Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby devaraj_d » 25 Dec 2013 16:21

NRao wrote:"Institutional capacity" is based on economics, which is what my sources argue. It is not due to a lack of brain power. And, that argument seems to hold if one were to accept the article i quoted above.

In the specific case of Kaveri I am inclined to believe it is a material science issue (both due to lack of research and associated production) - not one of design incapability.

Also, more specific to a 1500 hp tank engine, I had mentioned: viewtopic.php?p=1564634#p1564628


Nraoji, general newbie question. I am sorry if this has been already asked and answered.

What happens if it is economical now and we go for it. Once we are tied to a supplier what happens if they raise the price / we are placed under sanctions?

Thanks.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 25 Dec 2013 19:26

The proposed tank engine uses various outsourced and imported components. A list of collaborators was also available on net. Too lazy to google.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 25 Dec 2013 20:31

Engine development proposals by HAL have been 25kn turbofan engine, 1200 kw turboshaft engine and a turboprop engine of unknown power but status of all these proposals is unknown.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby kit » 25 Dec 2013 20:32

maybe IA wants to sit on its future MBT requirements till a 'future' Russian Natasha comes on the scene !

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 25 Dec 2013 21:10

Lilo wrote:IR ji,
Avinash Chandur said it was tested with an imported turbofan. Guess the upcoming test will give more specifics. I for one don't expect a sudden change in the status (from imported to indigenous) : (


No ji for me please.

I had missed that information. However, I am kind of sure that Nirbhay will be operationalized with the engine developed by HAL-ETBRDC. And while on that, is there any information if that is the same as the Laghu Shakti. There have been so many conflicting news items. Laghu Shakti is supposedly being developed with help from Saturn, whereas the HAL engine is supposedly a collaboration with Safran. There are other reports which say that they are one and the same.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Lilo » 25 Dec 2013 23:57

^
IR garu,
Re:Laghu shakthi
I don't know much- only that I heard about it some years back as meant for UAV applications , then its mention stops atleast in defence news items of msm.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Hitesh » 26 Dec 2013 12:48

Maitya,

Thank you so much for your invaluable insights and informative posts. Your posts were the ones I needed to understand where we are at with the Kaveri engine. It is disappointing to know that the Kaveri engine is not producing the thrusts that we need but it is heartening to know that India is not giving up. After all, failure is key to success as engineers would so often say.

I look forward to your posts.

One question: Will 3D printing help in manufacturing turbine blades that will withstand high temperature and force stresses? IIRC, someone posted on this forum about the Chinese trying to get around the metallurgy/manufacturing problem by using 3D printing.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 26 Dec 2013 14:08

Will wrote:What is needed is a program on the lines of the IGMDP for engines of various types for the airforce/navy/army. There will be a lot of failures. It may take a couple of decades like the IGMDP. But there will be a lot of success to .

+1
We need such a program on an industrial scale. This time targeted towards hybrid engines and also battery storage. Let us not fight yesterdays battle. The future of engines in hybrid and energy storage, i.e. Batteries.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby alexis » 26 Dec 2013 17:07

habal wrote:
Acharya wrote:PRC already has all the tech ingredients for Engine. But they have not done it!


They have a J-10B that flies on a WS-10A.
The WS-10A 'Taihang' engine gives 132Kn of thrust.
Watch from 9:25 onwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t69y0M_gNlU


J-11B sports WS-10A and not J-10B. They are not confident of using WS-10A in single engine fighters. But i believe that is a matter of time as WS-10A proves itself in Su27 clones.

We need to drastically improve to reach anywhere near our goals.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 31 Dec 2013 13:01

A small contribution (i hope) :

IL-76 Flying Test bed type Aircraft can only test engines in certain regimes, as dependent on altitude and Aircraft Speed.It is a crude method of Test, very Russian in nature.

Western R&D units (like in UK, Unkil and Germany) can simulate all engine conditions on a Static Ground based Test Bed, with Speed, Altitude and other parameters suitably compensated.

So, my guess is the C-17 offset for an engine test facility is actually very important for further development of Kaveri, more than procuring a suitable IL-76.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 31 Dec 2013 14:16

western engines go into flying testbeds also. they have similar a/c with one engine as plug n play system.
one example https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... vrvTaa5AHg
I find it bit hard to believe russia which has designed dozens of original engines does not have adequate ground test facilities?

I think this wind tunnel thing is among the stuff india asked for as offsets of the numerous P8/C130/C17 deals the US got. it will be in chitradurga campus whose construction is now however under a stay order because a local "activist NGO" got it from the court . no doubt under blessings of the environ ministry or cheen-pasand interests. Khan itself would not mind all our domestic R&D projects go to hell and just sell us finished product with zero tot.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 31 Dec 2013 14:40

No Saar, as you rightly said, Russian Flight tests on IL-76 were successful. Quality of Ground Based Facilities in Russia may be quite good (Gromov and others)
I meant in context of Kaveri engine problems seen during testing in Germany. Here, it was Ground Based Testing, which detected the problem.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 31 Dec 2013 15:30

One mango doubt. Can we use kaveri now for a.c. or it needs more work. How long and how difficult work needed to be done?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 31 Dec 2013 16:07

Narayana Rao wrote:One mango doubt. Can we use kaveri now for a.c. or it needs more work. How long and how difficult work needed to be done?


You know a organisation called CEMILAC? Ask them. Kaveri has been worth bolting into PV back in 2005.

Anyway, Since IOC has been achieved, some might consider this feat now.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 06 Jan 2014 11:17

Fellow BRFites, today we can no longer compare GTRE to ISRO for non delivery of Cryogenic Engine, in light of yesterday's splendid performance.
Hope GTRE delivers too !

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 06 Jan 2014 15:00

^^^^
GSLV-D5 succeeded after a series of failure. That is the true lesson which one must take from the GSLV. Hope we do not give up on Kaveri and GTRE. Let us try, try, try till we succeed. If we still fail we repeat the process. But what we do not do is give up.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Niranjan » 08 Jan 2014 20:00

Tamilmani

Dec, 2013 Interview Dr K Tamilmani, DG Aeronautics, DRDO



Q: Is there a way forward for the Kaveri engine?

A: The Kaveri engine will be flight demonstrated in the next four to five years, after resolving all operational issues. This is the first Indian military jet engine, flight tested for 57 hours on the Flying Test Bed platform in Russia. The flight demonstration will consolidate in acquiring the military aero-engine complex technologies with spin-off applications in future military and civil engine programmes.



Q: I understand there’s renewed Indian Air Force interest in the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project. What about the engine?

A: The AMCA engine, the technical specification of which has been derived from the IAF’s operational requirements, will be developed in a joint approach with one of the world’s reputed engine houses. The engine configuration of size, weight, performance and operability will be decided by GTRE/DRDO. The engine will be developed by Indian agencies for the IAF, with prototype manufacturing and testing support from foreign agencies due to limited manufacturing and test facilities infrastructure in India.

(Read the full interview in the Jan-Feb 2014 issue of Defence and Technology)

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby govardhanks » 08 Jan 2014 21:49

Singha wrote:I think this wind tunnel thing is among the stuff india asked for as offsets of the numerous P8/C130/C17 deals the US got. it will be in chitradurga campus whose construction is now however under a stay order because a local "activist NGO" got it from the court . no doubt under blessings of the environ ministry or cheen-pasand interests. Khan itself would not mind all our domestic R&D projects go to hell and just sell us finished product with zero tot.

Regarding Chitradurga-
Sir, there are poor farmers there who believe the agricultural land is what everything they have... I agree the area might have less rainfall and low agri output, but those farmers did not have good compensation and awareness I guess. (They love there land.)
Few more links
http://www.karnataka.com/chitradurga/science-city/
http://zeenews.india.com/karnataka-elections-2013/karnataka-assembly-polls-2013-4-000-chitradurga-villagers-choose-to-abstain-from-voting_845135.html

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 09 Jan 2014 14:19

govardhanks wrote:
Singha wrote:I think this wind tunnel thing is among the stuff india asked for as offsets of the numerous P8/C130/C17 deals the US got. it will be in chitradurga campus whose construction is now however under a stay order because a local "activist NGO" got it from the court . no doubt under blessings of the environ ministry or cheen-pasand interests. Khan itself would not mind all our domestic R&D projects go to hell and just sell us finished product with zero tot.

Regarding Chitradurga-
Sir, there are poor farmers there who believe the agricultural land is what everything they have... I agree the area might have less rainfall and low agri output, but those farmers did not have good compensation and awareness I guess. (They love there land.)
Few more links
http://www.karnataka.com/chitradurga/science-city/
http://zeenews.india.com/karnataka-elections-2013/karnataka-assembly-polls-2013-4-000-chitradurga-villagers-choose-to-abstain-from-voting_845135.html


Agree. Its far more likely that GoI will promise the farmers the moon and then give very little compensation and hence they oppose it than activist NGOs.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Jan 2014 19:12

we boast socialistic principles higher than capitalistic ventures.. still we abuse welfare, rights etc. the fundamental issue is policies, standards and procedures. if there are no corruption in these, then it can save billions for us, in terms of fundamental aspects of living that we can't ignore.

but, we can't let go off what is important for our long-terms goals. it is a multi-prong struggle, where the solution is candid and everyone knows a bit here and there. it is only consolidation of issues, and solve them. it does not take time, if we stay focused on the job, be it basic rights or safety critical precision engineering feet.

in all aspects where our brains needs to work, the strategy is the same... and, there MUST be self-reliance and home grown engineering setup taking primary importance every where in technology, business, SOP and policies, etc.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 10 Jan 2014 09:43

The compenstion for land is normally less than 5% of the project and farmers should be given better price.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2014 10:48

I agree.. it is worth paying the farmer than suffering the indirect losses for not having paid them the right appropriate dues.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 10 Jan 2014 12:22

Low payment to farmers is not a political directive, it just stupid bureaucratic inertia and petty fogging. The requirement of 4 times the market price for rural areas will now bring land acquisition price "near to" real market price. I recently personally did a case, in which Supreme Court directed payment of market price and the bureaucracy calculated the market price at 5 lakhs for that land while the real market price was around Rs. 50 crores. The land owner offered to pay the Govt Rs 5 crores to release the land which was his own, which was refused. No wonder the case went back to Courts.

In Gurgaon farmers are paid Rs 80 lakhs per acre for super prime land, and the same land after Group housing license becomes worth Rs 30 crores per acre. Why should only builders, politicians, bureaucracy pocket the difference? Let the farmers also share some benefits for the land which his family is holding for tens of Generations. Give him say, 10% of benefit like say Rs. 3 crores or so per acre.

The problem in land acquisition unlike other agitations is simply about market value genuine compense. I have seen dozens of such cases and the only issue is "genuine compensation" which is fraction of the cost of the project.

In Greater Noida, I am led to believe that Judges personally know how much bribe Dalit Auntie was taking per acre, so they struck down the acquisition. If FAR is improved from 3 to 5 then again farmers can be given around Rs 2 crores per acre instead of Rs 40 lakhs now. The good thing would be that politicians, bureaucracy can even keep on taking their bribes without raping the farmers and end consumers alike.

The dispute in land acquisition is rape of farmer and end customer for benefit of politicians and bureaucracy. Therefore, we should learn to look at other side of the coin.
Last edited by vic on 10 Jan 2014 12:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Jan 2014 12:26

govardhanks wrote:
Singha wrote:I think this wind tunnel thing is among the stuff india asked for as offsets of the numerous P8/C130/C17 deals the US got. it will be in chitradurga campus whose construction is now however under a stay order because a local "activist NGO" got it from the court . no doubt under blessings of the environ ministry or cheen-pasand interests. Khan itself would not mind all our domestic R&D projects go to hell and just sell us finished product with zero tot.

Regarding Chitradurga-
Sir, there are poor farmers there who believe the agricultural land is what everything they have... I agree the area might have less rainfall and low agri output, but those farmers did not have good compensation and awareness I guess. (They love there land.)


Govardhan, whenever any project is planned & sanctioned, military, civil or private, the local administration does the assessment. Since this process cant be done subtly, local political parties get to know & vested interests start acquiring land, so that they can resell at a higher value. However, when land rates are pegged at original rates, then these vested interests start the weeping campaign. For example, at Singur West Bengal, CPM affiliated vested interests purchased or grabbed land from farmers, then resold to the Tatas at high rates. The political parties make sure government or private party pays a high rate for the land. The poor chaps whose land is grabbed start crying lack of compensation. Bacause the Tata Factory was visible, they pointed to it saying it took away their means of sustainance. The same goons later joined TMC.

At the end, its the poor & ignorant people and the Nation that are shafted.

It isnt a poor human rights situation as it is made out to be.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby govardhanks » 10 Jan 2014 14:40

Sir, one would very much love see DRDO Unmanned vehicles testing ground and IISc synchrotron facility there, but not at this compensation of 30k per acre.
Ref- http://www.tehelka.com/grassland-as-fodder-for-development/
http://www.esgindia.org/drdo/index.html
http://www.esgindia.org/education/community-outreach/press/ministry-environment-and-forests-says-ch.html
India does not have huge desert and semi-arid regions to enjoy non-human inhabitation, whole lot of country is on agriculture. A good awareness campaign and a above average compensation might be human way of dealing the things here.
The BARC and ISRO facilities pose danger to environment and people living nearby, although I have not come across such evidence based study in sriharikota, AP or other Nuclear facilities.

So, in total effect some facilities will be constructed and some will not be, based on Judicial and Environmental reports
And the time lost in process will go unnoticed.

I don't know but as a suggestion why don't govt. introduce Land based incentives like, the area surrounding such facilities and canteens and construction works can be owned by people around the same land.
I think this discussion can be taken somewhere else, MODs might already be counting on us.

vic wrote:Give him say, 10% of benefit like say Rs. 3 crores or so per acre.

No sir they are uneducated people there who can be easily misled, the present govt. is playing already enough by pass meaningless subsidy.

tsarkar wrote:At the end, its the poor & ignorant people and the Nation that are shafted.
It isnt a poor human rights situation as it is made out to be.

But at the same time project of national interest which protect the country should also be not stopped.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 10 Jan 2014 16:03

Pls specify what price TATA was paying for the land? I think it was Rs 1 per acre per annum!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JTull » 10 Jan 2014 17:54

ISRO's work on Cryo engine and GTRE's Kaveri cannot be compared.

The cryo tech chosen by ISRO for GSLV Mk2 is from 60's is still relevant today and can still deliver a satellite to orbit. The GSLV's payload objective has remained in the 2 tonne class for last 20 years. After testing a working engine it took them more than 10 years to have a successful launch.

LCA has not remained static. It has evolved a lot from late 80's. Everyone seems to expect GTRE to deliver a world beating engine with single crystal blades, and other such tech, for an aircraft that has today's weight or capability expectations, not what was envisaged in 80's. And, they didn't get 7 GE engines and some of the blue-prints to reverse engineer the rest of the design. Give it time (GoI has already provided them the budget). It will see service soon enough. LCA has moved on and nothing wrong with using an imported engine. GTRE can now focus on UAVs and other aircraft in the short term and future manned fighters later.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 10 Jan 2014 18:38

It seems that slowly we are reving up for engine R&D across the Board. I thought I will make a list:-

Ground Vehicles

1500-1800hp tank engine
500-600hp ground vehicle engine

Airborne platforms

10hp, 20hp, 40hp UAV piston engines
55hp wankel engine
110-120kw Jet starters for LCA Mark-1, 2, FGFA
xx kw APU for MRTA
4kn turbojet PTAE-7 by HAL
4kn turbofan by HAL, NAL, GTRE
1200kw turboshaft by HAL
25kn for IJT, AJT, Civil Liner (UAV?) etc by HAL
50/80kn Kaveri Gas turbine engine and Non afterburning version for UCAV
75/110kn new Gas turbine engine

Marine Engine

12000-16000hp based on Kaveri
1.2MW ship based Generator based on Kaveri
Battery pack and thermal engines for torpedoes
Battery packs for subs
Fuels Cells for subs
Nuclear Reactor 100MW for subs

Industrial

4MW based on Kaveri

Rumoured

Airborne platforms

150hp diesel UAV piston engines
250-500hp turboprop engine for UAV
Turboprop by HAL for Trainer
2000kw (Turboshaft? or) Industrial by HAL
Gas turbine Engines for UAV which can be 4kn or 25kn or 50kn

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 14 Jan 2014 14:09

Upping this thread with another poser ... 8)

It's been bemoaned multiple times in BRF that if only we could have got blisk manufacturng capability, most of our turbofan development issues would be resolved.

Well, let me state that the indigenous JSF unit of LCA are made of blisks - and that they are the equiaxed version of CM247 LC alloy (the same alloy, using which the DS casted HPT blades and vanes for Kaveri/Kabini were developed). Take that!! :twisted:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_20292 » 14 Jan 2014 14:24

^^^ theek hai.

tho ab bade bade whiskers banao na...?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 14 Jan 2014 19:06

Regarding Kaveri Development and GTRE, to compare with ISRO is unfair IMHO.
> Firstly, Kaveri programme was initiated before the GSLV, around early 1980s, while GSLV was mid/late 80s.
>There have been no Sanctions against supply of Aero Engines. COTS are available from Eastern Europe, Western Europe and Unkil.
> Blueprints for engines? Ok, take your pick:
Unkil: Allison Turboprop on Dornier made by HAL
Rolls Royce: Adour for Jaguar and Hawk, Orpheus for Ajeet and Marut, service and maintenance info for Canebbra and other aircraft.
Russia: Mig 21, Mig 23, Mig 27, Mig 29 and Su-30 engines were made here.

In fact, no Western Engine maker has had the handholding and Tech. Collabration to the Extent that HAL did. If GTRE was not able to make use of such an "embarrassment of riches" then we have sadly lost the plot.

> Seeing the problem another way, when ISRO makes Launch Vehicle Studies, some info and ppts get into public domain eventually. Have you seen anything from GTRE apart from Spec Sheet?
> Following a Launch failure, there is detailed analysis at ISRO and some findings are even made Public Domain (Turbo Feed Pump). Any such from GTRE?
> There is detailed public and media briefing about Launch and Test Facilities ISRO requires. In BRF, speculation is rife in absence of any info from GTRE.
> If ISRO were given Blueprints (Screwdriver Tech only) of Unkil and Euro CUS Engines, they would have got here quicker because they already have a well planned system for Development of CUS engines, and seeing and Testing a Good, Working Engine would have given them solutions otherwise not available to them. Getting there on their own, though delayed, is so much sweeter, we all agree.

> DRDO Labs and GTRE works in different way from ISRO, and Audit of DRDO (other Labs) point to sarkari PSU style complacency. Let them first meet Thrust Target of Kaveri (its a national Do-Or-Die Situation), then all will fall into place.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Jan 2014 19:20

maitya, thanks you did not mention 3D woven composites.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 14 Jan 2014 21:14

Also ISRO cryo will be better than Russian one

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_20292 » 14 Jan 2014 23:00

saik,

i have a teleportation engine at home. its even better than the 3d matrix composite blade-engines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 15 Jan 2014 11:37

maitya wrote:Well, let me state that the indigenous JSF unit of LCA are made of blisks - and that they are the equiaxed version of CM247 LC alloy (the same alloy, using which the DS casted HPT blades and vanes for Kaveri/Kabini were developed). Take that!! :twisted:


Was reported in one of the AI 2013 threads. They actually had one on display and its photo should be there somewhere on the main site.

The issues with the Kaveri are caused due to

1. Hot section parts still from Snecma, Indian versions are still being certified and then they are still DS, not SCB.
2. Some vibration/buzzing issues still persist, may have been resolved now.
3. Since this is the first attempt at a turbofan, many things are still sub-optimal in design and materials - this is the root cause of the weight problems and thus TWR issues.

My belief is that this cannot be solved without

1. A national program pulling in expertise from where it may exist in the country. Any company or individual must be far game.
2. Adequate funding. Lavish funding is too much to expect from India.
3. Focused effort to get the Kaveri to fly in one of the Tejas PVs. Practical experience and test data cannot be got otherwise. If there is not an extensive test campaign in a Tejas, they won't get confidence.

If you look at the proposed GTRE timelines, it appears that they are not serious and just trundling along.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 15 Jan 2014 17:56

vic wrote:Low payment to farmers is not a political directive, it just stupid bureaucratic inertia and petty fogging. The requirement of 4 times the market price for rural areas will now bring land acquisition price "near to" real market price. I recently personally did a case, in which Supreme Court directed payment of market price and the bureaucracy calculated the market price at 5 lakhs for that land while the real market price was around Rs. 50 crores. The land owner offered to pay the Govt Rs 5 crores to release the land which was his own, which was refused. No wonder the case went back to Courts.

In Gurgaon farmers are paid Rs 80 lakhs per acre for super prime land, and the same land after Group housing license becomes worth Rs 30 crores per acre. Why should only builders, politicians, bureaucracy pocket the difference? Let the farmers also share some benefits for the land which his family is holding for tens of Generations. Give him say, 10% of benefit like say Rs. 3 crores or so per acre.

The problem in land acquisition unlike other agitations is simply about market value genuine compense. I have seen dozens of such cases and the only issue is "genuine compensation" which is fraction of the cost of the project.

In Greater Noida, I am led to believe that Judges personally know how much bribe Dalit Auntie was taking per acre, so they struck down the acquisition. If FAR is improved from 3 to 5 then again farmers can be given around Rs 2 crores per acre instead of Rs 40 lakhs now. The good thing would be that politicians, bureaucracy can even keep on taking their bribes without raping the farmers and end consumers alike.

The dispute in land acquisition is rape of farmer and end customer for benefit of politicians and bureaucracy. Therefore, we should learn to look at other side of the coin.


It is not that simple. When land is bought it has nothing, no infrastructure to support a building, residential or commercial or institutional or industrial. Water lines, Sewage pipes, Storm Water drains, Electricity wires, telecommunication cables have to be laid. Further roads have to be paved and laid. All of this takes money. If we increase the land acquisition costs then what happens is that consequently the end price of the house, building, shops, etc goes up.

Moreover in many cities like Gurgaon, if a builder is building say 100 Flats he has to build a similar percentage of flats for EWS families. Also most of the people in Gurgaon who give their land get flats and penthouses in the flats being constructed. This gives them an incentive to get the building completed and enjoy their benefits. So increasing the land prices is one thing. It looks noble. But it is not the solution. What is needed is that people who have their lands taken away ought to be trained or upskilled. These people have to be given a revenue stream which is part of the structure coming on their land.

Giving high prices for the land may lead to wastage. People getting 10-50 cores will automatically go and buy 2-3 scorpios or go on a spending binge. After a few years the money is gone and people are without money, without means to earn money and without a piece of land. And then they start to look at the houses or building on their erstwhile land and get envious. You will find a lot of people complaining that they got nothing, once the initial money given to them has been spent. Some of them turn to crime and some to Maoist or other dangerous organizations.

Giving a high price for the land does not give people a stake in the progress. Rather it is a way to avoid hard and painfull choices. A means of getting out of their obligations without taking the difficult path.

Christopher Sidor
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 15 Jan 2014 17:57

^^^^
Sorry for the OT. I will post it in the Indian Economic forum.

vic
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 15 Jan 2014 22:04

The proposal for developing UCAV variant from Kaveri engine is budgeted at Rs. 500 crore out of which couple of hundred crores will go to foreign labs. It would be impossible to build an engine at that cost. I remember posting in 1998 on BRF that Kaveri budget is too low and will not lead to usable engine, and now Deja vu

venkat_r
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby venkat_r » 15 Jan 2014 22:56

Multiple pronged strategy is need for engine issues. As someone already mentioned we need an integrated program like the one we had for missiles when project Devil failed.

This project needs a national project status/ needs high level visibility and funding. I would go a step further and say that we need to have more than one PSU developing the engines. Engines have to be divided in couple of categories and high risk and high tech have to go to GTRE and medium risk and tech have to go another unit. Low risk and low tech have to be developed along with the private industry participation. Invite private partners to come and develop new engines, even if they have screw-driver tech to begin with. There is a whole eco-system that needs to be built in this area.

Lot more has to be invested in people leadership within the GTRE and other engine units. For example there are several names that we know from ISRO and there has been a culture that has been nurtured in ISRO and if you see an interview of not the head of ISRO, but even lower rung leaders, you know they are on the ball and sooner or latter we are going to get it. For the importance of the engines, not enough visibility into the project and not enough intermediate stages for calibration. If such a system is created with clear goals , then in the next 20 years we will have a robust industry .

vic
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 16 Jan 2014 15:50

It is astonishing that BHEL and L&T which have reasonable turbine knowledge from power side has not been involved in our Aero gas turbine projects. (Side Note:- BHEL is beneficiary of Rs 2500 croer contract to manufacture errrr assemble Naval Guns)


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