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Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 15 Mar 2017 12:03

Just thinking aloud if testing methods below would apply to engine development and certification.

In the semiconductor industry, circuits are tested initially for nominal or typical conditions. Circuits contain components like transistors, capacitors, resistances all of which have their own behavioral models from the foundry. Once the initial conditions of the circuit is given , they are submitted together with the models of the components to a circuit simulator which simulates the provides the necessary results asked for.

The above is the first step to prove the circuit functionality. But real-world applications conditions are different. COmmercial mass market products having ICs must work in temperatures from -40C upto +125C.
Secondly,the components like transistors also have their own parameter variation in the models which affect the output. These are called corner-sections and the manufacturer provides the typical,fast,slow models for each transistor type. Likewise for resistors are capacitors which have different corner-sections as they are passive components.
A third feature of the models of components is a random variable which is inserted into some parameters of the models.

So, after the first step of proving circuit functionality in nominal conditions, two further intensive tests are undertaken.
1. Corner simulations. Here the number of corners are discrete and is a combination of corners of the components used in the circuit. So if a transistor has 3 model corners and a resistor 2, a total of 6 corners are available which are then fed to the simulator to test functionality. The company I work for makes 2$ ICs for power management and the corners are usually around 10. Companies like Intel have 125 - 150 corners for processors circuit simulations. The corner conditions specify the extremes of the conditions the IC will work in. if it works in these conditions, then functionality is guaranteed on the extreme boundary conditions.

2. Monte Carlo simulations. Here the random variable in the models is excited and is fed to she simulator. Typically with the random variable, 1000s of simulations can be run and testing can go on infinitely. But there are mathematical formula which can be used to determine the optimal number of runs.
The results of each of the MonteCarlos simulations must fit into the specifications of the circuit.
-----------
So to the question for engine testing: Can the same be applied ? If you know the extremes of the parameters for each section of the engine, like pressure, temperature, stream velocity , you can theoretically simulate them using equations.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kapilrdave » 15 Mar 2017 12:18

Thanks Indranil for taking time to respond.

So as I understand it, at least static tests can be done at service ceiling of Chinook with the required payload (WiKi says the ceiling is 20k ft without mentioning the load), may be using multiple Chinooks (?). I don't know about the ceiling with equipment load, but assuming the ceiling is at leh's level, it is still at 11000 ft. Shouldn't it take us one step forward with minimum investment and hassle?

I asked about choppers especially because maintaining a facility at high altitudes would be far more expensive and hassleful. It's probably not worth it for the progress it offers in testing. That was my initial thought.

Though, this is now only a theoretical point as Kaveri has already been tested on Russian platform so probably we don't need that one step forward.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 15 Mar 2017 12:46

^^^
You don't need facilities at high altitudes per se. You can build altitude chambers at sea level and those can simulate 30000ft (maybe higher) plus loads of other variables, such as temperature, humidity, air mass flow etc. Won't be cheap though.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kapilrdave » 15 Mar 2017 12:52

Yes, that's the proper test facility. But we don't have it and neither have it in plans. Hence the jugad I proposed.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 15 Mar 2017 12:57

Better to invest in such proper facilities if India is serious about development of aero-engines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 15 Mar 2017 23:51

Neela wrote:So to the question for engine testing: Can the same be applied ? If you know the extremes of the parameters for each section of the engine, like pressure, temperature, stream velocity , you can theoretically simulate them using equations.


Thats how engines are designed. But testing is needed to validate the theoretical design. We still do not understand Physics well enough to be able to mathematically predict system behaviour of a whole lot of systems in this world. The last mile is covered using actual testing, models updated/fine tuned using experimental values and used in operational life. As our models are getting matured, we are also moving into new areas previously not handled. So its always a cat and mouse game. By the time your simulation capability becomes highly accurate and reliable, the technology has become obsolete already for cutting edge application. E.g. we not have very good capability of simulating structural behaviour of metals, but things have moved on to the Composites now and we are only as good with composites today as we were in say 1970s with metals. By the time we master existing type of composites, something new will come up.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 15 Mar 2017 23:58

kapilrdave wrote:Thanks Indranil for taking time to respond.

So as I understand it, at least static tests can be done at service ceiling of Chinook with the required payload (WiKi says the ceiling is 20k ft without mentioning the load), may be using multiple Chinooks (?). I don't know about the ceiling with equipment load, but assuming the ceiling is at leh's level, it is still at 11000 ft. Shouldn't it take us one step forward with minimum investment and hassle?

I asked about choppers especially because maintaining a facility at high altitudes would be far more expensive and hassleful. It's probably not worth it for the progress it offers in testing. That was my initial thought.

Though, this is now only a theoretical point as Kaveri has already been tested on Russian platform so probably we don't need that one step forward.


What are you proposing exactly..?? Taking Kaveri high up in the mountain and test it on the ground there. or test Kaveri while its underslung below a Chinook or two.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 16 Mar 2017 00:00

kapilrdave wrote:Thanks Indranil for taking time to respond.

So as I understand it, at least static tests can be done at service ceiling of Chinook with the required payload (WiKi says the ceiling is 20k ft without mentioning the load), may be using multiple Chinooks (?). I don't know about the ceiling with equipment load, but assuming the ceiling is at leh's level, it is still at 11000 ft. Shouldn't it take us one step forward with minimum investment and hassle?

I asked about choppers especially because maintaining a facility at high altitudes would be far more expensive and hassleful. It's probably not worth it for the progress it offers in testing. That was my initial thought.

Though, this is now only a theoretical point as Kaveri has already been tested on Russian platform so probably we don't need that one step forward.

Forget your heli based idea. That is ridiculous :wink: .

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kapilrdave » 16 Mar 2017 19:17

JayS,
underslung or ferried to a mountain. The basic question is that can it be tested at height (say 11k ft) in natural conditions without a proper test facility.

Indranil,
Alrite :) :oops: .

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 16 Mar 2017 19:41

:D When you fire up an engine suspended on a helicopter even for a static test - the chinook will be running after the engine :rotfl:

Remember a static test means the engine is bound down to the floor (or test bed) and fired. It is static but generating a tremendous force as after all the engine is designed to make things fly.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Mar 2017 19:52

India wants to be bleeding edge, she has to dominate "engine"s (and metsci). Might as well start building a test facility for engines at sea level, with controls to simulate various heights, including vacuum. Well worth the investment.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 16 Mar 2017 20:26

kapilrdave wrote:JayS,
underslung or ferried to a mountain. The basic question is that can it be tested at height (say 11k ft) in natural conditions without a proper test facility.

Indranil,
Alrite :) :oops: .


yaar woh test kar rahein hain how the engine behaves at high altitude in flight. Not static.
Static high altitude conditions can be simulated at low altitudes also.
In high altitude rarefied conditions, icicles and other issues can form on engines and it needs to be studied in depth. One TSP turbo prop ATR carrying a singer crshed because the heater on the propeller used to de-ice and heat the blades had malfunctioned. The icicles had thus jammed the blades and the ATR engine malfunctioned and plane did a vertical plunge into ravines. There are such many issues encountered only in actual flight test conditions. And not revealed in static test.

For the life of me, I haven't yet figured out why the GoI hasn't been able to rig a IL-76 for engine test bed yet. Itne bhi to sust nahin hain woh.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Mar 2017 04:16



Forget all the information he supplies, I love Mr. Gouda. He reminds me of one of my teachers. He knows a lot, but the way he speaks is very endearing to me. A perfect SDRE.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Mar 2017 05:20

can't forget all the information he puts out. wonderful data that require getting Kaveri tested at all envelopes.
and in any r&d phase, there is nothing called finalizing any design

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 17 Mar 2017 14:17

kapilrdave wrote:JayS,
underslung or ferried to a mountain. The basic question is that can it be tested at height (say 11k ft) in natural conditions without a proper test facility.

Indranil,
Alrite :) :oops: .

First thought that came to my mind after reading about Kaveri fired up while underslung on an helicopter was this:

https://youtu.be/xQttweuOyrU?t=5s

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 17 Mar 2017 15:47

habal wrote:For the life of me, I haven't yet figured out why the GoI hasn't been able to rig a IL-76 for engine test bed yet. Itne bhi to sust nahin hain woh.


Surely surely someone must have presented TCO (purchase/spares/maintainence) of all engines in mil. use ? Surely that data must be convincing enough? Surely investment in IGDMP was a lesson learned on how payoff comes 2 decades later.

Despite shoestring budgets and forms in friplicate, you have a working Kaveri and a promising HTFE. I remember Karan posting on how budgets were "adjusted" from other heads to fund some other R&D. Even on HAL IJT or Saras - they had funding issues. That was at least the reality before 2014

$15 billion is the outlay by the Chinese. Even if just a quarter of that sum is actually true, that is still a whopping ~$3.5billion. And they are hiring talent in the US for both this and the Comac aircraft development.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 17 Mar 2017 16:13

Indranil wrote:Forget all the information he supplies, I love Mr. Gouda. He reminds me of one of my teachers. He knows a lot, but the way he speaks is very endearing to me. A perfect SDRE.


He was nearly incomprehensible with his thick accent and mind numbingly low on details presentation , resulting I am sure , in the bulk of the folks who watched it barely able to get anything out of it.

A much better presentation one that clearly informs is here Fudamentals of Engine Control by Dr Sanjay Garg, of Nasa Glenn Research - Chief Controls & Dynamics branch as his title says. (his bio says he is from the Kanpur Madrassa, he and the Yak Herder and probably bum chums)

For folks interested, go through the presentation, it lays out everything that Mr Gouda talked about, but lot more clarity with diagrams, details and lot more coherently.

Basically, the problems which Mr Gouda talked about would be fixed by suitably programming the FADEC (rather than the really old fashioned days of giving pilots cue cards). But then, if you go back to the OEM who sold you the plane and engine and start nosing around and start asking them details about component maps, math and performance models, design details and degraded performance details, etc etc, Good Luck ! They are going to give you the birdie and sure as hell are not going to give you a fix .

Nothing like having your own engine to fix these kind of programs (like reprogramming the FADEC for eg..).

Too bad. Let us import from Russia, import from France, but throw chicken feed at our local efforts and for the folks working there, whip them hard, feed them poo , invest in no infra , but expect miracles , AND pour scorn. All Fake News. Bad! Make India Great Again.
Last edited by vina on 17 Mar 2017 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 17 Mar 2017 16:36

Mr. Gouda did say almost all engine manufacturers they interacted with admitted to the noise flutter at high altitude during high altitude test phase of engine development but different designers had different solutions for the same.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 17 Mar 2017 18:25

habal wrote:Mr. Gouda did say almost all engine manufacturers they interacted with admitted to the noise flutter at high altitude during high altitude test phase of engine development but different designers had different solutions for the same.


Perfectly illustrates just how incomprehensible he was. He said, that others too encountered the same compressor rotational stall (we found that one of the compressor stages were stalled when we put it in the altitude test stand at Anecom - Germany , IIRC), and he quotes the example of RD-33 and F-404 as engines that faced the same thing.

And you heard what he said as as "noise" and "flutter" . What can I say , other than , download and read up the presentation I posted the link to.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Mar 2017 23:18



Kalyani is designing a 120 kg class engine. They have a small JPL (10-15 engineers guided by ex GTRE/HAL folks) utilizing manufacturing capability of their Puna facility. In one year, they have designed and manufactured the engine. They are sending it for testing now 8) .

They are moving on to develop a 350 kg (Manik class engine) and a 900-1200 kW Turboshaft (HTSE-1200 class) engine. Ho ho ho HAL! Watch out! To be fair, HAL has moved very swiftly with the HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines.

Just goes to show what proper funding and institutional structure can manage.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 18 Mar 2017 00:23

Kudos to Bharat Forge for taking this up. I am really happy to see them doing something great and keeping their word on it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rishi Verma » 18 Mar 2017 00:56

Indranil wrote:

Forget all the information he supplies, I love Mr. Gouda. He reminds me of one of my teachers. He knows a lot, but the way he speaks is very endearing to me. A perfect SDRE.


I am going to send this clip of endearing Mr. Gouda to the PMO office as its extremely poorly delivered in style and substance. And my request would be to refund my tax money. NaMo is known to stop the presentation if serious effort is not made to prepare it. I hope and pray that we are not paying dearly because of the disastrous reservation quota system.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ranjan.rao » 18 Mar 2017 01:48

JayS wrote:Kudos to Bharat Forge for taking this up. I am really happy to see them doing something great and keeping their word on it.

efforts like these give hope to this nanha but old mujahid that things will only get better from here in future ...

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 18 Mar 2017 03:53

Rishi Verma wrote:I am going to send this clip of endearing Mr. Gouda to the PMO office as its extremely poorly delivered in style and substance. And my request would be to refund my tax money. NaMo is known to stop the presentation if serious effort is not made to prepare it. I hope and pray that we are not paying dearly because of the disastrous reservation quota system.

By the same powers of deduction that allows you to arrive at the credentials, capability of Mr. Gouda by how he looks and sounds or what his surname is, I deduce that your tax contributions to India is Rs. 0. By the way, are you from IIT,REC. Because otherwise, you are worthless. And if you are, I hope you would be ready to return the money GoI spent on your education.

P.S. I am reporting my own post for personal attack. But, condescending people like you should be shown a mirror. If I have to pay a price for it, so be it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Marten » 18 Mar 2017 03:58

Indranil wrote:
Rishi Verma wrote:<SNIP>I hope and pray that we are not paying dearly because of the disastrous reservation quota system.

<SNIP>
P.S. I am reporting my own post for personal attack. But, condescending people like you should be shown a mirror. If I have to pay a price for it, so be it.

Why not simply ban him? I had reported the post for the really low comment made by a really ignorant person who has no business being on Bharat Rakshak while attacking one of Bharat's really hard working sons for his SDRE-ness!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rakesh » 18 Mar 2017 04:00

Rishi Verma wrote:I am going to send this clip of endearing Mr. Gouda to the PMO office as its extremely poorly delivered in style and substance. And my request would be to refund my tax money. NaMo is known to stop the presentation if serious effort is not made to prepare it. I hope and pray that we are not paying dearly because of the disastrous reservation quota system.

So you only drink tea and eat crumpets, is that it? What a racist filled diatribe your post is. The man is knowledgeable and he knows his stuff. What does his accent got anything to do with it? We have a number of you types on BRF.

We Indians speak in varied accents and tones. Get used to it, otherwise leave.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby pandyan » 18 Mar 2017 04:12

NAMO would ask Shri Gouda to present in his mother tongue :twisted: and go after our genius here to recover all the investment country made on him

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 18 Mar 2017 04:30

Marten wrote:Why not simply ban him? I had reported the post for the really low comment made by a really ignorant person who has no business being on Bharat Rakshak while attacking one of Bharat's really hard working sons for his SDRE-ness!

With power, comes responsibility. I don't want to drown out his voice, because he speaks differently from most of us.

As to his technical knowledge in aero related matters, he has nothing more to offer than opinions. When he tries to show that he "really knows", enthusiasts can easily refute his claims :lol: . But he continues to stick to his guns, and later cry foul. Unfortunately, it is not against forum rules to be a know all, or to wail.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JTull » 18 Mar 2017 05:03

Disappointed by that post. That's below the belt.

Doesn't deserve a second look. So let's all move on quickly.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 18 Mar 2017 06:08

Rishi Verma wrote:
I am going to send this clip of endearing Mr. Gouda to the PMO office as its extremely poorly delivered in style and substance. And my request would be to refund my tax money. NaMo is known to stop the presentation if serious effort is not made to prepare it. I hope and pray that we are not paying dearly because of the disastrous reservation quota system.

An excellent observation

A good accent in English is essential for good communication. I would rather have a Shashi Tharoor or Manish Tiwari in such a position than this man because their accents and ability to present in a language that I understand and relate to are impeccable. When presented well, the actual content ceases to matter and the magic of language weaves a web of class that mere technical knowledge cannot equal. Diction and erudition more than compensate for any technical deficiencies.. As a citizen who has always valued language skills over the crass "rough hands-foul mouth" types exemplified in this video I wholeheartedly agree that sending this video to the PM would certainly help him to understand who knows good English and who does not and assist him in governing this country to bring up people whose ability to stand shoulder to shoulder to the best in the West is visible from their facile use of the English language - the medium of gentlemen of culture and excellence, I only wish the PM's English had been as good as mine, so he could understand the state of the nation as well as I do. When I stand among my white colleagues - the language of the man in the video embarrasses me. Where has the gentle culture of Nehru gone?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 18 Mar 2017 06:41

:evil:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rishi Verma » 18 Mar 2017 10:30

Hakimji I wasn't going to reply to your OT post. I know you get emotional about this things.

1) I categorically say that his English accent wasn't and isn't part of my post

2) I also know that having polished English (example Burkha Dutt) doesn't mean one has any brains

But...

I am sure DRDO/GTRE have free dental clinics on campus. If a senior educated jet engine designer can't take care of own teeth given a clinic is minutes away - walking distance, then we must end up with the disaster of a program called Kaveri Engine.

This is just one part of the observation.

Soviets got help from British, Chinese reverse engineered, other than that all successful jet engines came from private companies.

Indian government "labs" deliver 1 out of 100 things promised and we do lungy dance.

There is a fundamental need to restructure gobermint labs because they have been lying about deadlines and capabilities to the nation for decades. Their main (and only) customer - our Armed Forces have no faith in them.

Enough of presentations, give a damn date when we will fly the first plane with a kaveri engine!!!

Let me try a graphic example like you do often.
If a technician comes to change the RO filter at your home and keeps scratching his balls, will you let him?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 18 Mar 2017 12:38

Rishi Verma wrote:Hakimji I wasn't going to reply to your OT post. I know you get emotional about this things.

1) I categorically say that his English accent wasn't and isn't part of my post


Interesting that the only message supportive of your learned viewpoint resulted in a rapid downhill ski from you


But...


Yes but indeed

It also resulted in this hurried shifting of goalpost from you
Rishi Verma wrote: am sure DRDO/GTRE have free dental clinics on campus. If a senior educated jet engine designer can't take care of own teeth given a clinic is minutes away - walking distance, then we must end up with the disaster of a program called Kaveri Engine.

:D But here I must tip my hat to you.

You have come up with a truly original comment that ranks right up there with "scooter helmet", "chappals" and "peeling paint". No matter what your future relationship with this forum might be "bad teeth" will ensure that you will be immortal on BRF. Rishi Verma amar rahe.

Enough of presentations, give a damn date when we will fly the first plane with a kaveri engine!!!

What engine? You were speaking about reservation.

Let me try a graphic example like you do often.
If a technician comes to change the RO filter at your home and keeps scratching his balls, will you let him?

Graphic rhetoric is a worthless game of diversion from the topic at hand. I can do it too. Do you recall if the primary person who handled your food and fed you when you were a child had washed his or her hands thoroughly after visiting the toilet. This question is as irrelevant as yours.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby LokeshC » 18 Mar 2017 12:53

So I guess saying "sun rises in the east" in pure, grammatically correct Engleashu makes it more of a fact than saying "sooraj poorab se nikalta hai".

I worked with native Japanese and native Korean Engineers a few years ago, with this attitude if one hears their English (and experience their body odor) one would feel like they are still swinging on trees and living in caves out there.

People with this kind of attitude is a major reason why India is where she is today. They are nothing but colonized minds acting like a bulldog standing watch for a master who is long gone.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby GShankar » 18 Mar 2017 13:19

A great reminder of the attitude that we thought was only from the prior generations. Sepoy-ness does continue in some.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby abhijitm » 18 Mar 2017 13:46

We need to be bit cautious of judging people's appearance. Like what happened to Shobha De. Teeth could turn yellow due to heavy dosage of antibiotics in their childhood. Also irregular teeth can be hereditary.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby LokeshC » 18 Mar 2017 13:49

^^ Sir. Bad teeth can change the gas laws in the turbine. Someone with bad teeth and non Britshit Engleash accent must apply a "whitening" equation to their engine model. Or else it wont work. Weird are the ways of this magical world.

/SARC. Last from me on this.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rakesh » 18 Mar 2017 18:21

I can't believe RV (is that even his real name? 8) ) had the temerity to come back and post even more nonsense. The teeth issue really takes the cake. And as Hakeemji said, he wil always have that identity on BRF. As I said before, we have a few of these types on BRF. They address their own countrymen as "You Indians" while they beat the drum of fake patriotism. Rather than India develop her own identity, they will push the identity of other countries on to Her. What a sellout! :roll:

abhijitm: Why bother to respond to him? He has embarrased himself enough. Let him scratch his own balls, that will let him think :)

snahata
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby snahata » 18 Mar 2017 19:45

This problem is not unique to this character , RV. So someone has a thick accent and few missing teeth and therfore he is to be reported to the PM. Boss put your tail between your legs and run. What a absolutely moronic comment. Boss my experience of life says that when people speak with perfect oxford english like Tharoor and are impeccably dressed more often than not they are full of shit. One of the smartest business brains in all of India and oh and one of the richest guys in India probably no one on BRF will recognize him if they saw him in real life. Why, because many times he wears his dhoti short ending between his knee and ankle and a ordinary chola, and he is short and may have a few missing teeth.But everyone in the Indian film industry barring none will be more than happy to clean his arse if given half a chance. And there are tons of other examples I can give.Hope that explains everything to this buffoon.

If Steve Jobs wore wrinkled Jeans and a cheap T shirt , Oh so cool, If Bill Gates does the same super cool but if a SDRE does that report him to the PM.Get rid of this colonial slave mindset.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby PratikDas » 18 Mar 2017 23:17

Was anyone else impressed that India's CEMILAC has people of Gouda ji's calibre? I certainly was. CEMILAC has a very difficult mandate - accepting so much responsibility through certification and, perhaps, getting no love from the developer community for being that shrewd examiner.

With the quality of presentation after presentation at AIS 2017, I'm convinced that with an order of magnitude increase in turbofan R&D and facilities, and with mission-mode project management with high-level oversight, like Parrikar ji's more-than-quarterly inquiries into the status of the HTT-40 project, we could build an engine good enough for UCAV and twin-engine AMCA.


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