Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Roop
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Roop »

Pardon my ignorance, but does "TeT" mean Turbine Entry Temperature or Turbine Exit Temperature?

If "Entry", is that the same thing as Turbine Inlet Temperature?

TIA.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

I've seen it used interchangeably... that said, more informed aero-engine guroos could inform us whether there's any subtle difference between the two.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... called-tet suggests so, atleast vis-a-vis turbine engines for power generation
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India to buy Rs 150,000 cr worth of aero engines in a decade: MoD focus on engine technology
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/02/indi ... -aero.html
21 Feb 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rolls-Royce offers engine “co-creation” for India’s medium fighter
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/02/roll ... ation.html
14 Feb 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The MRO facility is a very good thing.

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/162 ... 49248?s=20 ---> GE plans to make F-414-INS6 engines for Tejas Mk2 in India. "We plan to manufacture a very significant portion of that engine here in India. Moreover MRO will also be done in the country." :- Youngje Kim, VP, Indo-Pacific Region, GE Aviation.

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1 ... 44321?s=20 ---> Kaveri derivative engine, vital for our UAV programs and more.

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Full ToT :mrgreen:

Air India order done, Rolls-Royce keen to partner with India for AMCA engine
https://theprint.in/defence/air-india-o ... e/1405637/
28 Feb 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

What does “full ToT” mean? They provide info on how to make screwdrivers also?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

hnair wrote:What does “full ToT” mean? They provide info on how to make screwdrivers also?
https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... 1wPt_GhV-A ---> As aerospace capital, the expression ToT was understood first in Bengaluru - it is half-Kannada. It stands for "Thiga Olage Thumb" - meaning thumb in your ass - the real meaning of "ToT".

Above tweet was in response to the tweet below....

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... 1wPt_GhV-A ---> The 98kN thrust producing GE-414 jet engines to be manufactured in India with 100% ToT.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

hnair wrote:What does “full ToT” mean? They provide info on how to make screwdrivers also?
Besides the ToT humor, the key sections like hot blades, some components etc are not transferred. They are simply imports and nothing much can be done. Screwdrivers, testing equipment, jigs, all come from the vendor. Sometimes the whole section does not pass QA and IAS Babu Def Prod, along with HAL and IAF huddle together to solve the issue and voila the vendor ships their entire new section which passed QA. This tamasha happens for all critical ToT products. India does not learn anything new. There is just more headcount and more expense. Of course India can proudly claim local manufacture etc. Some bright tech people can find some jugaad ways for certain stuff. The vendor instantly rejects it but secretly they may experiment with the ideas in their own labs.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, regarding
Will await the press release. the RR engine all details will be released soon.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kanoji »

Dry Kaveri engine sets up a new bench mark
GTRE achieves a breakthrough.

https://tfipost.com/2023/03/dry-kaveri- ... ench-mark/

Would request Aero Gurus to comment if this is some real breakthrough by GTRE that has been missed by the mainstream media.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

The news is very confusing and contradictory. Someone with zero knowledge of engineering wrote it.
1. It says that non-after burning engine was tested for 75 hours, and then miraculously in the second paragraph it proved the afterburning engine
2. I think most of our issues were (most not all), were mainly in the afterburning section, buzzing (vibrations that could not be solved) etc etc.
3. It looks like we have a decent handle on non-after burning engine. These (6 in number) will be tested as part of UCAV and ground run. I would say very smart strategy (since we lack platform to test engines). It comes with its risk though, testing unproved airframe with unproven engine. But since it is unmanned, few losses here and there should be OK.
4. In other news they have claimed that afterburning issues have also been solved. We have yet to test these new modification either in Moscow or India (except for ground run in India)
5. As other gurus are pointing out, in theory, we are stuck with material limitations that restrict this engine to certain lower output (as compared to state of art), even if all engineering problems are solved. But we would be in a better stage than Original F-404.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kanoji »

fanne wrote:The news is very confusing and contradictory. Someone with zero knowledge of engineering wrote it.
Thank you fanne ji for translating that article into plain English.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Deleted, double post ...
Last edited by maitya on 12 Mar 2023 15:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Upping the thread ...
In the context of the above, it seems this news item Exclusive | Indigenous Engine of Tejas on Its Way has been missed here.

Some relevant quotes, from Y Dileep, Director ADE, in AI23:
“I was also the director of GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) till a few weeks back. I must assure you that the development of the engine today is 73 kilonewtons as against 78 kilonewtons, which is the requirement with the Kaveri engine…it is all ready to go and efforts are on to fly the engine on the Tejas aircraft…very soon we will fly that," he told News18
.
Elaborating on the indigenous engine issue, he said, “Second is the dry engine of Kaveri for the strategic programme of unmanned combat aerial vehicles…which isn’t required after burner has completed and matured to a very high level of technology. A lot of improvements have been done to the engine. We are going to Russia for high-altitude testing for the engine. For the fourth-generation engine, the country has full capability to produce the engine. The Kaveri engine expected to be ready by 2024 or 2025. All tech is ready. If sanctions and funding come, it can be done in record time."
Reg the blue highlighted part, what is confusing is just what is being planned to be taken to Russia for High Altitude test ... as the Kaveri dry seems to have completed the high altitude testing (and achieved 48KN dry thrust etc) ... is the Kaveri itself being taken for further high-altitude testing , post success of the dry-Kaveri version?
Any news/updates on this ...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

‘Broken Barriers’: US Bullish On Jet Engine Tech-Sharing With India
https://news.abplive.com/india-at-2047/ ... al-1590061
22 March 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

GE's offer to share jet engine technology to India step in right direction
https://www.theweek.in/wire-updates/nat ... ndall.html
21 March 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

So, is Kendall referring to technologies that GE is willing to share with India WRT GE F-414 INS6 engine (98 kN wet), to be manufactured in India for the LCA II and AMCA tech demo?

Not to be confused with the 110 kN, that France, the UK, and GE are supposedly offering to co-design, co-develop, co-whatever?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

It's all too muddled and murky now. Always thought the carrier based fighter tender would be an indicator of how the engine contact might go. But discussions with France is stalled. There is a real need for GE as we have at least 3 platforms on the drawing board based on F414. If at there is some sense of risk reduction on US, we have only RR as the real alternative here.

How technologically behind are UK and France compared to the US?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rolls-Royce proposes new fighter jet engine for India
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/co ... 11724.html
11 April 2023
Rolls-Royce is reportedly willing to build an entirely new jet engine for India, as UK defence firms are tempted towards the the region.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by hgupta »

Rakesh wrote:Rolls-Royce proposes new fighter jet engine for India
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/co ... 11724.html
11 April 2023
Rolls-Royce is reportedly willing to build an entirely new jet engine for India, as UK defence firms are tempted towards the the region.

I am ok with this as long as they keep the engine manufacturing plant and IP rights in India and any money they make go back into the Indian economy and there are no sanctions against spares and supply, etc.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by drnayar »

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 48197.html

Godrej Aerospace, a division of Godrej and Boyce, is investing around Rs 500 crore in a new manufacturing facility at Khalapur, located about 70km from Mumbai. This greenfield project, spread out on 100 acres of land, is anticipated to be completed within three years, and will be devoted to the defence and aerospace markets, the company said.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

So summarising desi turbofan design and development effort, we are at:

1) As we all know the Dry-Kaveri (for UCAV application) was based on baseline K9 version but with a new redesigned Fan.
- Godrej was chosen to develop all the modules for 7-8 test engines required for certification of this engine.

Other than this there have been multiple reports wrt :
2) Uprating this Dry Kaveri engine and adding an A/B to it to produce a 60KN/90KN version - enough for Mk1/1A versions.
In comparision, F404-IN20 version produces 54KN/85KN.

2) Flight testing of the baseline K9 version (51KN/75KN) at 1235Kg - and baseline that design.

3) Incrementally develop the K10 version (58KN/90KN) at 1100Kg - this maybe same as pt 1 above
- This will require mastering multiple next-level-manufacturing-technology (e.g. SC HPT blades, Blisk, brand new Fan, mabe even CMC based LPT etc).
- TET of 1580-1600deg C (from 1455 deg C), OPR of 27:1 (from 21.7:1), but same BPR, Massflow rate etc.
This speculative K10 version is supposed to be of F414-INS6 technology level - 98KN thrust etc can be achieved by changing the BPR to 0.25:1 level (from 0.16:1).

4) Then there's talk of a K11 version where the weight further goes down to 950Kg etc ...

PS: This one post from Rakeshji probably has the most information about desi turbofan development effort, as many such threads combined together. So pls revisit it frequently ...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Upping this thread with a cross-post from the LCA Mk2 thread:
maitya wrote:
Rakesh wrote:There are limited paths India can take now;

* Import F414 turbofans directly from the US. More expensive route, but that is what is available. Your leverage is entirely in the US' hands.
.....
* Get a clean sheet turbofan design (minimum a decade) and install it on the Tejas Mk2. Along this path, get a pair of used A330s/B747s and use them as FTBs. Invest in further improving the Kaveri. Maitya-ji should chime in here, as he is the expert.
.....

Paging You Saar :)

Rakesh-ji, not an expert or anything, by any stretch of imagination :wink: ... more of somewhat of an careful observer, maybe.

And based on that, given the attitude (wrt funding, encouragement etc) on display, wrt funding/support etc, we are more or less destined for hand-me-down foreign turbofans :(( - and if that is so, then I firmly believe we should go for the best there is i.e. GE F404 and the F414 variants.

Preferably direct imports, but if some sort of screwdrivergiri can be arranged, nothing like it - as it will provide the netas to further sloganeering and tom-tom their achievements to aam junta etc. And as we all know, nothing is going to come about wrt indigenisation/atmanirbharata for turbofan design and development initiatives - but at least it will de-risk the parent programs, which are equally vital.

Now, if that's risky from platform availability in future combat situations etc, well, given our attitude on display wrt funding/supporting indigenous turbofan development initiatives, I don't think we deserve anything better. Isn't it?

I mean K9 (51KN/75KN at 1235Kg - suboptimal yes but brilliant for an ab-initio initiative) has been ready for almost an decade now - however, no initiative whatsoever towards making it fly on a LCA prototype and baseline the design.

Material tech and other component level tech improvements (eg HPC blisks, CMC based LPT, etc, etc) can always be brought in by and by, but getting the design baselined thru 1000s of hours of flight-testing, over the entire envelope, is absolutely vital.

Without the design baselined, there's not much of a hope of getting any follow-on improved versions inline quickly.

Ditto wrt getting a FTB created.

etc, etc.

And we dream of getting into a equal-IP-sharing-mode for 5th gen turbofan development etc - I mean there must be some limit of Mungerilal-Ke-Haseen-Sapne :roll:

Anyway, coming back to where we are wrt the Kaveri program is concerned, maybe this post of mine provides a good summary. Also, do note the public confirmation by the-very-recent-ex-GTRE-director:
all technology of a 4-gen turbofan exists indigenously - and it's a matter of funding, that's all.
So, let's see what we have got in the currently funded program - a 48.5KN dry thrust version (for UCAV application - and at 1180Kg).

1) Firstly, it has got, a brand-new Fan focusing more on high inlet pressure distortion tolerance and surge margin etc, due to serpentine intake of the platform etc.
It has got the same Fan PR (of 3.4:1) and same mass-flow rate (78Kg/s).
Now for std 4/4+ fighter applications with conventional air intake etc, the same fan can be tweaked go for 4:1 (for example) Fan PR.

2) Then there are reports of developing an "improved" HPC with higher stage-PR (current 6.4:1) - ostensibly to augment the thrust levels of the dry-thrust-variant to a 53-54KN (currently designed 46KN, achieved 48.5KN in Russia).
Sample this - roughly, a 4.5-5% improvement in Stage-PR (for a 6-stage HPC) will result ~27% increase in OPR (with same isentropic efficiency).

Normally higher Stage-PR can be achieved by improving the aerodynamic design of compressor blades and, to a smaller extent, by optimizing the compressor inlet and outlet geometry.

One example of improvement of aerodynamic design of compressor blades is improving the end-wall countouring (to prevent secondary losses, better distribution of Mach number across blade surface.

Another method is by increasing the rotational speed of the compressor-stages - can be achieved by going for lighter stages (say via blisk or even maybe blings) etc.

(Other methods like Increasing the number of compressor stages, Increasing the inlet air temperature etc are far more complex and may involve large redesign of the Core itself)

If successful, this will again be introduced to other versions/variants as well.

3) Then, also the baseline Kaveri did achieve 81KN wet thrust (with afterburner) but was unable to sustain it for longer duration etc (73-75KN sustained).
RCA supposedly revealed,

a) this is mainly due to certain shortcomings in the hot-section of the core (Kabini) - and one of the goals of the dry-thrust variant program (core being same) is to address those very shortcomings.

b) inadequate cooling of the A/B components, most probably, the exhaust nozzle flaps. Wrt which, there were reports that Bilayer TBC has been successfully tested on the exhaust nozzle flaps on "another" in-use-military-turbofan. So, this issue may also have been mitigated by now.

===============================================
A point of digression wrt Pts 1 and 2 above:
Increasing the Fan PR and the HPC Stage-PRs would have a dramatic impact on the OPR of Kaveri (or any of its variants) - OPR is currently at a very modest levels of 21.5:1 (F404-IN20 et all achieves 27.5:1 etc).
And as we all know (pls refer to the gyan thread), increase in OPR will definitely augment the dry thrust levels - but upto a point, beyond which the thrust levels will starts falling, if TeT is also not proportionately increased.

================================================

So, coming back to the topic, if GTRE et all, without any specific funding, is trying to somehow get a 58-60KN/88-90KN Kaveri variant (K10?), based on these "improvements" being achieved via the funded dry-thrust-variant program, then IMVHO it's not that much of a far-fetched idea/concept.
Any other serious/self-respecting nation would have gone all-out wrt budget-allocation/support of such programs independently, but then that's us (and our MoD's army of baboons) - so be it. :((

Of course then there are further dreams of a K11 program - another variant wrt 67KN/98KN at 950Kg etc. Which of course will require a complete redesign of the Core (read higher TeT for HPT, Bilayer TBC on rotors, better efficient HPC and Fan, CMC based LPT, higher mass-flow rate etc etc etc), and also almost every aspect of the turbofan itself.

==================================================
But before I end for today, pls bear with me with another point of digression:
Do note, achieving a higher Fan PR would definitely going to increase the mass-flow rate - which, though good news from a theoretical thrust increment pov etc, will require significant re-design (re-testing and thus years of re-validations) of the core itself.

One way to circumvent it of course is, increase the BPR sufficiently so that mass-flow thru the core remains same – which would mean, higher mass-flow thru bypass, and that itself will further augment the dry thrust levels. Of course, this will require the LPT to be improved so that this additional mass of bypass air-mass is further accelerated, increasing the dry-thrust levels.
And LPT improvements can be via maybe by making it lighter via CMC route or maybe by improving its efficiency via further redesign etc etc etc – so, that the torque available to the Fan is higher (so higher rotational speed).

==================================================
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

And the second one from the same thread:
maitya wrote:I think many here are not reading the posts carefully enough ... so the questions, that have been already answered for, keep coming up.

The current dry-Kaveri version is a K9 variant, and that is the only currently officially funded program (of Kaveri genre) in GTRE.
This dry version of the Kaveri, currently generates 48.5KN (design 46KN) and has a brand new fan that is optimized for tolerance against high degree of inlet pressure distortion - that are typical of serpentine inlets.
And moreover it still retains the Fan PR (of 3.4:1), BPR (of 0.16:1) and same mass-flow rate (78Kg/s) figures of the baseline Kaveri (K9).
Now which of the current programs uses serpentine inlet? UCAV/Ghatak for one - AMCA for another, but for it, the thrust-level requirements are much higher.

So that should answer the question regarding target-program for the dry-Kaveri version.

1) But then again conventional 4+ gen platforms don't have serpentine inlets - so all the compromises in the Fan done for this dry-variant, to allow for such high-degree of inlet pressure distortion, wouldn't be required.
So what it essentially means is, theoretically you can have another Fan with a higher SPR, and then it can be integrated with the rest of this dry-variant - and that would augment the dry thrust levels of that version of the Kaveri-derivative.
But that may need (depending upon the headroom available wrt these parameters) a slighter higher BPR (so that the mass-flow through the core remains as is) and also maybe slighter more efficient (or more powerful) LPT as well.
This is so because the overall dry-thrust levels of a turbofan comes from both the Fan and the Core - increasing mass-flow thru the Fan (and keeping the core as is) will, almost proportionately, increase the dry-thrust-from-Fan component.

2) But if, the HPCs of this dry-thrust variant iare also improved (and there are rumors of that being tried as well), the OPR (and the dry thrust levels as well) can be further increased as well. It's current OPR is same (so 21.5:1, a very modest achievement) as that of the baseline Kaveri (K9) variant.
Similarly the certain shortcomings in the hot-section of the core (same as that of Kabini in K9), can also be addressed.

Now all of these particular set of "improvements" (pt 2) can be undertaken as a part of the funded dry-Kaveri program, towards increase it's thrust levels even further.
An un-funded but a parallel program, implementing Pt 1 above, on the top of this "improved" dry-thrust-Kaveri-variant, then can create a brand new version of the Kaveri itself (K10?), towards achieving 58-60KN/88-90KN Kaveri variant, that's bang in the F404-IN20 territory (pls use your imagination wrt it's applicability/usage).

However though, if a 98KN Kaveri-variant (so F414-INS6 territory) is to be developed, on the back of this K10 development initiatives, then a fully-funded program would be required - as it will require some fundamental changes/improvements to the core (Kabini) itself. There's already a technology roadmap available (refer to Rakeshji's post in the Kaveri thread) from GTRE, towards achieving it - ofcourse, funding it etc is a pure GoI/MoD discretion, who are currently completely-and-single-mindedly focused :roll: on getting a "foreign partner" for the 120KN 5th gen turbofan dev initiative etc.

But very first step of doing any of these, is to baseline the baseline-Kaveri design (so K9) by flight-testing it thru the entire flight envelope - it can be done on a LCA PV/TD variants or maybe even in any of the twin engine platforms in current service (fat chance of IAF agreeing to "lend" any of these platforms - and Russia won't spare any).
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Effect of Serpentine Inlet on Fan design:
The curved or twisted nature of the serpentine inlet duct causes distortions mainly in terms of the swirl angle of the incoming airflow (inflow incidence angle) and also wrt variations in the velocity and pressure distribution of the incoming airflow. The extreme cases of pressure variations can also be due to flow separation at certain points, that creates regions of low-pressure or stagnant flow.

All of these would have major impact wrt uneven loading on the fan blades which will cause flutter and also can, in extreme scenarios, cause blade deformation etc.

All these are normally mitigated via even more aggressive design/implementation of the IGV (and maybe Variable IGVs) and also via further optimizing the aerodynamic design of airfoil profiles of the fan blades (the shape, twist, and solidity etc).

K9 already has had an IGV to mitigate inlet distortions etc, but that was for a std inlet design.

So this new version of the Fan on the dry-variant of Kaveri, implements further advanced variant of IGV and may be (almost certainly) further improvement of Fan blade airfoil designs. It's because of these "improvements", it's still able to maintain the same SPR (3.5:1), same massflow (78kg/sec) in the same BPR (1.6:1) regime, despite the aggressive inlet levels of flow distortions imposed by a serpentine inlet design.
ramana wrote:maitya, How will this dry Kaveri perform when there are no serpentine inlets?
I assume there will be a pressure drop in those serpentine inlets due to the bends.
But should not be much.
Godrej took up the task to make dry Kaveri production models.
Now to answer Ramanaji, just by using this Fan design on the baseline Kaveri, wouldn't mean much in terms of performance improvement in it etc. The IGV and the improved Fan blade airfoils will then be sub-optimally utilized.

The trick of course, is to design a brand new Fan (for conventional inflow paths typical of the 4+ gen platforms) and increase the Fan SPR levels close to 4:1 figures.
Of course, this must have been known (and may have even been theoretically investigated etc) to GTRE - trouble is without any funding available how to go about actually designing/developing/testing these. And this is where the fully-funded dry-Kaveri variant program, comes to play. As GTRE seems to be keen on further increasing the thrust levels of the dry-variant (to say 52-54KN) without tinker with the core.
Which means more work in,
a) the Fan design (as discussed above)
b) and also via the LPT improvement route (aka increasing LPT efficiency, which would translate to higher rpm of the Fan - which may require increased BPR levels, so that mass flow thru the core remains unchanged).

My guess is (and I'm surely, as always, way off the mark here :oops: ), if GTRE is able to up-thrust the dry-Kaveri variant to 52-54KN levels, using the similar/same design effort, the baseline K9 variant can be made to achieve the 57-60KN dry-thrust levels. But the Fans for the serpentine-inlet-variant and the conventional-inlet-variant will still have to be different - quite similar, but not the same.
ramana wrote: I heard DRDO is making an A/B for this from a clean sheet.
I didn't want to use scratch lest it reads as screech!
I've also heard the same - the design goal of the baseline K9 variant was to achieve a thrust-boost of ~60% of the dry-thrust levels (with an isentropic efficiency of 90+%) - it was able to achieve ~approx 45-50% etc.
So if this new design can achieve the original design goal, then a 57-60KN/88-90KN variant can be achieved. Maybe the bi-layer YSZ-LZ coated liner are introduced and thus reducing the need of cooling air from the compressors (thus in turn increasing the overall efficiency of the turbofan) etc.
But the funding for it has be arranged, as it will not come via the dry-Kaveri variant (maybe via internal funds).
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Kailash »

Excellent posts Maitya ji. Gives a lot of hope in terms of the future of the program and what are the low hanging fruits. When we have 2000+ engines required in the next 3-4 decades, I am just appalled that people with the purse string don't see the logic of releasing funds to GTRE.

I hope Kaveri related achievements become something much more than just bargaining chips on discussions with GE/RR/Safran. We should probably wrap a platform around the available engine, considering its limitations, take to its logical conclusion of certification and as a continuous improvement test bed.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

@ Maitya-ji....

India soon to jointly manufacture jet engines for LCA Mk2
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... p-3097873/
22 May 2023
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:@ Maitya-ji....

India soon to jointly manufacture jet engines for LCA Mk2
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... p-3097873/
22 May 2023
Rakesh saar,

It does not automatically mean that critical and vital parts will be made here. All such parts will generally end up being imported and stored in bonded warehouses, and the accounting process of such parts will be reminiscent of security being enforced at fort knox

As is usual in such cases, the Indian JV partner will end up providing housekeeping, facilities, transportation, and cafeteria management services.

It is looking more like a local assembly project (from kits) with some non critical work being outsourced to HAL or similar entities

we will not normally be allowed to access design data or even critical test data

the amrikis are simply blowing smoke...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

chetak wrote:
Rakesh wrote:@ Maitya-ji....

India soon to jointly manufacture jet engines for LCA Mk2
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... p-3097873/
22 May 2023
Rakesh saar,

It does not automatically mean that critical and vital parts will be made here. All such parts will generally end up being imported and stored in bonded warehouses, and the accounting process of such parts will be reminiscent of security being enforced at fort knox

As is usual in such cases, the Indian JV partner will end up providing housekeeping, facilities, transportation, and cafeteria management services.

It is looking more like a local assembly project (from kits) with some non critical work being outsourced to HAL or similar entities

we will not normally be allowed to access design data or even critical test data

the amrikis are simply blowing smoke...
No country will share such critical tech.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

chetak wrote:
Rakesh wrote:@ Maitya-ji....

India soon to jointly manufacture jet engines for LCA Mk2
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... p-3097873/
22 May 2023
Rakesh saar,

It does not automatically mean that critical and vital parts will be made here. All such parts will generally end up being imported and stored in bonded warehouses, and the accounting process of such parts will be reminiscent of security being enforced at fort knox

As is usual in such cases, the Indian JV partner will end up providing housekeeping, facilities, transportation, and cafeteria management services.

It is looking more like a local assembly project (from kits) with some non critical work being outsourced to HAL or similar entities

we will not normally be allowed to access design data or even critical test data

the amrikis are simply blowing smoke...
Absolutely ...

Betw in the above link
... Collaboration mechanisms within co-development and co-production are being considered by both countries ...
So all it means is,
a) co-development of: Fan, IGV, Casings & Shrouds, Spools, bypass ducts, Afterburner flaps and C/D nozzles, FADEC H/W etc.

b) co-production (so SKD assembly) of: HPT, NGV, HPC, Afterburner Core etc - a few years later maybe SKD will transition to CKD assembly, but that's about it.
A SKD-then-CKD example, in this context, can be:
For example in the HPT, in SKD mode, the Blades and the Disk will come as single "subsystem/part" called HPT - and few years later, when CKD mode starts it will transition to the blades and the disc coming in separately, and then being assembled together to a HPT system by HAL.

And as you may have noticed, via this route, there's zero danger of any "accidental transfer of manufacturing technology IPs" of any kind - just as an example, for a HPT:
Ingot preparation (precision composition maintained)
3D-printing of silica based ceramic moulds (with internal cooling paths)
SC Investment Casting
HIP based Powder Metallurgy
EB-VPD based TBC Coatings
Laser drilling of Convectional Cooling holes
any LFW based blade disk "joining"
etc etc etc.

c) Not sure: Source Codes of the FADEC, Combustor, LPT (90% chance it too will go the SKD co-production route)


But am I happy (as if it matters :P ) – yes, of course, as:
1) Since, there was never any illusion of anything useful wrt indigenous turbofan initiatives, coming from it anyway.
There may be some more testing infrastructure created, which can of course be leveraged in other programs - the more the merrier.

2) It derisks the parent platform program (Mk2, maybe AMCA etc) approvals etc
Since the politicos and the babudom will get their pound of flesh wrt sloganeering etc, and thus the parent platform programs will get their approvals as well.

3) If HAL plays it intelligently, they can stock up a decent inventory, so that any necessary postponing of any sanction-impact (that is almost inevitable) by an year or so, can be implemented.

4) Some additional turbofan-assembly-level rozgar yogna created in HAL - with AL-3FP assembly work in the winding-down mode, they sure can use some additional rozgar-yojna based demand

5) I'm sure there'll be some paper-offset-clauses also included - so atleast a decade or so of chai-biskoot supply to various tongue-twister committees (for how to implement the offset obligation) is assured

The only thing worries me though, is the cost - there's every chance that the unit-cost of HAL assembled unit turning out to be more than the fully-imported units, atleast for the initial lots. That's why, I'm a big votary of direct purchase of turbofans etc vis-a-vis these ToT tamashas - I mean, if we are anyway going to (re)fund the OEM for their R&D spends, why (re)fund more via these ToT tamashas.
But then that's me ... :roll:
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by sanman »

https://twitter.com/CMD_MIDHANI/status/ ... 8917101568
Dr. S. K. Jha CMD MIDHANI
@CMD_MIDHANI
Very happy to inform that MIDHANI received first trial order of superalloys from ROLLS ROYCE. Big initiative in Aero space materials indigenisation by MIDHANI not only for our need but also for overseas.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

@ maitya-ji and chetak-ji...

US, India To Finalise GE’s Fighter Jet Engine Manufacturing Deal Ahead Of PM Modi's Visit
https://news.abplive.com/news/india/ge- ... it-1604974
26 May 2023

https://twitter.com/seemasirohi/status/ ... 23627?s=20 ---> The GE engine deal is mostly done. It’s a big deliverable for Modi’s state visit. My take:

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/seemasirohi/status/ ... 23627?s=20 ---> The GE engine deal is mostly done. It’s a big deliverable for Modi’s state visit. My take:
https://twitter.com/Gokul_Sahni/status/ ... 20416?s=20 ---> “The (Biden) administration is projecting the GE deal as ‘the most expansive jet engine proposal ever’ and ‘a huge play’ by the White House to ensure the future trajectory of US-India relations remains healthy and upward.” 1/2

https://twitter.com/Gokul_Sahni/status/ ... 29792?s=20 ---> “jet engine technology is like crown jewels — to be guarded, not shared. Only 3 others possess the tech — Great Britain, France and Russia. For the Biden Admin to approve co-production & tech transfer is a leap of faith last taken when US paved the way for India to be a de-facto nuclear weapons power.” 2/2
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Tweet below is in reply to the two posts above...

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 09952?s=20 ---> Hype factory apart, India has been making AL-31FPs, RD-33s and then Adours at HAL. None of them automatically made us into an engine power. We've to design & build our own.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

^^^^ Nothing more to add to what I've already posted above, based on these reports.
This is a pure and simple ToAsT (Transfer of Assembly and Testing - I mean post-assembly testing) deal, being sold under the ToT mukhota.
All that will happen is SKD (and maybe a few years later, CKD) level of Assembly and some system/sub-system level Acceptance testing, and that'll be about it, really.
Some non-critical components may as well be manufactured-from-raw here, as well (refer to my prev post wrt possible list of such components).

Of course, HAL/Mod is anyway on record that the ask is for pure manufacturing ToT only (a clever euphemism of SKD assembly, with the “knocked down” level deliberately kept vague to ease the OEM discomfort etc :P ).

There'll of course a deluge of chest-thumping and harrumphgiri from the usual-quarters :twisted: - so brace yourself.

However, what I’m finding quite surprising (wrt whatever details have got published so far), why is HAL/MoD/IAF not insisting on indigenous sub-system level replacements, without sacrificing the overall engine warranties, after a few years of pure-and-simple screwdrivergiri. :roll:

Let me leave it at that, for the moment …
(Note: Interested folks, may do a slight more research (enough hints are there in my posts itself) on them and try and figure it out, at system/sub-system levels of the F414)
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by SidSoma »

maitya wrote: However, what I’m finding quite surprising (wrt whatever details have got published so far), why is HAL/MoD/IAF not insisting on indigenous sub-system level replacements, without sacrificing the overall engine warranties, after a few years of pure-and-simple screwdrivergiri. :roll:
They might be overridden by the Election machinery, My 2 cents.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by williams »

maitya wrote: However, what I’m finding quite surprising (wrt whatever details have got published so far), why is HAL/MoD/IAF not insisting on indigenous sub-system level replacements, without sacrificing the overall engine warranties, after a few years of pure-and-simple screwdrivergiri. :roll:
What subsystem are we talking about here sir? How will HAL or anybody have the know-how to replace a major subsystem from an OEM engine as complicated as F414 after any number of years of screwdrivergiri wrt to another type of engine? We need to build our own stuff and learn from our own mistakes and create an eco-system. That cannot happen just by negotiating terms with an OEM. Also, OEM's ToT is never going to be sanctions-proof. These are stop-gap measures at best. We need to invest in our own R&D period. Hopefully, babus do not think that this is the end of our quest for a fighter engine and continue to invest in our own R&D.
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