Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[SaiK]

also they promised to complete this in 18 months flat! and putting one thruster (not sure, if it is 82kN or 90kN waali[perhaps phase 2]) into LCA by 2020 - perfect vision there. as usual, I am skeptical, but GTRE is all about missing something so important, and then realizing a firang expert saying you did.. but you didn't realize it that it required blade design is not perfect enough [too much bypass] or some water jet holes are missing or some coating is all that matters for it not melt away at TET.

[UlanBatori]

On the Damocles thread (go there and get sword falling on head) there is mention of DRDO Centers for aero propulsion set up at Eye Eye Tees. My evil 6th coujin happens to know one of the Principal Investigators/Center Directors - Pharmer Yak etc. I must say they have found person of the right mind set and work ethic and brilliance. What he can do remains to be seen, but they are building buildings if nothing else. If they focus to the Nth degree like NASA on The Most Important Scientific Praablem, and go present a paper at Combustion Symposium, that at the end of the day doesn't get EllSeeYay any closer to having a good engine. I think what India needs is massive, well-monitored experience, a 1000 engines blazing away to destruction, with performance measured every second and analyzed.

[Indranil]

Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta

[Cybaru]

Wasn't there a 1450 as well?

[Indranil]

KW or HP?

[Neela]

‏@livefist

Very interesting. Indian private firm Poeir Jets at #AeroIndia2017, says its the first Indian company to design & build small jet engines.

[JayS]

‏@livefist

Very interesting. Indian private firm Poeir Jets at #AeroIndia2017, says its the first Indian company to design & build small jet engines.

There was a news article about them in some paper last week. Right now they are working on 20kgf thrust engine, which is tiny one. But they are planning to go up to 350kgf, which could be used for UAVs. Looks like a rich guy (owner of some company can't remember which one) is bootstrapping the team with 20Cr fund.

[Thakur_B]

‏@livefist

Very interesting. Indian private firm Poeir Jets at #AeroIndia2017, says its the first Indian company to design & build small jet engines.

One of these mated with Garuthma kit with added section for fuel should give us nice cheap miniature cruise missiles.

[Neela]

Manohar Parrikar confirms French help for revival of Indian Kaveri engine

As reported by ET, leading manufacturer Safran has finalised a $2 million consultancy agreement to revive the project for combat planes and unmanned aircraft. French experts have studied Kaveri gas turbine project -- which was stalled in 2014 -- and have draw a joint development plan

The Kaveri engine project was more of less abandoned for aviation use in 2014 due to power shortcomings. While the consultancy agreement will lead to a detailed plan, initial assessments by French experts has brought out that 25-30 per cent more work is needed for it to get combat worthy.

[Nick_S]

Livefist ‏@livefist 6h6 hours ago
Model of the DRDO/GTRE mini jet engine for UAV applications. Being developed for next gen in-development UAS.

[NRao]

There was a news article about them in some paper last week. Right now they are working on 20kgf thrust engine, which is tiny one. But they are planning to go up to 350kgf, which could be used for UAVs. Looks like a rich guy (owner of some company can't remember which one) is bootstrapping the team with 20Cr fund.

That is the ONLY way to go about it. Taking on risk and managing it. There will be plenty of failures, especially when it comes to "engines", but one must walk through that fire.

Excellent development.


If he has not done so already, he should fund some kids at a couple Universities too. MatSci.

[shiv]

Chap and Kaveri stall very positive about the future.. Made me happy.

[Cybaru]

Shiv please do share detailed reports like Kartik did for earlier aeroindia.

[JTull]

Any word on engine for Nirbhay?

[ShauryaT]

Chap and Kaveri stall very positive about the future.. Made me happy.

What is the Safran consultancy all about, someone please find out the details.

[Cain Marko]

Livefist ‏@livefist 6h6 hours ago
Model of the DRDO/GTRE mini jet engine for UAV applications. Being developed for next gen in-development UAS.

Bah humbug...looks like my old doodhwalas milk can..

[JayS]

This is same as LaghuShakti isn't it??

[sivab]

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/832063675338874881

Yusuf Unjhawala ‏@YusufDFI 39m39 minutes ago
Interesting comment by a young engineer from GTRE-foreign cos lining to help on Kaveri as they know we r close to achieving requisite thrust

Yusuf Unjhawala ‏@YusufDFI 38m38 minutes ago
He also said that we have managed to make single crystal blade. Won't go on Kaveri but for future engine for AMCA

shiv, you heard same?

[jamwal]

India is making its First-Ever Jet Engine and it will be Launched in 24 Weeks
http://www.killerfeatures.com/india-is-making-its-first-ever-jet-engine-and-it-will-be-launched-in-24-weeks

This project is the brainchild of Poeir Jets Private Limited, a Bengaluru-based aviation firm that has set aside Rs 20 crores for its development, of which 9 crores have already been spent on the Research and Development of India’s first jet engine.

With experience from tie-ups with firms such as HAL and Bharat Forge, the company decided to make its own gas turbine engine two years ago.
The company started testing on February 8, 2017, and the first few boosts have been proven successful in what will be a tough 6 months to go until final launch.

MJE-20 will be a gas-turbine engine that can power Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) or Remotely Piloted Vehicles (RPVs). It weighs a mere 2.16 kg and provides an uninstalled thrust of 20 kg.

[Austin]

From DRDO Chief Interview to FORCE Mag on Kaveri program

DRDO has not directly taken any offsets so far. Presently, Rafale has an offset clause, and DRDO has been asked to fill it up. We are specifically talking of the Kaveri engine’s last mile problem. We are running the five Kaveri engines that we have. These were even flown as a part of the experimental test-bed in Russia. We know they are good engines. The problem with the engine is that when used for higher power, it makes a noise. We don’t know the effect it can have on the performance. To resolve this issue, DRDO is planning to rope in Snecma (as part of the Rafale offset). The project has already entered the first phase. Snecma will study the engine and work on its modifications, certify and fit it on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. We should be able to fly one of the LCA’s with Kaveri engine at least after two years.

Dassault Aviation is keen to work on the next generation LCA, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) or the Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle, Ghatak as part of the offsets in Rafale programme. They are willing to work on the configuration design and the entire logistic maintenance software for new system. We want the company to do something for us here in India to harness our potentials.

They have had two rounds of meetings so far with Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and GTRE. Hopefully, things will move forward.

[JayS]

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/832063675338874881

Yusuf Unjhawala ‏@YusufDFI 39m39 minutes ago
Interesting comment by a young engineer from GTRE-foreign cos lining to help on Kaveri as they know we r close to achieving requisite thrust

Yusuf Unjhawala ‏@YusufDFI 38m38 minutes ago
He also said that we have managed to make single crystal blade. Won't go on Kaveri but for future engine for AMCA

shiv, you heard same?

I am told 54kN/81kN thrust is achieved. I specifically asked for wet thrust against since we know there was shortfall there. But GTRE folks were insisting that they have achieved 81kN now. Both the compressor flutter and screech issues are resolved now, if you believe them.

SCB is GTRE+DMRL project. SCB with 2nd Gen alloys process is matured tech now, Industrialization of the process is remaining. Apart from making raw blades two more key things lacking are final machining of the SCB's and TBC. MIDHANI is working on this. And they are confident they can do it in 2-3yrs. Right now the blades are to be sent abroad for one or both of these two processes anyway, which is not desirable.

If you notice, Kaveri is running with max 1700K TET value. Currently its not using any SCBs, only DS blades, as per GTRE folks. There is a gap of ~200K here from the state-of-the-art.

[vina]

I am told 54kN/81kN thrust is achieved. I specifically asked for wet thrust against since we know there was shortfall there. But GTRE folks were insisting that they have achieved 81kN now. Both the compressor flutter and screech issues are resolved now, if you believe them.

Hmm. That is very good news indeed. So the problems discovered during the flight test was flutter and screech huh ? Trouble is , it is precisely these kind of things for which there are no "analytical" or "CFD / Simulation" stuff possible and there is no alternative to roll up sleeves, actually build , test, fix, retest loop and for that we absolutely need hight altitude test beds. Now altitude test beds date back to pre WWII and the Brits had it, the Germans of course had it and so did the Americans. There is simply no way any country can design and build a jet engine or indeed any aero engine without such test beds! It is amazing that we expected these folks to develop engines without ANY testing infra that is absolutely necessary (the flying tests come last , but you need the altitude test beds to debug and do spiral development to even get to that stage).

The Yak Herder is of course right. These things can be done only by actual hardware testing and experimental research . In the lack of investment in testing infra, it is indeed a wonder that the GTRE has actually managed to get this far. They better kick the baboons in the nuts and have their travel budgets approved in triplicate and laminate and pack the MTR ready to eat stuff and get frequent flyer miles for test facilities in Russian, Germany or whosoever's facilities they use.

SCB is GTRE+DMRL project. SCB with 2nd Gen alloys process is matured tech now, Industrialization of the process is remaining. Apart from making raw blades two more key things lacking are final machining of the SCB's and TBC. MIDHANI is working on this. And they are confident they can do it in 2-3yrs. Right now the blades are to be sent abroad for one or both of these two processes anyway, which is not desirable.

If you notice, Kaveri is running with max 1700K TET value. Currently its not using any SCBs, only DS blades, as per GTRE folks. There is a gap of ~200K here from the state-of-the-art.

There is huge room for growth with the current Kaveri if high temp materials become available. A higher bypass ratio (it is something like 0.16 or something, something close to 0.35 to 0.45 thereabouts, will be "civilised/respectable" like the rest) , along with (the resulting higher TET) will see both efficiency and thrust increase, and take this to close to 64 KN dry /100KN wet engine. For e.g., the plain vanilla M53, in the Mirage 2000, saw a one ton thrust increase when the materials developed for Rafale were back ported into it and hence the new M53 P2 (for the M2005 and M2009) . That said the snecma brochure says M53 P2 has a TET of 1600K. So if they have got to 1700K , it is not bad at all.

[JayS]

Hmm. That is very good news indeed. So the problems discovered during the flight test was flutter and screech huh ? Trouble is , it is precisely these kind of things for which there are no "analytical" or "CFD / Simulation" stuff possible and there is no alternative to roll up sleeves, actually build , test, fix, retest loop and for that we absolutely need hight altitude test beds. Now altitude test beds date back to pre WWII and the Brits had it, the Germans of course had it and so did the Americans. There is simply no way any country can design and build a jet engine or indeed any aero such test beds! It is amazing that we expected these folks to develop engines without ANY testing infra that is absolutely necessary (the flying tests come last , but you need the altitude test beds to debug and do spiral development to even get to that stage).

The Yak Herder is of course right. These things can be done only by actual hardware testing and experimental research . In the lack of investment in testing infra, it is indeed a wonder that the GTRE has actually managed to get this far. They better kick the baboons in the nuts and have their travel budgets approved in triplicate and laminate and pack the MTR ready to eat stuff and get frequent flyer miles for test facilities in Russian, Germany or whosoever's facilities they use.

Its know from public sources those two problems where uncovered. Interestingly a guy from GTRE manning the stall told me they are paying Russians just so they wouldn't share the mods GTRE did to remove those issues. Now how much one wants to buy into this is up to oneself.

Snecma claims 1850K TET for M88. So just by porting that HPT tech they can boost TET by 150K..!!

But my guess is they will not do much technical changes in the engine itself, if what GTRE says is true. The said 25% remaining work to make it flightworthy is majority flight testing only without much HW changes. Even if we get flight testing know-how and facilities set up with Snecma's help that itself would be significant for us. We already know Kabini core is working well. It was only the issue with LP system and AB. If those two things are solved then there's nothing really remained in Kaveri to do. Just fly it and certify. Other changes can be done in next iteration.

Also, Kaveri Marine project is not going anywhere since Navy changed the requirements. Now they want next gen specs, I am told.

BTW its not that there are no CFD methods available. There are. But they take you half way. A good fine tuned OEM methodology could even take you to almost there. But yes, for the rest of the part you need testing. To improve and fine tune your design methodologies and be where today GE is, you need extensive testing infrastructure. We sadly have very limited facilities across the board. Plus GTRE does not have proper 3D aerodynamics capability. I suspect their CFD capability as a whole is limited (compared to other engine OEMs).

[NRao]

Also, Kaveri Marine project is not going anywhere since Navy changed the requirements. Now they want next gen specs, I am told.

Cannot expect client to hold on to old specs. They are, to a very extent, moving goal posts. R&D need to anticipate and accommodate them.

[JTull]

... told me they are paying Russians just so they wouldn't share the mods GTRE did to remove those issues.

I didn't understand this sentence. Too many determiners/pronouns. Can you pls state it in simple(r) english? thx.

[NRao]

... told me they are paying Russians just so they wouldn't share the mods GTRE did to remove those issues.

I didn't understand this sentence. Too many determiners/pronouns. Can you pls state it in simple(r) english? thx.

"mods" = modifications.




They could perhaps build a decent test facilities for that price?

[JayS]

... told me they are paying Russians just so they wouldn't share the mods GTRE did to remove those issues.

I didn't understand this sentence. Too many determiners/pronouns. Can you pls state it in simple(r) english? thx.

I had asked him why don't they just buy that Il-76 test bed. The GTRE guy said they wanted to but Russians wouldn't sell. And he went on saying that they are basically paying Russians to stop them from sharing the modifications done to resolve issues with Kaveri. We paid the Russians 140Cr or such amount for sum total of 70 odd hours of testing including 57-hrs of flight testing. If we run the entire flight test program with Russians, we would end up paying much more than what those facilities themselves cost. Its their Golden Egg laying Chicken. And we know that Chinese also come with their engine for testing in those same facilities. May be GTRE folks are worried Russians will sell them our stuff.

Take this FWIW. Its not possible to verify such information. But its very much plausible.

Interestingly that person also claimed that MiG-29 test bed for Kaveri isn't happening because Russians are not allowing to use MiG29 for that.

Similarly the DMRL person claimed that the reason they are not making SCB for Kaveri using ToT from Al-31FP is because the contract does not allow the technology to be used elsewhere.

[Cybaru]

How about a used A340 that is modded for all of future? Or a new/used build A319/A320 with an engine pod hanging off the mid body/wing.

[NRao]

I assume they would prefer a 4 engined cargo plane.

Heck get 2/3 old C-17. Should have decent support already. Pay a wee bit more for this one-off deal.


There should be a few extra -29s somewhere in Europe, floating arond.

[vina]

I had asked him why don't they just buy that Il-76 test bed.

I am talking more about the altitude test facility like this UK NGTE Pyestock or the facility at NASA Glenn. or at Anecom & DLR and of course Gromov in Russia , also check out Arnold Airforce Base facilities

The IL-76 / 747 flying test beds etc are the final stage. But to get there, you need to do testing in the altitude test facilities , debug, fix, debug loop , run the stipulated number of hours in it, etc before putting on a plane.

These facilities aren't cheap , both to set up and run of course. Per this Article HAL was supposed to set up a altitude test facility @ Koraput for Rs 1500 crores. I doubt it came about. That is a heck of a lot of money.

Similarly the DMRL person claimed that the reason they are not making SCB for Kaveri using ToT from Al-31FP is because the contract does not allow the technology to be used elsewhere.

Yes. This is what I always suspected, that the Russian facility for SCB etc cannot be used elsewhere. It comes with end use restrictions. The Chinese of course wouldn't be bothered with such niceties and they would give the Russians be birdie (they clone entire planes , the SU -30 into a J11 ding dong) and if the Russians protest too much, they will tell them to take a walk or throw a few million dollars to them and tell them to suck it up.

[ragupta]

I didn't understand this sentence. Too many determiners/pronouns. Can you pls state it in simple(r) english? thx.

I had asked him why don't they just buy that Il-76 test bed. The GTRE guy said they wanted to but Russians wouldn't sell. And he went on saying that they are basically paying Russians to stop them from sharing the modifications done to resolve issues with Kaveri. We paid the Russians 140Cr or such amount for sum total of 70 odd hours of testing including 57-hrs of flight testing. If we run the entire flight test program with Russians, we would end up paying much more than what those facilities themselves cost. Its their Golden Egg laying Chicken. And we know that Chinese also come with their engine for testing in those same facilities. May be GTRE folks are worried Russians will sell them our stuff.

Take this FWIW. Its not possible to verify such information. But its very much plausible.

Interestingly that person also claimed that MiG-29 test bed for Kaveri isn't happening because Russians are not allowing to use MiG29 for that.

Similarly the DMRL person claimed that the reason they are not making SCB for Kaveri using ToT from Al-31FP is because the contract does not allow the technology to be used elsewhere.

It is not difficult to believe, no one will want to lose the golden goose.

Now the question is how do we acquire that capability. Can you build one, acquire one. Everyone who have one had acquired it somehow.
Can they create a hack with all the talent available in the country. If MII is the mission, there should not be any shortage for fund. availability is an issue.

No doubt, we are buying less and less from Russia, and slowly that pool will reduce drastically, no major system buy till they are willing to sell what India needs.

[srin]

What is the point of ToT if you can't use it elsewhere ? Obviously, Russians wouldn't want us to sell it to a third-party, but what is the point in putting a restriction on usage of the SCB tech in our own engines ? And WTF are we obeying that diktat ? I like the Chinese approach of reverse engineering the entire plane. We should do that for every major component that we import.

[Karan M]

Jay, they sold that engine testbed to China but won't sell it to us. Looks like they are holding out for more money.

[ragupta]

I had asked him why don't they just buy that Il-76 test bed.

I am talking more about the altitude test facility like this UK NGTE Pyestock or the facility at NASA Glenn. or at Anecom & DLR and of course Gromov in Russia.

The IL-76 / 747 flying test beds etc are the final stage. But to get there, you need to do testing in the altitude test facilities , debug, fix, debug loop , run the stipulated number of hours in it, etc before putting on a plane.

These facilities aren't cheap , both to set up and run of course. Per this Article HAL was supposed to set up a altitude test facility @ Koraput for Rs 1500 crores. I doubt it came about. That is a heck of a lot of money.

Similarly the DMRL person claimed that the reason they are not making SCB for Kaveri using ToT from Al-31FP is because the contract does not allow the technology to be used elsewhere.

Yes. This is what I always suspected, that the Russian facility for SCB etc cannot be used elsewhere. It comes with end use restrictions. The Chinese of course wouldn't be bothered with such niceties and they would give the Russians be birdie (they clone entire planes , the SU -30 into a J11 ding dong) and if the Russians protest too much, they will tell them to take a walk or throw a few million dollars to them and tell them to suck it up.

1500 Cr is just the cost of 1 or 2 fighter at the most. So how come it is so much of money.

[ragupta]

India has been too nice for too long. time to bend the finger and get the what you want.

[Avarachan]

If Russia won't sell India the testing infrastructure India needs, India should approach Germany. Currently, Germany doesn't sell fighter aircraft to India, so Germany isn't immediately threatened by India's engine development the way Russia is. If necessary, India should link German assistance with engine development to the P-75I submarine purchase (which can be used as a bargaining chip, in my opinion).

I like the Chinese approach of reverse engineering the entire plane. We should do that for every major component that we import.

This is off-topic, but it's becoming increasingly clear that the Chinese developmental model of steal-and-copy is reaching its inherent limits. For instance, if the J-11B/D (which is a copy of Russia's Su-27) were so great, China wouldn't have gone back to Russia to purchase the Su-35 (which is essentially a deeply-upgraded Su-27). Also, the much-vaunted J-20 (which is a modified MiG 1.44) is still dependent on Russian engines. The Chinese dream of leapfrogging Russian military technology by breaking contracts and making illegal copies hasn't worked. Despite China's massive accumulation of debt, China's military-aviation technology is still behind Russia's, in general.

The Indian way--honoring agreements while simultaneously negotiating with multiple foreign vendors and funding local research--is superior. Of course, the funding for local research needs to be drastically increased.

[NRao]

This is off-topic, but it's becoming increasingly clear that the Chinese developmental model of steal-and-copy is reaching its inherent limits.

That tho is sach.

But, I very much doubt it applies to India. India does have a solid research base, but one that is not incented to productize that research. And, the political pressures are diff. So, I very much doubt India will need to steal and copy. It would be more like look and improve, which is what I bet they are reluctant to do. This would, IMHO, be a means to shorten the time. The product would be better in many respects.

[hanumadu]

1500 Cr is just the cost of 1 or 2 fighter at the most. So how come it is so much of money.

It might not be a question of money only. It might itself require technology that we do not have.

[hanumadu]

I had asked him why don't they just buy that Il-76 test bed. The GTRE guy said they wanted to but Russians wouldn't sell. And he went on saying that they are basically paying Russians to stop them from sharing the modifications done to resolve issues with Kaveri. We paid the Russians 140Cr or such amount for sum total of 70 odd hours of testing including 57-hrs of flight testing. If we run the entire flight test program with Russians, we would end up paying much more than what those facilities themselves cost. Its their Golden Egg laying Chicken. And we know that Chinese also come with their engine for testing in those same facilities. May be GTRE folks are worried Russians will sell them our stuff.

Take this FWIW. Its not possible to verify such information. But its very much plausible.

Interestingly that person also claimed that MiG-29 test bed for Kaveri isn't happening because Russians are not allowing to use MiG29 for that.

Similarly the DMRL person claimed that the reason they are not making SCB for Kaveri using ToT from Al-31FP is because the contract does not allow the technology to be used elsewhere.

How will the Russian's know about the changes unless they are outwardly visible? I hope they are not going to take the engine apart but we will know if they do that. And why will the Russians sell that info to the Chinese because if that is the case, the Chinese may as well pay the Russians and get their engines fixed instead of paying to know what the Indians did to fix it. The Russians want to make money selling their engines to the Chinese, not helping them make their own engines.

[shiv]

The GTRE guy said that Single crystal blades if placed in Kaveri will have to go through a whole new process of certification - so there is no sense in trying to retrofit them into what is a working engine. For the future maybe. But I think HAL is using all sorts of modern stuff for their new engines. Actually we don;t need Russkies for SCB- Mishra Dhatu Nigam had shown them in 2013 - I have photos from back then. The tech is there for anyone to use.