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Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 25 Mar 2017 09:27

I was thinking about exactly this. Probably, it's too expensive to keep in the air.

This machine is one of kind. A true enigma. everything about it is unique. It amazes every aero nut I know.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 25 Mar 2017 10:51

All this is well and good but from 2008 onward I have been reading about the imminent success of Kaveri. But it remains no where near completion.

So the question that I have is this. A clean slate design for a similar jet engine that can have applications for the AMCA is initiated today. How long will it take to realise and mature. Can it be on line and certified by 2025, or will it take longer than that. If it is taken as a national mission with no resource held back.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 25 Mar 2017 11:01

What's holding us back is not design. It is the materials.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 25 Mar 2017 11:43

Chinese have already shoehorned their J-11B in 1:1 config.

1 ws-10a and 1 AL-31, by the time we get our safran approved model up for flight tests, the chinese already have thousands of flight hours on their model, with lot of flight data to play with.

Except in case of imported planes and engines when all flight parameters are tested by end user, :roll: desi maal has to be 100% from get go.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 25 Mar 2017 11:48

Is there anyway BRF can arrange a meeting with Modi, ek white paper submit karna hain, and top of list should be flight testing platforms for kaveri. 2 each for cemilac and GTRE should be provided for further development of aero turbines. Also high altitude flight test centres built brand new from ground up, with technical inputs from ISRO. If we commit to something then ho jayega.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2017 12:12

Is it written?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 25 Mar 2017 13:35

We can open thread for white paper, with contributions from all, end product should be compact, not more than 1 page. And facilitation & procurement of flight test platforms for indigenous turbine should be priority # 1.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gagan » 25 Mar 2017 14:21

Have people seen Baba Kalyani's talk at AIS?
He has set up a 'Jet Propulsion Lab' in Bangalore and Pune, for jet engines.
His 25 kgf small jet engine is ready and is going for trials in the next few months. This is a small engine for UAV applications per him.
He is working on a bigger engine with 350 kgf
And a Helicopter engine too in pune.

He has employed ex-GTRE folks in Bangalore. The Bharat Forge group is even 3D orinting parts for them. This company works with all sorts of materials and alloys, including titanium. Pretty impressive presentation. There is another video of him with Shekhar Goopta, where he showcases the artillary systems he's built.
They have an ultralight Aluminium barrel 105mm truck mounted field gun too. He is making a 155 mm Titanium field howitzer also!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kit » 25 Mar 2017 15:53

Gagan wrote:Have people seen Baba Kalyani's talk at AIS?
He has set up a 'Jet Propulsion Lab' in Bangalore and Pune, for jet engines.
His 25 kgf small jet engine is ready and is going for trials in the next few months. This is a small engine for UAV applications per him.
He is working on a bigger engine with 350 kgf
And a Helicopter engine too in pune.

He has employed ex-GTRE folks in Bangalore. The Bharat Forge group is even 3D orinting parts for them. This company works with all sorts of materials and alloys, including titanium. Pretty impressive presentation. There is another video of him with Shekhar Goopta, where he showcases the artillary systems he's built.
They have an ultralight Aluminium barrel 105mm truck mounted field gun too. He is making a 155 mm Titanium field howitzer also!


more than anyone Bharat Forge does look like the one that is most promising !!

just see what Kalyani s credentials are as per wiki

""Babasaheb Kalyani was born in a Lingayat family on 7 January 1949 to Sulochana and Neelakanth Kalyani, a Pune-based technocrat and maker of auto components. He completed his high school from Rashtriya Military School Belgaum/Belgavi, formerly King George Royal Indian Military College. He attended BITS Pilani, from where he earned a BE(Hons.) in Mechanical Engineering in 1970,[6] and later Massachusetts Institute of Technology where he earned an MS degree""

small wonder !

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby pandyan » 25 Mar 2017 18:45

And he had to wait 2.5years to get approval for testing his gun. Approval never came so he flew it US to test it. Required ITAR and variety of other clearances. Thats 2.5 years lost. Only after seeing the video of gun test did local MOD and Army guys took him seriously

It will be interesting to see what flying testbed they would use. God speed!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Mar 2017 19:08

habal wrote:We can open thread for white paper, with contributions from all, end product should be compact, not more than 1 page. And facilitation & procurement of flight test platforms for indigenous turbine should be priority # 1.

Just do it!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2017 02:55

Pratyush wrote:All this is well and good but from 2008 onward I have been reading about the imminent success of Kaveri. But it remains no where near completion.


An engine, perhaps, by itself, is the most complex machine. The problem has always been related to predicting an engines success. India is no exception. Perhaps the best path is to make work and then tell the world we have an engine.


So the question that I have is this. A clean slate design for a similar jet engine that can have applications for the AMCA is initiated today. How long will it take to realise and mature. Can it be on line and certified by 2025, or will it take longer than that. If it is taken as a national mission with no resource held back.


As you yourself have mentioned above, India has had little success with an engine.

They have accepted help with Safran from France to complete the Kaveri and mate it with the LCA.

On the other side India has requested to work with GE to update the GE F414 INS6 for the AMCA, work on which has started in Bangalore.

Both, IMHO, will produce an engine. But I very much doubt that they will provide the knowledge base for India to start with a clean sheet effort to produce a world class engine. For that, I think, India will need to seed about a 100 institutions and wait for at least 10, if not 20, years. And then hope they have a working engine. But, that, I think, would be worthwhile.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2017 22:42

Folks I am interested in more details of the Manik turbofan: diameter, length, weight, thrust, sfc and technology like by pass ratio etc.

later would like to compare to the Tomahawk engine i.e the Williams one.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 11 Apr 2017 23:41

Image

Don't worry about this class of engines. India will soon have world class engines in this class with both GTRE and the private sector having a stab at it. There are two private sector entities which already have small turbofans in testing: Bharat Forge with a 1.2 kN engine and Intech with a 0.2 kN engine. They both plan to go up to 3.5 kN soon.

Similarly HAL And Bharatforge are both designing turboshafts of 900-1200 kW regime.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 11 Apr 2017 23:54

There was a time when making smaller engines was more challenging that the big commercial or fighter engines. But now with 3D technology at hand the tables are turned. We should see proliferation of Jet technology in small thrust class world over in coming years.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2017 02:55

Indranil, Thanks a lot. I am not concerned with mfg in India.
I am trying to discern Nirbhay design characteristics.

For example Manik engine thrust is 425/311 = 1.366 times more than the THawk Williams engine. Due to this its sfc is 0/78/0.68 is 1.14 times.
Very efficient compared to TH engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107

I know its hot tropical environment, but why ~37% higher thrust?
The Manik is shorter 900 mm vs 1262mm

The Manik Diamter is 360mm vs 305 mm. Does this mean bigger air intake?
I don't know the bypass ratio for Manik, but Williams is 1.0

As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.
Williams is 4.61. But is you see the picture the Williams looks quite complex leading to more cost.
Manik seems clean and all contained. So its cost could be quite less.

It has FADEC and integrated alternator vs. the extra add-ons for Williams.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby srai » 12 Apr 2017 06:43

^^^

Costs should be a big factor for these disposable engines. Lower costs the better. Single use application. ~1500km run is all that is expected. No need to invest in too much durability.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 12 Apr 2017 13:53

NRao wrote:
Pratyush wrote:All this is well and good but from 2008 onward I have been reading about the imminent success of Kaveri. But it remains no where near completion.


An engine, perhaps, by itself, is the most complex machine. The problem has always been related to predicting an engines success. India is no exception. Perhaps the best path is to make work and then tell the world we have an engine.


So the question that I have is this. A clean slate design for a similar jet engine that can have applications for the AMCA is initiated today. How long will it take to realise and mature. Can it be on line and certified by 2025, or will it take longer than that. If it is taken as a national mission with no resource held back.


As you yourself have mentioned above, India has had little success with an engine.

They have accepted help with Safran from France to complete the Kaveri and mate it with the LCA.

On the other side India has requested to work with GE to update the GE F414 INS6 for the AMCA, work on which has started in Bangalore.

Both, IMHO, will produce an engine. But I very much doubt that they will provide the knowledge base for India to start with a clean sheet effort to produce a world class engine. For that, I think, India will need to seed about a 100 institutions and wait for at least 10, if not 20, years. And then hope they have a working engine. But, that, I think, would be worthwhile.


Coming from the business world, seeding a 100 institutions works for things not requiring heavy infrastructure.

It does not work for things that do. There is a reason why there are just a handful of microchip companies and only two major commercial aircraft firms. The cost of building up the infrastructure and the subsequent eco-system of suppliers is too expensive to allow for any but a handful.

Building an engine belongs to the latter. No matter what we need to fund the eco-system that had already built up around the Kaveri. Yes, make changes to improve/enhance it but sending funds in a 100 different directions will simply dilute your effort.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Apr 2017 15:22

abhijitm wrote:We need to be bit cautious of judging people's appearance. Like what happened to Shobha De. Teeth could turn yellow due to heavy dosage of antibiotics in their childhood. Also irregular teeth can be hereditary.


I am sure this fellow Verma was not happy about Shri Gouda's skin color and facial features too.
Lets see, accent, teeth were already mentioned.

Do we need such people on BRF? Or are there further depths to fall.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 12 Apr 2017 19:35

chola wrote:
NRao wrote:
An engine, perhaps, by itself, is the most complex machine. The problem has always been related to predicting an engines success. India is no exception. Perhaps the best path is to make work and then tell the world we have an engine.




As you yourself have mentioned above, India has had little success with an engine.

They have accepted help with Safran from France to complete the Kaveri and mate it with the LCA.

On the other side India has requested to work with GE to update the GE F414 INS6 for the AMCA, work on which has started in Bangalore.

Both, IMHO, will produce an engine. But I very much doubt that they will provide the knowledge base for India to start with a clean sheet effort to produce a world class engine. For that, I think, India will need to seed about a 100 institutions and wait for at least 10, if not 20, years. And then hope they have a working engine. But, that, I think, would be worthwhile.


Coming from the business world, seeding a 100 institutions works for things not requiring heavy infrastructure.

It does not work for things that do. There is a reason why there are just a handful of microchip companies and only two major commercial aircraft firms. The cost of building up the infrastructure and the subsequent eco-system of suppliers is too expensive to allow for any but a handful.

Building an engine belongs to the latter. No matter what we need to fund the eco-system that had already built up around the Kaveri. Yes, make changes to improve/enhance it but sending funds in a 100 different directions will simply dilute your effort.


Let it slide. You are not on the same page. Not worth discussing things in this manner. (Not saying you are wrong.)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gyan » 12 Apr 2017 21:13

ramana wrote:Indranil, Thanks a lot. I am not concerned with mfg in India.
I am trying to discern Nirbhay design characteristics.

For example Manik engine thrust is 425/311 = 1.366 times more than the THawk Williams engine. Due to this its sfc is 0/78/0.68 is 1.14 times.
Very efficient compared to TH engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107

I know its hot tropical environment, but why ~37% higher thrust?
The Manik is shorter 900 mm vs 1262mm

The Manik Diamter is 360mm vs 305 mm. Does this mean bigger air intake?
I don't know the bypass ratio for Manik, but Williams is 1.0

As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.
Williams is 4.61. But is you see the picture the Williams looks quite complex leading to more cost.
Manik seems clean and all contained. So its cost could be quite less.

It has FADEC and integrated alternator vs. the extra add-ons for Williams.


Perhaps 5000km range missile intended to reach Chinese Eastern Coast. India seems to be developing 4.25kn, 3.75kn, 2.5kn, 1kn engines. Hmmmm.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Apr 2017 21:51

ramana wrote:As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.

We don't know what those 110 kgs include. I remember an aero india seminar talk in 2015 (or was is it 2013?) when a GTRE gent had talked about the engine. The talk also featured a gent from Saturn, whose Russian, this gent translated to English as well. Manik's specifications are truly world class. Whether GTRE can deliver them or not remains to be seen. The signs are good, but the progress is slow.

By the way, all the folks in Intech and Bharat-Forge's aero RnD positions in Bangalore are ex-HAL and ex-GTRE. Here the progress is stupendously fast. Another engine in this category (2.75 kN) is being developed by NAL/RCI. So, there will be no dearth of desi-engines in this regime.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Apr 2017 01:11

^^ From the slide you posted above includes the "integrated Alternator".

What is the power take off of 2KW? Power Take off is a PTO a motor axle to drive some rotary system. Is this for a hydraulic pump for the Nirbhay controls?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Cybaru » 13 Apr 2017 02:00

NRao wrote:
chola wrote:
Coming from the business world, seeding a 100 institutions works for things not requiring heavy infrastructure.

It does not work for things that do. There is a reason why there are just a handful of microchip companies and only two major commercial aircraft firms. The cost of building up the infrastructure and the subsequent eco-system of suppliers is too expensive to allow for any but a handful.

Building an engine belongs to the latter. No matter what we need to fund the eco-system that had already built up around the Kaveri. Yes, make changes to improve/enhance it but sending funds in a 100 different directions will simply dilute your effort.


Let it slide. You are not on the same page. Not worth discussing things in this manner. (Not saying you are wrong.)


Let it slide? :roll: Thats quite condescending isn't it?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 13 Apr 2017 02:58

^^^ NRao-ji did add that he is not saying I am wrong. Otherwise, it would have wounded my feelings badly.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Apr 2017 09:49

ramana wrote:^^ From the slide you posted above includes the "integrated Alternator".

What is the power take off of 2KW? Power Take off is a PTO a motor axle to drive some rotary system. Is this for a hydraulic pump for the Nirbhay controls?

Must be hydraulics + avionics.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 14 Apr 2017 11:58

Rolls-Royce, DRDO to tie up

Collaboration is under way between engine maker Rolls Royce and India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on the engine technology
.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gyan » 14 Apr 2017 14:03

UK Should be asked if they want to help in AMCA & Kaveri version for AMCA. Though it's possible poodle might backstab us.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 14 Apr 2017 14:31

Saurav Jha‏
@SJha1618


Meanwhile, MIDHANI has successfully developed a Titanium alloy Yi26 forging for Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour engines in use with the IAF.

1:56 PM - 13 Apr 2017

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 14 Apr 2017 16:07

Neela wrote:Rolls-Royce, DRDO to tie up

Collaboration is under way between engine maker Rolls Royce and India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on the engine technology
.


What the hell does this mean from this news..?

“The next step is to have a technology demonstrator in 12 months,” said Stephen Phipson, Head of Defence and Security Organisation which he said would be the “highest thrust gas turbine engine.”

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 14 Apr 2017 17:41

Probably the uprating of the EJ200 for the AMCA. Can't be the engine for the Jags as it mentions "highest thrust".

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 14 Apr 2017 19:11

JayS wrote:What the hell does this mean from this news..?

“The next step is to have a technology demonstrator in 12 months,” said Stephen Phipson, Head of Defence and Security Organisation which he said would be the “highest thrust gas turbine engine.”

Shoddy piece from The Hindu where you cannot understand what is being said. The paragraphs before and after have no meaning and follow no flow of thought.

But it appears there is a plan to co-develop a high thrust engine. Saurav Jha seems to indicate the same in his twitter account.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 14 Apr 2017 19:12

An article by Saurav Jha on the Safran consultancy is due this week.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Apr 2017 19:34

When it comes to the "Kaveri", as compared to others, Safran is the one that can assist the most. Safran has been in contact, with the project, since 2008.

I suspect the RR effort is more a PMO type of an effort and unrelated to any specific current engine. They will probably have to start with some engine, but I doubt they have any serious goal in mind (WRT a plane), thus the 12 month self imposed restriction.

Engines in their previous lives are material science projects. Cannot escape that. And absolutely no one will reveal the secret of material AND how the industrial product is manufactured. So, even Safran, will deliver a Kaveri that will be more than good enough for the LCA, but will not reveal secrets of the materials used, nor how they are made. But India will have a 100 kN Kaveri.

Then for the next gen engine back to Safran, GE, RR, other alpha soups.

The goal, as it should be, is an engine. The means is material sciences.
Last edited by NRao on 14 Apr 2017 19:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 14 Apr 2017 19:52

I think the journo simply mixed up things. Probably its about RR's own commercial engine (Highest thrust makes sense in this context - higher thrust than any other engine so far). One cannot even complete preliminary design in 12 months let along making a prototype.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tushar_m » 14 Apr 2017 20:23

One good thing is that we are hedging our bets on aero engines for both LCA & AMCA

1) If Kaveri + Scnema deliver then very well (timeline 18 months )
2) If Trump administration go for F414 "i" (not likely to happen no timeline)
3) If UK can deliver up-rated EJ200 in 12 months (250 AMCA = 1000+ engines / maybe LCA then 1500-2000 engines)
4) If HAL/Private Industries do some magic (no timeline but it will happen for sure)

Also there might be a situation that UK might offer QE Aircraft Carrier to us.(completed or blueprints ?)
UK economy will be hit by Brexit & India spends more in UK then the whole Europe (source :BBC documentry Youtube)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Apr 2017 20:31

tushar_m wrote:One good thing is that we are hedging our bets on aero engines for both LCA & AMCA


Depends on whom you talk to and believe.

1) If Kaveri + Scnema deliver then very well (timeline 18 months )


Ok, 18 months is acceptable, to deliver an engine, hopefully a certified one. But, it should take another year to mount and test it on a plane. Hopefully a twin engine platform. Then another year on a LCA platform? And if on an AMCA, another couple of years.

2) If Trump administration go for F414 "i" (not likely to happen no timeline)


GE Bangalore has started work, on improving the F414 INS6. The other shoe - F-16 MII- is in limbo.

3) If UK can deliver up-rated EJ200 in 12 months (250 AMCA = 1000+ engines / maybe LCA then 1500-2000 engines)


A URL please.

Also there might be a situation that UK might offer QE Aircraft Carrier to us.(completed or blueprints ?)
UK economy will be hit by Brexit & India spends more in UK then the whole Europe (source :BBC documentry Youtube)


For what? Has Vishal been cancelled?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tushar_m » 14 Apr 2017 20:45

requested URL

UK’s Rolls Royce, India’s DRDO working together on engine for fighter jets

Timeline given in idrw article

Vishal design is done ????? Didn't know that

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Apr 2017 21:59

Ah. Thx for the URL.

But, as someone already posted, there is no specific information about anything. I hope you are right and it is about uprating the EJ2000.

But that means a couple of things. One that GE is unwilling to part with certain technologies, so India is hedging. Or it could mean there are multiple camps in India who are pushing three different foreign partners. hopefully all this in sync with each other.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neshant » 15 Apr 2017 02:07

China is investing a ton of money into commercial engine development.

Its up & coming locally designed C-919 regional airplane developed to meet FAA certification requirements is designed to compete against Boeing's top seller single asile 737 and the Airbus equivalent. Its a competitive market space. Second tier producers like Bombardier and Embrarer also compete in this market segment against giants Boeing & Airbus. But China has the luxury of forcing it's local carriers to buy any plane the state produces.

Eventually China will substitute the GE engines on the plane for its own locally developed engines.

China also has in planning the C-929 which is a twin asile aircraft designed to compete against the larger Boeing 777 class international carrier.

Babuz in India are way behind struggling to build a 14 seat passenger aircraft for years.


.


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