Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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m mittal
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby m mittal » 29 Sep 2008 05:49

I also think that Arjun did not have a good support from the end user but as of now Tejas seems to be having a good support from the end user. So I presume and hope that fate of LCA will not be same as Arjun.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 05 Nov 2008 01:16

Cross post

How could we miss this ?

DRDO has entered into a JV (Joint Venture) agreement with Scema of France for design aspects of the Kaveri Engine added Mr Rao. “While the first of the prototypes will be manufactured in France, the full engine will be manufactured by the HAL at a later stage” he said.


So we have handed over the development of Kaveri to French or to put it in another way M88 will be uprated to 100kn and called a kaveri Mark-x :evil:


The king is deal! Long live the king!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby krishnan » 05 Nov 2008 10:33

Raj Malhotra wrote:Cross post

How could we miss this ?

DRDO has entered into a JV (Joint Venture) agreement with Scema of France for design aspects of the Kaveri Engine added Mr Rao. “While the first of the prototypes will be manufactured in France, the full engine will be manufactured by the HAL at a later stage” he said.


So we have handed over the development of Kaveri to French or to put it in another way M88 will be uprated to 100kn and called a kaveri Mark-x :evil:


The king is deal! Long live the king!


Two paras before this

The GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) that is manufacturing the engine for use in the Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) has successfully completed all air-worthy tests will finally put the engine into the LCA said T Mohana Rao, Director, GTRE.

“A series of tests on the engine, including the core engine and full engine tests that have been on since 1998 has been successfully completed with the latest test that was conducted in Russia in September, performing well.

We hope to have the engine in the LCA by the end of 2009” said Mr Rao.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vishwakarmaa » 05 Nov 2008 17:09

m mittal wrote:I also think that Arjun did not have a good support from the end user but as of now Tejas seems to be having a good support from the end user. So I presume and hope that fate of LCA will not be same as Arjun.


End users for LCA and Arjun are different. Two different people lead Army and Airforce independently. Though, I find Navy more sensible institution when it comes to capabilities building for national security.

Army and airforce leaders are more of 'under western psy-op' type with no long-term national security vision.

Anyways, thats my personal opinion. No pun intended.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby K Mehta » 07 Nov 2008 18:34

Kaveri in LCA by 2009
Kaveri engine will be installed into the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by the end of 2009, said Director of Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohan Rao.

Briefing newspersons on the sidelines of a function organised to mark the Raising Day function of GTRE at its premises at C V Raman Nagar, Rao said, “Two more milestones are yet to be crossed by the engine, prior to its installation which is likely to be by Dec 2009.” It has cleared all the tests for airworthy certification, he said. The engine is yet to be tried under fully simulated altitude conditions, which will take place in Moscow between February and March, next year. India’s consultants in the venture are CIAM of Russia, MTU of Germany and ATC in UK, he added.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sum » 07 Nov 2008 18:44

K Mehta wrote:Kaveri in LCA by 2009
Kaveri engine will be installed into the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas by the end of 2009, said Director of Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohan Rao.

What is the snecma deal for if the Kaveri is being installed in the LCA? Is it that the Kaveri will replace the F-404/414 in the block-1 LCA and in later versions, it wil be the Snecma-Kaveri inside the LCA? :-?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby krishnan » 07 Nov 2008 19:54

What did they do with kaveri to suddenly make it worthy enough. Some magic?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Nitesh » 07 Nov 2008 20:15

What are "tow milestones" he is talking about in kaveri?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 07 Nov 2008 20:33

krishnan wrote:What did they do with kaveri to suddenly make it worthy enough. Some magic?

I think they did something that they should have done right from the beginning --> Did their work resiliently and got in some timely foreign help instead of running to media announcing new plans and deadlines. Oops, hope this 2009 doesn't turn out to be another one of those deadlines. Touch wood.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 07 Nov 2008 23:11

It doesnt matter how the Kaveri achieves its performance but it matters that a Kaveri powers the LCA.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Daedalus » 07 Nov 2008 23:42

Nitesh wrote:What are "tow milestones" he is talking about in kaveri?


Good question. To add to that I have some more.

- Is the weight reduction archived?
- Has the thrust improved?
- Is it K9 or has K10 already been made ready?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 09 Nov 2008 16:23

India's first aero-engine 'Kaveri' may be ready in 4 years

The DRDO is expected to shortlist the winner "any time now," a top Snecma official said and expressed confidence that once the contract is awarded the engines would be ready in four years' time.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sum » 09 Nov 2008 18:20


If we are getting our first aero engine in 4 years(which means 2012-13), then what is the GTRE chief talking about when he says that our K-9/K-10 will be LCA fitted in 09? :-?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby bart » 09 Nov 2008 18:22

He only said fitted, not fly, didn't he? :lol:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Anabhaya » 09 Nov 2008 19:32

Maybe they have got close to original target of achieving 90kN thrust and will try flying that on a Tejas while Snecma will help them 'fine tune' it further to achieve the revised target.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Sontu » 09 Nov 2008 23:04

Anabhaya wrote:Maybe they have got close to original target of achieving 90kN thrust and will try flying that on a Tejas while Snecma will help them 'fine tune' it further to achieve the revised target.


May be the integration with LCA will start in 2009 but the baseline engine with required thrust will be available only in 2012-13,assuming controlls will be the same for a pilot, only change will be internal..i.e. improved engine core for higher thrust.
May be Gurus can elaborate more on this...

Regards,

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Nov 2008 23:27

Snecma Vice President said, adding that while high pressure part of the engine will be produced by Snecma, the low pressure part will be developed by Bangalore-based GTRE


point to be noted.. btw, could it be M88-2E4 that is new and improved core that could share with mmrca should they win the mrca deal as well!? lots of pointers here.

That way, the core is still frenchie, and it would take at least a decade to make them agree to transfer those core tech., while Kaveri could learn from the m88 core and come up clean on the india-genous factor... every desi's wish.

As earlier said by france, they would not re-invent the wheel and they will use m-88 core for Kaveri. Not sure, what was Saturn's plan though? nothing out in public.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 10 Nov 2008 00:14

We are not getting tech for Hot part of Shakti engine inspite of importing hundreds of engines. Same might happen with Kaveri.

Kaveri is dead! Long live the Kaveri

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 10 Nov 2008 00:31

let us wait for more news to come instead of sitting and crying already

by all available news it should be clear that there are 2-3 direction to kaveri program

basic kaveri is for light aircraft, uav, navy ship, power generation
kaveri mk 2 is for lca with french m88 core with tot for same section and gtre low pressure section

if lca fly with this i am happy
this is same method as volvo aero customised version of ge404 for gripen manufactur by volvo aero
and its not american so no sanctions

french give tot if you give enough money

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Vipul » 10 Nov 2008 20:36

DRDO set to announce foreign partner for Kaveri jet engine.

Paris: Even as India's indigenous fighter programme, the Light Combat Aircraft, continues to make encouraging progress conducting its first night flight last week, DRDO's stalled Kaveri jet engine programme may receive an important boost with co-development and production plans with a foreign company likely to be unveiled soon.

Indications are that the DRDO may settle into a four year co-development and co-production arrangement with European aero-engine manufacturer Snecma. It is also considering an offer from Russian engine manufacturer, NPO Saturn. The deal with Snecma may finally result in commercial manufacture of the Kaveri engine and the LCA Tejas.

Reports quote a top Snecma officials as saying that the India's Defence and Research Development Organisation (DRDO) will announce the winner of the development contract "any time now." The official has expressed confidence that once the contract is awarded the engines would be ready in four years' time.

"We have submitted a short and secure four-year plan as the Kaveri engine development time-frame," said Xavier Sahut D'izarn, vice president, military engines, Snecma group.

DRDO laboratories have so far developed nine prototypes of the Kaveri engine but appear to have reached a dead-end after last high-altitude tests, conducted at Russian facilities, failed once again.

According to Sahut D'izarn, the Kaveri would be a nine-tonne capacity engine with a low thrust-to- weight ratio. "We will transfer full know-how and the engines would be developed and produced by HAL in India," D'izarn said.

"Its going to be a joint Indo-French engine with shared expertise with gradual transfer of full know-how," the Snecma vice president said. Importantly, the official said that while high pressure parts of the engine will be produced by his company, the low pressure part will be developed by Bangalore-based GTRE, a DRDO subsidiary.

The DRDO chief, M. Natarajan has earlier said that the Kaveri had achieved 95 per cent capability and it was the last 5 per cent that it had failed to negotiate. Critically, it was this last 5 per cent that constituted the 'slam effect' of any jet fighter engine.

Natarajan has attributed a number of reasons to this failure, which are mainly historical in nature. India has much to catch up on, not just in areas of engine technology but also in related areas such as metallurgy, which are critical for the development of any engine of such sophistication.

With DRDO's efforts to develop the LCA receiving a massive boost after defence minister AK Anthony's announcement that the Indian Air Force will eventually induct as many as 150 Tejas fighters into its squadrons, it is now understandable that the DRDO should give the Kaveri development programme a much needed shot in the arm.

The initial 40 Tejas LCAs are to powered by US General Electric 404 engine. The power provided by the GE 404 engines may not be enough to allow the Tejas to achieve its multi-role capability in full.

According to Snecma officials, the nine-tonne thrust capability and low thrust ratio of the new Kaveri engine would provide Tejas the capability to undertake air-to-air, air-to-ground as well as carrier-borne operations.

The DRDO floated international tenders in 2005 for co-development and received a response from four companies, Pratt and Whitney, GE, Snecma and NPO Saturn for its Request for Proposals (RFP). The RFP was modified and re-floated in 2006 to include co-production along with co-development.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 10 Nov 2008 21:01

Vipul wrote:According to Sahut D'izarn, the Kaveri would be a nine-tonne capacity engine with a low thrust-to- weight ratio. "We will transfer full know-how and the engines would be developed and produced by HAL in India," D'izarn said.



Gurus, is the bold part accurate, low thrust to weight ratio? (T/W)?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 10 Nov 2008 23:37

and will 90kn be adequate for future variants that will add on AESA + IRST, perhaps conformal tanks, tvc, weapon shields, more weapon attachment points etc. I think that Kaveri should now plan for future LCA & MCA also. 90kn seems less to me. unless it is 90kn de-rated with easy upgrade to say 120-150kn :twisted:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Katare » 11 Nov 2008 00:16

This is my understanding after correlating bunch of official interviews........

Even if Kaveri achieves 100% of thrust and all other objectives, it still would not be good enough for LCA's changed GSQR. The current LCA is full 2 tons heavier than what was Kaveri conceived for.

LCA is going ahead with a new foreign engine to be selected by IAF from a short list being prepared by ADA. Independent of LCA program, GTRE would develop Kaveri with a new and much larger foreign core for thrust exceeding 110Kn to have any chance of being accepted for last few LCA squadrons. This new Kaveri would be as Indian as Shakti engine for ALH.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 11 Nov 2008 00:19

Raj M, hope you weren't part of GSQR team for IAF. We did hear in the circles that a 105kN is what the max IAF wants[was it you? :twisted: ].. and that would be only for future blocks ie, Kaveri-2. However, I haven't heard of any rafael version that is supposed to have a single 90kn engine itself. currently they are powered by dual 75kn engines. 90kN has been demonstrated by Snecma., that's all., onlee.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kartik » 11 Nov 2008 08:33

sunilUpa wrote:
Vipul wrote:According to Sahut D'izarn, the Kaveri would be a nine-tonne capacity engine with a low thrust-to- weight ratio. "We will transfer full know-how and the engines would be developed and produced by HAL in India," D'izarn said.



Gurus, is the bold part accurate, low thrust to weight ratio? (T/W)?


haha..DDM wouldn't even know what T/W ratio stands for..it should be the opposite- the M-88 has a good T/W ratio and this joint venture will see the high pressure section probably coming from the M-88.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neshant » 11 Nov 2008 12:20

India's first aero-engine 'Kaveri' may be ready in 4 years


if they are using a foreign core... does that mean the kaveri is junk? if so, gtre has failed for the second time in creating a viable engine for India's second fighter.

.
Last edited by Neshant on 11 Nov 2008 12:37, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Nov 2008 12:36

>>>if they are using a foreign core... does that mean the kaveri is junk? if so, gtre has failed for the second time in creating a viable engine for India's second fighter.

No, not at all. All that it means is :

Indian scientists have developed Kaveri to the original design parameters. With the technology currently available in india, they are not able to proceed further, and increase the thrust / TET without much variations in the dimentions. They are seeking foreign collaboration to overcome this difficulty.

If you ask me, having reached this far itself is a significant achievement (particularly with so many canards from so many people including those who don't have a clue about what they are talking). Now, if someone is wondering why they are not able to produce something better than the best available, it is not the fault of GTRE.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neshant » 11 Nov 2008 12:40

They are seeking foreign collaboration to overcome this difficulty.


Somehow I doubt.

Rest assured French and just about all foreign plane and engine manufacturers have NO interest whatsoever in seeing India become self-sufficient in engine development.

The only thing that's going to happen in 4 years is the foreign engines are going to undergo some minor modifications with India contributing/learning little of significance. The engines will then be imported as kits or built under licence with Indians doing screw driver assembly to put it together. The French have said they have already done the research and development and won't to go through it again just for India. Once they throw out the Kaveri's core, that's the end of the Kaveri which is exactly what they are proposing. Co-development is just a BS word GTRE is trying to throw around to disguise their failure on the project. They won't co-develop anything other than screw driver technology.

Unless I'm mistaken, the kaveri looks set to go the way of the Arjun tank.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby neerajb » 11 Nov 2008 13:00

Neshant wrote:
India's first aero-engine 'Kaveri' may be ready in 4 years


if they are using a foreign core... does that mean the kaveri is junk? if so, gtre has failed for the second time in creating a viable engine for India's second fighter.


I am also doubtful what India is going to gain out of this GTRE + Snecma JV. Unless Snecma teaches GTRE (like a teacher) the receipe of jet engine manufacture, this effort is useless. There are conflicting reports in media. GTRE says that it met the dry thrust requirements but facing problems in wet thrust (i.e. afterburner). On the other hand this Snecma+GTRE JV says that core will be from Snecma and low pressure compressor/turbine + afterburner from GTRE. If their afterburner design is not matured then how is it going to help the new Kaveri. I somehow feel that GTRE failed to give the results considering it is their second attempt.

Cheers....

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Nov 2008 13:11

>>>Rest assured French and just about all foreign plane and engine manufacturers have NO interest whatsoever in seeing India become self-sufficient in engine development.

Okay, if nobody is willing to give what we want, what is the next best thing to do? take what is on offer. In the meantime, try and improve indegnous ability.

What I can see is this : The cold part (of the core to be mated with the 'ready made' hot part) French are allowing Indians to develop - hopefully they will help if Indians make mistakes. To me that's okay, may not be worth the money spent. But then sometimes it may be necessary to save time.

We don't know the finer details of the deal. It is all heresay and speculation. No point in splitting hair on something unknown. Still worse is blaming GTRE for everything. baba! they don't know how to design a state-of-the art Gas turbine engine. It has to evolve over a period of time - like the rockets India has developed over three decades. It will surely happen - have faith.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vicky_iyer » 11 Nov 2008 14:01

The problem is that nobody wants to face the truth. In the name of patriotism everything goes.
GTRE and DRDO are inept organization. They need real-time organizational and structural changes.

Show me 1 high profile project which these organizations have executed successfully. Be it the Arjun tank, a plethora of missiles or LCA. How many heads have rolled? none. They started with making an airborne warning system, it's been more than 10 years and it's still going on. In the meanwhile Airforce went ahead with phalcon. Same with LCA it's been more than 20 years, and it's still going on. The Airforce does not want to say it, but these 126 aircrafts are nothing but what LCA should have replaced.

I mean we can all keep talking about TOT or collaboration. You can never have collaboration between 2 unequal partners. anywhere in the world this kind of arrangement results in the junior partner being fleeced.

So what should we do. Let's get realistic. Buy this 404 or 414 from GE, fit it to LCA and make it fly. If you keep waiting for Kaveri; it ain't happening; We may want it to happen, but.....

Arjun=Engine German+shockers french+electronics and control system (Israel) + fire control system (Indian). So basically we took more than 25years to develop the armor and fire control system. The Army is unwilling to equip even an Armored brigade with Arjun.

I see the same happening with LCA.
LCA=engine (USA or French or whoever)+Radar(USA or French or who ever)+Control System(India)+Avionics (Hardware not Indian; Driver software probably Indian).
On top of this, requirement changes from the Air force.

Call me a pessimist or whatever; Either we accept we are the superstars and build things on our own; or accept our in-ability and keep paying and begging for arms from the western world.

A country of our size still imports 70% of weapon system.

I feel DRDO thinks it is being smart here= Throw money and French will teach you how to make an engine; throw money and Israelis will teach you how make a radar + throw some more money and some body else will teach you to do something else, because we are like this only.

What if India has a conflict of Interest with the French or Americans tomorrow. What if the French had refused to supply the LGB's during Kargil. Well you would have eventually captured the posts, but I am certain we would have lost many more good men;

The equipment profile during Kargil:

Artillery: 130 mm Russian + 155 mm Bofors Sweden + 105 mm Indian (Tech transfer)

Aircraft: Work horses Mig 27 (Russian) <not at all effective> + Mirage 2000 (French very effective)

Grenade launchers (Russian)

So the only equipment Indian out there was:

1> Insas personal weapon system + Indian Guts.


Has the weapon profile changed in the last 5 years. you bet; we have added some Russian and American toys. I would request people in the forum to let me know which all Indian systems were inducted into the Army, Navy or Airforce in the last 5 years which have had their complete life cycle done at DRDO <Even basic system may be mentioned>. Please don't say Prithvi.

To cut it short, We need some big time reforms in the the workings of DRDO labs, if we need to get something useful out of there.

-Vicky-
-The higher the Iyer goes the lower the Iyer falls-

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Nov 2008 14:21

>>>I would request people in the forum to let me know which all Indian systems were inducted into the Army, Navy or Airforce in the last 5 years which have had their complete life cycle done at DRDO <Even basic system may be mentioned>. Please don't say Prithvi.

Instead of asking others to find out for for you, you please move your a$$ and find out yourself - I shall give you a clue - there are many systems for you to look around.

Before you start cribbing about DRDO, tell me what India as a nation has done since Independence, in any sphere viz., basic science, manufacturing sector, world trade, development of cutting edge technology (not just Gas turbine alone), Metallurgy....You take ANYTHING and India's contribution is almost NIL.

Now, all of a sudden you wake up and demand things - it is not going to happen. Don't tell me you give SIXTEEN years for DRDO to develop the engine :(( They may spend another 16 years and still nothing may come out of it.

people are trying to do whatever is possible. No point in jumping up and down and :(( :((

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Nayak » 11 Nov 2008 14:24

vicky_iyer wrote:
-Vicky-
-The higher the Iyer goes the lower the Iyer falls-


AoA,

I am from Bangalore, Kerala. Where are you from ?

W/A Salaam.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 11 Nov 2008 14:51

dear vicky, there is no such thing as a high profile project. so-called high profile projects are the combination of many low profile ones.

instead of ranting, it would do you a world of good if you could spend some time learning about DRDO and its projects.
your post marks you up as an ignorant newbie and a continuation on the same vein would deteriorate your chances of survival on this board further.

A country of our size still imports 70% of weapon system.

canada should be the leader in everything in the world right ? it's waaay bigger than India !
even the USA is smaller ! :shock:

anyway, please go through the wiki DRDO page and answer yourself.
regards.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vicky_iyer » 11 Nov 2008 15:11

Nayak wrote:
vicky_iyer wrote:
-Vicky-
-The higher the Iyer goes the lower the Iyer falls-


AoA,

I am from Bangalore, Kerala. Where are you from ?

W/A Salaam.


Heaallo

Bangalore, Palakkad.

W/A Salaam.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 11 Nov 2008 15:49

Kaveri failed, as predicted by me, 6 six years back on BRF. One of the main reasons is that adequate funds were not alloted to it. We spend only around US$ 500 million to develop it + build labs. While (per reports) are ready to pay Frenchies around US$ 2 Billion for a variant of M88.


That is why i was pointing out that whether even now while getting screw*ed by French it will be first and last time or we will get rap*d for each different variant.

JV are new way of doing sam on tax payer's mushraff like Brahmos, Shakti, T-90 etc

Note France spent US$ 2 Billion in eighties to develop M88. On equivalent we need to spend around US$ 5 Billion on Kaveri + variants for any results.

But now HAL + some PSUs are doing lot glip talking as how they are so good and intelligent as they are "NOT makind" components and subsystems and are importing, I think we are going to be stuck with imports for long............ time.

Note :- Dhruv flew first time in 1991 and till now its import content is 80% and increasing for variants. We have not even bothered to develop all relevant testing equipment and Labs for Kaveri.

Both Kaveri and indian tax payer is well and truely fu*ked

Raj Malhotra
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 11 Nov 2008 16:01

Katare wrote:This is my understanding after correlating bunch of official interviews........

Even if Kaveri achieves 100% of thrust and all other objectives, it still would not be good enough for LCA's changed GSQR. The current LCA is full 2 tons heavier than what was Kaveri conceived for.

LCA is going ahead with a new foreign engine to be selected by IAF from a short list being prepared by ADA. Independent of LCA program, GTRE would develop Kaveri with a new and much larger foreign core for thrust exceeding 110Kn to have any chance of being accepted for last few LCA squadrons. This new Kaveri would be as Indian as Shakti engine for ALH.


How did you get 110kn? recent reports seem to say 90kn

uddu
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby uddu » 11 Nov 2008 16:36

That's the new requirement for which the co-development is sought. The K10 may be ready and functioning properly. This is the one that will be put on the Tejas and later with the new Kaveri-maitri.

Added later:
Oops the K-10 is the JV. K9 seems the version that will be fitted onto the Tejas.
http://frontierindia.net/kaveri-engine-gathers-momentum

vicky_iyer
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vicky_iyer » 11 Nov 2008 17:04

Rahul M wrote:dear vicky, there is no such thing as a high profile project. so-called high profile projects are the combination of many low profile ones.

instead of ranting, it would do you a world of good if you could spend some time learning about DRDO and its projects.
your post marks you up as an ignorant newbie and a continuation on the same vein would deteriorate your chances of survival on this board further.

A country of our size still imports 70% of weapon system.

canada should be the leader in everything in the world right ? it's waaay bigger than India !
even the USA is smaller ! :shock:

anyway, please go through the wiki DRDO page and answer yourself.
regards.


Hello Rahul

You could say I am wining,cribbing and an ignorant newbie. I shall not dis-agree with that completely.
But, I still feel the point I was trying to make is not coming through.
I am not against DRDO, but against the way they execute projects.

I may not know everything about DRDO, I did go to the wiki, but all I saw was a list of on going projects; Not a list of deployed systems. Except for some EWR system on Sukoi, which in the grand scheme of things is no big deal. The total number of (systems-deployed)/(systems-developed) ratio is really bad, ideally it should be 1.

I agree we as a country are pretty backward in basic sciences and have not really contributed to any field in any significant way accept producing babies.
But having said that, the point I was trying to make is this: DRDO has been in this business for more than 30 years now. They need to learn from past mistakes and move on. One of the maxims in the defense forces world over is : "You don't re-enforce failure".
I am quite sure, people knew developing an engine would be a problem; So we should have done some joint venture with the Russian (like Brahmos or who ever that was available for a price). This could have been employed in all problem areas. You would have had an LCA flying in Indian colors by now. Many countries do it. China has just done it with JF-17 (Engine Russian), also I believe their J-10 is based on a lots of Israeli help and design.
But no, DRDO does not do this, they promise they will deliver the moon, get the funds allocated. Spend 20 years and then say, there is a problem.
Ditto for Arjun.
Now I hear they want to go in for some joint venture with the French and Israelis.
What's the use, is my point; this should have been the scheme of things to begin with.

At the end who pays the price; Country+Airforce+Taxpayer.

DRDO needs to change the way they work, and be sure about their capabilities before they take up any new project.

If they think they can't execute something, they must do some joint venture stuff <Meaning pay money and supplier supplies you some technology>.

Well we need to decide, if we as a nation want to be a USA <In a technology sense> or Canada. We have an option of being a Canada. We can ally our selfs with the chinks, become their Satelite like the porkis. Gift Sikkim and Arunachal and live happily ever after.
Or get our orgs like DRDO in order, kick some serious butt and start playing the game. If ISRO can launch a rocket to moon. I seriously believe we can develop a jet engine; What is required is some serious butt kicking and organizational overhaul.

As it's too late for Kaveri, get hold of an engine from the russians or french and at-least get the LCA into air.


-Vicky-
The higher the Iyer goes, the lower the Iyer falls-

sum
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sum » 11 Nov 2008 18:47

Note :- Dhruv flew first time in 1991 and till now its import content is 80% and increasing for variants. We have not even bothered to develop all relevant testing equipment and Labs for Kaveri.

The import content is still 80%?
I thought that we must be reducing the import contents with time...? :-? I am assuming that you are talking about the WSI Dhruv when you say variants (where all weapons are imports and increase % of import content).


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