Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Singha
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Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2007 19:56

there have been off and on labour union strikes in GTRE with red banners
strung up at the gate. per my ADA friend, people desiring rest head for
GTRE (go n take rest is the acronym in drdo township).
HAL & ADA have to take over GTRE and introduce reforms, else they will
drag on with the foreign collab until we are well into old age.

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Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2007 20:04

amazing.. once i had been to gtre blr, perhaps some 13-15 years back.. same seen. gosh!.. but at least then, i could see some 10% active designers seriously discussing, and the rest chai-biskoot. i used to ask so many questions, but they would never budge.. i am thinking now, the only 10% there is what i missed to talk with, and i now know why i was not able to get any information from rest select few. its not dont ask dont tell, but all unknown unknown things.

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Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2007 20:47

nothing changes there. the guards sometimes tear down the red banners but
soon are up again..its some recognized labour union. campus is huge but
always deserted looking.

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Postby Neshant » 29 Oct 2007 02:44

This is bad news.

It looks like the only thing they have invented is a means of asking others to do the research and build the engine for them... and hand over the results.

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Postby mandrake » 29 Oct 2007 03:15

Neshant wrote:This is bad news.

It looks like the only thing they have invented is a means of asking others to do the research and build the engine for them... and hand over the results.


Dont believe everything thats written up here. :) Lets wait for the K9 integration.

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Postby maitya » 29 Oct 2007 04:28

Kaveri production JV is an absolute must - creating a handful of prototypes is one thing while productionizing is a different ballgame altogether. Not sure, why so much dithering. :roll:

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Postby arun » 01 Nov 2007 20:48

X Post.

With apologies to the hardcore aviation buffs ......

Not sure if posted before as dates back to August.

Some movement on the marine Kaveri :

Inviting leading engineering firms For Manufacture of modules and Integration of Marine Gas Turbine engine.

EXPRESSION OF INTEREST

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Postby vina » 19 Nov 2007 11:08

Al-Hundi reports that Kabini is under testing at Moscow


Karnataka - Bangalore

Kaveri engine core undergoes testing

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: Kabini, the core of the much-delayed Kaveri engine, is undergoing high altitude testing at the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) in Moscow.

It has been taken by a team from the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment.

Kabini primarily makes up Kaveri’s high pressure compressor, high pressure turbine and high pressure combustor.

This is the second time that Kabini is taken to Moscow.

The team is headed by GTRE director T. Mohan Rao. It is hoped that the tests will generate sufficient data to allow a study of the characteristics of the components.

The GTRE had made a number of modifications to the Kabini since its last test in Moscow.
Necessary step

While the tests in Moscow are a necessary step, as India does not have such high altitude testing facilities, the process to identify a partner who will co-develop and co-produce the Kaveri along with the GTRE has been further delayed.

© Copyright 2000 - 2007 The Hindu


Our babus of course are doodling on paper , filling forms in triplicate , having "discussions" and pondering on objections / No Objections with regard to signing the partnership.

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Postby k prasad » 19 Nov 2007 12:41

vina wrote:Our babus of course are doodling on paper , filling forms in triplicate , having "discussions" and pondering on objections / No Objections with regard to signing the partnership.


Hehe... reminds me of Hitchhikers Guide to the Milky Way, when he describes Vogons:

"Vogons are one of the most unpleasant races in the galaxy. Not evil, but bad tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous. They wouldn't even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters. On no account should you allow a Vogon to read poetry to you."

Sounds a lot like our Netas too eh!!

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Postby Drevin » 19 Nov 2007 13:32

Nice news. Atleast it won't blow up now like last time.
Hope to see some thrust figures with after burner. :twisted:
Joey if you are following this forum: Any news on K9?

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Postby Singha » 19 Nov 2007 14:23

is KABINI = KAVERI - compressor - afterburner ?

might indicate they hope the foreign collab would improve these two aspects
while retaining the core kabini without which it might as well be called a
snecma or saturn engine.

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Postby Drevin » 19 Nov 2007 14:36

July 29th, 2007 article explaining the kabini, K9+ program and finally the K10 program from Frontier.

http://frontierindia.net/kaveri-engine-gathers-momentum/

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Postby mandrake » 19 Nov 2007 15:10

Singha wrote:is KABINI = KAVERI - compressor - afterburner ?

might indicate they hope the foreign collab would improve these two aspects
while retaining the core kabini without which it might as well be called a
snecma or saturn engine.



Singha jee, subtle psy ops da? 8) , I have posted two information compiled from various sources regarding kaveri, and none talks about Jv being for kabini; unless you know something we dont, because obviously kabini is going to Indian and the foreign JV is for something else and different aspects altogather.

vina wrote:Al-Hundi reports that Kabini is under testing at Moscow


Karnataka - Bangalore

Kaveri engine core undergoes testing

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: Kabini, the core of the much-delayed Kaveri engine, is undergoing high altitude testing at the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) in Moscow.

It has been taken by a team from the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment.

Kabini primarily makes up Kaveri’s high pressure compressor, high pressure turbine and high pressure combustor.

This is the second time that Kabini is taken to Moscow.

The team is headed by GTRE director T. Mohan Rao. It is hoped that the tests will generate sufficient data to allow a study of the characteristics of the components.

The GTRE had made a number of modifications to the Kabini since its last test in Moscow.
Necessary step

While the tests in Moscow are a necessary step, as India does not have such high altitude testing facilities, the process to identify a partner who will co-develop and co-produce the Kaveri along with the GTRE has been further delayed.

© Copyright 2000 - 2007 The Hindu


Our babus of course are doodling on paper , filling forms in triplicate , having "discussions" and pondering on objections / No Objections with regard to signing the partnership.


I dont really think this is the second time it has been headed for high altitude tests, can anyone confirm? there was a very nice book in google regarding the growth of kaveri engine.

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Postby vina » 19 Nov 2007 16:10

Singha wrote:is KABINI = KAVERI - compressor - afterburner ?

might indicate they hope the foreign collab would improve these two aspects
while retaining the core kabini without which it might as well be called a
snecma or saturn engine.


Well.. Algebra always was my weak point.. But let me take a stab.

Kaveri = Core (Kabin) + LP Compressor + LP Turbine + Afterburner + Accessories (Gearbox, Fadec, starter, bleed systems etc)..

My speculation is that that this is the second time that K9+ is going for altitude tests. No DDM on that the first round of tests failed (K9 seems to have had around 56 hrs of testing done earlier) before K9+ was needed. Guess that they have improved stuff at component (hp compressor, turbine and combustor) and also at a system level (all working together).. I would think that would have finally got the "final" material (for turbines, compressors etc) that are production weight budgeted and are testing this out..

Who knows, if all goes well with this test, they could complete the engine and get it ready for a series of limited tests on the LCA.

This two year babu doodling and filling triplicate paperwork and discussions is too suspicious. They would have signed the partnership in less than 3 months if their pants really on fire. The babu log have very well honed CYA instincts and know how to wrap themselves with flame proof and bullet proof paper to deflect respsonsibility when the ass whupping starts and the flame throwers start belching fire. What better way to do it than to find a "bakra" at the last minute and had the baby over to him ?... Throwing the "problem" over the wall to the other guy is the best CYA strategy there is.

That reason alone leads me to believe that the bulk if not all of the Kaveri problems (atleast development) have been licked and they probably need the partner most for actually manufacturing this stuff in quality and fix any niggling issues that arise..

-JMT

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Postby Dilbu » 19 Nov 2007 19:03

With my very limited knowledge on these matters let me voice my question. Since the core problem seems to be with the jet engine, can't the GTRE try to get some help from ISRO or the likes in India itself? Or have they already tried that options? I would expect ISRO wich is our poster boy who could develop cryogenic stage cumbustion engines to atleast throw some light on the issues. Again I might be making a fool of myself here but I thought the question was worth asking.

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Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2007 20:39

Folks - I shouldn't talk - having an open invitation to visit GTRE and not having taken it up yet.

However I will talk. We have a working engine folks. it's just not working well enough to power the LCA.

It may not call for a total redesign. But it calls for some serious tweaking.

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Postby mandrake » 19 Nov 2007 20:42

shiv wrote:Folks - I shouldn't talk - having an open invitation to visit GTRE and not having taken it up yet.

However I will talk. We have a working engine folks. it's just not working well enough to power the LCA.

It may not call for a total redesign. But it calls for some serious tweaking.


sir with me near your place, I'll be bugging you all the time to take up that invitation, Please shiv sir do it for us. 8)

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Postby ArmenT » 19 Nov 2007 21:45

@singha and vina:
Every jet engine needs a compressor, combustion chamber and turbine. That's the basic principle of the jet engine. So, refining your equation somewhat
Kabini = High pressure compressor + combustion chamber + High pressure turbine
Kaveri = Low pressure compressor + Kabini + Low pressure turbine + Afterburner + Nozzle + all the goodies

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Postby vina » 20 Nov 2007 06:30

shiv wrote:Folks - I shouldn't talk - having an open invitation to visit GTRE and not having taken it up yet.

However I will talk. We have a working engine folks. it's just not working well enough to power the LCA.

It may not call for a total redesign. But it calls for some serious tweaking.


Hmm Shivji, I think you should take up your invite to the GTRE and visit them. It does look like that they have tweaked the engine.. My speculation yesterday was partly right. This IS the second time that Kabini in its K9+ (canine) configuration is getting tested.

This Ravi Sharma of Al-Hundi seems to have his ears on the ground on the going ons at GTRE wrt Kaveri. Another report today to follow up on what he wrote yestereday.

Kabini core engine tested in Russia

[quote]Kabini core engine tested in Russia

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: A team from the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has just returned after taking Kabini — the core of India’s indigenous combat aircraft engine endeavour, the much delayed Kaveri engine — for high altitude testing at the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) in Moscow. The team headed by the GTRE’s Director T. Mohan Rao generated data to allow a study of the characteristics of the Kabini’s components.

This is the second time that Kabini, which constitutes the crucial hot end section of the Kaveri engine (primarily the engine’s high pressure compressor, high pressure turbine and high pressure combustor), has been taken to Moscow. Sources said the GTRE had made many modifications to the Kabini since it was last tested at Moscow. “These modifications and the parts have to be proved in testing before they are transferred on to the Kaveri engine.â€

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Postby JCage » 20 Nov 2007 10:54

The Kabini was first tested at CIAM in Mid August '98.

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Kaveri

Postby deovratsingh » 20 Nov 2007 20:14

It seems Chinese are at least a decade ahead of India in designing, stealing, copying and building Fighter aircrafts. They have a working
( Xerox Copied) engine platform whcih they would use to power their new fighters ( in thousands), while Indian Babus would take another 5 yrs to decide between Senecma and Russian Engine makers? It's very fascinating that in India- MOD Babus have no sense of urgency and responsibilities, no matter how much IAF would cry, beg or throw tanter tantrums.

When first Engine trial failed in Russia, had they had any collaborative agreement( even with Saturn), the Kaveri would had been up and flying in LCA by now? With PAKFA agreement with Russians, now MCA would be cancelled as well. So after LCA and may be LCA II, the Indian capability to design and build Fighters would stagnate and retard. The electronics inputs in 5 th Gen PAK FA( MKIzing) would not be a subtitute for experience in designing and building MCA, unless DRDO teams up with MIG or French; for single Engine MCA or / with twin TVC kaveri MCA.

You can look this statement as a frustration and can defend MOD/ GTRE by various arguments, but this mess and sloppiness is inexcusable by modern standards and efficiencies. Think about this delay in the context, when India does not have Tech denial ( c.f Chinese) except for a brief period of 3yrs after POK II. Russians and French never supported Tech embargo even after POK II ? What would had happened had they had complete tech denial like Chinese?

Regards,

DSingh.

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Postby Singha » 20 Nov 2007 20:33

Ru, France, Italy, germany have not imposed any tech denial on PRC either.
the EU does it on the sly and doesnt disclose the details much. for example
the Thales tavitac ship combat system and the french ciws suddenly get
'cloned' all without OEM help and deployed.

I do agree the PRC has been very focussed since atleast the early 1980s
and have deployed considerable resources to get where it is today.

India seems to have got into this mode only around 2000, clearly 15 yrs
later...and we are still slower and bit confused.

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Postby mandrake » 20 Nov 2007 20:34

Dsingh the previous test was not a total failure... check the book on kaveri in google books.

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Re: Kaveri

Postby Mihir.D » 20 Nov 2007 20:49

deovratsingh wrote:It seems Chinese are at least a decade ahead of India in designing, stealing, copying and building Fighter aircrafts. They have a working
( Xerox Copied) engine platform whcih they would use to power their new fighters ( in thousands), while Indian Babus would take another 5 yrs to decide between Senecma and Russian Engine makers? It's very fascinating that in India- MOD Babus have no sense of urgency and responsibilities, no matter how much IAF would cry, beg or throw tanter tantrums.

When first Engine trial failed in Russia, had they had any collaborative agreement( even with Saturn), the Kaveri would had been up and flying in LCA by now? With PAKFA agreement with Russians, now MCA would be cancelled as well. So after LCA and may be LCA II, the Indian capability to design and build Fighters would stagnate and retard. The electronics inputs in 5 th Gen PAK FA( MKIzing) would not be a subtitute for experience in designing and building MCA, unless DRDO teams up with MIG or French; for single Engine MCA or / with twin TVC kaveri MCA.

You can look this statement as a frustration and can defend MOD/ GTRE by various arguments, but this mess and sloppiness is inexcusable by modern standards and efficiencies. Think about this delay in the context, when India does not have Tech denial ( c.f Chinese) except for a brief period of 3yrs after POK II. Russians and French never supported Tech embargo even after POK II ? What would had happened had they had complete tech denial like Chinese?

Regards,

DSingh.


MCA cancelled ! We were thinking it is India's equivalent to JSF whereas the PAK-FA is the F-22 .

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Re: Kaveri

Postby Anujan » 20 Nov 2007 23:00

deovratsingh wrote:It seems Chinese are at least a decade ahead of India in designing, stealing, copying and building Fighter aircrafts. They have a working
( Xerox Copied) engine platform whcih they would use to power their new fighters ( in thousands), while Indian Babus would take another 5 yrs to decide between Senecma and Russian Engine makers?


DSingh-ji,

Maybe I am an incorrigible optimist, but this is the Indian way of development. Let the Chinese steal and xerox copy, but when our engine is made, it will be worth the wait. Look at the missiles, Agni I was a long time coming, Agni II was fast and Agni III is the jewel in the crown. Same with our rockets - we went at it with minimal (to no) assistance and now are self sufficient.

Xeroxing, TOTing, copying will do us no good. As long as the program is still on and is showing measurable progress, no need to fret. Think some X years down the line when all of our ships are powered by the Kaveri derivative, LCA is up and flying and there are gas turbine derivatives for our helicopters and UCAVs.

Yes, by "modern" standards this slippage is inexcusable but when did we "modernize" ? We cannot leapfrog into professional project management and engineering planning and execution, without succeeding in one undertaking all (or mostly) by ourselves. If the next aviation project the size of LCA/Kaveri takes this much time, the babus need a nice kick on their musharrafs. But the first time around, give them some slack - we are learning.

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Postby SaiK » 16 Dec 2007 06:19

saw an sc blade mftg in discover/sci chan.. that was an interesting sc blade production for boeing 787 trent engines by rolls royce factory.

the cool thing is from the mold to single crystal growth at a controlled temp, they further use a micron cutting machine fed by CAD to cut the blades to the desired shape.. sope its not just the blade made from mold alone. on top of this, they ingrain a .5 micron holes using water jet and laser on the blades in a pattern of the air flow, that cools the blade further at 2500*F.

nice show!.. good learning.. and the prod setup is all robotics.

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Postby vina » 17 Dec 2007 06:30

From The Hindu.. This Ravi Sharma dude sure seems to have ears close to the ground at GTRE.. Looks like the Euro (trash) are now riding in with offer to help.

Now we know what Angela Merkel was really aiming for with her India trip..

[quote]

Date:17/12/2007 Eurojet Offers to help

National

Combat aircraft engine: Eurojet ready to help

Ravi Sharma

Willing to transfer technology for developing engine for Tejas

Eurojet has signed a non-disclosure agreement with ADA

India should become a partner not just a customer

BANGALORE: As India tries to break into the elite group of countries that have designed and developed combat aircraft engines, Eurojet Turbo GmbH the European consortium that builds and maintains the advanced military turbofan Eurojet EJ200 says it is ready to assist India: either by developing an engine together or transferring technology on the EJ200.

The EJ200 is the power plant of the Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the world’s most advanced combat aircraft and a contender vying for the $11 billion, 126 combat aircraft deal that India is contemplating signing.

Speaking to The Hindu, Eurojet’s Business Development Executive Paul Herrmann said the consortium, whose partner companies are Rolls-Royce, Avio of Italy, ITP of Spain and MTU Aero Engines of Germany, was ready to transfer “secured dataâ€

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Postby Singha » 17 Dec 2007 06:56

Ganga = EJ200 compressors + kaveri combustion chamber + EJ200 afterburner + EJ200 blisk making technology + revamp of GTRE

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Postby gopal.suri » 17 Dec 2007 07:02

My opinion is that this has come in as Tejas Naval engine has to be selected.

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Postby Austin » 17 Dec 2007 07:39

Oh now we have too many of them to help with Kaveri , Snecma with M88 and now EJ200 , I think GE was always there.

But since we are using GE 404 , and the LCA so tightly integrated and tested with GE404 variants,and we (LCA Team ) are so well aware of it by now Inspite all the risk involved , it make sense to move with GE if nothing else to make the development life cycle faster and field Kaveri ASAP.

Kaveri as a Naval Engine would be best to get rid of those Ukrainian and American engines powering our Destroyers and Frigate , and prolly the right place for Kaveri to prove what it is.

What is the status of Kaveri on Naval Platform ?

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Postby gopal.suri » 17 Dec 2007 07:52

Its premature to talk about Kaveri marine as replacement. Its under testing and Navy is set to test drive it. Don't expect it to be considered for actual deployment for next 5 years. It will see test deployments though.

The naval varient will require a higher thrust.

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Postby Austin » 17 Dec 2007 08:08

Premature might be , but at the hands of Naval Folks it seems to have a better future.

Thrust is quite ok , AKAIK its current thrust is similar to what the American engine currently delivers on Naval ships , thats about 19 MW

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Postby gopal.suri » 17 Dec 2007 08:12

Oh! I meant thrust for the naval LCA varient.I should have written it.

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Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2007 08:19

slightly OT, its premature to name projects within drdos.. since our russkie and pirang minded middlemen having a larger network within the requirements and needs folks.. its better we have some numbers like P.0346, that is totally human forgettable if not tracking it.

for example the many names like kaveri, ganga, ashwin, akash, nag etc would make the indian special afshar juntas quite dushum dushum desi who thinks our things are not pirangi enough to be used for real life use.

2c. i like navies nomenclature like p-17 etc.. or something like ATV or ADS is not bad either that does not cause a inferior approach towards our india-genous products.

Kaveri is a lost case in the sense, our gtre folks have given up.. tarnished now, the name is for sale for pirangies offers. shame from our end is always hard to take.. yes, we have achieved this and that..but it remains not exploited or invested into more.

we need more investment into K.

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Invite Indian Private Sector

Postby Sona R » 19 Dec 2007 07:18

We cannot expect GTRE or HAL to develop State of Art Engine for LCA.
The better but bitter alternative is ask Indian Private Sector to take from point GTRE has failed.

Big Diesel Engine Manufacturer like kirloskar , Greaves should be asked to team with companies like MTU of Germany or Pratt & Whitney of India and save the kaveri engine.

Even PSU like BHEL can be asked to do it.

Only way kaveri can be saved is to hand its development to parties other than GTRE or HAL

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MTU- May Be The Right Choice

Postby Sona R » 19 Dec 2007 07:31

Raj Malhotra wrote:I think that collaboration with P&W can be good idea as they don't have an engine in the category of Kaveri - F404.

Another compay we can tap is MTU as they have rich knowledge of turbines but don't make anything in this category.


I think that P&W is trying to get back into civilian field with new type ofengines with JV with MTU, I wonder if India can join it?

Also P&W 6000 has not been successful and India can perhaps go in for collaboration to upgrade it and use if for MTA and enter Civilian market with an expericenced partner like P&W


MTU has excellent R&D and good ties with universities and institution dating back to WWII in germany.
Every major engine manufacturer in europe and to extent USA has some or other link with MTU and they tap its above mentioned base.
But the high cost economy of germany prohibits MTU from going alone in developing engine's on its own.
If our DOD is able to fund some of its development program on condition that MTU would solve and fix Kaveri engine problem then it would be a win-win situation .
All depends if all concerned are able give up there ego complex

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Postby Rahul M » 19 Dec 2007 12:03

We cannot expect GTRE or HAL to develop State of Art Engine for LCA.
The better but bitter alternative is ask Indian Private Sector to take from point GTRE has failed.
Big Diesel Engine Manufacturer like kirloskar , Greaves should be asked to team with companies like MTU of Germany or Pratt & Whitney of India and save the kaveri engine.


great idea !!!!

and what is the experience of these companies in state-of the art turbofan designing and manufacturing ??
or do you propose to use the greaves galaxy
instead ??

do shut up before I do something "innovative" to your appearance !! :evil: :evil:

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What is record of HAL

Postby Sona R » 19 Dec 2007 12:23

Rahul M wrote:
We cannot expect GTRE or HAL to develop State of Art Engine for LCA.
The better but bitter alternative is ask Indian Private Sector to take from point GTRE has failed.
Big Diesel Engine Manufacturer like kirloskar , Greaves should be asked to team with companies like MTU of Germany or Pratt & Whitney of India and save the kaveri engine.


great idea !!!!

and what is the experience of these companies in state-of the art turbofan designing and manufacturing ??
or do you propose to use the greaves galaxy
instead ??

do shut up before I do something "innovative" to your appearance !! :evil: :evil:


What record GTRE or for that matter HAL has in state-of the art turbofan designing and manufacturing ??

HAL uptil now has only assembled or made license production of either western or soviet design engines, compared to chinese who have tried to copy or modify the soviet design engines the record of HAL is nothing to good.

Even in States or Europe most of the OEM supplier for aero-engine's manufacturers are diesel engine manufacturer

Unless indian private sector is involved there is no salvation for kaveri engine

Sona R
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 10
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 15:24

The new alliance of GE & Honda

Postby Sona R » 19 Dec 2007 12:43

Drevin wrote:As of now its only Safran and Saturn in the race. Eurojet needs to get GoI's blessings to make it into the rfp.


GE of USA & Honda of Japan has started joint venture to design,develop & manufacture jet engine's for bussiness jets-

hf120 is turbofan engine manufactured by this JV

http://www.gehonda.com/index.html

http://www.gehonda.com/products/hf120/

GE Honda Aero Engines was established to design and manufacture engines in the 1000 to 3500 pound thrust class. With offices in Cincinnati, OH and Reston, VA, the company combines the strengths of two industry leaders in performance engines to deliver a new standard in durability, reliability and economy for business aviation


Only a Consortium comprising Foreign Collabrator like MTU , Roll-Royce , HAL, GTRE & Indian private sector like L&T, Kirloskar can save Kaveri or else it is designed to oblivion

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Postby Sanku » 19 Dec 2007 12:49

Can some one please innovate to put the latest troll under usual forum rules??


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