Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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maitya
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

williams wrote:
maitya wrote: However, what I’m finding quite surprising (wrt whatever details have got published so far), why is HAL/MoD/IAF not insisting on indigenous sub-system level replacements, without sacrificing the overall engine warranties, after a few years of pure-and-simple screwdrivergiri. :roll:
What subsystem are we talking about here sir? How will HAL or anybody have the know-how to replace a major subsystem from an OEM engine as complicated as F414 after any number of years of screwdrivergiri wrt to another type of engine?
<snip>
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Refer to the last line of my prev post, and maybe think thru a bit :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Hint: One way of doing so, is to randomly choose a major subsystem, say (just purely as an example) HPT. Now if you search around carefully for
1) What are it's major subcomponents? Should be fairly easy.
2) What are the material and manufacturing (and some design level data) tech required to manufacturing required for these sub-components
(and don't forget the integration technologies as well)
3) What level of requirement-vs-achieved perf data (and some level of design data) will the OEM be ready to part with?
Remember some level of perf data will be available to the user anyway.
4) Is there any indigenous program that may have delivered or demonstrated equivalent level of technology mastering
... and so on and so forth!!

Should be a good mental exercise, isn't it?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by williams »

maitya wrote:
williams wrote:
What subsystem are we talking about here sir? How will HAL or anybody have the know-how to replace a major subsystem from an OEM engine as complicated as F414 after any number of years of screwdrivergiri wrt to another type of engine?
<snip>
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Refer to the last line of my prev post, and maybe think thru a bit :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Hint: One way of doing so, is to randomly choose a major subsystem, say (just purely as an example) HPT. Now if you search around carefully for
1) What are it's major subcomponents? Should be fairly easy.
2) What are the material and manufacturing (and some design level data) tech required to manufacturing required for these sub-components
(and don't forget the integration technologies as well)
3) What level of requirement-vs-achieved perf data (and some level of design data) will the OEM be ready to part with?
Remember some level of perf data will be available to the user anyway.
4) Is there any indigenous program that may have delivered or demonstrated equivalent level of technology mastering
... and so on and so forth!!

Should be a good mental exercise, isn't it?
I see where you are going. Use the screwdrivegiri project to do indigenization R&D and stealth fund that R&D program :D It might work but is highly risky if the integration fizzles into mythical man-months. The question is, will the OEM partner agree to babysit your quasi-reverse engineering project which will ultimately make them lose their market share?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

williams wrote:
maitya wrote: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Refer to the last line of my prev post, and maybe think thru a bit :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Hint: One way of doing so, is to randomly choose a major subsystem, say (just purely as an example) HPT. Now if you search around carefully for
1) What are it's major subcomponents? Should be fairly easy.
2) What are the material and manufacturing (and some design level data) tech required to manufacturing required for these sub-components
(and don't forget the integration technologies as well)
3) What level of requirement-vs-achieved perf data (and some level of design data) will the OEM be ready to part with?
Remember some level of perf data will be available to the user anyway.
4) Is there any indigenous program that may have delivered or demonstrated equivalent level of technology mastering
... and so on and so forth!!

Should be a good mental exercise, isn't it?
I see where you are going. Use the screwdrivegiri project to do indigenization R&D and stealth fund that R&D program :D It might work but is highly risky if the integration fizzles into mythical man-months. The question is, will the OEM partner agree to babysit your quasi-reverse engineering project which will ultimately make them lose their market share?
No no ... Reverse Engineering, Stealth fund R&D etc seldom works in high complex (layered complexity) technology dev work.
Refer to pt 4 in my prev post ...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/seemasirohi/status/ ... 23627?s=20 ---> The GE engine deal is mostly done. It’s a big deliverable for Modi’s state visit. My take:
https://twitter.com/RupakChatto/status/ ... 07587?s=20 ---> The last time there was a real transfer of technology for a jet engine was in 1946 when Rolls-Royce sold the USSR 25 Nene engines. So if anyone in India thinks this is real, I have a marble tomb to sell you.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/seemasirohi/status/ ... 23627?s=20 ---> The GE engine deal is mostly done. It’s a big deliverable for Modi’s state visit. My take:
https://twitter.com/cheraputra/status/1 ... 36833?s=20 ---> Do you really believe this stuff? LOL. There's no way they would share such cutting edge technology with India. They have never shared it with their own close allies, so what makes you think they would for India? Even Russia never did ToT of AL-31FP. This probably some screwdrivergiri like AL-31FP or CFM LEAP components.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 07361?s=20 ---> Russia did do TOT of AL-31FP, issue is a lot of it can't be transferred to our domestic programs. We would have to copy it's design mm by mm, spend much time & effort replicating imported subsystems, alloys.

https://twitter.com/mr_noir2000/status/ ... 11682?s=20 ---> Isn't our core issue metallurgy?

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 57825?s=20 ---> Multiple issues, but metallurgy is the hardest.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Rakesh wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/seemasirohi/status/ ... 23627?s=20 ---> The GE engine deal is mostly done. It’s a big deliverable for Modi’s state visit. My take:
https://twitter.com/cheraputra/status/1 ... 36833?s=20 ---> Do you really believe this stuff? LOL. There's no way they'd share such cutting edge tech with India. They have never shared it with their own close allies, so what makes you think they'd would for India? Even Russia never did ToT of AL-31FP. This probably some screwdrivergiri like AL-31FP or CFM LEAP components.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 07361?s=20 ---> Russia did do TOT of AL-31FP, issue is a lot of it can't be transferred to our domestic programs. We would have to copy it's design mm by mm, spend much time & effort replicating imported subsystems, alloys.

https://twitter.com/mr_noir2000/status/ ... 11682?s=20 ---> Isn't our core issue metallurgy?

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 57825?s=20 ---> Multiple issues, but metallurgy is the hardest.
Rakeshji, just between you and me, and so that there's slightly better perspective on this whole TOAST tamasha, do note that the above msgs/texts/tweets are both correct and, at the same time, misses the real crux of it as well - especially, and again just as an example, with the AL-31FP TOAST tamasha.

But to bring out that perspective of mine, I'll need to write a longish post, b/w etc for which is completely non-existent currently. :oops:

However, as pointed out in my previous set of posts, part of that perspective (wrt F414 TOAST tamasha) is hidden in my previous set of posts (and other older posts in this thread) - just needs carefully reading thru.
So, let me desist now, by making the following tallish claim - wrt AL-31FP TOAST tamasha (only because it got mentioned in the these tweets/msgs):
The desi hollow SCB HPT blade casting tech (actually a gen or more ahead) predates all these AL-31FP TOAST tamasha that went on for the past 1.5 or so decade - only that, being desi, no baboon wanted to believe (let alone even understood or appreciate) it.

So nothing was even tried in the negotiations with the Russians wrt, full component/subsystem level replacements in the lifetime of these engines, while keeping the warranty clauses of the turbofan intact. And the high-flying user community - tauba-tauba - how come you even dream of them coming close to accepting something which has even a slightest of risk (wrt warranty etc) to their videshi flying knights/toys - and that too, these risks originating from some desi kalluram group's idea.

Worse, these kallurams went ahead and implemented atleast 2 gen ahead stuff in their never-flown Kaveri program (plus a completely new concept in their HTFE program, which neatly sidesteps the whole need).

So no need of the desi SC hollow HPT blade tech anywhere - no harm done, life goes on, everybody happy and dandy. And when there's a need of a higher-powered engine to accommodate the platform upgrade, quickly run and fall on the feat and beg the Russkies for AL-41 series etc.
(betw anybody here did any quick comparison wrt technology levels between AL-41 series and AL-31FP here - answer to what said above, would be quite stark actually, but never mind.)

As they say, Ashwathama htho, iti ...
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Maitya-ji, I was hoping for you to chime in on the full TOT on the AL-31FP. Thank You :)

Meanwhile....

https://twitter.com/hellfire_81/status/ ... 25121?s=20 ---> And the game to get Rolls Royce disqualified from the "Great Engine Game" is underway......! Somehow, gives me the same vibes as the Bhim SPG-Denel (T6) saga!

https://twitter.com/TejaGogo/status/166 ... 67941?s=20 ---> Is it the ruling govt or the system within the govt behind this game of play

https://twitter.com/hellfire_81/status/ ... 93185?s=20 ---> The multitude of "system" remain robust. All have own interests but a common goal - self interest. May also create a hue & cry over a single vendor & launch "indigenous" angle to actually undermine the whole project.
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 79584?s=20 ---> CBI registers a case against British Aerospace company Rolls Royce India Pvt Ltd, Tim Jones, Director Rolls Royce India Pvt Ltd and private individuals Sudhir Chuadhrie and Bhanu Chaudharie and other unknown public servants and private persons with the objective to cheat the Government of India in the matter of procurement of Hawk Aircraft from Rolls Royce plc, UK and its associate group companies, including M/s Rolls Royce Turbomeca Limited: CBI.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 33664?s=20 ---> The unknown public servants abused their official positions as public servants and approved & procured a total number of 24 Hawk 115 Advance Jet Trainer (AJT) aircraft for GBP 734.21 million, besides permitting licence manufacturing of 42 additional aircraft by M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) against materials supplied by the said manufacturer for an additional amount of USD 308.247 million for the said 42 License Manufactured aircraft and USD 7.5 million towards Manufacturer's Licence Fee, in lieu of huge bribes, commissions and kickbacks paid by the said manufacturer and its officers to intermediaries: CBI.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Wonder if the RR engine deal is going anywhere after this revelation.

CBI files case against Rolls Royce, others for alleged fraud in Hawk aircraft procurement
https://legal.economictimes.indiatimes. ... /100590781
29 May 2023
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:Wonder if the RR engine deal is going anywhere after this revelation.
Saar, see post right above yours :)
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Aldonkar »

chetak wrote:Wonder if the RR engine deal is going anywhere after this revelation.

CBI files case against Rolls Royce, others for alleged fraud in Hawk aircraft procurement
https://legal.economictimes.indiatimes. ... /100590781
29 May 2023
I am surprised that no one has questioned the accuracy of the Charges here. BAE are the designer of the Hawk aircraft. Rolls Royce is a totally separate company and supplied the engines to BAE. BAE does not own the IP for the Hawk engines and as far as I am aware the engines for the HAL built Hawk were purchased from RR, just as , say, GE supplies the engine for the Tejas Mk1.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Engines were bought extra for the plane.
BAE is charged with bribing.
RR too.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India & US close to mega defence deal: Pact for fighter jet engines 1st, ship engines likely next
https://theprint.in/defence/india-us-cl ... t/1602974/
31 May 2023
Transfer of Technology (ToT) for jet engines was the main thrust of National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's talks with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in February.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 30370?s=20 ---> Predictable hype around PM's US visit & engine "deal". No different from buying LM2500s for our ships. No ToT is going to happen either no matter the protestations. Time to pour billions into our own program and build one. Otherwise the AMCA is dead.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 90208?s=20 ---> And folks easily ignore that the AMCA engine is the way towards Atmanirbharta in the IAF engine-wise. It is expected to power the entire indigenous fighter fleet in the IAF & IN. That is how important it is.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 54208?s=20 ---> It'll take 15 years to build an engine if begun today. Major A&D corporations are willing to participate in it and the AMCA program itself. If there is seriousness on GoI's part towards it.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 66337?s=20 ---> We will make more of the AL-31FP and RD-33 than the F414. I hope people understand that rather than jump on the hype train. Heck, those engines have so much Indian process refinement & parts replacement, the lack of work on uprating it is frustrating & idiotic!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:India & US close to mega defence deal: Pact for fighter jet engines 1st, ship engines likely next
https://theprint.in/defence/india-us-cl ... t/1602974/
31 May 2023
https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... 11777?s=20 ---> This is path-breaking, not for ToT, which is a sham. But it ties India's air force into the US for decades to come - as all future fighters are likely to be built around F414 turbofans. If this is not "inter-operability" and dependence, nothing will be.

https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... 70306?s=20 ---> Pity - this is merely a souped-up/marketing version of HAL ToT w/Russia on fighters and engines - R11/R25/AL31. What we need is a massively-funded, hi-failure-tolerance national mission on aero-engines. With a mandate to buy/beg/borrow/steal. Like we did for nuke subs under ATV.

https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... 34080?s=20 ---> No one is giving engine technology. Least of all US. Russia shared sub nuke reactor technology, but not aero-engine - shows how much of a black-art this is. No Plan B here.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

After the cryogenic engine technology denial regime. Why has it not sunk in our decision makers that India must invest in our engine development efforts.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Its 2 fold, most Indians are ultra selfish, using traits various bribes are used to make key decision makers to comprise on sustained development.

Same in private sector, Chinese/ foreign supplier will bribe MD and Purchase department and sell everything.

It is this trait of not being loyal to land, but only oneself which is exploited.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ravar »

Was this posted here? ->

DOPT circular dated May 08, 2023
The Appointments Committee of the Cabinet has approved the appointment of Ms. Suparna Pal, Scientist ‘F’, GTRE, Bengaluru as Technology Adviser/Counsellor (Defence Technology) in the Embassy of India, Paris
(France).
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by williams »

Well the DG of Aeronautical Systems is Ms. Tessy Thomas. She was the one who said LCA can run on GTX-35VS now. Hopefully, people like her can show some leadership to push for the Desi engine program. Interestingly her son's name is Tejas :)
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Engines were bought extra for the plane.
BAE is charged with bribing.
RR too.
There has to be a float stock of engines to cater for normal operations and also for war reserves.

Parameters like MTTR, MTTD, MTTF, MTBF, and SVR, and many others technicalities are factored into the complex mix to determine the optimal number of engines to be positioned/procured as the float stock. These calculations are at best theoretical and somewhat educated conjectures on a best guess basis

Unscheduled removals caused by bird hits, and other random events like pilot mishandling, maintenance errors etc are unpredictable and cannot really be estimated but the bird hit events are high because of the waste from unauthorized slaughter houses and unregulated garbage dumps specially where certain "samuday vishesh" are plentiful (purposely and tactically placed) in the vicinity of MIL airbases, airports etc.

Near where I stay, there are numerous such "slaughter houses" on the main road itself, not to mention the various side streets etc (basically, each meat shop usually butchers the animal(s) on the premises and dumps the waste surreptitiously into the nearest gutter or drain attracting all sorts of strays, birds and other scavengers, and smaller birds in turn attract larger, heavier, and higher flying birds of prey like kites and other raptors which are typically ingested into the engines or sometimes damage the airframe)

Relatively speaking, one doesn't hear so much about "bird hits" in the west. Of course, events like "the airbus landing on the hudson", are as spectacular, as they are rare

But unfortunately, our PSUs and others fumble the ball on the spares (on the shelf, and in the pipeline) which all suppliers are desperately hoping that their customers do and so "emergency purchases" are resorted to and that goes through without too much of a scrutiny or discussion

emergency supplies are often priced abnormally high and that is where they make their killing and "agents" make their regular bread and butter "commissions" beyond what they wrangled for the sale

companies like RR and BAE, owned by our erstwhile colonial masters know their way only too well around the Indian defence markets, the hoi polloi babooze in various ministries who signoff on the bills

This is one of the rare cases that someone has been booked and that by itself shows that there may well be wheels within wheels that are in motion

It is not beyond the amrikis to roughly elbow their competitors out of the way.

Just remember how easily they fixed nambi narayan in the "isro spy" case using Indian catspaws and stooges
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

williams wrote:Well the DG of Aeronautical Systems is Ms. Tessy Thomas. She was the one who said LCA can run on GTX-35VS now. Hopefully, people like her can show some leadership to push for the Desi engine program. Interestingly her son's name is Tejas :)
DG Aero is now Mr Siddique, ex dir gtre.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by sanman »

US & India to sign deal for GE 414 engine production in India:

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Engines were bought extra for the plane.
BAE is charged with bribing.
RR too.

the congis are involved neck deep in this and the case has surfaced at the correct time to cause them damage

In 2012, the UK’s Serious Fraud Office initiated an investigation into Rolls Royce’s business practices. The investigation revealed a pattern of corrupt activities, including the payment of bribes to intermediaries in several countries, including India. The allegations involving the Hawk aircraft deal were part of this investigation. Rolls Royce eventually settled the case with the Serious Fraud Office in 2017, agreeing to pay a fine of $614.21 million.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/rolls-ro ... ctices-act

In related proceedings, Rolls-Royce also settled with the United Kingdom’s Serious Fraud Office (SFO) and the Brazilian Ministério Público Federal (MPF). As part of its resolution with the SFO, Rolls-Royce entered into a DPA and admitted to paying additional bribes or failing to prevent bribery payments in connection with Rolls-Royce’s business operations in China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Russia and Thailand between in or around 1989 and in or around 2013, and Rolls-Royce agreed to pay a total fine of £497,252,645 ($604,808,392). As part of its leniency agreement with the MPF, Rolls-Royce also agreed to pay a penalty of approximately $25,579,170 for the company’s role in a conspiracy to bribe foreign officials in Brazil between 2005 and 2008. Because the conduct underlying the MPF resolution overlaps with the conduct underlying part of the department’s resolution, the department credited the $25,579,170 that Rolls-Royce agreed to pay in Brazil against the total fine in the United States. Therefore, the total amount to be paid to the United States is $169,917,710, and the total amount of penalties that Rolls-Royce has agreed to pay is more than $800 million.

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/c ... 22934.html
Between 2003 and 2012, according to the FIR, public servants abused their official position and approved and procured 24 Hawk 115 Advance Jet Trainer aircraft for 734.21 million pounds besides permitting licence manufacture of 42 additional aircraft by HAL against materials supplied by Rolls Royce for an additional amount of USD 308.247 million and USD 7.5 million towards the Manufacturer's License Fee.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter thread for folks who want a good read on the topic...

https://twitter.com/Jordan_W_Taylor/sta ... 86977?s=20 ---> Our friend, the high temperature aero gas turbine blade. It's coated, film cooled, made of single crystal Nickel superalloy, generates 1000HP and pulls thousands of g in an environment hundreds of degrees higher than its melting point. And eventually it may be obsolete...

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by sanman »

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

This Gupta fellow is part of the conspiracy to create a fake narrative of the coup on Gen V K Singhji. At least we, Bharat Rakshaks, shall not give any lift to such scum.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Per a Defence AV channel the F414 engine production in India would start with indigenization level of 60% in the 1st year and will top out at 75% at the end of the 10th year. so the screw drive /assembling demonstration can and will come to a halt at any time.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

How many engines do they plan on making in 10 years?

The F414-GE-INS6 has insufficient power for the AMCA. So, I hope there is a plan to enhance it within India. ?????????
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Report was for 300+ engines for India's own needs. Thrown is is the carrot of exporting additional numbers, doing MRO of engines of other countries and involving 500+ MSME's from India in the the supply-chain.
Last edited by Vips on 07 Jun 2023 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

There is an envisaged order of 6 squadrons of the Tejas Mk2 (the aircraft that was not supposed to come!). That is ~ 120 engines right there. Then there is the twin engine TEDBF. Production numbers are guesstimates at best, but a production run of 60+ aircraft could occur. That is another 120 engines. Then the first two AMCA squadrons will also use the F414 turbofans, so add another 80 engines. Comes to around 300 F414 engines, so the report of 300+ is correct.

The next batch of five AMCA squadrons (the Mk2 variant) is planned to have an indigenous turbofan. Only time will tell if that occurs. Once we start license production of anything, we get quite comfortable and stay on that path.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by maitya »

Vips wrote:Per a Defence AV channel the F414 engine production in India would start with indigenization level of 60% in the 1st year and will top out at 75% at the end of the 10th year. so the screw drive /assembling demonstration can and will come to a halt at any time.
Yes, yes, yes of course ...

Joining a full imported HPT Disc with a set of full imported HPT blades will give us indigenous HPT, :twisted: of course ... so one part count (i.e HPT part) accounted for, in that 60% indigenization level in 1st year TOAST tamashsa!!

Quality of our so-called Defense AV channels are, well, let it be ... sensibilities of a family forum needs accounting for!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by sanman »

Vips wrote:Per a Defence AV channel the F414 engine production in India would start with indigenization level of 60% in the 1st year and will top out at 75% at the end of the 10th year. so the screw drive /assembling demonstration can and will come to a halt at any time.
It's our own fault -- we're unable to compete with the big boys in engine development on our own.

All we can do is try to learn and reverse-engineer the technology while we have access to it.
astal
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by astal »

sanman wrote:
Vips wrote:Per a Defence AV channel the F414 engine production in India would start with indigenization level of 60% in the 1st year and will top out at 75% at the end of the 10th year. so the screw drive /assembling demonstration can and will come to a halt at any time.
It's our own fault -- we're unable to compete with the big boys in engine development on our own.

All we can do is try to learn and reverse-engineer the technology while we have access to it.
If Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass and scientists were serious about indigenous technology and strategic independence for items like fighter engines, we would be building an improved Marut with twin Kaveri engines, using it as a LIFT and ordering it in the hundreds. The engine would be improved over successive versions of the aircraft to go up to 100 kN along with successive improvements in the airframe. Regardless of the cost.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by sanman »

astal wrote:If Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass and scientists were serious about indigenous technology and strategic independence for items like fighter engines, we would be building an improved Marut with twin Kaveri engines, using it as a LIFT and ordering it in the hundreds. The engine would be improved over successive versions of the aircraft to go up to 100 kN along with successive improvements in the airframe. Regardless of the cost.
Yeah, we could even make something for export, even if we ourselves can't use it for our own defense. At least then we'd have some sustainable self-funding development.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

sanman wrote:
astal wrote:If Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass and scientists were serious about indigenous technology and strategic independence for items like fighter engines, we would be building an improved Marut with twin Kaveri engines, using it as a LIFT and ordering it in the hundreds. The engine would be improved over successive versions of the aircraft to go up to 100 kN along with successive improvements in the airframe. Regardless of the cost.
Yeah, we could even make something for export, even if we ourselves can't use it for our own defense. At least then we'd have some sustainable self-funding development.
The govt has wholeheartedly supported the missile program, and the warship building in Indian yards, and many other similar projects. No such complaints have been made against the GoI from ISRO and DAE either and both are doing very well, thank you.

This GoI simply cannot be faulted for the failure of engine program. They were willing to fund but they also ran into a wall of BS and lost confidence, just like the earlier Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass etc had also become demoralized by the conceited hubris of this organization.

One specific and pompous organization, with it's unacknowledged and also very serious limitations, the unwarranted over confidence, the refusal to acknowledge the ground reality and the sheer hubris it insisted on proclaiming over the decades is the root cause of the Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass and the ecosystem losing faith and credence in the ability of such organizations to produce and pursue indigenous technology and see the project through to its successful conclusion.

These guys did not even attempt follow the tried and tested AQ Khan method.

Instead they were waiting for गरम गरम, बना बना हलवा to be served to them on चांदी की थाली

How come no one is willing to point a finger evidencing the real culprits who were solely and singularly responsible for the loss of confidence of the Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass and the complete ecosystem et al

These are some of the dubious historic impediments that the present GoI cannot wrap it's head around, especially when the same mantra was unfailingly chanted over the decades and to various congi governments as well, and not just the current incumbent and accessible funds were made available despite the very high priority and competing requirements from the social, health, and infrastructure segments (among others) of the overall economy. It looks like a lot of wool, perhaps deliberately conjured up institutional plan, or by a collectively agreed upon organizational agenda to keep the project alive, was pulled over a lot of eyes of the Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass etc

People must ponder why and not blame the current govt as though it were solely responsible for this long standing fiasco

It is however, the first GoI since independence, willing to try and make amends to rectify the situation (and several other such situations) which was/were definitely not of its making.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Y I Patel »

^^

Truer words have not been spoken! Thank you for the clear eyed perspective!
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by astal »

chetak wrote:
sanman wrote:
Yeah, we could even make something for export, even if we ourselves can't use it for our own defense. At least then we'd have some sustainable self-funding development.
...
How come no one is willing to point a finger evidencing the real culprits who were solely and singularly responsible for the loss of confidence of the Indian politicians, bureaucrats, defense brass and the complete ecosystem et al
...
People must ponder why and not blame the current govt as though it were solely responsible for this long standing fiasco

It is however, the first GoI since independence, willing to try and make amends to rectify the situation (and several other such situations) which was/were definitely not of its making.
Chetak,

Thanks for the response. Those who have been following the GTRE saga are acutely aware of how this institution hoodwinked the entire establishment, from the early nineties to 2008, when the LCA Tejas program was delinked with Kaveri, after spending all of $ 250.5 million on the program.

I am not blaming only the current GOI or air force brass or the bureaucrats tasked with heading the program but collectively it seems like there is no institutional will. We could have taken some relatively simple, low cost step since the Kaveri-LCA fiasco from 2004 to 2008, which was in turn preceded by a failure to make an engine that would propel the Marut, back in 1986.

1. Develop an appropriate wind tunnel for testing. (would be useful for all aeronautics development)
2. Develop a flying test bed. (or keep sending it to Russia)
3. Mate what ever we have (the current state of the art Kaveri, without AB) with a UAV and test it in real atmospheric conditions.

All I see for the past 10+ years is
1. Foreign collaboration on a 110 kN engine. (No one will sell anything useful in this space, ever. Even for $ 10 billion or more)
2. Endless waiting in line for tests in Russia.
3. Getting repeatedly cheated by foreign vendors after being promised something. SNECMA/Safran was supposed to help with Kaveri as part of TOT agreed for during the Rafale deal. GE was supposed to help build a wind tunnel.
4. Statements like Kaveri will be mated with this version or that version of Tejas.

What stops IAF and GOI from building a fighter/LIFT/backup around the current version Kaveri (say 50 kN dry)? It would be heavier but a twin Kaveri based LIFT would be a great strategic backup when foreign vendors stop sales due to their own geo political interests. Even if the engine works as advertised, we still have to go through all the steps to manufacture and maintain the engine at scale. The learnings from this exercise would be priceless. At this stage, even a UAV will do.

For a civilization state with a multiple trillion dollar economy, do we have to keep holding out for co-development or luck?
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

astal wrote:Chetak,

Thanks for the response. Those who have been following the GTRE saga are acutely aware of how this institution hoodwinked the entire establishment, from the early nineties to 2008, when the LCA Tejas program was delinked with Kaveri, after spending all of $ 250.5 million on the program.

I am not blaming only the current GOI or air force brass or the bureaucrats tasked with heading the program but collectively it seems like there is no institutional will. We could have taken some relatively simple, low cost step since the Kaveri-LCA fiasco from 2004 to 2008, which was in turn preceded by a failure to make an engine that would propel the Marut, back in 1986.

1. Develop an appropriate wind tunnel for testing. (would be useful for all aeronautics development)
2. Develop a flying test bed. (or keep sending it to Russia)
3. Mate what ever we have (the current state of the art Kaveri, without AB) with a UAV and test it in real atmospheric conditions.

All I see for the past 10+ years is
1. Foreign collaboration on a 110 kN engine. (No one will sell anything useful in this space, ever. Even for $ 10 billion or more)
2. Endless waiting in line for tests in Russia.
3. Getting repeatedly cheated by foreign vendors after being promised something. SNECMA/Safran was supposed to help with Kaveri as part of TOT agreed for during the Rafale deal. GE was supposed to help build a wind tunnel.
4. Statements like Kaveri will be mated with this version or that version of Tejas.

What stops IAF and GOI from building a fighter/LIFT/backup around the current version Kaveri (say 50 kN dry)? It would be heavier but a twin Kaveri based LIFT would be a great strategic backup when foreign vendors stop sales due to their own geo political interests. Even if the engine works as advertised, we still have to go through all the steps to manufacture and maintain the engine at scale. The learnings from this exercise would be priceless. At this stage, even a UAV will do.

For a civilization state with a multiple trillion dollar economy, do we have to keep holding out for co-development or luck?
astal ji,

APJ was a politician par excellence, especially while he was holding a govt job

He knew how to do two things very well indeed

1) Knew how to get money out of the politicos for his projects, and

2) Knew even better, the importance of delivering results on time and under budget which he did by inspiringly relentless personal efforts, professional competence, and constantly motivating his loyal team mates.

I was his liaison officer on two occasions when he visited the two organizations that I worked for during those times.

Both meetings were unforgettable, and he has left a lasting impression that has endured the passage of time, and impressively, he remembered me by name. as he did the many people that he met during his career.

The politicos swore by him and cleared many obstacles in his way in the minefields sown by jealous competitors and venal babooze desperately seeking to limit his reach

This is an example of the kind of leadership that is lacking.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:The politicos swore by him and cleared many obstacles in his way in the minefields sown by jealous competitors and venal babooze desperately seeking to limit his reach

This is an example of the kind of leadership that is lacking.
On the topic of venal babooze....

One of the reasons (you have correctly highlighted others) why we don't have our own turbofan program. After doing screwdrivergiri on 300+ GE F414s, we will still be scratching our head trying to figure out why we cannot make our own...

https://twitter.com/kjsingh2/status/166 ... 98339?s=20 --->

Image

https://twitter.com/kjsingh2/status/166 ... 83392?s=20 --->

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Pardon me for asking again, not clear.

The F-414 INS6 has 98 kN max.

AMCA supposedly needs 110 kN.

One option is to lean on the F-414 EPE avatar, which tops around 117 kN.

Any idea what the game plan is? How is the Indian partner going to cover this deficit?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The 414 is going for the mk1. It is sufficient for the mk1 in its current form.

The 130 kn is for mk2 and beyond.
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