Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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mody
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

For the 98KN engine I think the target is 72KN dry and 98KN wet thrust.
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Post by brar_w »

SSridhar wrote:
ShivS wrote:Events have put the GE414 at serious sanctions risk
Is this based on any realistic assessment or conjecture?
Trying to wrap my head around how unknown "events" could have put the F414 but not the F404 at risk or the numerous other US defense products that continue to get operated by the IA, and IAF.
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Post by Aditya_V »

mody wrote:For the 98KN engine I think the target is 72KN dry and 98KN wet thrust.
That's a tough ratio, in Ge 404IN20 dry thrust is 55kn and wet thrust is 85Kn ~ 65%, generally dry to wet thrust is around 66%
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Post by k prasad »

maitya wrote: kprasad, you have something in your mind isn't it? Say so.
Different prasad, saar? I think you might've been referring to Prasad's comment above, but I can assure you we are two different people :-).
Prasad wrote:Idiots
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Post by ks_sachin »

Prasad wrote:Idiots
Sirji please elaborate...
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Post by Pratyush »

brar_w wrote:
SSridhar wrote: Is this based on any realistic assessment or conjecture?
Trying to wrap my head around how unknown "events" could have put the F414 but not the F404 at risk or the numerous other US defense products that continue to get operated by the IA, and IAF.
It's not just F414 it's everything.
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Post by ShivS »

Pratyush wrote:
brar_w wrote:
Trying to wrap my head around how unknown "events" could have put the F414 but not the F404 at risk or the numerous other US defense products that continue to get operated by the IA, and IAF.
It's not just F414 it's everything.
It is conjecture- lots of possible future paths from here but the chance of Russian action around Ukraine is quite high and there will be a response to that targeting Russian defence industry. Odds of some form of CAATSA based action against India have risen sharply. Both sides will try hard to find a solution but that’s where we might wind up. Odds of a bad outcome have risen sharply in the last 3/4 months.

Turkey has has CAATSA imposed in it but is operating F16s - not sure if this applies to past clearances as well.

India will definitely look to de risk it’s suppliers and incremental development will swing away from the US
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Post by YashG »

ShivS wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
It's not just F414 it's everything.
Both sides will try hard to find a solution but that’s where we might wind up.
By both sides, if you mean India. I dont think India needs to do anything about CAATSA. It is US's domestic law and their responsibility. If it hinders their foreign policy what can India do about CAATSA. We can do business as usual.
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Post by Neela »

maitya wrote:
This will be a very very creditable technical “match-up” with the contemporary turbofans available to us (to us, by uh so benevolent Unkil - for a steep price, like ~$9m for a 404, right?) – aka the so-called 4th Gen Turbofan listed in the above slides.
Per news reports and inputs from learned folks
LCA: $716M for 99 engines ($7.2M/engine)

In comparison, the recent Hornet upgrade was $104M for 28 engines ($3.7M/engine)

We have had additional orders for PVs and TDs. I assume there are about 140-150 F404 engines that we have paid for and we can assume a total outgo of $1B.

Some additional relevant info regarding lifetime, engines per airframe.
Engines per aircraft is an old concept now as far as Western engines go. The engine S/N remains the same, modules/parts are replaced as an when needed. So technically speaking one engine per aircraft (plus some spares for the fleet).
We can think of the total parts used in terms of total equivalent engines but it becomes tricky to bookkeep when nozzle has 500hr life, turbines 1000-2000hrs, compressors 4-6000hrs and some other components are for lifetime.

Besides, LCA's structural life is not fully determined yet. Last I check it was certified at 1000hrs

as interim. Full scale fatigue testing will take many yrs for full life certification. While LCA is designed for 2500hrs it is expected to have much higher life than that due to its conservative design. In fact
@Indrani1_Roy
said once it could be as high as 9000hrs..!
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Post by Neela »

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Post by Armuan »

Questions to the gurus:
When Shakti engine for Dhruv was developed, was there a similar talk of collaborative development? I am not aware if Safran ever shared the hot section technology. Aren't we still completely dependent on them? I am not sure if that was the understanding from the beginning.
Would we be dependent on them for the turbine blade and associated hot sections for the 125KN engine?

There were some noises in the media that RR offered to co-develop the engine, after which India would own the IP and associated technologies. Perhaps it was just a soundbite.
I did not see a similar news or detail with the Safran deal. Why did we choose Safran over RR? Existing/ prior working relationship with Safran? Did they offer a deal similar to RR?

Just wondering why Safran. From the outside, RR deal appeared better.
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Post by Pratyush »

I think that we can manage the hot sections ourselves.

We just need hand holding to needed to take the project to conclusion.

The non AB Kaveri has given us enough confidence in that.
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Post by Prem Kumar »

Safran had a detailed presentation where they explicitly promised to share the know-how and the know-why. They were pitching hard for this project

Why they would share these is anyone's guess. Needless to say, we need to take their promises with a pinch of salt. But jet engines is an area where we really need help to make quantum jumps towards Atmanirbhar. So, this is good news, provided we can keep Safran's feet to the fire for the billions we will give them.

The idea of an SPV to manage this is a good one. Shows focus, which this project needs. I am not sure about the "Private industry partner" part. Which organization other than GTRE is even remotely capable of executing this? Hope GTRE is the nodal Indian agency, with an embedded private partner who ramps up by working alongside both GTRE & Safran. Hope they rope in academia like the IITs & others too. They can also learn, contribute and establish their own centres of excellence for jet engines.

We should see young, ambitious engineering grads get together with veterans to create engine startups, like we are beginning to see in the space sector
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Post by Neela »

France is a country which in-sources all its military R&D and has a lot of strategic independence. Rafale success story is enough proof to continue that way. But looking forward, when big markets like India start their own R&D on air-frames and engines, they have a 2 front problem. The stand to lose the Indian market completely and the products in 2 decades will compete with theirs (both price and tech wise) . The LCA induction must have not only shown what reality is , it might have made them aware of a potential markets in AMCA , Naval variants where they think they stand a chance to enter. But it comes at a price of giving tech which they know India will reach eventually on their own. Which leaves France with what...a 2-3 decade window to make money with their existing tech ?
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Post by Cyrano »

France needs to augment production capacity of its aviation, ship, submarine, missile and military components, and nuclear tech industry to fulfill orders, maintenance MRO and improve profits to invest in next generation of innovation.

India is just about the only right partner that won't blatantly steal it's IP and compete dishonestly.

It can be a win-win in a multi polar world.
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Post by Barath »

DRDO and Safran to develop engine for indigenous stealth fighter
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 090271.ece

The [Kaveri] project, which ran for 30 years with an expenditure of ₹2,035.56 crore, before being shelved, saw the development of nine full prototype engines and four core engines.

--

Also talks about Safran/DRDO JV imminent for engine of AMCA Mk2 . about progress of AMCA with details , TEDBF progressing
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Post by csharma »

Will West(US) allow India to have aircraft engine tech through tech transfer?
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Post by Pratyush »

csharma wrote:Will West(US) allow India to have aircraft engine tech through tech transfer?
It's not tech transfer. It is tech development under foreign assistance.
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Post by hgupta »

I really don't get this.

Why are we giving billions of dollars to a western entity that will hold the IPR rights? The IPR rights should stay with India. And why are we not giving enough money to to GRSE to make a better Kaveri. As far as I am concerned, the problem with GRSE is that they were not given enough money. $500 million for 20 years of development is nothing. It needs at least $5 billion of investment which goes to build the necessary foundations of knowledge and research labs and flying testbeds. IIRC, G&E just spent over $10 billion just to create a better version of the GE 404 or something like that even though the original GE 404 was working just fine.
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Post by Barath »

> ? The IPR rights should stay with India.

"and an AMCA Mk2 with an advanced, more powerful engine planned to be jointly developed, Dr. Deodhare added.

Once the agreement is concluded with France, development of the aircraft as well as the engine will progress parallelly to meet the timelines, officials acknowledged. The manufacturing and production of the aircraft is planned through a Special Purpose Vehicle, which will also involve private industry."

if it is jointly developed, the natural assumption is that IPR will be held jointly. Though this would, I'm sure be the subject of negotiation too. The manufacturing will be through the SPV. This is predominantly project for engines for Indian aircraft right now. The real payoff though might be capability enhancement through this project . Would you be able to take that capability to the next project ?
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Post by YashG »

^^^
Brahmos or AK203 SPV would be the blueprint of this SPV. If you see, the earlier it comes out with an engine, the better for french. Since each engine this SPV sells will make france money at the expense of US. A good way to get back at US, if french want to.
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Post by Vips »

csharma wrote:Will West(US) allow India to have aircraft engine tech through tech transfer?
Like UK or other European countries France is not US's lapdog. It has its own strategic policies.

You think France is going to follow US policies on Military sales after what US did to its Australian Submarine Order?

Why would France listen to the US unless it is ready to pay for the opportunity cost of not doing business with India.
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Post by vera_k »

I found this article from 2021. Seems like the the KMGT development has been concluded, and the ball is in the Navy's court to say where this engine will be used and what other versions are needed.

DRDO’s Turbo Fan Engine For UAVs Will Make India Self-Reliant In This Complex And Critical Technology
DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has developed a 12 MW Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT) engine as derivative of Kaveri Aero Engine. KMGT demonstrated it’s performance in Test bed at Naval Dockyard, Vizag.
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Post by k prasad »

vera_k wrote:I found this article from 2021. Seems like the the KMGT development has been concluded, and the ball is in the Navy's court to say where this engine will be used and what other versions are needed.

DRDO’s Turbo Fan Engine For UAVs Will Make India Self-Reliant In This Complex And Critical Technology
DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has developed a 12 MW Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT) engine as derivative of Kaveri Aero Engine. KMGT demonstrated it’s performance in Test bed at Naval Dockyard, Vizag.
The LM2500 has a power rating of 22 MW, and the LM2500+ at 30 MW. At the current power rating, KMGT will most likely be useful only for frigates or smaller IN ships. Unless we're able to significantly uprate the KMGT.
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Post by Pratyush »

The important part is getting the engine in production at the hands of a production agency. Regardless of which ship is utilising the engine.

Because once it's in production the learnings from production agency will result in further optimization and improvements in the engine.

It will also provide confidence to Indian engeneering companies to further invest in jet engines and marine and power GTs
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Post by SRajesh »

k prasad wrote:
vera_k wrote:[/url]
The LM2500 has a power rating of 22 MW, and the LM2500+ at 30 MW. At the current power rating, KMGT will most likely be useful only for frigates or smaller IN ships. Unless we're able to significantly uprate the KMGT.
Sir per wiki
Zorya in Kolkata class deliver 16.55 per engine. and has 4 engines
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Post by vera_k »

k prasad wrote:The LM2500 has a power rating of 22 MW, and the LM2500+ at 30 MW. At the current power rating, KMGT will most likely be useful only for frigates or smaller IN ships. Unless we're able to significantly uprate the KMGT.
It could perhaps be used on the Coast Guard's OPVs to start with. Those are not small ships any more, but would provide more than enough power.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

An atmanirbhar flight plan for fighter jets
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/03/an-a ... ghter.html
04 March 2022
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Post by arvin »

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india ... 21731.html
Aviation regulator Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has deregistered Air India’s four Boeing 747 jumbo jets that were not in operation since February 2020, sources said on Wednesday.
It is not clear what will be done with these four planes now, they added.
Sorry state of affairs if it is not clear what will be done with such strategic assets.

Maybe Safran-GTRE 110 KN engine will also be flight tested in Russia.
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Post by Rakesh »

arvin wrote:Sorry state of affairs if it is not clear what will be done with such strategic assets.

Maybe Safran-GTRE 110 KN engine will also be flight tested in Russia.
Sirjee, they got time to entertain 114 MRFA contest. But "dekho-no-money" for logical stuff like above. Medium weight fighters are vital for the nation's security. 114 phoren fighters have to come!

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... v_cjn-uRvQ ---> Report: Kaveri dry engine hit by delays due to lack of testing facilities in India (no high altitude testing facility or Flight Test Bed). Kaveri dry engine is going to be used onboard Ghatak UCAV.
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Post by SriKumar »

Rakesh wrote:
arvin wrote:Sorry state of affairs if it is not clear what will be done with such strategic assets.

Maybe Safran-GTRE 110 KN engine will also be flight tested in Russia.
Sirjee, they got time to entertain 114 MRFA contest. But "dekho-no-money" for logical stuff like above. Medium weight fighters are vital for the nation's security. 114 phoren fighters have to come!

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... v_cjn-uRvQ ---> Report: Kaveri dry engine hit by delays due to lack of testing facilities in India (no high altitude testing facility or Flight Test Bed). Kaveri dry engine is going to be used onboard Ghatak UCAV.
The wording on this tweet is weird. Wiki says a UCAV is an unmanned flying plane. Sounds kinda like a flying test bed (and at any altitude) :-? .
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Post by Pratyush »

4 Boeing 747s have just gotten decertified. One of them could be procured by GTRE as an engine test bed.
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Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... v_cjn-uRvQ ---> Report: Kaveri dry engine hit by delays due to lack of testing facilities in India (no high altitude testing facility or Flight Test Bed). Kaveri dry engine is going to be used onboard Ghatak UCAV.
For one hopeful second, I was praying that this was a very, very old tweet. I should've known better. This is the same story for decades, quite literally... I remember reporting this same issue from AI 2009's seminar. 13 years later, same old story. I remember, at that time, the GTRE director mentioned that getting such testing facilities would cost only 100-200 crores or so, or a little more.
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Post by SinghS »

Conclude Jet engine talks with France in a month: Defence Ministry to officials
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 241791.cms
02 May 2022
"The talks had hit a deadlock after it emerged in detailed studies that a part of the offsets - just over 250 million Euro - could be utilised for the project while the remaining 500 million euros had to be raised by the government. Efforts are now on to find a way to take the project ahead by reducing the costs."
--- This part is beyond any logic, both as to what Safran has been doing with the offsets, what is so technical about it? And also how our MOD baboons are haggling for a small change about a national priority mission...when they didn't care about $295million paid for FGFA.
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Post by Rakesh »

FGFA - while vaporware - is the entire package (airframe + turbofan + radar + sensors), while components (just turbofan) is not. So for bean counters, sinking money into FGFA is more worthwhile than in components. The US $250 million spent on FGFA - while tragic - is not something that bean counters can rationalize on components. We have bean counters for decision makers, that is the problem.
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Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote:FGFA - while vaporware - is the entire package (airframe + turbofan + radar + sensors), while components (just turbofan) is not. So for bean counters, sinking money into FGFA is more worthwhile than in components. The US $250 million spent on FGFA - while tragic - is not something that bean counters can rationalize on components. We have bean counters for decision makers, that is the problem.
Then they are counting the wrong kind of daal, sirjee. Unfortunately, a lot of this has to do with the lack of military & technical knowledge among the finance-minded babus. The real comparison here should not be between a "system" (FGFA) vs "component (engine). In fact, I would argue that such a comparison ought not to be made at all. Instead, the comparison should be based on projected savings on procurement costs for an equivalent number of foreign-acquired engines, as well as future pay-off to the Indian economy due to local production, etc.

We bought 99 GE404 engines for about $7 mn each. Assuming the more advanced engine (say F414+) would set us back $10 mn a pop, a simple back-of-envelope calculation could set the numbers. If we are to require 300 aircraft using this engine in the future (a conservative number, hopefully), each aircraft would be expected to go through 2-3 engines over its lifetime (averaged to 2.5), so a procurement order of at least 750 engines. If we manage to save even $2 mn per engine by co-development and local production, that's $1.5 billion saved, and that's not even counting the money that gets put back into the Indian economy.

This is a risky investment, for sure, because we arent assured of success even though a fair amount of money is being pumped into R&D. The $750 mn I guess makes it a bit thin in terms of margin, hence the bean counting. My suspicion is that these are negotiating positions to derisk the program and reduce possible overruns in the future. That said, I think RM and PM should keep a close watch to ensure that this deal gets done to ensure our strategic interests.
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Post by Cyrano »

YashG wrote:
Cyrano wrote:I'd blame IAF for it - Modi or any PM can act only make good decisions upon correct information and sound advice. Any more will be OT here.
yes, the system is so built over decades that any political leader cant change it. Modi is an exception- he can do anything he wishes. But why should he expend so much of his political capital on setting the affairs straight in defence. It makes 0 political sense. Increasing indigenous defence production doesnt help u win an election. the common man who votes doesnt even understand difference bw screwdriver giri and domestic capabilities. Its useless for modi to spend time on improving defence - its political stupidity that he would never do.
I don't think Modi is that cynical. Though I've been critical of him on various subjects, on defence he has to go by what matters professionals and bureaucrats bring to his attention and the options they lay out and he is one who prefers to make a decision than dither. Our country has so many stables to clean no Modi can do it all in a lifetime.

The services outlive PMs, they are the experts and users, they need to think long term and push for atmanirbhar instead of acting like spoilt brats crying for shiny phoren toys with taxpayers' money when the Govt is pushing for indegenous. They stake their soldiers' lives not politicians. IMO.
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Post by YashG »

Cyrano wrote:
YashG wrote:
yes, the system is so built over decades that any political leader cant change it. Modi is an exception- he can do anything he wishes. But why should he expend so much of his political capital on setting the affairs straight in defence. It makes 0 political sense. Increasing indigenous defence production doesnt help u win an election. the common man who votes doesnt even understand difference bw screwdriver giri and domestic capabilities. Its useless for modi to spend time on improving defence - its political stupidity that he would never do.
I don't think Modi is that cynical. Though I've been critical of him on various subjects, on defence he has to go by what matters professionals and bureaucrats bring to his attention and the options they lay out and he is one who prefers to make a decision than dither. Our country has so many stables to clean no Modi can do it all in a lifetime.

The services outlive PMs, they are the experts and users, they need to think long term and push for atmanirbhar instead of acting like spoilt brats crying for shiny phoren toys with taxpayers' money when the Govt is pushing for indigenous. They stake their soldiers' lives not politicians. IMO.
Modi isnt cynical, he is very very intelligent. Period. He easily outsmarts any world leader on realpolitik currently in power in large economies. By FAR!

But thats exactly the reason he is wise enough to not go whole hog on defence matters. He would be foolish to put matters like LCH production or ATAGs as a priority over his political duties. If tomorrow we release order for 300 LCHs will it give him even one more seat ? No! Modi govt has done some good work on defence that cudnt be done in decades. But our defence mess needs a lot more work. LOT!

If you truly understand Modi, you will realise he is a superb leader, master planner and very business like focus on whats most important. Ruthless, efficient, never distracted. This kind of guy will go big after only those things that help him get the ultimate results. I dont see how LCH or ATAGS will get him anything in terms of 2024.
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Post by Prem Kumar »

This is a sad spectacle. Marine Kaveri has been talked about for a decade and nothing has come out of it. GTRE, like ADA, needs a kick up their rear-end. Mission level funding is required too, no doubt. But the organization seems to have no mojo
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