Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Mar 2014 03:50


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby gnair » 01 Mar 2014 04:14

The article mentions 'billion' dollars in a couple of places, that may not be accurate. It should be million instead.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 01 Mar 2014 15:02

NRao wrote:A long article:

An 'engine' for India's growth
...
...
Given the specifications of the AMCA a much higher thrust engine than the designed output of the Kaveri will be required for the AMCA even though it is envisioned as a twin engine aircraft. Accordingly, tender documents show that GTRE's next turbofan is in the 110 KN wet and 75 KN dry thrust category. An engine of this capability will certainly require GTRE to master single crystal blade(SCB) technology, integrated rotor disk and blades and super alloys of nickel and cobalt. The Kaveri currently uses directionally solidified blade technology and neither that nor even first generation SCBs which can now be fashioned in India will suffice for the new engine.
...
...

Good article and quite a few data points - covers quite a bit of ground from a lay-man turbofan technology etc also. Also confirmation of 75KN dry thrust Kaveri-II is in the works.

However, some important points need further detailing (as it's too high-level):

1) Wrt SCB - yes, 3rd gen SCB (where Ru gets introduced and Re % gets capped at around 5-6%) is the need of the hour, no doubt. But that's not what will automatically get the required high TeT numbers (of say 1650-1700deg C), that one would expect from an contemporary military turbofan.

Pls note Thrust can be up-scaled (to a certain degree) by increasing mass flow.
Problem with that kind of a solution is that the Thermal efficiency (and Propulsive efficiency as well) will go for a toss. And to maintain balance between an increased Thrust and the thermal (and propulsive) efficiencies, both TeT and OPR needs enhancement to a large degree.

And that's exactly where-in lies the catch.

A 3rd Gen SCB, on it's own will give a max 70-90deg C upscaling of TeT (pls note 2nd Gen ones gives around 30-40deg C max upscaling). From a DS-based Kabini/Kaveri TeT of ~1455deg C that takes one to not even to 1550deg C TeT, well short of 1650-1700 deg C that one would desire from an contemporary turbofan.
And it needs to be further noted here that those fantastic figures like 30-40% increase in Creep-rupture strength etc were for polycrystalline to directional strengthening graduations - for DS to SC graduations, the improvements were far more modest (max 10% or so) and sometimes can even be none between generations as well - as the following schematic shows:
Image

And the answer to that catch is BOTH,
a) Multipath (serpentine) Impingement Cooling air-passage
AND
b) Thermal Barrier Coating

The contemporary turbine TeT improvement is less thru the material technology (including casting techniques like Single Crytal or DS etc) front and more thru the complicated multipath impingement cooling fabrication tech and TBC. That's the frontier of turbojet/turbofan technical research and dev (and not so much on SCBs etc) where an experienced partner is an absolute must.

As just by mastering SCB (from Shivji's AI13 pics and few other such open-source revealing, it seems we are almost there), we will not be able to reach that level of TeT etc. So even if we meet the thrust levels via sledge-hammer techniques like mass-flow increase etc, it will not be efficient enough (read high-SFC "fuel guzzling" and heavier etc).

Oh betw, this above points doesn't take away anything from the need of mastering 2nd-3rd gen SCB etc - as making the turbine blades hollow to allow these multi-path incipient cooling passages etc will require thin-walled blade-material technology while retaining the higher-order of creep-rupture-resistance and Thermal-Mechanical fatigue strengths. And that's exactly where SCB gens become vital (as SC processing normally ensures that the thin section properties are optimised i.e. as section thickness is reduced a standard superalloy ruptures in less time than a simple bar - and that PC > DS > SC is the order of thin section property reduction).

So long-story short (will bring these points in some more detail in the Kaveri saga thread), if we can master the required raw-material-forming and casting technology for 3rd Gen SCBs etc well and good - but if we can't, we can still make do with DS ones (and achieve maybe somewhat conservative but still acceptable performance parameters) PROVIDED we have considerably progressed on the blade-cooling and the TBC technology.


2) Wrt Compressor Blisk technology - the temperature regime we have already aimed for in the current Kaveri precludes Ti usage in the last couple of stages of the HPC and we are firmly in the Polycrystalline Superalloy regime there-in. Manufacturing blades and disks with such complex metallurgical superalloys is a huge challenge - which other contemporary turbofan makers overcomes by the using alternate machining paths like Linear Frictional Welding (LFW) etc.

The theory ofcourse is to manufacture the complex-aerofoil-shaped blades and the disks separately (with disks having "slots" to fit-in the blade-roots) and join them by LFW. Problem is standard welding or other joining methods will mean considerable weakness in those joints constraining the rotational/mechanical stress it can withstand. Not so with LFW, where it’s possible (not uncommon actually) to have the joint strength more than that of the blade and disk themselves.

Now we need to beg-borrow this technology (for superalloys and not for some Ti/Steel LFW etc) to achieve relevant blisks (and the associated SPRs without compromising on the weight front) - until then need to live with standard programming of the heavier bolted-blades-on-disk compressor stages.

But again if we have mastered/understood the rotor-dynamics of the HPC, overcome the myriad inter-stage resonant-vibration impacts etc, controlled the interstage shock-waves in a 1.6M or so tip-speed compressor stages etc etc etc, absence of blisks can be lived with. Yes it will not be super-duper 30 OPR achieving stuff, but maybe a SDRE 27 OPR regime, enough to achieve those thrust figures etc.


3) There are other seemingly small things like Compressor blade surface finish – now in the complex Rotor-CFD world, laminar flow drag (a major source of skin-friction drag losses) is directly proportional to blade surface smoothness. Nowadays in contemporary turbofans, 6-8micron surface smoothness in the HPC stages have been achieved while rest of the world struggles around 30-40micron smoothness of these stages. Another very jealously and closely guarded technology who nobody will ever part with.

And so many such things …


Point is beyond F404 tech, thrust and efficiency improvements in military turbofans are sum-total of such incremental technological (and sometimes even pure engineering and manufacturing) improvements in almost all aspects of CFD, Mechanical, Thermal and Material tech.
And with Kaveri-I we are trying to baseline all these aspects at F404 level. Once that’s done, these other improvements (say in Kaveri-II) will need taking up, some concurrently and a few others, sequentially – a long and hard road ahead, just that we shouldn’t stop trudging along.

So let's keep trucking ...

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby PratikDas » 02 Mar 2014 10:30

Maitya Ji, thank you for the trouble you take to pen these layman friendly digests. Quite fascinating material.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 23 Mar 2014 13:50

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=20891
imho, they should include GTRE as prime member. it is not bliss ignoring GTRE. or are they thinking of foldin up!?!?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 23 Mar 2014 16:38

Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar tells me on FB that current version of Kaveri does not produce enough thrust for LCA to take off.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Mar 2014 16:56

Wasnt this the same Air commondore who claims Gripen engine can be changed in 33 minutes

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 23 Mar 2014 17:14

Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar tells me on FB that current version of Kaveri does not produce enough thrust for LCA to take off.


What exact purpose does that statement serve?

Is the good Air Commodore aware that the two were decoupled some time back? And, such statements pour more fuel over a topic that leads nowhere?

India NEEDS an Indian engine. That is all there is to it. IF anyone can help please come forward, IF you cannot or do not want to please step backwards (and disappear).

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 23 Mar 2014 17:49

Oh, please don't fume. Were discussing if current LCA can be used on any of the prototypes for testing. He said (as we already know) a new version is in make.

Parvez Khokhar: Incidentally, the Kaveri engine was never pronounced airworthy, after it completed it's tests on a test bed in Russia. It was not the same size as as the GE-404 engine and major modifications to the airframe would have had to be made, with their inherent challenges, had it been fitted on the Tejas Mk I. The dry and wet thrust produced was approx 78% of the required thrust. It also far exceeded the weight of the 404 and also had a higher Specific Fuel Consumption (SFC), impinging on the range and endurance of the aircraft. As a quick update, the first aircraft to be inducted into the IAF in March 2014, after the IOC, is way behind schedule and is likely to fly only in the last quarter of 2014.

Joseph P. Chacko : its no "airworthy" or not airworthy to be fit in LCA?

Parvez Khokhar : The LCA cannot get airborne with this engine, even if all other modifications were done........

Joseph P. Chacko : They have given any reason, why?
March 20 at 8:32am · Like

Parvez Khokhar : There is much detail published..but simply put, if does not produce adequate power to get airborne, how can you fly with it?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 23 Mar 2014 18:12

page thru and point your likings here
http://search.dilbert.com/search?p=Q&sr ... omic&srt=6

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 23 Mar 2014 22:11

Chacko sahab,

That is is plain and simple wrong. If the reliability is not a problem, LCA would be a slow duck with the (current) Kaveri. It would need a longer takeoff run (like the Jaguar), but it would most certainly take off. I don't think there is any question about that.

How do civil airplanes take off with their power to weight ratio?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Mar 2014 22:23

I think what he means is Kaveri is not yet Flight Qualified to be integrated into LCA .... they need to get kaveri flying right and get the engine certified before they can think about mating with Tejas Airframe irrespective of changes needed in airframe for the engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 24 Mar 2014 07:08

indranilroy,

I am only relaying a conversation, I do not subscribe to it. However, we should listen to all quarters.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 24 Mar 2014 08:48

Surely. But in this case the observation is plain wrong. There is no grey area.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 24 Mar 2014 08:59

Do you have information if it was certified flight worthy after Russia tests? AFIK Dr. Tamilmani hasn't said so.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_28502 » 24 Mar 2014 09:01

since this is thread for Maha gurus and ati gurus
I tread with with great trepediation and ask few
kweschens ji sarkar

eej it poshible to solve Laplace istranshforms with out he knewledge of trigonometry or differential calculations?

if it ij not then

how can we make a jet engine with out even knowing how to make a rotary engine for our basic trainers?

let the private sector make small private parts for big engines to start with.

look at the history of the leading companies of the world
Prat and Whitney started with measuring gauges and precision tools rotary engines and then jet engines
Roll Royce the same way
first lets make a engine and aircraft like this

Image
use it as UAV Rustam-e-hind ( rustam from behind)

as told to me by Chai Ram part time chai supplier For HAL

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 24 Mar 2014 09:12

Nijalingappa,

we have some experience based on Orpheus 703 engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_28502 » 24 Mar 2014 09:22

Any knowledge in public sector is lot in translation from Russian designs or British designs...

I am talking about private sector.

MTAR started as a recondition out fit in Balanagar, The founders worked for me (reddy brothers of HMT SPM division taking pay from HMT and working in my shop and their shop after punching in at SPM division)
Godrej started with welding of steel structures then into ISRO jobs and DRDO jobs
L&T started with electrodes Eutectic Division now can weld submarines and you name it

Pvt sector has to sart private (small) parts and then allow them with tax incentives and firm orders no hanky pancky Director general of Military Scams
which abound and look at BEML scandal

here is how we cheat or leech public money in Defense procurement

notice anything sad here?

Image

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 24 Mar 2014 09:35

You can explain "private parts for Big engines."

Private sector does contributes to kaveri engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby member_28482 » 25 Mar 2014 16:47

When could we expect certification for Kaveri Engine

Is there any test going on P9 or P10.


Next year, the GTRE plans to show the engine’s performance first on an Il-76 plane and then as the second engine fitted on a twin-engined fighter like MiG-29. It would be tuned to certification standardshttp://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/new-tailwinds-for-kaveri-engine/article5190724.ece

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Mar 2014 19:12

The old schedule remains till someone say's it is changed. There is no indication that it will not go Russia for further trials.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby putnanja » 08 Apr 2014 23:33

Cross-post from R&D thread.

Chat with Shri Tamilmani of CEMILAC on Tarmak FB page. Excerpts related to Kaveri:

We are not planning any new platform. Our focus is on resolving tech challenges on kavevri engine and prove it to be a successful Indian engine.
The solution for the few problems in kaveri are totally indian. However at times we seek an independent audit prior to testing on engine
Kaveri is in the testing phases for endurance and reliability with multiple prototypes for certification process. We hope to succeed in 2 years after completing the airworthiness tests.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 02 May 2014 14:58

Tenders for the rotors and casings of the 25 Ton kN Hindustan Turbofan Engine (HTFE-25) are out. Looks like will have a 4-stage HPC.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 02 May 2014 16:58

Pardon my ignorance, where would such an engine be used?

Also, would it reflect on the Kaveri at all?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 02 May 2014 17:06

Indranil, Can you analyse, what sort of engine is HTFE-25? Something equivalent to AL-55 or Adour or Garrett etc?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 May 2014 18:44

can someone pl extract those zips into significant details as text here? having troubles downloading. tia

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 02 May 2014 20:07

Not much is known about the engine. I could start guessing about it from about 2 years back. HAL acknowledged it about 1 year back. Initially it will be developed for military trainers (read IJT, Hawks) when they come in for re-engining, UAVs (back-up for Ghatak?). There was news that they are developing variants for the military transports (turbofan version of Saras?) and civil versions for business jets. The prototype for the low-bypass engine was to fly in 2016. But we have to wait and see when the high bypass engine comes out.

Vic, it is somewhere between the Adour and Garrett. Looks more similar to the Garett in dimensions. Maitya sir can elaborate more (though there is not much to go on now).

My perception is that Kaveri will gain next to none from this project, other than the setup of indigenous industries to fabricate some parts.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 02 May 2014 21:53

25 Ton Hindustan Turbofan Engine (HTFE-25)

Something wrong here. This is something like 250 KN. More commercial jet aircraft like RB211 engine. Dont tell me that HAL is planning to go against CFM, PW & RR to supply engines for B747 kind of planes!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 02 May 2014 22:42

I think HAL should go in for an engine which can be drop in replacement of Adour engine, something like F125.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 03 May 2014 08:38

vina wrote:
25 Ton Hindustan Turbofan Engine (HTFE-25)

Something wrong here. This is something like 250 KN. More commercial jet aircraft like RB211 engine. Dont tell me that HAL is planning to go against CFM, PW & RR to supply engines for B747 kind of planes!

Thank you for pointing it out. No, it is not a 250 kN engine. It will produce 25 kN.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 03 May 2014 09:45

There were some googled reports I came across which mentioned HTFE as 20-30kn engine. Budget for it's development was stated to be only Rs. 400 crores. I wonder what happened to ToT we got for paying Rs. 3500 crores for AL-55 engine R&D which is also 17-25 kn engine but is late, overweight, poor SFC, poor MTBF and the deal provides for NIL manufacturing.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 04 May 2014 21:01

http://www.convertunits.com/from/kilo+n ... o/kiloton+[long,+UK]
250kN->25ton is right not?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Austin » 04 May 2014 21:43

It must be 25 kN , 25T is a huge engine that powers wide body aircraft.

As a reference the PS-90A-76 Engine we use on newer IL-76 AWACS each has thrust of 14.5 T

Right now we need to build atleast one good engine for any type of fighter that can see wide service in IAF , Kaveri was the closest we got to building one but considering it has yet to be flight certified and much less would never see any wide service in IAF Tejas Fleet we have to wait for another decade to get our first indigenous engine which can see wide spread usage

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2014 00:23

are we talking weight or thrust or a ratio we need?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Yugandhar » 10 May 2014 09:25

IMO This is a move in the right direction to find synergies internally

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/joint-venture-planned-for-manufacturing-gas-turbines/article5995146.ece

Public sector behemoths Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. (BHEL), along with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), are exploring a joint venture to design, develop, and manufacture gas turbines for many critical uses in the country.

Teams from these agencies are working on the details of such a venture, which can create a large, vital Indian capability for gas turbines.

They are also crafting a technology road map in this area, assessing infrastructure and expertise available in the country as well as identifying a suitable technology to acquire or develop for the country, persons close to the development told The Hindu .

Gas turbines are used across civil and military sectors, such as in large passenger aircraft, fighter aircraft and ships, besides industrial and power sectors.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 10 May 2014 10:20

DRDO for research and HAL for critical parts. Hopefully, BHEL will be able to compete with global giants. Indian Railways is another potential customer with positive attitude for the type.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vic » 10 May 2014 11:34

Yugandhar wrote:IMO This is a move in the right direction to find synergies internally

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/joint-venture-planned-for-manufacturing-gas-turbines/article5995146.ece

Public sector behemoths Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. (BHEL), along with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), are exploring a joint venture to design, develop, and manufacture gas turbines for many critical uses in the country.

Teams from these agencies are working on the details of such a venture, which can create a large, vital Indian capability for gas turbines.

They are also crafting a technology road map in this area, assessing infrastructure and expertise available in the country as well as identifying a suitable technology to acquire or develop for the country, persons close to the development told The Hindu .

Gas turbines are used across civil and military sectors, such as in large passenger aircraft, fighter aircraft and ships, besides industrial and power sectors.


I have been suggesting tie up of Bhel, Hal and Gtre for developing turbine engines for ten years on brf.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Jun 2014 22:18

The HTFE-25 engine from HAL is coming along nicely. Lots of tenders have been floated out for the manufacturing of many HPC parts: rotors, blades, shaft, casing, gears etc.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 13 Jun 2014 10:17

indranilroy wrote:The HTFE-25 engine from HAL is coming along nicely. Lots of tenders have been floated out for the manufacturing of many HPC parts: rotors, blades, shaft, casing, gears etc.


Strange. HAL should be able to do those, isn't it? Those are not hot section parts.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Jun 2014 10:44

This is the hot section. My guess, is this is just for the prototypes. Building parts for just 2 engines would not be financially feasible.


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