Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Will
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 06 Nov 2017 22:52

Would certainly like to know more on the engine that is being developed with Rolls Royce. Think there are two programs going on . One with Snecma to fix the kaveri and the other with Rolls Royce that will power the AMCA. I think we are hedging our bets here since uncle is reluctant to share engine tech. Saurav Jha has mentioned that there are a couple of programs going on.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2017 00:04

Will wrote:Would certainly like to know more on the engine that is being developed with Rolls Royce. Think there are two programs going on . One with Snecma to fix the kaveri and the other with Rolls Royce that will power the AMCA. I think we are hedging our bets here since uncle is reluctant to share engine tech. Saurav Jha has mentioned that there are a couple of programs going on.


I think that was DDM. I think DRDO is talking to everyone for possible JV. Someone just blew one such talk out of proportion.

One program for making flightworthy Kaveri and a dry version for Ghatak is pending approval. All other things are just half-baked proposal or vaporware.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cybaru » 07 Nov 2017 05:22

arvin wrote:Borrow 1 747 from Air India and convert into flying test bed. This single act will wipe off all bad karma of Air India and help it attain moksh.


Yep,

Instead of waiting on 1l-76 bird. Get a western plane and get it up and running ourselves. Do the mod ourselves. I think we can do this. If you want it cheap, find a 5 year old 747-200 with 30% of life left. It should serve us well for next 20-30 years.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/rolls-royc ... w-test-bed

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2017 12:23

Cybaru wrote:
arvin wrote:Borrow 1 747 from Air India and convert into flying test bed. This single act will wipe off all bad karma of Air India and help it attain moksh.


Yep,

Instead of waiting on 1l-76 bird. Get a western plane and get it up and running ourselves. Do the mod ourselves. I think we can do this. If you want it cheap, find a 5 year old 747-200 with 30% of life left. It should serve us well for next 20-30 years.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/rolls-royc ... w-test-bed


After 5yrs, it would have barely used 25% of its life. Even a 20yr old aircraft is sufficient for this purpose. And will be damn cheap.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby abhik » 07 Nov 2017 19:58

IIRC the US flying anti ballistic missile laser used an ex Air India 747.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby viveks » 07 Nov 2017 21:56

After all these yrs...I guess this is a dead project. Just an exhibition of an un-workable idea.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gyan » 07 Nov 2017 22:39

Or an old 4 ENGINED Airbus 330? Ask German help to modify it as engine test platform

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cybaru » 08 Nov 2017 00:44

If we are going to have a class of engines like Kaveri-Ghatak, Kaveri88,100,120,144 we better get our own test bed. Otherwise it is not going to be possible to go to russia for every test. Maybe it makes sense to work with both RR and Safran for multi engine lines. (Sorry NRao, I added RR to the mix also!-Maybe I want both of them to become rich off our backs! :) )

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 08 Nov 2017 11:21

Alright. Some snippets related to Aero Engines from Parliamentary Committee report on defense.

The Committee had recommended as under: -
'The Committee desire that infrastructure to test aero-engines should also be
created within the country so that flying testing of engines can be done in a timely
manner without carrying the engine to a foreign country and finding availability of
slot testing agency etc.'

MoD response:
1 'The design improvement and validation of aero engine components and
modules through testing is a continuous activity to enhance and
demonstrate engine performance and reliability. At present, only limited
aerodynamic and structural testing can be conducted within the country.
Hence, the required component testing facilities at an estimated cost of
Rs.1330 crore are planned to be established by DRDO at Rajanakunte,
Bengaluru for development of Ghatak engine and all future generation aero
engines.

2 The existing Fan & Compressor Test Facility at Gas Turbine Research
Establishment (GTRE) has inadequate capacity and has become obsolete.
To carry out testing of Fan & Compressor for existing and future generation
gas turbine engine programmes of GTRE, it is essential to have a dedicated
Fan & Compressor test facility at GTRE. GTRE is working out the budgetary
cost of this facility to be established ‘on turnkey basis’ with an objective to
initiate EPC approval by end of Oct 2016.

3 DRDO is planning to establish a twin test cell at GTRE to carry out the
performance testing of gas turbine engines upto 130 kN thrust class. The
proposed engine test cells will cater for performance and endurance test
requirements of the present and future engines. One of the test cell will
have the capability of testing engine with thrust vector nozzle. The cost of
establishing this test cell (including the building) is estimated to be Rs.300
crore. GTRE has published a Global RFI for setting up of twin test cell in
July. Response to RFI is expected by end Aug 2016.

4 Boeing Inc. USA has offered to establish a High Altitude Engine Test Facility
(HAETF) of 90kN capacity in India for testing Gas turbine engine as an
offset obligation in C17 Globemaster Acquisition Programme of MoD. US
Government is requested to issue necessary approval (licence), when M/s.
Boeing submits Technical Assistance Agreement (TAA) for HAETF, as
Boeing needs to complete the offset credits against the subject programme.
For this purpose, DRDO has acquired 100 acres of land at NagarjunaSagar,
Telangana.

5 DRDO is studying the indigenous Flying Test Bed (FTB) requirements, for
which a Joint Committee consisting of members from DRDO, IAF, HAL and
DGAQA will be constituted.'


During the course of deliberations, the Committee expressed apprehension over
the perennial delay in the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine to meet the
requirement of LCA which was sanctioned way back in 1989. The Committee was
informed by the Defence Secretary that a total amount of Rs. 2100 crore had been spent
on this Project till date.
{out of 28xxCr Sanctioned} The Committee was also apprised by the representatives of
DRDO of the current status of the Project and the fact that solutions were being evolved
with support of some experts within the country as well as outside for the completion of
this project


About the second project proposal with new funding that we have known for quite a while now. Its not clear if PMO/CCS havs approved the project or not. I think its still pending.
Kaveri Engine Development Project completed two important milestones i.e. altitude
testing and Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials during the year 2009-10 and 2010-11
respectively. As on date, a total of 2687 hours of engine testing have been completed
since inception of the project (1989).
{I have seen slightly higher number elsewhere} The project technical activities are continuing
with the approval of Hon’ble RM within project cost ceiling of Rs 2105 crore.

Subsequent to the deployment of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) ‘Tejas’ with General
Electric (GE) engines, DRDO decided to power an Indian Unmanned Combat Air
Vehicle (UCAV) ‘Ghatak’ with Kaveri ‘dry’ engine (without afterburner system) at an
estimated cost of Rs. 2652 crore and PDC of 84 months from project sanction.
Accordingly, DRDO submitted a project proposal. The Hon’bleRakshaMantri and
Ministry of Finance approved the proposal. The same was submitted to the Office of
the Prime Minister (PMO), prior to consideration of Cabinet Committee of Security
(CCS).

The Office of Prime Minister (PMO) constituted an Independent Committee, consisting
of Dr. R. Chidambaram (Principal Scientific Advisor), Dr. V. K. Saraswat (Member, NITI
Ayog) and Dr. K. Radhakrishnan (Former Secretary, Department of Space) to review
the project proposal on the feasibility and desirability of the Ghatak aircraft and engine
programmes. The Report of this Committee has been submitted to the PMO for
approval prior to submission to CCS. The Committee recommended ‘in-principle’
approval of UCAV ‘Ghatak’ development programme and immediate sanction of
Ghatak (Kaveri ‘dry’) engine project with PDC of 84 months from sanction at a project
cost of Rs.2652 crore.

This project proposal contains two segments, the first segment being the development
of Kaveri engine flight demonstration with Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials in IL-76 aircraft
and the second segment for the development of Kaveri ‘dry’ engine for powering
UCAV ‘Ghatak’. In order to meet this challenging task of aero engine development,
DRDO has proposed to seek assistance from world’s reputed engine houses for joint
development.


Note that though the report is from 2017, the replies by MoD contain status as of late 2015 or early 2016, it seems.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 08 Nov 2017 22:49

Pratyush wrote:Wake me up when kaveri flies. I have given up on it. We seem quite content to plod on but never reach a destination. Since 2008 when kaveri was delinked from LCA and to 2017. No major progress has been made in domestic engine. I guess I should be happy with the fact that GTRE was also starved of funds and resources it needed to get the job done.

But just get the dammit thing in the air use one of the first prototypes of lca if we must. But mere it fly.


Unless there is a national project for engines just like the IGDMP, dont think we are going to get anywhere with propulsion. The Chinese are investing billions in just jet engines. What are we investing? "Peanuts"! Today India is able to develop most missiles. All thanks to the IGDMP. It was a steep learning curve with a lot of setbacks . But thats how R&D works . For every success there will be a hundred failures. There should be a similar national program for propulsion systems. Lets try and make a list of what is needed. A start below. Add as you see fit.

1) A 90+ kn jet engine
2) A 130 kn jet engine
3)A jet engine for civilian aircraft
4) An engine for tanks
5) Propulsion systems for ships- Destroyers/Frigates/Corvettes
6)Propulsion systems for submarines
6) Scramjets
7) Ramjets
8 ) Nuclear propulsion system for aircraft carriers

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 09 Nov 2017 16:13

From this document:

http://pib.nic.in/archieve/others/2008/ ... 042813.pdf

Report of Standing Committee on Defense from 2008. Interesting snippet from this:

Query:
The Committee note that the Ministry have
admitted during oral evidence that the country
does not have an industrial base for engine
design and also that it takes 15 to 20 years for a
Chief designer to take up the development of an
engine, which is reflective of very slow state of
affair of R&D activities in the country. The
Committee also note the roadmap for engine
development in the country i.e. counting the
indigenous development activities with national
funding as also joining hand with international
design houses as co-development partners. The
Committee strongly feels that the aircraft
industry in the country till date has not made
much progress in engine design and
development so far. The committee further find
it contradictory to note that the capacity
utilisation of the company in engines
development is near to 100 percent over the
past few years which shows that the utilisation
of the capacity is related to only those engines
which are being built under Transfer of
Technology (ToT) from abroad. The Committee
feel that even after spending about 20 years and
a lot of money much needs to be done for
designing an engine. The committee desire that
the matter should be examined and immediate
correction steps be taken

Ans:
Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) was
founded in 1965 to take up the design and
development of aero-engine. Government has
sanctioned the project to develop Kaveri engine for
LCA” to GTRE. While the engine is developed and
prototypes are undergoing test bed evaluation, it is
seen that there are certain shortfalls in its
performance. GTRE is making efforts to resolve the
issues through technical consultancy with an
experienced foreign engine design house.
Subsequent to the formation of GTRE, engine
design in HAL was restricted to design and
development of small engines for PTA, subsystems
of engine, engine starters and engine test beds.
All
these programs are being successfully completed
and implemented.
However, to meet the aircraft requirement, HAL has
been manufacturing engines under licence utilising
its full capacity. During the process of manufacture
and overhaul of these engines, HAL has built up
sufficient knowledge of the performance of the
engines and their systems.
DRDO has noted that the Joint development and
manufacture proposed for Kaveri will be comprised
of management and execution team comprising
HAL, GTRE, and an International partner and is a
major step in the direction indicated by the Action
Taken Report. Further organizational structure will
be derived from this effort.


Very idiotic decision, whoever might have enforced that. Seems its no longer in place, as HAL is making HTFE/HTSE (perhaps the result of Navratna status to HAL in 2007 which gave HAL limited autonomy..?? ). But not sure if HAL still has some kind of restriction on going for an engine which will overlap Kaveri.

OK, the answer is in next part.

Query:
The Committee feel that achieving self
sufficiency in engine development is an
imperative need and for that a robust industrial
base for engine design needs to be created so as
to overcome the dependence on foreign supplier
and address the requirements of the Armed
Forces. The Committee also desire that HAL
should explore the possibility of entering into
the joint venture/ collaboration with indigenous
private companies / foreign companies which
have proven competence and capability in
design and development of Aircraft engines so
that indigenous engines are available to power
the aircraft built by HAL
. The committee would
like to be apprised of the progress made by the
HAL in this regard.

Ans:
As recommended by the Committee there is a need
to develop a robust industrial base for engine design
and production. A formal working arrangement
between HAL and GTRE could be established to
synergise the design capabilities of GTRE and
production & maintenance capabilities of HAL.
As per DRDO, the Action Taken through the
proposed joint venture for Kaveri intended to
establish a strong design and development base.
There is currently no market for a smaller engine
since HAL has already contracted for the IJT.
However, HAL’s view is that the Complete
development of a smaller engine than Kaveri could
be initiated with Government funding for mastering
the engine design and development technology
base in the country. Subsequently, transition to
design and development of larger engines could be
made easily with the design and technology base
developed.
Further, to meet the aircraft requirement, HAL has
been manufacturing engines under license utilising
its full capacity. During the process of manufacture
and overhaul of these engines, HAL has built up
sufficient knowledge of the performance of the
engines and their systems.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JTull » 09 Nov 2017 16:54

It seems there are more people sitting on audit and review committees moaning about lack of progress than those that are developing the tech. Perfect opportunity for disrupters if it were not for the long lead-times.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Nov 2017 21:13

See MoD diagnosis of GTRE looks to be they need more oversight.

I disagree.

They need more resources and fixed milestones to achieve progress.

Putting all those committees with same tired old people will be the "Men working, Men watching!' syndrome.

The very same committees are responsible for themes in not providing adequate resources or guidance.

What does a Nuclear Physicist have to do with Gas Turbine review?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 09 Nov 2017 22:41

ramana wrote:See MoD diagnosis of GTRE looks to be they need more oversight.

I disagree.

They need more resources and fixed milestones to achieve progress.

Putting all those committees with same tired old people will be the "Men working, Men watching!' syndrome.

The very same committees are responsible for themes in not providing adequate resources or guidance.

What does a Nuclear Physicist have to do with Gas Turbine review?


Better than brainwashed History grad babus no..?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2017 04:30

While our experts sit with one thumb up musharraf declaring how idiotic it is to suggest such difficult things as resizing an aircraft design to suit an available engine, etc, the cheen have got the F-136 lock stock and barrel, probably bought GE as well (sorry url not seen, came direct via Silk Route to Ulan Bator)

General Electric Signs $3.5 Billion In Aviation, Engine Deals With China.
Reuters (11/9) reports that General Electric “signed three aviation and engine deals with Chinese partners worth a total of $3.5 billion” during President Donald Trump’s state visit to Beijing. The deals include a $1.4 billion GEnx-1B “engine and repair deal” for Juneyao Airlines; a $1.1 billion order “for 80 Leap-1B engines to power 40 Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft” for a leasing arm of ICBC Leasing, “the leasing arm of state bank Industrial and Commercial Bank of China”; and a $1 billion agreement to supply China Datang Group with gas turbines “and other components for Chinese domestic projects.”


U can bet that the "other components for cheen domestic projects" is the entire F-136 project.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 11 Nov 2017 10:13

UlanBatori wrote:While our experts sit with one thumb up musharraf declaring how idiotic it is to suggest such difficult things as resizing an aircraft design to suit an available engine, etc, the cheen have got the F-136 lock stock and barrel, probably bought GE as well (sorry url not seen, came direct via Silk Route to Ulan Bator)

General Electric Signs $3.5 Billion In Aviation, Engine Deals With China.
Reuters (11/9) reports that General Electric “signed three aviation and engine deals with Chinese partners worth a total of $3.5 billion” during President Donald Trump’s state visit to Beijing. The deals include a $1.4 billion GEnx-1B “engine and repair deal” for Juneyao Airlines; a $1.1 billion order “for 80 Leap-1B engines to power 40 Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft” for a leasing arm of ICBC Leasing, “the leasing arm of state bank Industrial and Commercial Bank of China”; and a $1 billion agreement to supply China Datang Group with gas turbines “and other components for Chinese domestic projects.”


U can bet that the "other components for cheen domestic projects" is the entire F-136 project.


Thanks to google, its 15sec job to find link. But another link from GE about the same.

https://www.ge.com/reports/ge-partners- ... als-china/
In addition to the aviation deals, GE signed a $1 billion agreement with China Datang Group to supply the power company with gas turbines and other components for domestic projects. The deal sets the stage for future joint projects and helps China with its initiative to generate cleaner and more efficient power.

China Datang is a power company. So those other things are power GT.

Some more details
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&sourc ... Ax5mZ7gB4C
GE and China Datang Group (CDT) signed a framework agreement for energy partnership, setting the stage for future joint projects and commercial deals. Under the agreement, GE will supply CDT with gas turbines, gas turbine components, and steam turbine components as well as services and IoT solutions for Chinese domestic projects. The proposed projects are valued in total at approximately US$1 billion. [Witnessed by Secretary Ross and Vice Premier Wang Yang]

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2017 17:59

China Datang is a power company. So those other things are power GT.

It's part of a package deal on aircraft engines. You did expect them to come out and say that it's the F-136 tech that is being transferred and that the transfer is directly to the Led China Miritaly Industlies, since they are so open and honest?

Another 2 seconds of Google:

China Datang Corporation (CDT) is one of the five large-scaled power generation enterprises in the People's Republic of China, established on the basis of former State Power Corporation of China in 2002. It is a solely state-owned enterprise directly managed by the CPC Central Committee and is the experimental state-authorized investment and state shareholding enterprise ratified by the State Council of the People's Republic of China.


Datang is a company listed on the stock exchange. A GE-Datang deal purely on power generation turbines would not need to make news at all in connection with aircraft gas turbines. So why is this in the same article? Because this is straight "offset" spending in china on tech transfer, to make the aircraft deal go through. Elsewhere, see about China buying 300 Boeing aircraft. GE either had to make the deal or lose the engines to the Europeans, and that would be that for GE, already under severe pressure this year.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 11 Nov 2017 18:31

^^^ If it was the F136, GE would be risking a blacklist by the US government for future contracts. No, unlikely to be the F136 or any mil emgine for that matter.

But that said, the civilian engines sent to cheen are more than enough to pass on tech. The WS-10 powering their Flanker knockoffs was RE’ed from the CFM56 for their MD DC-8 line in Shanghai during the 1980s. The GenX and Leap tech are undoubtedly contributing to their next engines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2017 23:06

I think ITAR is being tossed out the window when it comes to PeeAllSee. Here is an example: (UBCN CT division):

US Havaii Fauj jarnail (bypassing R&D grant structure) gives $8M grant to a (cheen-pasand) brophejar-administrator in a university. Objective is to develop & commercialize (short-term) a snake-oil "fix" to whatever makes raakit injuns shake, rattle and break. Project is of course ITAR.
Brophejar in question has only cheen ishtudantz. So hires a 400% Yoo-Ess ishtudant who was fired by another Broph for not doing any work, as the miraculous American "front" to explain how the project got done. Probably couldn't even figure out how to wipe his own (never mind).


(Mis)uses his admin position to give State funding to his cheen ishstudantz, who then do **all** the work on the project. To spend the project money, they put other administrators etc to "charge" the project and spend the $8m.
The State funds intended to pay said admins' salaries, goes to fund the cheen ishstudantz.
Question: Who actually benefited from the $M? Answer: the ITAR-controlled tech went straight to PeeAllSee via the cheen ishstudantz. Brophejar becomes Phellow of cheen Aca-dummy of Science. All happy.

Don't know if Jarnail was also in pay of cheen, or just plain stupid.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby darshhan » 11 Nov 2017 23:46

JTull wrote:It seems there are more people sitting on audit and review committees moaning about lack of progress than those that are developing the tech. Perfect opportunity for disrupters if it were not for the long lead-times.


Very true. Preaching gyan without responsibility of any performance whatsoever is the easiest path.

Agencies like CVC, CAG and internal audit departments are double edged swords. When a corrupt regime like UPA is in power, they help to check the loot or atleast ensure the paper trail of the loot and hence are assets. But when a honest leader like Namo is heading the affairs, the same agencies become a liability.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 12 Nov 2017 12:49

UlanBatori wrote:
China Datang is a power company. So those other things are power GT.

It's part of a package deal on aircraft engines. You did expect them to come out and say that it's the F-136 tech that is being transferred and that the transfer is directly to the Led China Miritaly Industlies, since they are so open and honest?

Another 2 seconds of Google:

China Datang Corporation (CDT) is one of the five large-scaled power generation enterprises in the People's Republic of China, established on the basis of former State Power Corporation of China in 2002. It is a solely state-owned enterprise directly managed by the CPC Central Committee and is the experimental state-authorized investment and state shareholding enterprise ratified by the State Council of the People's Republic of China.


Datang is a company listed on the stock exchange. A GE-Datang deal purely on power generation turbines would not need to make news at all in connection with aircraft gas turbines. So why is this in the same article? Because this is straight "offset" spending in china on tech transfer, to make the aircraft deal go through. Elsewhere, see about China buying 300 Boeing aircraft. GE either had to make the deal or lose the engines to the Europeans, and that would be that for GE, already under severe pressure this year.


1. That company being owned by Chinese govt doesnt say much, because every other company in China is owned by Chinese government. Thats why even selling normal civilian stuff is a bad idea to Chinese. But the western companies only see the huge aviation market. They know if they don't sell China will anyway get the tech by hook or crook, might as well sell some stuff and make money out of it. Just like men think with their dick Uncle Sam thinks with its corporations/profits. As Chola said, even with sell of GEnX, Chinese are getting hand on some state-of-the-art stuff. Enough to boost their tech by at least a generation if they can copy it even without US help.

2. To be frank the reason I see that sale of Power GT is clubbed with aviation sell it because it looks like the deals were signed in one sitting and GE reported all of them together as from business perspective all that matters is money numbers. And I linked the PDF sowing that not only these but a bunch of other deals were signed in single shot when US corporate delegation went to China recently (with the Golden Monkey I suppose). So naturally all the deals signed in that event were published together. Other media reports simply copy-pasted official release. So seeing power GT deal along with Aviation GT says nothing at all IMHO. Can't say its a package deal.

3. I do not expect uncle sam to be "open and honest" at all. With all the dirty game they have been playing for last 70-80yrs, no sane person would. And precisely for that I would expect them not to publicise such deal of passing state-of-the-art engine tech at all. Not under Power GT deal. Even if it was so, not by publishing about it. Frankly I would expect a couple of mis-named containers full of blue prints and a couple of prototypes of F136 being sent from some ghost company to another ghost company in China. No one would notice a couple of such containers among the millions that pass through between these two business partners. Neither China has to pay for it in trackable money trail. The compensation could be geo-political support or some other kind of unrelated deal, worth much more than a billion dollars.

4. China is known to have done a lot of high-profile espionage, and I do not believe without tacit support from Uncle Sam or by at least turning a blind eye towards it. No disagreement on it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 12 Nov 2017 12:55

chola wrote:^^^ If it was the F136, GE would be risking a blacklist by the US government for future contracts. No, unlikely to be the F136 or any mil emgine for that matter.

But that said, the civilian engines sent to cheen are more than enough to pass on tech. The WS-10 powering their Flanker knockoffs was RE’ed from the CFM56 for their MD DC-8 line in Shanghai during the 1980s. The GenX and Leap tech are undoubtedly contributing to their next engines.


If GE sends F136 tech to China, it will be on nod by Uncle Sam. In fact I would not be surprized to see GE being unwilling to give away its hard work and is actually forced by USG to do so.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Nov 2017 17:43

wow!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby brar_w » 12 Nov 2017 17:47

Love the infatuation with the F136 :)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 12 Nov 2017 17:57

JayS wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ If it was the F136, GE would be risking a blacklist by the US government for future contracts. No, unlikely to be the F136 or any mil emgine for that matter.

But that said, the civilian engines sent to cheen are more than enough to pass on tech. The WS-10 powering their Flanker knockoffs was RE’ed from the CFM56 for their MD DC-8 line in Shanghai during the 1980s. The GenX and Leap tech are undoubtedly contributing to their next engines.


If GE sends F136 tech to China, it will be on nod by Uncle Sam. In fact I would not be surprized to see GE being unwilling to give away its hard work and is actually forced by USG to do so.


Knowing the heavy involvement of the US Fortune 500 (including GE) in Cheen, anything is possible. But US government directives on embargoes related to mil tech are real and punishing when caught. People forget that LM made a killing in the chini satellite business until ITAR clobbered it because LM made the mistake of correcting the lizards’ launch failures in sending up Amreeki satellites.

After ITAR, America lost the chini satellite market (while PRC lost the US and Euro launch markets) and companies like LM were fined millions.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Nov 2017 18:01

Brarji, point is that cheen is making a heavy investment in modern engine tech from GE as offset for the 300 Boeing plane purchases. India buys turbines for power gen from cheen so that when the PLA comes over they won't have trouble reading manuals to operate their machines: I doubt if a lot of GE power-gen tech is needed for cheen unless GE is shifting their power-gen production to cheen.
Maybe I am wrong, it's actually the F-14x engine tech, but we are almost not allowed to mention that, right?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 12 Nov 2017 18:11

brar_w wrote:Love the infatuation with the F136 :)

I agree.. :D

chola wrote:
JayS wrote:
If GE sends F136 tech to China, it will be on nod by Uncle Sam. In fact I would not be surprized to see GE being unwilling to give away its hard work and is actually forced by USG to do so.


Knowing the heavy involvement of the US Fortune 500 (including GE) in Cheen, anything is possible. But US government directives on embargoes related to mil tech are real and punishing when caught. People forget that LM made a killing in the chini satellite business until ITAR clobbered it because LM made the mistake of correcting the lizards’ launch failures in sending up Amreeki satellites.

After ITAR, America lost the chini satellite market (while PRC lost the US and Euro launch markets) and companies like LM were fined millions.


Also Not too long ago PW was fined for trying to sell heli engines to China. Its not that easy to blatantly send technology to China if Uncle Sam is really watching.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 12 Nov 2017 18:23

There is little doubt that the US must get their policies right. The projected chini civilian aircraft market is $1.1 TRILLION (half of our entire damned GDP) and both airframes and engines must come from either US or EU. Losing the majority of it to Airbus and RR/SNECMA means the eclipsing of the US industry. In stark business term, you simply cannot lose that market and stay globally competitive. So the leverage that Cheen wields will eventually lead to ToT in the civil side to get around ITAR. And Cheen is smart enough to not get its US F500 partners like GE in trouble even as it blackmails them with market access.

The real threat to us as Bharatis is the continuous transfers of the GenX, the LEAP-1C, Rockwell avionics, etc. all duel use to Cheen.

The danger is there even if these transfers never reach the PLA because each addition advances their industrial base and as I written in other threads we are in a new world where open warfare is not the immediate or even the worst danger. It is the chini MIC ability to flood gray zones with unmatched numbers of ships, aircraft, artificial island and infrastructure.

We need to leverage our own market in the same way to build a MIC that can compete.

http://wap.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/chinese-airline-signs-usd-1-4-bn-engine-deal-with-ge-117111200269_1.html

According to Boeing's latest market outlook, China is expected to need 7,240 new aircraft over the next 20 years, valued at nearly USD 1.1 trillion.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 12 Nov 2017 19:37

Does anyone hear the Chinese arguing that all these imports and agreements with the US will kill their domestic industry?

No wait. Don't tell me. I know. China is different. We have Jaichands and import pasand armed forces and baboos. Our psychology is different.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Zynda » 12 Nov 2017 19:47

I had posted this article on Civil Aviation Thread few months ago.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3986&start=3840#p2166166

Longer term, there is the question of technology transfer, and the extent to which Airbus is helping to create a rival by supporting Chinese aerospace development.

Here, current thinking seems to be that China is too large a market to ignore, and that some knowledge transfer is the price of access. Boeing is also constructing a completion and delivery centre, for the 737, in China.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 12 Nov 2017 19:52

Zynda wrote:I had posted this article on Civil Aviation Thread few months ago.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3986&start=3840#p2166166

Longer term, there is the question of technology transfer, and the extent to which Airbus is helping to create a rival by supporting Chinese aerospace development.

Here, current thinking seems to be that China is too large a market to ignore, and that some knowledge transfer is the price of access. Boeing is also constructing a completion and delivery centre, for the 737, in China.

Never mind what Airbus and Boeing say. Indian on BRF are saying that imports are aimed only at killing domestic industry. Things like size of market, very big in India too are not even considered. The list of arguments about why we are failing or destined to fail is long. Why should we on BRF complain that the IAF is against LCA. We are equally good at predicting our own failure. Sorry. OT

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 12 Nov 2017 19:57

^^^
The devil is in the details ;)

While China imports some of its defense wares, they are also the third largest defense exporter. They are funding multiple lines of aerospace designs when India has a hard time just to support one design. If you look at their portfolio, they are pretty much making everything from tanks, armored vehicles, rifles, missiles, guns, helicopters, fighters, transport aircrafts, ships, submarines, and even recently 168 capacity civilian aircraft (Comac C919).

Recent figures stated that 30% of Chinese defense imports were for fighter aero engines. They are not too far from fielding their own WS-10 and other engines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 12 Nov 2017 20:01

srai wrote:^^^
The devil is in the details ;)

While China imports some of its defense wares, they are also the third largest defense exporter. They are funding multiple lines of aerospace designs when India has a hard time just to support one design. If you look at their portfolio, they are pretty much making everything from tanks, armored vehicles, rifles, missiles, guns, helicopters, fighters, transport aircrafts, ships, submarines, and even recently 168 capacity civilian aircraft (Comac C919).

How is this different from what I summarized as our favourite excuse in 3 words
Our psychology is different.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 12 Nov 2017 20:06

Ok. Our psychology are different then ;)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 12 Nov 2017 20:09

srai wrote:Ok. Our psychology are different then ;)

Yes and with that excuse we can say anything that passes as "analysis". That is what I was trying to point out.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Zynda » 12 Nov 2017 20:38


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 13 Nov 2017 08:08


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Nov 2017 20:34

shiv wrote:Does anyone hear the Chinese arguing that all these imports and agreements with the US will kill their domestic industry? No wait. Don't tell me. I know. China is different.


They also have enough surplus from handbag sales in the US to afford to buy 300 Boeings, probably using Treasury Bonds. :mrgreen: No need to mortgage the best beer company in the country to do that.
U may not have noticed the Bojitive Neuj about 3 U. California Los Angeles basketball students being arrested in cheen.
They had apparently acquired Luis Vuitton handbags from a Cheen dept. store. (obviously to impress someone else, I don't know of any (men's team) basketball stars carrying ladies' purses. Earrings, OK)
Remember Indian opening batsman getting arrested for having a pair of socks at the bottom of his shopping bag as he left Harrods London? These days Americans get caught for shoplifting in cheen, where Luis Vuitton purses are manufactured both "designer" and "copier".
Also, when cheen buys Su-30s or B-787s, that does not put the domestic "R&D" out of bijnej, in fact it funds the PhotoShop industry. When desh gets to this level, imports will be fine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2017 23:17

Folks how is all the above related to kaveri aero-engine?

Focus please.

Meanwhile DRDO page on Kaveri. No updates. :(

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/in ... ri-new.jsp

Kaveri


Kaveri Engine is a technologically complex and vital system for the LCA as well as its future variants. It incorporates state-of-the-art technologies and provides the required thrust for indigenous competence in this critical area.

With three decades of rich experience in the field of aerogas turbine engines. DRDO has designed and developed the contemporary high performance bypass military engine christened as Kaveri. Four prototypes of Kaveri engine and two prototypes of Kabini engine (Kaveri core) have been assembled and are undergoing extensive ground testing. Kaveri engine is a two-spool bypass turbofan engine having three stages of transonic low pressure compressor driven by a single-stage low pressure turbine. The core engine consists of six-stage transonic compressor driven by single-stage cooled high pressure turbine. The engine is provided with a compact annular combustor with airblast atomisers. The aerothermodynamic and mechanical designs of engine components have been evolved using many in-house and commercially developed software for solid and fluid mechanics

Kaveri three-stage transonic fan, designed for good stall margin and bird strike capability, handles an air mass flow of 78 kg/s and develops a pressure Combustion Chamber Liner ratio of 3.4. The six-stage variable capacity transonic compressor of Kaveri develops a pressure ratio of 6.4. The variable schedule of inlet guide vanes and two rows of stator is through FADEC control system to open the stator blades in a predetermined manner. High intensity low UD ratio annular combustor of Kaveri engine incorporates air blast injection of fuel for uniform outlet temperature profile and reduced carbon emission.



Kaveri Engine - The Power Plant for LCA

Kaveri high pressure turbine is provided with an efficient cooling design incorporating augmented convection-cum-film cooling for the vanes and combination cooling for the rotor blade to handle up to 1700 K turbine entry temperature. Kabini engine comprising high pressure compressor, combustor and high pressure turbine has undergone high altitude test at facilities abroad successfully demonstrating the flat rating concept of Kaveri engine assembly and in particular the combustor high altitude ignition and stability performances.

Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for Indian environment. The engine is a variable cycle-flat-rated engine in which the thrust drop due to high ambient, forward speed is well compensated by the increased turbine entry temperature at the spool Kabini altitude test speed. This concept has been already demonstrated with high temperature and pressure condition in DRDO's High Mach Facility. Kaveri engine is controlled by Kaveri full authority digital control unit {KADECU), which has been developed and successfully demonstrated at DRDO's test bed.


Kaveri-Special Characteristics

Air-mass flow : 78 kg/s By-pass ratio : 0.16 Overall pressure ratio : 21.5
Turbine entry temperature : 1487-1700 K

Maximum dry thrust : 52 kN (5302 kg)
Maximum dry SFC : 0.78 kg/hr/kg

After burner maximum power thrust : 81 kN (8260 kg)
After burner maximum power SFC : 2.03 kg/hr/kg

Thrust-to-weight ratio : 7.8
Application : Indian LCA


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rakesh » 04 Dec 2017 09:29

There has been a lot of discussion on BRF on the Defense Technology & Trade Initiative (DTTI) between India and the United States, specifically two joint working groups - the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) and the Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology (JWGACT). Offical US Govt page on DTTI --> https://www.acq.osd.mil/ic/DTTI.html

There is movement on JWGACT with US Naval personnel recently visiting INS Vikramaditya --> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/926427070074257410

However JETJWG is moving slowly. The argument put forth by the import lobby is that the American SEF (i.e. F-Solah) is India's down payment for Americans to give us access ( :lol: ) to jet engine technology. If that line of thinking is adopted and India buys the F-16, would the Americans really transfer that "part" (i.e. hot engine) of the tech to India? Evidence states otherwise.

Assessing US-India Defense Relations: The Technological Handshake
https://thediplomat.com/2016/10/assessi ... handshake/

Outside the DTTI, India and the United States have established two important new initiatives to collaborate on advanced technology. Both the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) and the Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology (JWGACT) were proposed by Delhi and were initially considered by many Washington insiders to be non-starters.

Secretary Carter disagreed, and the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) held its first meeting in India in December 2015. Pentagon insiders say the JETJWG has to date been hobbled by India’s insistence on full tech-transfer of advanced jet engines but that Washington has proposed a way forward that is “instructive, informative, and productive.” In fact, Washington recently amended its policy guidelines on military jet engine tech-transfer to put India on par with NATO allies, though even that falls short of full transfer of advanced jet engine tech. Like India’s perennial interest in U.S. nuclear submarine technology, that is likely to remain a non-starter for the foreseeable future.

So what is this way forward that is 1) instructive; 2) informative; and 3) productive?

In a second (?) meeting, held a year later in December 2016, the JETJWG arrived at this stage --->

Indo-US Joint Working Group on jet engine meets
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ar ... aign=cppst

However, sources said that India, which has not been able to get requisite power from its indigenous Kaveri engine for fighter aircraft, is seeking "hot engine" technology which the US considers as the crown jewel in the jet engine technology. The sources said that the US is willing to help with the "cold engine" technology. The new engine is likely to be for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) which is a single-seater, twin-engine fifth-generation stealth multi-role fighter planned by DRDO. Meanwhile, the US has already updated its policy on gas-turbine engine technology transfer to India to expand cooperation in production and design of sensitive jet engine components.

Almost a year later, in November 2017, it appears that nothing has changed (and honestly, why should it?) from the above.

‘Full transfer of tech in defence aviation is non-negotiable’
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 968794.ece

Q. But what about full ToT because under the SP policy OEMs cannot have 51 per cent share even if the FDI policy allows it?
A. It will never be full ToT. It is not in the national interest or industry’s interest. Certain technologies are not transferable to anyone in the world. Billions of dollars are spent over decades to make military-grade engines and what makes military-grade engines unique in the world is hot-sectioned technology and codings and those are crown-jewel technologies. No one is going to hand that over. So anyone who says they will is not being honest. They will not.

Q. So how do you see a meeting ground in this with the Indian government because both Lockheed Martine and SAAB are competing for it?
A. I think there is a very rational understanding on what is reasonable and what is unreasonable and so the government has to decide which deal is the best deal. We are trying to meet the government’s expectation on ToT, not 100 per cent but ToT.

The answers to the above interview was by Keith Webster (former Director, International Cooperation - Office of the Secretary of Defense, US Govt) who is now the Senior Vice President of the US-India Strategic Partnership Forum (http://www.usispf.org/)

The only way for India (i.e. GTRE) to get this "hot engine" tech is basically investing in further R&D and putting a prototype onto a testbed. America (via P&W or GE) will not do it, France (via Snecma-Safran) will not do it, Russia (via Saturn or Klimov) will not do it, UK (via Rolls Royce) will not do it....nobody will do it for India. On a similar note...

India, UK working on latest jet engine
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 91715.html

The gas turbine engine, the very latest in technology, is being developed in collaboration between UK’s Rolls Royce and India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), said Stephen Phipson, Head of Defence and Security Organisation, Department of International Trade, UK. He was interacting with mediapersons along with UK Secretary of State for Defence Sir Michael Fallon here after the India-UK Strategic Defence Dialogue. The UK delegation held talks with the Indian side led by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley. “This is a very high-thrust engine. It has the highest thrust possible in a jet engine,” said Phipson, who accompanied Sir Fallon at the press briefing. He, however, refused to divulge the details.

I will wait for the specs to come out, to believe that statement :)

Rolls-Royce bets big on gas turbine engine technology with DRDO
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 866339.ece

"Just like all the engine houses, we are closely tracking the AMCA opportunity. This is now at the RFI stage. We naturally hope the RFP will be issued soon. The Indian Air Force wants these indigenous aircraft and it will be their decision on the engine solution whether it is off-the-shelf or indigenous. The RFP will answer these questions," he added.

So now apart from Snecma working on the Kaveri turbofan for Tejas, Rolls-Royce is doing the same albeit for the AMCA program. However, the Kaveri turbofan for AMCA is sure to trickle down to the Tejas as well. Now why run two parallel programs to revive the Kaveri? Are we hedging our bets that if Snecma-Safran fails, then Rolls Royce is the backup or vice-versa? Or is India going to absorb whatever it can learn from these two engine manufacturers via seeing what components were replaced in the Kaveri turbofan and reverse engineer them? Is that even possible? I do not know.

Another point to note, are Rolls-Royce and Snecma-Safran backups in case the JETJWG committe goes kaput?


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