Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Pratyush
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Kailash wrote: Snip.....

Once every few years once we hear reports of RR or Safran close to being bankrupt, but they never fully get there. If it is just about the IP, know-how and know-why, why not just buy it them off outright?

Suppose GoI plans to buy a stake in one of these two companies, what would be the legal/diplomatic challenges and can the British/French government block/veto such a sale?
They will be nationalised before a foreign player can purchase them.

This is one of the few areas which allows these countries to sit at the top of the technological table.

The other being EUV lithography.

There is no alternative to building our own engineering capacity to develop these products.

The so called tech transfer for the GE 414 to me was a signal that the Kaveri was reaching technical maturity. If the transfer was not made to India the US will miss the bus completely.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Safran is not going bankrupt. They are hiring 1500 people in France now. Order book is full.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:Safran is not going bankrupt. They are hiring 1500 people in France now. Order book is full.
Amen to that!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

GE Marine, HAL sign MOU to explore expanding marine gas turbine manufacturing
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 916206.cms
14 Feb 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by nash »

This is major milestone :
https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... 8671810561

#ReachDefence #EXCLUSIVE
Kaveri Dry Engine has successfully completed high altitude trials at the Russian facility, this is a milestone in engine development program

It was tested at various conditions of pressure, mach # and thrust,
Simulated - 46kN
Achieved - 48.5 kN
Last edited by nash on 14 Feb 2023 21:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

nash wrote:This is major milestone
Excellent news! Thank You Nash Saar!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Lisa »

Is this the right thread?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 897333.cms

Aero India 2023: Committed to jet engine project with India, ..

"BENGALURU: The UK is committed to make its biggest capability transfer in its history as part of the UK-India plan to co-create a jet engine to Indian specifications, said Alex Chalk, UK minister for defence procurement, on Monday."...This is not like other platforms where India would have to seek permissions to export either," said a UK delegation that was at Aero India 2023.
Addressing select media persons, Chalk said there were currently five nations that have this (jet engine) technology. "...India will be the sixth and it will be a sovereign make-in-India capability. The UK already has a head start on it and spent two years in intensive work including going through the concept phase," Chalk said."

P.S. I may be corrected, I remember Abdul Kalam saying that such offers only occur after we have developed the necessary inhouse and furthermore such offers are made to get us to cease our own development.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Lisa wrote:Is this the right thread?
of course! Thank you for posting this.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote:GE Marine, HAL sign MOU to explore expanding marine gas turbine manufacturing
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 916206.cms
14 Feb 2023
For all the talk about Kaveri Marine GT, is that project dead? I haven't seen anything meaningful come out of it :(
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Kaveri Marine GT needs more hours of testing. A Marine GT needs to be serviceable for many thousands of hours. So it is not dead.
GE Marine MOU is for IN ships to replace Ukraine GT.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

nash wrote:This is major milestone :
https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... 8671810561

#ReachDefence #EXCLUSIVE
Kaveri Dry Engine has successfully completed high altitude trials at the Russian facility, this is a milestone in engine development program

It was tested at various conditions of pressure, mach # and thrust,
Simulated - 46kN
Achieved - 48.5 kN
15 years ago, I heard GTRE folks gripe about not having engine testing facilities in India and being forced to wait on facility availability in Russia. Nice to see that a decade and a half later, nothing has changed. We've probably spent the amount it would've cost us to build these facilities from the cost of shipping & facilities fee alone.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

naraswami wrote:K_prasad-ji: You would be quite wrong on your cost estimation to set up a hi-altitude testing capability -- at a minimum by an order of magnitude. Note that more than the facility itself, there are experience and technology capabilities in Test & Validation techniques also that require development. The gripes we still here about high-temperature and hi-pressure test rigs and labs not being funded are because of this expense level. If it was just $$, the Chinese created such things 2+ decades ago - and then they continued to spend to come up the learning curve.
Naraswamigaaru, maybe it would've been more than we've spent so far, even an order of magnitude (although if my memory is correct, the GTRE director mentioned a number closer to 100-200 crores at AI07). Based on everything I heard back then, it was not so much a question of capability, but rather one of willingness. Testing centers such as these are capability-builders, and gives us the time and opportunity to explore the technology and learn more.

For e.g., one of the issues affecting the Kaveri were 3rd order compressor vibrations, which took two years to identify because CIAM didn't have availability for a year, and before that, they'd already spent a year trying other methods to diagnose the problem because of the cost of testing at CIAM in the first place, before they realized they had no other choice. My memory might be wrong (I'd put in the details in my dispatches from AI-07 &/or 09) but the GTRE director mentioned that a similar test rig would've cost only 100 crores to set up in India, but they weren't able to get approval for it. His words were, "When we put it in the testing rig and got the imagery, we could immediately see the vibrations which we had spent two years trying to identify. Imagine how much time we could've saved if we had such a setup in India".
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The GE JV is for the future aircraft carrier.

Kaveri GT is only relevant for smaller ship's.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

kprasad, I was reading about the testing for Vande Bharat trains before they were declared operational. It was a team from IAF that was stood up to write the procedures and ensure the trains met the test objectives.
So IAF is considered the preeminent test expertise pool.

Also as Pratyush wrote the two marine GTs are for different classes of ships.
Let us not see only dark rings in the clouds that bring rain.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

With the huge deals Air India is making, I was curious if making commercial engines was easier, may be that's where the first step should be. I couldn't find any answer to this question earlier although I am very sure, it should have come up.

Possibly a PPP entity (say with HAL) building commercial aircraft engines with support/tech transfer from GTRE which will have a steady flow of income to focus on defence engines as a business opportunity without costing the exchequer
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by csaurabh »

Commercial aviation (and by extension engines for it) is a much bigger deal than military aviation. Moreover converted versions of passenger aeroplanes are used for military transport, refuelers, awacs, etc.

However as a country we have invested into developing fighter aircraft and some helicopters only, the rest is a blank.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

Dexter wrote:I was curious if making commercial engines was easier,
Commercial engine design goal is Efficiency.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

US, UK in race for making fighter engine in India
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 990901.cms
17 Feb 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Bharat Forge, HAL ink pact for production of aerospace grade steel alloys
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 988284.cms
16 Feb 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

maitya wrote:snip... and of course, the weight itself (950kg vs 1150Kg) etc.
Do we have the materials and/or the design capability to reduce the weight without outside help as of today? Is there any research being done into CMCs and other exotic materials?

I have seen the gyan thread on the compression ratios, number of stages and material properties required at each stage, some of it flies way above my head. Seems like a lot of progress needed in lot of varied, sometimes unrelated technologies and techniques.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

We do have research on c-c, c-sic, sic-sic composites apart from other exotic high temperature composites. But we don't have the breadth or scale in these areas. And then we come to production where we are nowhere.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote:US, UK in race for making fighter engine in India
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 990901.cms
17 Feb 2023
Wonder where France is, in this race? We all saw the presentation they made a few months back, promising full ToT. We should throw them into the mix and let the 3 fight it out on who will give us the most
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:US, UK in race for making fighter engine in India
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 990901.cms
17 Feb 2023
Wonder where France is, in this race? We all saw the presentation they made a few months back, promising full ToT. We should throw them into the mix and let the 3 fight it out on who will give us the most
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/16 ... 69?s=20---> As talks with France remain stalled, UK and US push for fighter jet engine development. Capability study with UK complete, eight yrs may be needed to get 110kN engine. US to make 98kN in India but tech transfer not decided, vies for 110kN too.

=================================

This is what has been reported. Talks are reportedly stalled with France. So lets see.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

Probably France is overconfident with their leverage with the existing Rafale jets, and the impending 114 jet sale. Engine selection will have a very direct impact on MRFA selection and maintenance. French may be least forthcoming, even though It is their opportunity to lose.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

No. This is because we balk at what the French are asking for. Other countries want to get into the ring and our guys are trying to play one against the other, bargaining across vendors. But pocket doesn't have two paise.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

We balk at the wrong things....

1) 114 MRFA: Should balk, but we celebrate

2) FTB for Engine: We should celebrate, but we balk

3) Six Apache for $900 million: Should balk, but we celebrate

4) $250 million for a Tejas line: We should celebrate, but we balk

our priorities... :roll:

============================

Another example....
https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 74721?s=20 ---->

ACM RKS Bhadauria (Retd.):
- even the big industrial houses are reluctant to invest in defence space initiatives, urge them to come onboard.
- most of the technology development in defense space domain is of dual-use, benefitting the civil industry too.
https://twitter.com/JamesBondMI6GB/stat ... 70848?s=20 ---> Kalyani Group has a portfolio of 8 indigenously designed and developed artillery systems. Indian Orders till date: Zero.

Kalyani Group rebadged South African Mbombe M4. Indian Orders till date: 60+ vehicles.

Give me a simple reason as to why anyone would even want to invest.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

On a related note, pls refer to this HTSE poster (posted by Rakeshji in the AI'23 thread) ...

It says SC HPT Blades + EVPVD Coating but a 1493K TeT for the HPT ... which should be a food-for-thought for us in BRF.

Something that has been discussed multiple times in the forum, wrt that it's not so much wrt casting tech etc but the other cooling (convectional etc) technologies, and more importantly the development/mastering of mass manufacturing of these technologies, where we are lagging etc.

Just wanted to capture this data-point in this thread ...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

maitya wrote:1493K TeT = 1220 deg Centigrade
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

A bit out of thread. I travelled on Vande Bharat from Chennai to Bangalore recently. The train showed vibrations, jerks, and no sound like a normal one. Very smooth. If the engines are made in Bharat, it is a great effort.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

A Deshmukh wrote:
maitya wrote:1493K TeT = 1220 deg Centigrade
Your point being? Pls could you elaborate.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by KL Dubey »

This seems the latest news:

https://eurasiantimes.com/french-engine ... entangled/

It looks like both UK and USA are ready to co-develop the engine, but India needs to make a decision soon.

From other news links, it seems like India has selected the French for continuing collaboration on helicopter engines.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by drnayar »

Wasn't France supposed to plough back part of the offsets in the Rafale deal into engine tech transfers.. Great "strategic" partner
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by KL Dubey »

drnayar wrote:Wasn't France supposed to plough back part of the offsets in the Rafale deal into engine tech transfers.. Great "strategic" partner
Yes, but there is also a lot of information/news on that process. A simple google search will provide information worthy of discussion, which is more valuable than posting generic questions....
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

maitya wrote:On a related note, pls refer to this HTSE poster (posted by Rakeshji in the AI'23 thread) ...

It says SC HPT Blades + EVPVD Coating but a 1493K TeT for the HPT ... which should be a food-for-thought for us in BRF.
So about 400-800 K below state-of-the-art. Snecma M-88 TeT is 1850 K (probably higher on the newer variants), the F-22's F-119 engine's TeT is 1922 K, while the F-35's F-135 engine is at 2260 K.

It's good progress, but we need to keep pushing and catch up!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Even if she is right (I have no reason to doubt her) Kaveri, IIRC, had a wet thrust that at best could meet the needs of LCA 1/1A. I do not think it can be used in LCA 2. And, then there is a need for the AMCA, @110.

If true, it is great news. But, still has a ways to go.

On the flip side the interest from the US, UK, and France seems to mean India has had a break through. I suspect it is at the lowest rung. Nonetheless it is an achievement.

I would be more interested in dry/wet thrust numbers than bolting it to an LCA. At this stage, do not like linking these engines to an aircraft.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

k prasad wrote:
maitya wrote:On a related note, pls refer to this HTSE poster (posted by Rakeshji in the AI'23 thread) ...

It says SC HPT Blades + EVPVD Coating but a 1493K TeT for the HPT ... which should be a food-for-thought for us in BRF.
So about 400-800 K below state-of-the-art. Snecma M-88 TeT is 1850 K (probably higher on the newer variants), the F-22's F-119 engine's TeT is 1922 K, while the F-35's F-135 engine is at 2260 K.

It's good progress, but we need to keep pushing and catch up!
prasadji, that's not what I'd meant actually ...
Also these figures are from a Turboshaft, so quite different design philosophies wrt a true-blue turbofan (albeit with low BPR).
If TeT comparisons are to be made, then those from F404/414/M88 etc should be contrasted with that of Kabini/Kaveri (1455 deg C TeT).
That would lead to ~200deg difference (~1650C vs 1455C etc) - which in itself is a huge/major gulf wrt technologies involved, betw.

The point that I's trying to make is wrt too much importance we normally attach to SC casting tech etc for HPT blades/vanes - and also when India have had SC casting tech for atleast 1.5 decades now, if not more.

The point is (and pls refer to my earlier posts in this very thread, too lazy to dig them up and re-post them here):
1250deg C is max that's possible for a single-layer TBC to withstand - so achieving higher TeT etc is not so much of an casting etc issue.
(actually it is, which of course is contradictory, but pls bear with me for a sec, and allow me to reach there first)

Normally, graduating from a 3rd gen DS Casting to, say, a 2nd Gen SC etc would provide a ~50-70 odd deg TeT advantage - the real advantage there, of course, is wrt prevention-of-creep-propagation, fatigue (both HCF and LCF) strength etc etc.
But, beyond a point, unidimensional improving purely casting tech would not achieve corresponding linear improvement in TeT etc. As such improvements, would push you merely, further and further closer to the 1250deg C limit of a TBC coating.

Do note however, this limit can be further increased, though not by very much, by say around another 50-60 deg etc, by employing latest gen of thin-film coating via Plasma Spraying tech (like electron beam — physical vapor deposition (EB-PVD)) etc – via formation of the underlying nano-sized columnar solid cluster layer etc. Pls refer to one om earlier posts on TBC for this aspect.
But I digress, as usual.

What really matters, if wanting to increase TeT etc, is the “technological art” of air cooling of the blades – both internal (convectional and impingement) cooling and external (film/transpiration) cooling.
And this where Laser drilling etc comes into picture (for external cooling) - but there again, there's a limit upto which continuing to drill cooling holes on the blade surface will take you to. And GE reportedly had hit that hurdle for one of it's F414 variant devpt etc.
Also ambient temp is unevenly distributed across a typical blade-surface profiles - tips gets to experience the highest temp which then tapers off depending upon blade geometry etc.

However internal cooling is also very very complicated, and in fact is a true measure of Casting technology maturity attained (wrt mass manufacturing pov – already done may many years back in India, albeit at a lab level).
There’s a post of mine, in this very thread, wrt the interplay of casting tech vis-à-vis fabricating internal cooling channels/structures in an hollow blade – pls go thru that, for further understanding on this aspect.
(hint: 3D manufacturing tech is extensively used for mould manufacturing etc, and then there are issues wrt shrinkage warping stress etc etc etc).

So, point is, the above mentioned HTSE HPT blades may not need too much of air-cooling etc (but there may as well be some) as the max TeT is quite close to what TBC coating are able to endure.
However for even higher TeT applications (like in Kaveri/Kabini and of course other contemporary turbofans like M88/F404/F414 etc), there’s no way out except for further advancement in the blade cooling tech.

If you look very carefully, at the video I posted just before this one, there’s a fleeting glimpse of laser drilled holes on the Kaveri/Kabini blades (and there are many photos available on internet as well).
Obviously, that was enough to take you to 1455deg C levels (and maybe even slightly higher, one never knows, what gets published vs what is truly achieved actually) – but further 150-200 deg C enhancement will require scaling atleast a few technology gen hurdles wrt blade cooling tech.

Until ofcourse, we somehow, master bilayer TBC, of say, Lanthanum Zirconate (LZ) over Yttrium Stabilized Zirconia (YSZ) etc where-in these 1250deg C limits are not there.
(hint: already mastered and applied for static applications in Kaveri)
F119 etc uber turbofans surely would be using them, to achieve those stupendous TeT values, right (one would never know, as of course, these aspects are, and should be, classified). But those are for some other day …


PS: Betw what about the stators (read vanes) – they are the ones, and not the rotor blades of a turbine, who actually “first experiences” the true-blue TeT of the gas. Can’t they be made from Cobalt based Ni-superalloys (the tensile etc stress management there-in are quite different from those of rotor blades).
(Hint: Pls refer to the Kaveri gyan thread for for further analysis and exploration)

PPS: Edited to include a URL from one of my earlier posts.
Last edited by maitya on 21 Feb 2023 13:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

such a wonderfully informative post, Maityaji! Thank you for the detailing. My expertise is with radars, so not familiar with the engine & materials side of things beyond the basics.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Lisa »

From my previous post

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 897333.cms

Aero India 2023: Committed to jet engine project with India, ..

"BENGALURU: The UK is committed to make its biggest capability transfer in its history as part of the UK-India plan to co-create a jet engine to Indian specifications, said Alex Chalk, UK minister for defence procurement, on Monday."...This is not like other platforms where India would have to seek permissions to export either," said a UK delegation that was at Aero India 2023.
Addressing select media persons, Chalk said there were currently five nations that have this (jet engine) technology. "...India will be the sixth and it will be a sovereign make-in-India capability. The UK already has a head start on it and spent two years in intensive work including going through the concept phase," Chalk said."

P.S. I may be corrected, I remember Abdul Kalam saying that such offers only occur after we have developed the necessary inhouse and furthermore such offers are made to get us to cease our own development.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

Thomas ji's comments are extremely well timed, considering our negotiations are going full steam with both US and UK. It seems to be a game of poker right now. May be we kaveri is already there, may be it is not. The dark period between the project closure in 2014 to 2022 have given us the opacity required. Stakes are high, Tessy Thomas is a person nobody can ignore. Knowing it is Ajit Doval who steered the talks on iCET, extracting the best deal would involve some mis-information for sure. Fingers crossed.
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