Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Misha wrote:Only if we can have a IL 78 FTB which can act as refuelling tanker in normal days..... I mean if we can have a IL 78 refueller which if outfitted to be converted to FTB in few days :idea:
Naah! That's not enough.

Here's a better idea: Cargo on even days, refueler on even days and engine test bed on weekends.
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by V_Raman »

we want to flog a specialized piece of equipment for mundane use cases - not right. it is not that commoditized yet...
SriKumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2243
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SriKumar »

For those who believe getting a flying testbed is a matter of grabbing an AI 747 and painting a HAL logo on it etc. please check this link. It is a flying testbed for a radar that DRDO was testing. It crashed (1999) killing all eight on board: pilots and scientists. As I recall, it was replaced with some other plane later on.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 1999-01-25
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Nobody is suggesting it is easy but at this point given the huge amount of usefulness of jet propulsion, having a test bed available in India is essential, spending a few 100 million dollars is very essential.

Without it I don't see us developing Aero engines
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2223
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

SriKumar wrote:For those who believe getting a flying testbed is a matter of grabbing an AI 747 and painting a HAL logo on it etc. please check this link. It is a flying testbed for a radar that DRDO was testing. It crashed (1999) killing all eight on board: pilots and scientists. As I recall, it was replaced with some other plane later on.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 1999-01-25
No it was not replaced with another aircraft but the entire project was shutdown to be reborn as the DRDO NETRA
Most of us know what a testbed is and it is not a repainting project but a conversion by a specialist, also all engine OEMs have commercial aircrafts converted to testbeds
Beloved Qantas 747 becomes Rolls-Royce flying testbed
shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1385
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by shaun »

SriKumar wrote:For those who believe getting a flying testbed is a matter of grabbing an AI 747 and painting a HAL logo on it etc. please check this link. It is a flying testbed for a radar that DRDO was testing. It crashed (1999) killing all eight on board: pilots and scientists. As I recall, it was replaced with some other plane later on.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 1999-01-25
What an outlandish claim . The rotodome collapsed due to weak pylons and this is outright modification with change of weight and CG affecting AD behavior too . Flying test bed for engine testing certification with a 4 engined Ac have enough redundancy to mitigate one engine failure. Of course Ac will be staffed with gadgetry instead of Px.
SriKumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2243
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SriKumar »

'Weak pylons....', That is interesting. Is there a accident report anywhere on the internet?
Who designed these pylons (HAL? ADA?).

There will be some pylon re-design (or new completely new pylons) needed for a flying testbed, along with some potential modification of airframe. So who will design these pylons (ADA perhaps?) and flight-test the flying testbed? Pylon design is a task unto itself, and given past history of the crash (where 4 pilots and 4 scientists were killed) the topic of airframe re-design/modification will be approached with twice the caution. At a minimum, I think it will involve getting (some) design information of the airframe itself (i.e. Boeing Co. will likely have to cooperate.).
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Aditya_V wrote:Nobody is suggesting it is easy but at this point given the huge amount of usefulness of jet propulsion, having a test bed available in India is essential, spending a few 100 million dollars is very essential.

Without it I don't see us developing Aero engines
To see how important test-beds are, we should all watch the Hamara Tejas Episode on Test Rigs on YouTube. Dr. Kota Harinarayana explains how the test beds are as important as the aircraft itself, how it took them 5 years to setup the Iron-Bird, how its a gift that keeps on giving etc.

He also explains how it used to cost 1-2 crores per test in the 1980s for a foreign test rig (for Brake Dynamometer). How they got the local one built for 50 Lakhs, which gets used umpteen times not just for the Tejas but for all aircraft in our service!

If we don't invest in test-beds, it shows that we are not serious enough.
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 03 Dec 2021 11:32, edited 2 times in total.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Here is the embed of this must-watch video!

asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 373
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by asbchakri »

This talks about "Ganga" Project, is this a valid news or just speculation.



How do you embed the Video.
Last edited by asbchakri on 04 Dec 2021 05:45, edited 2 times in total.
m_saini
BRFite
Posts: 767
Joined: 23 May 2020 20:25

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by m_saini »

asbchakri wrote:How do you embed the Video.
Take that code after ?v= (minus the timestamp) and put it like so
[youtube] (put that here) [/youtube]. So just replace "(put that here)" with SAdSGGSIBlo
asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 373
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by asbchakri »

m_saini wrote:
asbchakri wrote:How do you embed the Video.
Take that code after ?v= (minus the timestamp) and put it like so
[youtube] (put that here) [/youtube]. So just replace "(put that here)" with SAdSGGSIBlo
Thank you :)
Brad Goodman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2426
Joined: 01 Apr 2010 17:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Brad Goodman »

Prem Kumar wrote:
To see how important test-beds are, we should all watch the Hamara Tejas Episode on Test Rigs on YouTube. Dr. Kota Harinarayana explains how the test beds are as important as the aircraft itself, how it took them 5 years to setup the Iron-Bird, how its a gift that keeps on giving etc.

He also explains how it used to cost 1-2 crores per test in the 1980s for a foreign test rig (for Brake Dynamometer). How they got the local one built for 50 Lakhs, which gets used umpteen times not just for the Tejas but for all aircraft in our service!

If we don't invest in test-beds, it shows that we are not serious enough.
Watching Iron Bird raised one question in my mind. The Tejas near accident that happened while testing software upgrade why wasnt that thing caught on Iron Bird? Is there any more info on what really went wrong ?
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4040
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by suryag »

There was an iphone failure in london in 2012 after an ios upgrade despite atleast a million hours of verification, test platforms will always try to get as close to the real thing as possible but there is always a gap even if it is asympotically trending to convergence with the real platform. Whenever such thing happens most V&V teams go back revisit V&V plans and do a deep dive on the escape and try to plug the hole in coverage. work of V&V teams is like intel agencies as long as the product works properly no one sees their existence and they are questioned when some escape happens
SriKumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2243
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SriKumar »

Brad Goodman wrote: Watching Iron Bird raised one question in my mind. The Tejas near accident that happened while testing software upgrade why wasnt that thing caught on Iron Bird? Is there any more info on what really went wrong ?
The iron bird test facility does not actually fly (you can see in the video it is inside a room) . Some problems can be tested and caught this way, but not all problems. Those problems that manifest only while flying at altitude will not be caught here. (BTW, the Iron Bird is to test the LCA parts and not the engine, from the video anyway. At 23:50, they show the arrestor hook for the NCLA. ).
arvin
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Prem Kumar wrote:
He also explains how it used to cost 1-2 crores per test in the 1980s for a foreign test rig (for Brake Dynamometer). How they got the local one built for 50 Lakhs, which gets used umpteen times not just for the Tejas but for all aircraft in our service!

If we don't invest in test-beds, it shows that we are not serious enough.
Thanks for posting these numbers.

One crore in the 80s should have been lot of money. If it used to cost that much for a static test rig, a flying test rig hired overseas would be way expensive than that. Russia would be charging in multiples of crores for each test flight.

I came across some numbers in Annual report of MOD for 2010-2011 for money allocated for flight testing.
https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/AR1011.pdf
On page 214 of the report:
It is a fact that the project has been delayed by about 12 years, but during the period 1989 -2010, Kaveri, indeed, made a considerable progress, attaining technical maturity and establishing technology base by completing high altitude testing of Kaveri. Though the project cost is enhanced to Rs. 2839 Cr. (FE Rs 1730 Cr.), only Rs. 2105 Cr. was authorized for interim flight trials of Kaveri (first phase), keeping balance Rs. 734 Cr. for final version Kaveri engine (which has not been authorized to be utilized so far).
If I read it correctly, 2105 Cr is allocated for intermediate flight trials alone. Since flight trials cant be done in India, I can only imagine how much of it was paid to Russia. As a bonus, they would have got a free look at our test data.
Even with back of envelope calculations, I feel we could have got a fully instrumented flying test bed on a second hand aircraft with that kind of money.
Had that kind of money been spent in India exactly like it was done for LCA test rig as mentioned in the previous post, this would have been a one time investment that would have not only accelerated Kaveri development many time over but also benefitted other aerospace projects.

Ok. That 2105 Cr is inclusive of all engineering design effort and flight trials. Till March 2020, we have spent Rs 2032 crore on Kaveri Project.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 982412.ece
The technical challenges were faced in areas such as advanced avionics, digital fly-by-wire, composites, weapon simulation, testing and integration facilities and non-availability of raw materials, Mr. Naik said. Of the specified amount, ₹9063.96 crore was spent on LCA and ₹2032 crore on the Kaveri Engine.
Kailash
BRFite
Posts: 1083
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 02:32

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

Ganga seems to be a complete speculation at this point. Looks more like a routine Al31 maintenance tender.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Kailash wrote:Ganga seems to be a complete speculation at this point. Looks more like a routine Al31 maintenance tender.

Kailash ji,

AFAIK, koraput has the Al31 maintenance work sewn up

Highly unlikely that the Govt or the russkis will allow any outsider to tender for such work, if that is what you are talking about
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

shaun wrote:
SriKumar wrote:For those who believe getting a flying testbed is a matter of grabbing an AI 747 and painting a HAL logo on it etc. please check this link. It is a flying testbed for a radar that DRDO was testing. It crashed (1999) killing all eight on board: pilots and scientists. As I recall, it was replaced with some other plane later on.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 1999-01-25
What an outlandish claim . The rotodome collapsed due to weak pylons and this is outright modification with change of weight and CG affecting AD behavior too . Flying test bed for engine testing certification with a 4 engined Ac have enough redundancy to mitigate one engine failure. Of course Ac will be staffed with gadgetry instead of Px.
AFAIK, no Indian company is, as yet, capable of doing such work and getting the same certified.

our friends the israelis are capable though

this will have to be certified by DGCA

Boeing 747 FTB conversion

Image


Boeing 747 FTB conversion

Image


Did the kaveri fly like this.............IL-76 FTB conversion

Image


The IL-76 which flew with Kaveri engine at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), in Moscow on November 03, 2010.

IL-76 FTB conversion

Image


Image
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

What's new with the Ganga project ?..new turbofan design or resurrected kaveri ?
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

OR is it Reverse engineering or further Indianizing the Saturn AL31FP with Russian permission (TOT for manufacturing)
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

If we don't have facts let's not speculate on the new Turbofan.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:If we don't have facts let's not speculate on the new Turbofan.
If there was a new turbofan, wouldn't it have come out in the public domain...

there is nothing secret about development work, especially one requiring huge outlays of public resources
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 17601?s=20 ---. New advanced turbofan engine to be developed jointly by India and France (Safran) to be used onboard AMCA Mk-2. Will have next gen FADEC and low IR signature.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 93987?s=20 ---> France will be the lead technology developer for this project: French media.

https://twitter.com/Abhishe97462419/sta ... 47168?s=20 ---> What about the IPR and cost?

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 44194?s=20 ---> To be jointly shared.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Critical breakthrough brings India one step closer to building its own fighter jet engine
https://eurasiantimes.com/critical-brea ... ngine/?amp
02 June 2021

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/147 ... 07686?s=20 ---> BTW, better SCBs than what the Russkis supply for the AL-31FP have been developed and fabricated by the DMRL/MIDHANI/HAL Koraput combo.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/147 ... 77889?s=20 ---> I am sure some of you remember the 'INFRA' engine presentations.

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 52992?s=20 --->

Image
YashG
BRFite
Posts: 936
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Lol

In one post i read safran to jointly develop aero engine with india and then in next l read breakthrough in engine-tech by india in making even better SCBs.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

YashG wrote:Lol

In one post i read safran to jointly develop aero engine with india and then in next l read breakthrough in engine-tech by india in making even better SCBs.
Yes , just that the western companies see last mile opportunities... sdfr vs meteor is gonna be next
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Looks like RM Rajnath Singh has some sort of in-principle agreement with France to "jointly build an aircraft engine". AMCA-MK2 seems to be the natural implication. The news made its appearance in a cryptic way.

If this is a way for India to boost France's esteem while getting what we want, then its a very smart move
SantoshV
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 1
Joined: 06 Dec 2021 00:37

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SantoshV »

Current configuration of Kaveri produces 50 KN thrust, is this not enough for a commercial jet airliner that can desi made ? What stops HAL developing one ? There should be a commercial spin off too with defense developments. Any comments ?
(my first post, I am a newbie ! )
Last edited by SantoshV on 20 Dec 2021 06:50, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

SantoshV wrote:...
I have updated your username. Thanks.
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by V_Raman »

I dont trust france with engines - let them first give the know-how and know-why for the shakti ALH engine for which we have paid them loads over the years.
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10388
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

We already have an alternative to Shakti and it is in the testing. So we do not need anything on that.

French and Britshits are trying to get us to join them in making advanced Jet engines. So RNS statement must have been aimed at Brits to speed up their offer and better the offer from the French.

In respect of the Kaveri being a commercial jet engine, I am a mango man here but I thought the specifications of a fighter engine is for performance and reasonable reliability and that of a commercial engine is endurance and near-perfect reliability.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Yagnasri wrote:We already have an alternative to Shakti and it is in the testing. So we do not need anything on that.
Which is the Shakti alternative? Are you referring to the HAL HTSE-1200?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 00069?s=20 --->

The keyword in this engine discussion is "strategic partnership".

I am waiting for answers for following before I celebrate:

* France will have IPR (Intellectual Property Rights)?
* Likely a tri party agreement or Sarkaari companies out?
* If this a range of engines or just K10 class for AMCA MK2?

Image
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Interesting that the Ganga turbo fan idea is being discussed.

Lootyens leaks like a collander.
Barath
BRFite
Posts: 474
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Barath »

SantoshV wrote:Current configuration of Kaveri produces 50 KN thrust, is this not enough for a commercial jet airliner that can desi made ? What stops HAL developing one ? There should be a commercial spin off too with defense developments. Any comments ?
(my first post, I am a newbie ! )
Commercial jet engines focus on efficiency and reliability. Fuel costs account for 10% to 12% of operating expenses. and represent one of the two top expenses for an airline. Thus high bypass turbofans. (Kaveri is a low bypass one) Also, developing and validating an engine and integrating to an airplane is expensive. Thus aircraft OEMs decide during development which engines are committed for the program. Most airlines in India prefer to buy Boeing or Airbus

Compare the state of the art
The LEAP family has three siblings: 1A which powers the Airbus A320neo and produces 24,500 to 35,000 lbs thrust, 1B for the Boeing 737 MAX family which produces 23,000 to 28,000 lbs thrust and 1C for the Chinese COMAC C919 with 27,890 to 30,000 lbs thrust.

Kaveri produces 11,687 lbf in military power.

So the question is what plane will airliners buy, and what engines will those need. The thing about commercial jets is that they are commercial.

Maybe follow up discussion can be in newbie thread. ?
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10388
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

Rakesh wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:We already have an alternative to Shakti and it is in the testing. So we do not need anything on that.
Which is the Shakti alternative? Are you referring to the HAL HTSE-1200?
Yes sir.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

The tweet by Aman Routray has a slide from a Safran person showing "full TOT for engines for Tejas & AMCA, including know-how & know-why. Ensuring future autonomy for India in this area. Something that they've never done with anyone". Pretty much in black & white!

Sharing it here again: https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 4333652992

So, I think there is a fundamental change in thinking. Question is: what strings does it come with?
basant
BRFite
Posts: 889
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

Probably IPR. You can't probably export or develop further without their consent.
Post Reply