Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 24 Jul 2012 09:21

There is an official interview by GTRE official in Geopolitics magazine, which admits of problems in LP and Fan. He also describes the technology they hope go get from Snecma.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pranav » 24 Jul 2012 09:54

shiv wrote:Why are we depending on IIT and government for high level engineering research?


Everywhere in the world, high level research is extremely dependent government support. That's true even for silicon valley, if you look at its historical evolution. Somebody had recently posted a video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTC_RxWN ... e=youtu.be

There are many aspects to the problem - firstly, a rapacious leadership chosen by the departing colonialists, which has ensured that the bulk of the Indian population has remained stunted, malnourished and living in hovels in tattered clothing. Secondly, actively hostile suppression of native entrepreneurship, in a manner not very different from the colonial regime. And finally, a malign neglect of hi tech industrial development, to the point of 100% import dependence for even basic products like calculators and wrist watches.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 24 Jul 2012 10:03

ShauryaT wrote: Until 1991 and certainly till IG, Vaishyas were considered greedy hoarders not to be trusted (I have heard this from someone, how has heard it first hand from IG), the treatment was not unlike how Pakis are treated at the foreign policy level. It is the same language you are using here. Manufacturing anything worthwhile in India was a crime controlled through licenses.


Yes Shaurya it is the same language I am using here, but it is what I have NOT said which is important (in my view). i will try and say it with a joke and tray and make it inoffensive. It's like the man who wanted a wife who was a chef in the kitchen, a harlot in bed and a duches in the living room. He got a wife who was a duchess in the kitchen, a chef in bed and a harlot in the living room.

The Vysya non investment is because we have too many engineers and engineering courses that teach Brahminical theory like learning Vedas, and do not foster shudra hands on work which was always left to artisans and workshop people. Infotech and software coding is ideal brahmin work, you learn the vedas and compose poems.. Designing and making cars and engines is hands on brahmin+shudra work. Engineering was never pure shudra work. It was the Brahmin theory applied to Shudra handiwork. In India we have always created Brahmin engineers. Our engineering colleges teach engineering like teaching vedas. The textbooks of today will be remembered verbatim after 5000 years with no errors via Indian engineering colleges. But there will be no books because these guys will never build a printing press. These duchesses of the kitchen will produce no food that the vysya can use to earn a living and he so finds out that his money is better invested elsewhere. We have a fundamental national dysfunctionality that is not a business/vysya issue alone.

Money has to go into the bottomless black hole called research. And that must happen in 100 Universities. Without that we will only have more of same. In fact that is happening in DRDO where 99% of the money drains off without any direct visible benefit. That is called research.
Last edited by shiv on 24 Jul 2012 10:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 24 Jul 2012 10:05

Pranav wrote:Everywhere in the world, high level research is extremely dependent government support. That's true even for silicon valley, if you look at its historical evolution.

Not in aviation. The only thing that governments did was to fight wars that helped private innovators sell what they designed.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gurneesh » 24 Jul 2012 10:06

^^^ Atleast in the US while basic research is directly funded by gov grants, most of the applied research is funded indirectly by gov grants.

Government chooses a private company (for example GE) for a particular project (lets say aero combustor design for lower pollution etc). The chosen private company then collaborates with univs, labs etc to get the work done. So right from starting of the project industry is involved, which reduces the time required to put the tech into production.

If you look at the cutting edge projects of DARPA, you will find private players (LM, Boeing etc) tying up with univs to form teams.

In India OTOH, most of the research is directly funded by gov and then at the end of the project efforts are made to transfer the tech to industry (DRDO also operates this way).

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Katare » 24 Jul 2012 10:08

vic wrote:There is an official interview by GTRE official in Geopolitics magazine, which admits of problems in LP and Fan. He also describes the technology they hope go get from Snecma.


Could you point to a link? I have seen official quotes by DM in parliament that say tests were successful.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 24 Jul 2012 10:19

shiv wrote: It was the Brahmin theory applied to Shudra handiwork.
I think I know where you are going, have thought in the past on similar lines that somehow our intellectual class has failed to work with hands on materials. you are not entirely incorrect, however I think the issue goes even deeper to an entire eco-system, who's purpose was not "material" progress only. What has happened here, especially with industrialization is the entire eco-system has changed.

We can pick this up some other time but will leave you with this note from one Vaishya. Mukesh Ambani is of the view that Indians are more suitable to high tech manufacturing than the consumer tech approach of China. Think about it and see if he is right in his prognosis.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby pentaiah » 25 Jul 2012 07:06

Yes what shiv ji said is true after 60 years of IITs I am still to see technology boost to Indian industry. Yes even Narayan murthy lamented about it and lo and behold there was barrage of attacks on him.

Yes a strong foundation ITIs, Polytechnics, and then some productive out put from IITs would help. Can you imagine that mahendra puts single cylinder diesel engine imported from US in its micro commercial vehicle GIO

The standards of Engineering students is atrocious to say the least, lucky most of them end up coding which so far has not killed any even with bugs

There is already a trend not go for BSc or pure sciences and that will surely impact the country in future...

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Jul 2012 08:34

^^going by the trend you all have put here by way of big time OT, we should be actually copy khan kings like chips. what is stopping that? remember, it is always easy to imitate, than do it from first principles, and then assimilate and then innovate. we went ahead with innovation, but are now thinking about assimilation via ToT route., and might get stuck there for long time to come.. unless, there is a big change in the basic attitude.

Kaveri can dry up like Saraswati.. we still have Godavari, Narmada and Ganga to chase our wet dreams.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 25 Jul 2012 11:53

shiv wrote:
Will wrote:Arent there any bankrupt engine makers around? Maybe one of our private sector companies can go ahead and buy one of them 8)


It's not the factories or the machinery that is important. It is the technology - that is what materials to use in what proportions and how to treat those materials to create a material that can be used in an engine, what specs for the inside of the engine using those materials.

Technology is about human resources, that is why it is called "knowhow". Computers are not technology, making the chips and storage devices and writing the software are technology. You can buy hardware but technology cannot be bought any more that you can buy a knowledge of Sanskrit because you want to catch up with what you have missed.

Educated Indians still believe that factories make things. It's humans that make things. Indian technical knowledge base is still so poor even among highly educated Indians that most seem to go about thinking that factories will make things. You need know how to make the machines that make the components of engines and even more knowhow to use those components to make the engine. This is about a very broad industrial and technical knowledge base that was set up in the west and Russia and Japan in the late 1800s and early 1900s. We are actually 100 years behind. And we don't even know it.

Even our IITs that are at the pinnacle of our engineering mug-pot creation are very low down in the world when it comes to post-graduate engineering studies at hi-funda level. If we need private sector to do something it is to set up high level research insitutes and fund them so we can catch up in 50 years. Why are we depending on IIT and government for high level engineering research? We curse the GoI for everything, call then traitors etc, but every goddam Indian wants to put his son in IIT so he can get placement abroad after studying in IIT in dirt cheap, subsidized socialist style. And then we curse Nehru for socialism. It's not GoI. It's us the "private" citizens and greedy private entrepreneurs who are stupid. We want cheap education, and we will not invest in research. Then we buy high tech and praise the foreign entity that has bust its butt developing tech for decades and imagine that we will get the stuff by simply buying up a loss making factory. That is business-vysyagiri - what we need is not vysya buddhi. We need some shudra hard work and the vysya to spend money keeping investing in those shudras. We need shudra engineers, not brahman engineers.

After 15 years of BRF I still find people coming up with the same ideas. :roll:



Thats what I ment. Any company that may have been successful at one time will have a huge database of research which will also include a Human component.It may not be top notch but will still be better than what GTRE has at the moment. Ofcourse retaining the Human component will depend on the skills of the acquiring company. Today if someone bought MIG ,even keeping in mind the state MIG is in today no one would say that it was a bad buy compared to HAL even though HAL has billions on its order book.
Last edited by Will on 25 Jul 2012 14:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby svinayak » 25 Jul 2012 12:31

shiv wrote:
Will wrote:Arent there any bankrupt engine makers around? Maybe one of our private sector companies can go ahead and buy one of them 8)


It's not the factories or the machinery that is important. It is the technology - that is what materials to use in what proportions and how to treat those materials to create a material that can be used in an engine, what specs for the inside of the engine using those materials.

Technology is about human resources, that is why it is called "knowhow". Computers are not technology, making the chips and storage devices and writing the software are technology. You can buy hardware but technology cannot be bought any more that you can buy a knowledge of Sanskrit because you want to catch up with what you have missed.

Educated Indians still believe that factories make things.

It is about the accumulated knowledge built over several decades.It needs the companies and academic institutions who will keep those knowledge for expanding.
I have my cousin who is the radar design engineer. He is just a diploma holder (ITI) but designs the most sophisticated radar components in Blore for the def industry. Recently I had a talk with him and he says now the industry is going in the right direction to build the *capability*. He was comparing with the western countries and I had to tell him about the decades of work done in those countries > 50 years

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 25 Jul 2012 17:11

I had to tell him about the decades of work done in those countries > 50 years


That is very, very true, but only in some cases.

For instance India is leading edge in software, it can catch up in electronics (which is what I suspect you cousin meant to say - and that is possible), but, in material science (as in the Kaveri) it is a difference in light years. Even in material sciences India can solve individual problems and they have in dire circumstances(1971 war), Kanchan could be another example. But to gather the cumulative knowledge base, which is what is needed, is a different story.

Also, I suspect somebody has already stated this, Indian engineers have made a difference, but very little in India. But that should chance in the years to come.

My major concern is not the sciences, it is management.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Jul 2012 18:29

They need to separate R&D projects and Production projects separately.. this is a fundamental problem in PM. I think, even specifying a date for K10 is wrong.. it has to be delinked, but LCA TD/PV available for testing them out.. It is mandatory for GTRE to fix whatever they have on LCA. MUST. They can have as many LCAs they want for R&D, but they have to show progress on LCA.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 25 Jul 2012 19:16

NRao wrote:My major concern is not the sciences, it is management.


Planning to offer your services as a management consultant, are you?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2012 01:03

You need sciences and management, but focus should be on engineering.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 29 Jul 2012 11:32

deleted by moderator, user warned.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby paramu » 29 Jul 2012 12:51

NRao wrote:For instance India is leading edge in software, it can catch up in electronics (which is what I suspect you cousin meant to say - and that is possible), but, in material science (as in the Kaveri) it is a difference in light years. Even in material sciences India can solve individual problems and they have in dire circumstances(1971 war), Kanchan could be another example. But to gather the cumulative knowledge base, which is what is needed, is a different story.

Also, I suspect somebody has already stated this, Indian engineers have made a difference, but very little in India. But that should chance in the years to come.

My major concern is not the sciences, it is management.

Even the design engineering and mass production needs lot of changes

World class military production with R&D to keep pushing to the next level is the key
This needs several decades

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 29 Jul 2012 19:39

As we are indulging in personal attacks, It would better that we insult each other in more informed way:-

http://www.geopolitics.in/feb2012.aspx

Refer page 34-35

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Jul 2012 22:34

Planning to offer your services as a management consultant, are you?


Hope all is well in NullPointException. Since you have been there for some 15+ years (96/97?), it must be real nice out there.

To answer your question Sir, no. I can see my EOL sign - clear and bright.

However, in my next life I am (seriously?) thinking about leading DRDO!!!

My CS is excellent, management, depending on what aspect, I am on the average very good. But my weakness is hardware!! So ............. I have decided to spend the few days I have to concentrate on harware

Making very good progress I must say.

So, if you see an article in a few years, after I really move on, of a 5 year old addicted to BR, a Ph D by 12 and applying at DRDO - that just could be me. That is the plan. Leaving rest to the Almighty.

(It would be fun to deal with these jurnos too. So, I am also praying that I make a very quick turn around.)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 30 Jul 2012 01:58

So now from everything fine and DDM, we are coming down to accepting problems with the engine. Looking at your posts, especially when you made personal comments without provocation, wonder why u r running to admins. Your brain is in gutter already, no need to go there.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kit » 30 Jul 2012 08:23

shiv wrote:
Will wrote:Arent there any bankrupt engine makers around? Maybe one of our private sector companies can go ahead and buy one of them 8)


It's not the factories or the machinery that is important. It is the technology - that is what materials to use in what proportions and how to treat those materials to create a material that can be used in an engine, what specs for the inside of the engine using those materials.

Technology is about human resources, that is why it is called "knowhow". Computers are not technology, making the chips and storage devices and writing the software are technology. You can buy hardware but technology cannot be bought any more that you can buy a knowledge of Sanskrit because you want to catch up with what you have missed.

Educated Indians still believe that factories make things. It's humans that make things. Indian technical knowledge base is still so poor even among highly educated Indians that most seem to go about thinking that factories will make things. You need know how to make the machines that make the components of engines and even more knowhow to use those components to make the engine. This is about a very broad industrial and technical knowledge base that was set up in the west and Russia and Japan in the late 1800s and early 1900s. We are actually 100 years behind. And we don't even know it.

Even our IITs that are at the pinnacle of our engineering mug-pot creation are very low down in the world when it comes to post-graduate engineering studies at hi-funda level. If we need private sector to do something it is to set up high level research insitutes and fund them so we can catch up in 50 years. Why are we depending on IIT and government for high level engineering research? We curse the GoI for everything, call then traitors etc, but every goddam Indian wants to put his son in IIT so he can get placement abroad after studying in IIT in dirt cheap, subsidized socialist style. And then we curse Nehru for socialism. It's not GoI. It's us the "private" citizens and greedy private entrepreneurs who are stupid. We want cheap education, and we will not invest in research. Then we buy high tech and praise the foreign entity that has bust its butt developing tech for decades and imagine that we will get the stuff by simply buying up a loss making factory. That is business-vysyagiri - what we need is not vysya buddhi. We need some shudra hard work and the vysya to spend money keeping investing in those shudras. We need shudra engineers, not brahman engineers.

After 15 years of BRF I still find people coming up with the same ideas. :roll:


Well said Shiv.In this context i should say reverse engineering is not a bad idea to learn / do things .. you can improve and learn as you get along., but if you sit and wait for others to spoon feed you, it will never happen.Japan did it , china is doing it. This way a whole ecosystem might be built, but there has to be an incentive to do all this.If china was a democracy and had access to western tech much before they wouldnt have the incentive to build/copy on their own.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 30 Jul 2012 15:39

NRao wrote:
Planning to offer your services as a management consultant, are you?


Hope all is well in NullPointException. Since you have been there for some 15+ years (96/97?), it must be real nice out there.

To answer your question Sir, no. I can see my EOL sign - clear and bright.

However, in my next life I am (seriously?) thinking about leading DRDO!!!

My CS is excellent, management, depending on what aspect, I am on the average very good. But my weakness is hardware!! So ............. I have decided to spend the few days I have to concentrate on harware

Making very good progress I must say.

So, if you see an article in a few years, after I really move on, of a 5 year old addicted to BR, a Ph D by 12 and applying at DRDO - that just could be me. That is the plan. Leaving rest to the Almighty.

(It would be fun to deal with these jurnos too. So, I am also praying that I make a very quick turn around.)


Hmm. Things are going well in null land, being shunyata nothing to go wrong :twisted:

I think the problems are more of technology (more accurately weakness in) and overall vision and driving to achieve that vision rather than a pure management issue. Not very sure if extremely good project management can overcome this basic weakness.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 31 Jul 2012 16:10

vic wrote:As per reports from flying test bed test of kaveri engine, there were problems in Fan and LP, which shows that all this chest beating about lack of SCB is to hide the fact that Kaveri is facing problem across the board even in very basics.


Wow!
How is any problem in the LP / Fan a basic problem? Did he explain the problem in detail and lament that it is a "basic" problem.
How did you arrive at that conclusion? Because LP and Fan are basic parts?

Bliss to explain here !!


----------

I really liked the article. The folks in GTRE are quite clear , frank and know where there are shortcomings.

In this very thread , a long time ago, somebody called N3 posted that 2 things are required - high T and high compression ratio . The expert in the article names the same things and the parts and technologies required to achieve that.
1. The right material for the blades ( to allow higher pressure and higher T operation )
2. The second is blade coating. This I think acts as some kind of temperature insulation to the blade structure itself, allowing the blade to keep its integrity without pressure or T breaking it.
3. The third is a capillary system which cools the blade from inside, allowing for higher temperature operation.

The biggest gift the lot at GTRE has given the nation is to provide the infrastructure and knowledge to build engines. This is usually the toughest part and the learning curve is steepest here. I think GTRE has already done that and they must be admired for that!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 31 Jul 2012 18:18

Blade materials and the internally cooled blades will be the biggest challenges.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 31 Jul 2012 20:26

I think one should watch Dr Saraswat's interview, where he says very clear that they bungled up on requirements - never saw future. Hopefully that lesson will be retained. I am more concerned at Snecma deal. I want this all by ourselves. Let it me 120kN or 100kN.

It is no a null point, but a mute point if requirements are not heeded to... IAF and IN should advance and stay put on their requirements.. make GTRE work for it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tejas » 31 Jul 2012 22:17

According to the article posted by Vic and it was straight from the Kaveri project director, Snecma was providing SCB tech. thermal barrier coating tech. and Blisk tech. So what the hell is GTRE providing. The extent of tech. transfer by Snecma is essentially gifting India the ability to produce gas turbine engines for fighters in India independently. It hardly seems likely they would do this solely to get a joint venture deal. The only thing that makes sense to me is that this is quid pro quo for the Rafale deal and the Mirage upgrade rape, I mean deal.
Last edited by tejas on 01 Aug 2012 05:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kit » 31 Jul 2012 22:27

tejas wrote:According to the article posted by Vic and it was straight from the Kaveri project director, Snecma was providing SCB tech. thermal barrier coating tech. and Blisk tech. So what the hell is GTRE providing. The extent of tech. transfer by Snecma is essentially gifting India the ability to produce gas turbine engines for fighters in India independently. It hardly seems likely they would do this solely to get a joint venture deal. The only thing that makes sense to me is that this quid pro quo for the Rafale deal and the Mirade upgrade rape, I mean deal.


could be.I think it is going along the 'viking' way

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 01 Aug 2012 01:29

kit wrote:
tejas wrote:According to the article posted by Vic and it was straight from the Kaveri project director, Snecma was providing SCB tech. thermal barrier coating tech. and Blisk tech. So what the hell is GTRE providing. The extent of tech. transfer by Snecma is essentially gifting India the ability to produce gas turbine engines for fighters in India independently. It hardly seems likely they would do this solely to get a joint venture deal. The only thing that makes sense to me is that this quid pro quo for the Rafale deal and the Mirade upgrade rape, I mean deal.


could be.I think it is going along the 'viking' way



Maybe thats why the deal with Snecma hasnt been signed yet. The Frenchies probably the Rafale deal signed and bagged before they go ahead with the engine deal :evil:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Katare » 01 Aug 2012 03:36

tejas wrote:According to the article posted by Vic and it was straight from the Kaveri project director, Snecma was providing SCB tech. thermal barrier coating tech. and Blisk tech. So what the hell is GTRE providing. The extent of tech. transfer by Snecma is essentially gifting India the ability to produce gas turbine engines for fighters in India independently. It hardly seems likely they would do this solely to get a joint venture deal. The only thing that makes sense to me is that this quid pro quo for the Rafale deal and the Mirade upgrade rape, I mean deal.


GTRE is providing 'capability to absorb" the ToT! :lol:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 01 Aug 2012 03:39

Neela wrote:
I really liked the article. The folks in GTRE are quite clear , frank and know where there are shortcomings.

In this very thread , a long time ago, somebody called N3 posted that 2 things are required - high T and high compression ratio . The expert in the article names the same things and the parts and technologies required to achieve that.
1. The right material for the blades ( to allow higher pressure and higher T operation )
2. The second is blade coating. This I think acts as some kind of temperature insulation to the blade structure itself, allowing the blade to keep its integrity without pressure or T breaking it.
3. The third is a capillary system which cools the blade from inside, allowing for higher temperature operation.


Neela: N3 said that "new materials" are not necessarily the solution to the problem. He raised questions about the fundamental design choices, CFD modeling and the layout of the engine itself. His erudition was in Pinglish with a lot of pie-bass ratios, which pie-bass'ed me altogether! I think Vina was the only one who understood what was said. But his larger point was that "blaming the lack of exotic materials/blisks" is taking the easy way out. The real solution is to attack the problem from first principles of engineering and a lot of trial & error, setting up of test-beds etc, which in his opinion the GTRE folks were loathe to do. Hence he had little faith that the organization, in its current form, will produce a capable engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Aug 2012 06:55

Hmm. Things are going well in null land, being shunyata nothing to go wrong :twisted:

I think the problems are more of technology (more accurately weakness in) and overall vision and driving to achieve that vision rather than a pure management issue. Not very sure if extremely good project management can overcome this basic weakness.


That 'lil thing called vision, needs the most amount of management. In fact visionaries are among the best managers: self managers that is. Vision IS managed foresight. What you are complaining about is un-managed vision.

India does not lack vision: plenty of examples out there. It lacks managed vision and once the vision is activated it lacks simple project management. Running out of steel for a major ship project is total lack of PM. Vision is there in this case. Managed vision.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_23360 » 01 Aug 2012 07:22

we already achieved 70 - 80 kn, we can definitely achieve at least 90 - 100 kn. If we will try to achieve this on our own we may take another 3 - 4 years OR we can reduce this time by taking help from snecma/GE/NPO Saturn.

Snecma wants a guaranteed purchase of engine before entering into JV, i think we can give this guarantee but number of engines should be restricted to 50-75.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Aug 2012 07:24

Prem Kumar wrote:Neela: N3 said that "new materials" are not necessarily the solution to the problem. He raised questions about the fundamental design choices, CFD modeling and the layout of the engine itself. His erudition was in Pinglish with a lot of pie-bass ratios, which pie-bass'ed me altogether! I think Vina was the only one who understood what was said. But his larger point was that "blaming the lack of exotic materials/blisks" is taking the easy way out. The real solution is to attack the problem from first principles of engineering and a lot of trial & error, setting up of test-beds etc, which in his opinion the GTRE folks were loathe to do. Hence he had little faith that the organization, in its current form, will produce a capable engine.


N3 was/is no ordinary run-of-the-mill person. He has patents in aeronautics, plenty of top notch Ph. D. students, not to mention Masters candidates and undergrads. His honor list will easily fill a page in 9 pt font. About 10 years or so ago I had posted his mind boggling achievement - he had one of the admins promptly remove it. I would not be surprised if he is among the top 5%ish in the US in aeronautics/space.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tejas » 01 Aug 2012 07:25

In the article, the Kaveri project director says with help from Snecma the 90 kN engine will take 5 years to fructify.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby pentaiah » 01 Aug 2012 08:27

I for one believe that if Kaveri project is turned over to BARC they will deliver the engine in 1 year or 2 max with one test it might even be flight worthy and into serial production.
They have all the expertise based one poster here named Alok N. I don't know why he is not here anymore?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 01 Aug 2012 11:15

Prem Kumar wrote: But his larger point was that "blaming the lack of exotic materials/blisks" is taking the easy way out.

Ah yes, I do remember this too from him.

But if the Program Manager of Kaveri says that there is a 150 degree difference in temperature and shortfall of X.Y in compression ratio leading due to a difference of Z amount of thrust, and this can be overcome through the three things he listed, either you believe him or you don't. Simples.

pentaiah wrote:

I for one believe that if Kaveri project is turned over to BARC they will deliver the engine in 1 year or 2 max with one test it might even be flight worthy and into serial production.
They have all the expertise based one poster here named Alok N. I don't know why he is not here anymore?


Sirji, apparently everyone including BARC and ISRO can sort the problem except GTRE.
MOvement of scientists across different institutions is common no? Why, what is stopping Dr.Saraswat throwing more expertise and resources from BARC at Kaveri. Are you telling him something he does not know already? I am thinking BARC/ISRO have no clue either - this is a different beast. And until such time someone from BARC takes over the project and delivers, I am right when I say BARC has no clue.

Here is another anecdote. Relative from my inlaws side works for BHEL. Anna Univ alumni who has worked his way up since the 1980s. Now BHEL has been in the power gen business for several decades. Yet we import the core turbine. Where was BARC and ISRO all this time?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Aug 2012 03:07

NRao wrote:N3 was/is no ordinary run-of-the-mill person.


Yes, I know. I was pointing out to Neela a contrarian viewpoint (N3's) about the problems in Kaveri being more about engineering discipline, rather than materials science.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 Aug 2012 03:29

I would say, seriously we need to cancel the snecma project. cause:

1. The time to take a decision about AMCA requirements [read Dr. Saraswat's replies/video] that they are waiting for the right specifications and don't want to make basic mistakes on kNs.

2. There is no real benefit in jump-starting here.. in fact no company in the world would do it for free. Even if we pour billions, it is not worth it, and all patents will be held by snecma.. still, they would make us pay for it, and keep the real core tech with them.. they want the ECO core in for sure.

3. They have nothing in their line to proof a working copy of 100kN engine. IAF has clearly stated in this requirement. If that is not adhered to, then write on anybody's forehead that a massive project failure to happen in the future.

4. We have a fantastic milestone of flying this 80kN wet wala on the IL platform.. next thing is mandatory to get it ported on the LCA TD versions.

5. Parallel start working on the 100kN wet wala.. Just keep the GE414 IN version as the baseline spec., in terms of T:W/kNs/size/weight/technology/etc.

5 steps to glory.. it is a must.. delink this to R&D only, while GE414 continues. THis is important for the future.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby suryag » 02 Aug 2012 03:44

Armchair chaprasi uvvacha - The ruskies were able to compensate for exotic materials by designing the aircraft around the engine dimensions. I remember seeing some program where the tumansky engine in mig25 was made and the airframe redesigned to accommodate the huge air intakes(agreed it is turbo jet) but by scaling the components in the current kaveri we can possibly reach 100KN(gurus?) the thing is it will need a new airframe and may not fit the aMCA frame requirements.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Aug 2012 03:47

I think it too late for discussions. The die has been cast. Going back would mean - if I read the situation right - that lot would have to undone.

I am just hoping that India got, as part of the deal, access to a computer based nuke testing facility. What good are all these French air crafts if India cannot field a good sized nuke?


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