deliver the required engine.
Yeah, because, IMO, they did not go about collecting data ground-up. So, I suspect they have huge holes in their data/graphs.

But, they do have a very good engine out there - Kaveri is nothing to be ashamed about.
with ukraine breaking up, maybe, the govt should have been looking to attract gifted engineers and metallurgists et al from there to shore up deficiencies in our own programs. But local institutional politics will put paid to such thoughts and it will be resisted tooth and nail by "outstanding scientists"
Here I think things are working in India's favor. IMO the day is not far when they will tell India to take a hike. All the players in this game have one thing in common - they do not want India to be a pole in a multipolar world. And, India is bound to insist. Which I feel will result in some sort of disengagement in the military area. This should force India to either abandon her ambitions to be a power or circle the wagons.

JMT
we should already be having legitimate access to data for the russki engines as well as the general electric F404 and F414 series

IMVVHO, India should circle the wagons.

They are all looking at trade deals with us so that they can grow faster with Indian money.

We should insist on getting our pound of flesh

And "human resources" will still be THE problem, the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to acknowledge or even talk about.
Last edited by chetak on 26 May 2022 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

chetak wrote:Let's assume that all resources, however costly or even infrequently used, as it may be, are provided as demanded, along with unlimited funding as also desired.

Where are the human resources that can produce these much desired results and when will such an engine be delivered.

Govt labs have tried and failed for decades, snake oil salesmen and glib talkers have retired as "outstanding scientists" after each and every one them personally promised to make a difference and help to deliver the required engine.

Even if Modi took over the project and did a regular lungi dance on rajpath every tuesday morning, the human resources that we have at present is just not up to it and the countries that have the technology will never part with it fully, pay them what you want.
Doesn't make any sense. Human resources are developed. It is this that is the true product of such developmental programs. These people transcend multiple generations of programs. That is why they're valuable.

How did we end up with a fighter? How did we end up with a radar? How did we end up with a vast array of missiles and bombs? Unless there is a program with money and support, how will programs be done at unis? How will professors and phds and grad students get to do all that work?

You expect all that to exist before a program is created and funded? Why? How?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by vera_k »

If we're to talk about human resources, it's possible they need to get some business managers. They were able to build an engine for the cruise missile and prototypes and initial versions of the marine and aero engines. So it should be possible to bring some products to market for other applications besides those needing the absolute state of the art. This can sustain teams who can be collecting data and building improved versions in the future.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

chetak wrote: we should already be having legitimate access to data for the russki engines as well as the general electric F404 and F414 series
Ah, our ancestors called it Maya Jal. This rabbit hole is a certain dead end.

The Russians allowed manufacture of their engines under (understandably) very restrictive clauses.

However, they did provide tech/data on HOW to build THEIR engine. Not the WHY.

So, IF India wants to improve - say - the efficiency of that engine, calls on an Indian engineer. that person can only guess how to achieve that end. Then needs to collect data, test it out in the lab, then on an engine, then in production. Doable. But, better to invest in an in-house ground-up data collection effort.

The goal here is to design, test, and manufacture your own engines. Not improve someone else's engine, right?



And, as far as the GE engines, are they even made in India? Doubt it

Furthermore, as part of DTTI, GE (not the state dept) declined to participate in "co-dev" India's fav term of an enhanced engine.
They are all looking at trade deals with us so that they can grow faster with Indian money.
Unrelated to "engines", but they ALL want to be the next East India Co.
We should insist on getting our pound of flesh
Engine data is out of bounds
And "human resources" will still be THE problem, the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to acknowledge or even talk about.
As long as IndianS do no invest in collecting data needed to design/test/build their own engine, Yes
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Prasad wrote:
chetak wrote:Let's assume that all resources, however costly or even infrequently used, as it may be, are provided as demanded, along with unlimited funding as also desired.

Where are the human resources that can produce these much desired results and when will such an engine be delivered.

Govt labs have tried and failed for decades, snake oil salesmen and glib talkers have retired as "outstanding scientists" after each and every one them personally promised to make a difference and help to deliver the required engine.

Even if Modi took over the project and did a regular lungi dance on rajpath every tuesday morning, the human resources that we have at present is just not up to it and the countries that have the technology will never part with it fully, pay them what you want.
Doesn't make any sense. Human resources are developed. It is this that is the true product of such developmental programs. These people transcend multiple generations of programs. That is why they're valuable.

How did we end up with a fighter? How did we end up with a radar? How did we end up with a vast array of missiles and bombs? Unless there is a program with money and support, how will programs be done at unis? How will professors and phds and grad students get to do all that work?

You expect all that to exist before a program is created and funded? Why? How?
saar ji

you are looking at small islands of excellence in a morass of mediocrity and missing the forest for the trees.

The engine program has existed for many decades now. where are the human resources that have been developed to address issues that have been known for many years now. Why have our academicians not pitched in to help out... IIT's/IISC/TIFR are not short of funds for their research work and if they need it, more funds will be made available. Labs have lost the trust of all govts because of their continued poor performance mainly due to uninspired leadership

Abdul kalam, apart from being an outstanding leader, was a politician first and scientist next. He knew how to get funds, provide tech savvy leadership, very much able convince the powers that be that he would deliver on time, and on budget, and he did so most of the time. He inspired trust because of his almost childlike humility and his frugal use of public resources, his openness and easy approachability by even class 4 employees who trusted him to solve their issues. Too bad that they don't make scientists like him anymore.

DAE and ISRO have done very well for themselves. If some can do world class work using the very same kaalu Indians, then why others can't ...

do you really think that India's military missiles just fell off the back of some hick truck.... or the warheads were fortuitously found growing on some coconut trees....

why did we take over two decades to make the most basic of drones.

what was a Rutan VariEze doing parked for many years in Bangalore, if not providing "inspiration"

we had more than ample time to get serious on the HR front but failed to capitalize on it. There is no university in India which has the specific HR verticals to consult or provide leadership or guidance on the design of a fighter engine.

Kaveri is fine but just too bad that it's not yet ready for the task for which it was envisaged. Maybe, one day soon, it will be.

until then, we need to seriously address the elephant in the room. It has been there far too long
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

vera_k wrote:If we're to talk about human resources, it's possible they need to get some business managers. They were able to build an engine for the cruise missile and prototypes and initial versions of the marine and aero engines. So it should be possible to bring some products to market for other applications besides those needing the absolute state of the art. This can sustain teams who can be collecting data and building improved versions in the future.
The marine version needs to grow substantially to show more potential.

In it's present form, it is very limited in scope

One immediate user could be the ICG, the Indian coast guard, which may benefit from a CODAG propulsion mode when running down escaping drug/weapon runners on the high seas
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

In aero engine tech we are lacking the following:

1. TANA: There ain't no alternate: this worked well for things like ISRO rockets, e.g. when Russia was squeezed about cryogenic technology, India created its own. Same thing happened for control law software on Tejas, we were denied and lo and behold India created its own. If there were no GE 404 or 414 then India would be forced to come up with its own engine, no matter what. That impetus is lacking today.

2. SME: subject matter experts in engine tech. We have to induct such people from the industry on a consulting basis. Just having PhD and GOI sarkari folks manning GTRE does not cut it. We need SMEs in every area and they are hard to come by. SME would understand issues faced and provide a plausible way out to solve them. All the IITs, NITs, engg colleges don't produce SMEs, they are paper shufflers for PhD thesis. One area to tap IITs, NITs is the graduating class and put them into innovation creation for bright ideas - I think IIT-M has an innovation lab and other engg colleges have such endeavors. Young minds approach problems very differently and give them access to an entire GTRE engine and tell them about a problem to solve and see what happens.

3. Proper funding Control of Projects: currently the Min of Defence babu like Defence Production controls such funding. Remove this and create R&D funding group in GOI with adequate funding (we are supposed to be 5T in a few yrs).
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

Sadly, the same points were written 20 years back ( which i remember reading on BRF) and i believe i will be reading the same points a decade from now but with no real change on the ground

At that time 2 decades back , there was a big ray of optimism and enthusiasm for at least an ¨almost there¨ Marine Kaveri and this time around, even that is dashed since that also turned out a dud after all the buildup provided about it and there doesn't seem to be any realistic future roadmap except hoping an praying for some magical ToT to help us build a super-duper engine ¨indigenously¨
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

sum wrote:Sadly, the same points were written 20 years back ( which i remember reading on BRF) and i believe i will be reading the same points a decade from now but with no real change on the ground

At that time 2 decades back , there was a big ray of optimism and enthusiasm for at least an ¨almost there¨ Marine Kaveri and this time around, even that is dashed since that also turned out a dud after all the buildup provided about it and there doesn't seem to be any realistic future roadmap except hoping an praying for some magical ToT to help us build a super-duper engine ¨indigenously¨
This is a niche area in which we don't seem to be capable of making any sort headway on our own....

If the same points were discussed twenty years ago, the underlying issues would have been known to every stakeholder starting from even before those times.

and yet we still find ourselves in same boat today.

It simply beggars understanding.

But now,
the ToT to help us build a super-duper engine ¨indigenously¨
is mired both in geopolitics and geo-economics, in an almost tech cartelized effort to contain, as well as, corral India.
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