Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/15453 ... 8lOhAWRqVg ---> Welcome to @SafranElectric's plant, located in the airport zone of Hyderabad in India! Making wiring for CFM LEAP engines and the Rafale fighter. Opened in November 2018, the plant has 150 employees today. #MakeInIndia
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Likely for the upcoming IMRH (Indian Multirole Helicopter). HAL Chairman (R Madhavan) is seated at left....
https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1545 ... 8lOhAWRqVg ---> India's HAL and France's Safran announce a joint venture to develop new helicopter engines. Pact signed today:
https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1545 ... 8lOhAWRqVg ---> India's HAL and France's Safran announce a joint venture to develop new helicopter engines. Pact signed today:
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Laying the groundwork for winning the 114 MRFA deal....the last two pieces in the puzzle are;
1) MRO facility for the M88 turbofans
2) JV for 110kN turbofan for AMCA ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7773&start=680#p2556624
https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/15450 ... 8lOhAWRqVg ---> Safran is inaugurating new production facilities in India. The Group has operated in India for 65 years and now counts 10 facilities & 750 employees in the country, clearly reflecting its commitment to long-term development.
1) MRO facility for the M88 turbofans
2) JV for 110kN turbofan for AMCA ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7773&start=680#p2556624
https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/15450 ... 8lOhAWRqVg ---> Safran is inaugurating new production facilities in India. The Group has operated in India for 65 years and now counts 10 facilities & 750 employees in the country, clearly reflecting its commitment to long-term development.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/15443 ... SLQPM9a_aA ---> We have a long-standing presence in India, with more than 65 years. @SAFRAN has undertaken to act as a first-class technology partner in the development of the Indian civil and military aeronautics industry. #MakeInIndia
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/15442 ... SLQPM9a_aA ---> To promote the emergence of technologies and ever more innovative solutions, @SAFRAN has established several partnerships with leading Indian institutes in the fields of sciences and education.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Doesn't look to be about the Kaveri, but some movement on a smaller class of turbines.
Defence ministry approves arms procurement proposals
Defence ministry approves arms procurement proposals
The DAC has also approved the Navy's proposal to procure an upgraded 1,250-KW capacity marine gas turbine generator for power generation application onboard the Kolkata class of ships through the Indian industry.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Great to see Safran scaling up in India.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
GOI needs to sanction funds for flying test-bed for Kaveri. Engines are too important an area for India. No more joint-this-or-that since no company is willing to provide true know-how-what of aircraft engines. India has to slog through trials and tribulations. We have to take on engines which are smaller output and progress to the levels of 90KN-100KN eventually. That is how you progress, no silver bullets, no shortcuts.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
^^^
We were saying this 10 years ago.
AtmaNirbhar has to be in the mind as well.
We were saying this 10 years ago.
AtmaNirbhar has to be in the mind as well.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
^^^
We were saying this 10 years ago.
AtmaNirbhar has to be in the mind as well.
We were saying this 10 years ago.
AtmaNirbhar has to be in the mind as well.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Saar I know this for the last 20+yrs, my Dad worked on fighter Aircraft Engines.ks_sachin wrote: We were saying this 10 years ago.
AtmaNirbhar has to be in the mind as well.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
+108. Well said sir.bala wrote:GOI needs to sanction funds for flying test-bed for Kaveri. Engines are too important an area for India. No more joint-this-or-that since no company is willing to provide true know-how-what of aircraft engines. India has to slog through trials and tribulations. We have to take on engines which are smaller output and progress to the levels of 90KN-100KN eventually. That is how you progress, no silver bullets, no shortcuts.
Starting from Cray Supercomputer to Cryogenic engines how many times are we going to let ourselves be kicked
before we realize that for some things "There is no substitute for hard Atmanirbhar work" (Not my quote, but a slight twist on former PM Indira Gandhi's quote - "There is no substitute for hard work" which was pasted on all public transport buses in a bygone era).
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
This is great news! May I please ask that - Can one of the talented graphic artists on BRF please do a drawing of what these ex AI 747-400s would look like in IAF colours and in cargo configuration? Thanks!ramana wrote:arvin, These 747-400s are for IAF already allocated before the sale to Tatas.
Its DRDO will get the flying test bed so can be used across entities.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://www.thehindu.com/brandhub/pr-re ... 752878.ece
They have validated a 4.5 kn turbojet for cruise missile applications and this engine is further being developed.Indian start-up achieves break-through in Aero Engine design with Digital Twin
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Is it possible to copy the AL31, with the process and materials developed in India for the Kaveri or the HTFE25?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I remember consulting for an Indian Tier 2 machining house to create 3D models from the available drawings for some important engine parts. The Tier 2 house had tried for over an year and failed. We were able to create a model quite close to the final product in 6 months time with lots of input from Russia. However the parts were to be machined, not from solid metal, but from highly precise castings, which were (as you can guess) completely imported. And these were important parts but not what we consider critical. I was given to understand that after we submitted our work the Tier 2 house was able to machine the part from casting in about 2 years time. (Development sometime takes that long due to the accuracies) involved. This kind of highlights the difficulty in producing the parts. OEMs will ensure that they will provide the tools (which have a certain life) and customised Raw material in the form of castings and blanks to ensure that copies cannot be made beyond a certain number.Pratyush wrote:Is it possible to copy the AL31, with the process and materials developed in India for the Kaveri or the HTFE25?
I am sure that China has paid (or stolen) Russia to get the complete ToT to be able to reverse engineer some of their planes. I find it difficult to digest that only Reverse engineering is at play.
TLDR: NO.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
MoD seeks roadmap for aero-engine ecosystem
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/09/mod- ... ngine.html
08 Sept 2022
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/09/mod- ... ngine.html
08 Sept 2022
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Quotes from the link posted by Rakesh. I hope these conclusions are followed through with concrete action in double quick speed.Rakesh wrote:MoD seeks roadmap for aero-engine ecosystem
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/09/mod- ... ngine.html
08 Sept 2022
It was concluded that co-development of engines with original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) overseas would not result in new designs or modification/upgrade capability. For that, India would need to continue its efforts to develop indigenous engines in mission mode.
As a first step, the MoD needed to impose restrictions on itself on import of small aero engines, by adding them to the “positive indigenisation list”. Furthermore, the DRDO and NAL should be encouraged to release tenders for smaller engines to private entities, not just to GTRE/HAL.
Finally, it was decided that a new structure, titled National Commission for Aero Engine Development (NCAED), should be created in order to have a single head under which design, development and production would come. It was felt this would promote a seamless, coordinated development programme.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Have they started reading BRF at last?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
It appears that the Scientists in DRDO and CSIR have, not the Babu's in MoD.Cyrano wrote:Have they started reading BRF at last?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The Kaveri Engine must be pursued as National priority #1 in tech space. It has been several years since we reached sub-optimal performance specs. The known issues are in material science/vibration. These issues should have been given to several focussed research centers in India including academia to tackle in mission mode. It looks like GTRE is not really interested in solving them nor having to co-opt with others in the solution. They have no working engine to date. Only HAL engine group has some experience in getting to working engines. BharatForge has a lot of experience on the material side. Other private players like Godrej and L&T are involved in creating ISRO rocket components/sub-assemblies that withstand high temps and pressure. I am frankly disappointed with the slow pace of progress. There is a need for a strong leader (with can do attitude) to take charge and run the program hard-nosed.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Firstly it was not MoD as the title proclaimed falsely by Chirkut SookLaw.Cyrano wrote:Have they started reading BRF at last?
Half truth about Kaveri vs Tejas requirement.
https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 30725?s=19
Chirkut Sooklow pimping his buns for money with headline that titles "MoD seeks.." while in the article clearly its a private/corporate "hastha maithun" exercise coming out victor in the wargame. Good pastime of retard (sic) babus & engineers, with
+1
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Civil and military aircraft engine production: Time to get going India
https://www.firstpost.com/opinion-news- ... 31621.html
12 Sept 2022
https://www.firstpost.com/opinion-news- ... 31621.html
12 Sept 2022
India must first get its core engine technologies right, but simultaneously look at next generation engine technologies. Joint Venture is the best way forward for India.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Behind a paywall. If someone has access, please provide your own summary.
Hunt for a jet engine
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/spec ... 2022-09-02
02 Sept 2022
Hunt for a jet engine
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/spec ... 2022-09-02
02 Sept 2022
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Nothing much to read
1. Estimated 2300 Engines required for our Fighter ACs including engine replacement for sukhois and spare engines.
2. GE is expected to setup a plant in India for F414 , agreed to transfer manufacturing technology and production engine , waiting uncle's nod.
3. Safran willing to give complete technology tranasfer for design, development and manufacture at close to $5 billion. It will provide everything for engine manufacturing, from know-how to certification. But didn't mention either about M88 , a new engine or about Kaveri
1. Estimated 2300 Engines required for our Fighter ACs including engine replacement for sukhois and spare engines.
2. GE is expected to setup a plant in India for F414 , agreed to transfer manufacturing technology and production engine , waiting uncle's nod.
3. Safran willing to give complete technology tranasfer for design, development and manufacture at close to $5 billion. It will provide everything for engine manufacturing, from know-how to certification. But didn't mention either about M88 , a new engine or about Kaveri
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Thank you shaun for the summary. Greatly appreciated.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... kyhwv55Y1w ---> Report: Indian military will require 1,000 turbojet engines for fighter aircraft over two decades; 1,000 replacement engines for fighters; 700 for trainer aircraft; 4,000 for 3- to 6-ton-class helicopters; 1,000 for 10- to 13-ton-class helicopters; and 3,000 for combat drones.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
What is the current status of the HTSE-1200 and the HTFE-25 engines? Both had entered the final testing phase, as per some reports.
Will the HTSE-1200 engine be able to replace the Shakti engine used on the ALH? If yes, why not start the development of the engine for the LUH and IMRH, the results of the HTSE-1200 effort seem to be promising?
Ther are reports that we may again go to Safran to develop the engine for the under development IMRH project.
Will the HTSE-1200 engine be able to replace the Shakti engine used on the ALH? If yes, why not start the development of the engine for the LUH and IMRH, the results of the HTSE-1200 effort seem to be promising?
Ther are reports that we may again go to Safran to develop the engine for the under development IMRH project.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Has India tried getting a few retired experts from US or Russia on a year or two on contract, pay them good money, IAS level facilities etc to shorten our dev and testing cycles? Instead of making all the learning phase mistakes and finally getting there, make only the ones needed to generate required test databases, adopt proven methods that aren't written anywhere and thus cut down the time required?
Like how US MIC leapfrogged getting European scientists and engineers in various fields from time to time...
The geographical situation is so volatile right now and I expect it to be so in the multipolar future, we can't count on anyone.
Just imagine things sour with the US and they stop supplying engines...
Like how US MIC leapfrogged getting European scientists and engineers in various fields from time to time...
The geographical situation is so volatile right now and I expect it to be so in the multipolar future, we can't count on anyone.
Just imagine things sour with the US and they stop supplying engines...
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Cyrano wrote:Has India tried getting a few retired experts from US or Russia on a year or two on contract, pay them good money, IAS level facilities etc to shorten our dev and testing cycles? Instead of making all the learning phase mistakes and finally getting there, make only the ones needed to generate required test databases, adopt proven methods that aren't written anywhere and thus cut down the time required?
..
actually i am wondering how any of the manufacturing tech can come to India without the talent and trained manpower
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Reinvent everything needed inhouse from scratch means we will forever be in catch up mode, with an unpredictable success path
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Russian, perhaps.Cyrano wrote:Has India tried getting a few retired experts from US or Russia on a year or two on contract, pay them good money, IAS level facilities etc to shorten our dev and testing cycles?
American, not happening. ITAR and GE/P&W will not allow it.
Even if one of them does show up, still India has to invest billions for all sorts of facilities.
US can, and does, anything she pleases. Others follow US rules.Like how US MIC leapfrogged getting European scientists and engineers in various fields from time to time...
Besides, the US has the funds. Bet Safran and RR are ONLY interested in Indian funds - like the Russians WRT whatever their 5th gen (Su-57?) plane was. French and Brits will take Indian funds, give an older tech to India (which is still an upgrade for Indian) and use Indian funds to make for themselves a brand new tech engine. And, the cycle will continue.
The US Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program - the 6th gen engine sort of - started in 2007. Brar would have had a FAR better set of numbers than me, but, I think they spend around $1 billion each on GE and P&W per year. And, the first engine for GE went into testing in 2020, the second in 2021. It is not even ready for flight testing (as far as I know).Instead of making all the learning phase mistakes and finally getting there, make only the ones needed to generate required test databases, adopt proven methods that aren't written anywhere and thus cut down the time required?
The 'last mile' in engines takes years and billion of USD. No other way out. No one will give it to you nor guide you.
No alt to investing billions and waiting it out. India should print money as needed to support an engine - let the inflation climb. Worth it.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Hmm... Agree n NRao ji.
I'd like to think that we have a strategic and critical tech development 5 year plan or something like that, with oversight by cabinet & PMO.
I'd like to think that we have a strategic and critical tech development 5 year plan or something like that, with oversight by cabinet & PMO.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/a ... status-quo
It seems that the USAF interested in breaking the duopoly of the GE and P&W. That they have awarded development contract to multiple developers.
AUG 22, 2022Air Force’s Next Gen ‘Fighter’ Engine Competition Shakes Up Status Quo
It seems that the USAF interested in breaking the duopoly of the GE and P&W. That they have awarded development contract to multiple developers.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Reading the products from last to first in the above tech, we are just about getting there with the critical piece of equipment in the lower end. RM Parrikar pointed this out 5-6 years ago.Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... kyhwv55Y1w ---> Report: Indian military will require 1,000 turbojet engines for fighter aircraft over two decades; 1,000 replacement engines for fighters; 700 for trainer aircraft; 4,000 for 3- to 6-ton-class helicopters; 1,000 for 10- to 13-ton-class helicopters; and 3,000 for combat drones.
*Siege mentality*
We have generously funded tech or products denied to us in all forms for decades.
Space
Nuclear
Missiles
With our backs to the wall, we realize then we dont have anywhere to go and have bend the back and fund it.
And When you put that investment for 30-40 years, you eventually develop products that rake in money. We can sell launch services, 700 MW PWHR plants (some day) and Akash or Brahmos batteries.
* easy to indigenize mentality*
And then we graduate into where we get overwhelmed by imports and realize we are bleeding money on a relatively easy tech to master. So we put out indigenization list and cut off finished products market for others. We still import components but developing, testing and selling finished products is kept within the country. Thats what is happening with drones and drone policy.
At the same time, local business, seeing the policy, start to see a captive market. And drone engines can bring big bucks. So they put in the money. Poier, Kalyani and a few others etc start investing & developing tech.
The next stage lies , very critically, in the success of HTFE and HTSE. We get that right, integrate into products , and start selling, exporting, we start to hurt the big players because this market segment is very big. And we dont need them anymore.
We are getting there. But the pace, the realization , is too damn slow. If you are talking of collaboration for 10 years in high (> 50kN) thrust engines, and nothing to show, you need to take the hint and start pumping even more money into R&D. But maybe a successful HTFE can give the push to cross the psychological barrier
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Exactly CyranojiCyrano wrote:
Like how US MIC leapfrogged getting European scientists and engineers in various fields from time to time...
.
Just check out how US and Rus divided the 'Peenemunde' scientist and how V2 developed into NASA rockets and Sputniks
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Also is there are anyway we could get some of Ukr Turbine folks for Naval engine??
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The rot has to be cleaned first and from within. In all our defense research organizations, we have seen an inspirational leader who has cleaned up his/her organization and that lead to better performance, change in culture, sustainment of this change over many decades and India reaching a stage in which we are able to master many technologies to the extent of self reliance. So we as Indians are changing but that hasn't reached the GTRE organization yet. It may not be a bad idea to appoint someone who has lead the cryogenic engine or the vikas engine project from ISRO as a special consultant to GTRE or appoint them as the head of GTRE for a period of 5-6 years. Even then, turbofan engine of 100kN + category maybe a decade or so away from our grasp.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
To a mango man like me it appears that whenever India has approached a problem with focused local R&D with adequate resources, we have succeeded. The projects that come to mind are the followingnaraswami wrote:More than any of the above, I would support Kit-ji's comment about "Talent and Trained manpower"
China has already tried the invest $$BBB, national mission route with their established R&D centers - and then recognizing money and PMO oversight does not buy shortcuts, switched to the long grind necessary. In the 2000s, the GT world was puzzled by a flood of publications coming out of China - they were replicating experiments and learnings from as far back as the 60s - university labs, R&D labs etc...building the broad base to create the talent and trained manpower AND the ecosystem of labs - cascades, stage rigs, sub-scale component rigs, engine test cells etc. (not focusing on the Flying Test Bed - a bizarre and weird fixation /hope as a silver bullet here at BRF!). At the same time, escalating industrial espionage against the West... record number of graduate students in US, UK, Germany, Sweden, and Eastern Europe
AND, a massive clean up /reconstitution is needed. For every AIIMS, there is a local government hospital that is um not quite as effective ? All equally Indian - so this is not about wether India/Indians can make it. Without a clean house, we will not attract the scores of potential contributors OR protect those who persevere.
A connected class-mate in Lutyens-nagri called a recent move by Modiji as a surgical strike against the rot in Govt. R&D establishment.... after years of salary and benefit improvements, the practice of handing out massive cash prizes for various awards (DRDO, CSIR etc) was abruptly cut with the rationale that this was about recognition and prestige like the Padma ** not about cash; the trigger anecdote FWIW- a recent committee had overhauled these cash prizes and reorganized them, made them better. Then in the first round of awards, the biggest prize went to...the chair of the aforementioned committee. The rot is SO deep - and in the past has affected especially the Kaveri programs, where there were no protectors like APJ close-by, many senior scientists who were willing to say the truth to power in the last decade were all "handled". Just a higher standard of de-politicization alone, IMO has been one of the big reasons why rocket engines (ISRO), solid propulsion areas (DRDL/RCI etc) are meeting expectations and challenges - and to Cyrano's point HAVE attracted and kept Indian talent exactly like he asked.
1. Cryogenic engine for ISRO
2. PARAM supercomputers after we were rebuffed by the Americans
3. NAL's National mission for composites for LCA
4. NAL's Control Law team that came up with the LCA's control laws
These are some of the "recent" successes - relatively speaking. Going further back in time, one of the first significant successes was development of Brake Pads for Mig-21's as the supply of these from the Soviets were unreliable. Dr Arunachalam mentions it in one of his articles IIRC or was it "Weapons of Peace" - I am not sure.
One more is India's development of a catalytic process to remove Tritium from the heavy water coolant used in nuclear reactors. Tritium was supposed to be highly radioactive. This process was later supposed to have helped India in its quest for fusion weapons. There was an article in "The Week" titled "India's Tritium Triumph" in the immediate months after Shakthi tests.
In the case of GTRE-Kaveri, I am not sure if the lack of testing facilities dragged the program and ultimately led to its being delinked from the LCA program. More knowledgeable members can throw light on this.