Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Jul 2018 23:41

JTull wrote:Could Jags be considered instead of Mig-29s? We've lot more local knowledge about the internals.

How boss? Look at the comparisons of the engines on the Jag and Kaveri. The latter is much bigger and twice as powerful.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 13 Jul 2018 08:39

The flight tests, if successful, will only meet reliability goals.

The other problem is weight, about 1250 kg. (EJ 200 is 950 kg, M88 is 650 kg ).

They have to reduce it, while maintaining all other parameters.

Thrust was specified as 13% higher than the F-404.

I assume it meant 88 KN vs the GE engine's 78 KN?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby habal » 13 Jul 2018 11:58

RD33 weighs 1050 kg and K9 is 1250 kg? So how is this compensated aerodynamically when a twin engine platform carries two dissimilar weighing engines ?

Also since this is a 3 decade old project, many of engine components in present day kaveri would have been developed a couple of decades ago and will not have benefit of advances in mettalurgy and material sciences in the interim. And thus the weight issue. A 4th gen engine developed with 3rd gen materials tech of 70s/80s vintage. This problem occured because of the long gestation. Apart from India, no other country ventured to produce an engine on their own and came so far and thus kaveri looks odd man out in weight class amongst regular engines. the usual engine manufacturers would take 5 years to develop an engine so their materials were/are more current.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jul 2018 22:32

GTRE has issued a tender for 'Expression of Interest for Altitude Tests of Kaveri Engine and its Derivative', bid opening on 1st Aug 18

Dimensions & details of Engine as per EOI document
Inlet Dia : 749mm
Max Dia : 940mm
Length : 3900mm

LP Comp - Three stage
HP Comp - Six stage
HP Turbine - single stage & cooled
LP Turbine - single stage
Main Combustion Chamber - annular direct flow
Afterburner system with axi-symmetric exhaust nozzle
The engine has a Kaveri full Authority Digital Engine Control System (KADECS)

Kaveri is of following performance class at Indian Standard Atmosphere (ISA) Sea level Static (SLS)

Dry Thrust 52 kN
Dry SFC 0.78 kg/kgf/hr
Dry air flow 77.8 kg/sec
Reheat Thrust 81 kN
Reheat SFC 2.03 kg/kgf/hr
Reheat air flow 77.8 kg/sec

Tests to be conducted in two phases in next 3 years Phase 1 AT-1 75 hrs Phase 2 AT-2 100 hrs

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 27 Jul 2018 22:49

Kakarat wrote:GTRE has issued a tender for 'Expression of Interest for Altitude Tests of Kaveri Engine and its Derivative', bid opening on 1st Aug 18

Dimensions & details of Engine as per EOI document
Inlet Dia : 749mm
Max Dia : 940mm
Length : 3900mm

LP Comp - Three stage
HP Comp - Six stage
HP Turbine - single stage & cooled
LP Turbine - single stage
Main Combustion Chamber - annular direct flow
Afterburner system with axi-symmetric exhaust nozzle
The engine has a Kaveri full Authority Digital Engine Control System (KADECS)

Kaveri is of following performance class at Indian Standard Atmosphere (ISA) Sea level Static (SLS)

Dry Thrust 52 kN
Dry SFC 0.78 kg/kgf/hr
Dry air flow 77.8 kg/sec
Reheat Thrust 81 kN
Reheat SFC 2.03 kg/kgf/hr
Reheat air flow 77.8 kg/sec

Tests to be conducted in two phases in next 3 years Phase 1 AT-1 75 hrs Phase 2 AT-2 100 hrs


Fantastic! Ready for flight testing. Who is going to get the contract? Russians again with their Il-76 or the French this time?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby nam » 27 Jul 2018 22:50

dinesh_kimar wrote:The flight tests, if successful, will only meet reliability goals.



That probably is the most important thing. If we have a reliable engine, it is huge.

Weight reduction can happen next.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jul 2018 23:03

chola wrote:
Fantastic! Ready for flight testing. Who is going to get the contract? Russians again with their Il-76 or the French this time?


The EOI calls for a Engine house or a Test house with high altitude test facility to test the engine with connected inlet duct to simulate high altitude and high speed conditions so most probably it going to be the French

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 27 Jul 2018 23:09

Kakarat wrote:
chola wrote:
Fantastic! Ready for flight testing. Who is going to get the contract? Russians again with their Il-76 or the French this time?


The EOI calls for a Engine house or a Test house with high altitude test facility to test the engine with connected inlet duct to simulate high altitude and high speed conditions so most probably it going to be the French


Oh, thanks for the explanation. Good news that they are confident enough to test again.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2018 00:21

Update us after the complete ground test in a chamber.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby nvishal » 28 Jul 2018 00:27

Kakarat wrote:GTRE has issued a tender for 'Expression of Interest for Altitude Tests of Kaveri Engine and its Derivative', bid opening on 1st Aug 18

Who made these recent improvements that warrant a test? Safran?

The progress of kaveri has always been a mystery.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neshant » 28 Jul 2018 16:54

They must be testing the existing version of the Kaveri for the Aura drone (stealth drone).

It was mentioned somewhere that the Kaveri would see usage for that project.

Its not for the LCA.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kakarat » 28 Jul 2018 20:55

Neshant wrote:They must be testing the existing version of the Kaveri for the Aura drone (stealth drone).

It was mentioned somewhere that the Kaveri would see usage for that project.

Its not for the LCA.


Kaveri version for the UAV is Non Reheat version but the one being tested is the reheat version

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Jul 2018 21:09

I think best use of Kaveri would be in AJT based on LCA.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 30 Jul 2018 00:33

A few questions?

How many GE engines are we getting for Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and likely to get for Mk2? And about at what cost? Planning to write an article on potential cost savings with having a French assisted Kaveri in context of Rafale. Thanks.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 30 Jul 2018 00:35

Gyan, the best use comes from the first use of the engine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neshant » 30 Jul 2018 07:15

Its too late for cost savings and changing engines.

Its time to produce whatever works.

Any more delay and this project is dead.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Jul 2018 10:46

SaiK wrote:Gyan, the best use comes from the first use of the engine.


We need to put Kaveri to "some" use to build up for experience and data base. AJT may not have same power demand as frontline fighter jets.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 31 Jul 2018 15:53

Kakarat wrote:GTRE has issued a tender for 'Expression of Interest for Altitude Tests of Kaveri Engine and its Derivative', bid opening on 1st Aug 18

Dimensions & details of Engine as per EOI document
Inlet Dia : 749mm
Max Dia : 940mm
Length : 3900mm

LP Comp - Three stage
HP Comp - Six stage
HP Turbine - single stage & cooled
LP Turbine - single stage
Main Combustion Chamber - annular direct flow
Afterburner system with axi-symmetric exhaust nozzle
The engine has a Kaveri full Authority Digital Engine Control System (KADECS)

Kaveri is of following performance class at Indian Standard Atmosphere (ISA) Sea level Static (SLS)

Dry Thrust 52 kN
Dry SFC 0.78 kg/kgf/hr
Dry air flow 77.8 kg/sec
Reheat Thrust 81 kN
Reheat SFC 2.03 kg/kgf/hr
Reheat air flow 77.8 kg/sec

Tests to be conducted in two phases in next 3 years Phase 1 AT-1 75 hrs Phase 2 AT-2 100 hrs


Too little too late.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 31 Jul 2018 16:05

Jays, why sir.

IMO, as long as it is mature within the service life of Tejas, it should be OK. No?

Or is it because it is not producing enough thrust for service requirements that are stated for mk2 and the AMCA.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 31 Jul 2018 18:56

Never too late. If not for Tejas then for something. Even an indigenous piston or turboprop (we don’t have either) is useful. Never mind a working turbofan. Many uses UAVs, trainers, cruise missile, you name it.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chetak » 31 Jul 2018 19:15

habal wrote:RD33 weighs 1050 kg and K9 is 1250 kg? So how is this compensated aerodynamically when a twin engine platform carries two dissimilar weighing engines ?

Also since this is a 3 decade old project, many of engine components in present day kaveri would have been developed a couple of decades ago and will not have benefit of advances in mettalurgy and material sciences in the interim. And thus the weight issue. A 4th gen engine developed with 3rd gen materials tech of 70s/80s vintage. This problem occured because of the long gestation. Apart from India, no other country ventured to produce an engine on their own and came so far and thus kaveri looks odd man out in weight class amongst regular engines. the usual engine manufacturers would take 5 years to develop an engine so their materials were/are more current.


In spite of engines with different weights, if they can maintain the aircraft CG within the specified limits, sometimes, additional ballast weights may be required, they should be OK.

Additionally, with differing weights on the two engines, a different trim setting may be required for flight, which may be accommodated by the existing FCS or if not, the FCS itself may have to be tweaked to provide the required safety for the flight tests.

just my two paise onlee.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chetak » 31 Jul 2018 19:24

Neshant wrote:Its too late for cost savings and changing engines.

Its time to produce whatever works.

Any more delay and this project is dead.


Cost saving is not the aim. Derisking the supply chain is.

Not advisable to stick with an extremely unreliable, politically driven primary source whose national, regional and military objectives can change at the drop of a hat and whose word is worth nothing. A different administration can scuttle everything simply by going "kerry luger" on us.

This can go on as a separate and independent project without affecting anything ongoing.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby nam » 31 Jul 2018 19:53

JayS wrote:
Too little too late.


Too little definitely, too late may be not.

If they can rollout a lower thrust engine for UCAV and continue with it to achieve reliability, that would be most important thing.

It is better a UAV with Kaveri crash, than LCA with Kaveri. Thrust can probably increase with collaboration with French/Russians once we prove a reliable engine.
Last edited by nam on 31 Jul 2018 21:01, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2018 20:45

Good post nam

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neela » 06 Aug 2018 13:44

Just read the news the Spicejet will buy Bombarider Q400 . 23 bought. 25 further planned.
Q400 uses PW 12X series turboprops.
We have no R&D or development of turboprops. Surely Surely this is a more achievable target with implications for military transport.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 06 Aug 2018 19:44

Neela wrote:Just read the news the Spicejet will buy Bombarider Q400 . 23 bought. 25 further planned.
Q400 uses PW 12X series turboprops.
We have no R&D or development of turboprops. Surely Surely this is a more achievable target with implications for military transport.


We do not even have a piston for the Rustom I and had to import a Lycoming 4-cylinder. With the Rustom II we needed to import a Saturn turboprop. We do not have a turbojet for trainers, drones, cruise missiles even though we had assembled hundreds of Tumanskies for the MiG-21.

So when we went for a cutting edge combat turbofan with the Kaveri in the 1990s, we were attempting a moonshot without any of the industrial infrastructure needed for such a development.

It could not be anything other than a lab experiment by GTRE because when the industry cannot provide you with components that you have to either make from scratch inside your lab or buy from the phoren market.

We need a foundation for the engine industry. It can’t just be a fighter turbofan. We need the whole gamut — pistons, turboprops and turbojets too.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 06 Aug 2018 23:05

Rustom IIs never flew on Saturn engines. Anyhow, they are now flying on desi diesel engines.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 06 Aug 2018 23:18

Indranil wrote:Rustom IIs never flew on Saturn engines. Anyhow, they are now flying on desi diesel engines.


The DDM is wrong (again)?
https://indianexpress.com/article/what-is/what-is-rustom-ii-drone-5077614/lite/
The Rustom 2 is propelled by two 3-bladed NPO saturn engines.


I hope you are right, Saar!

But according to IDRW in June, the desi diesel (derived from an auto engine) is to replace the Saturns currently powering the Rustom II.
http://idrw.org/indigenous-diesel-turboprop-engine-for-rustom-2-developed/

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Prasad » 06 Aug 2018 23:24


Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 06 Aug 2018 23:38

chola wrote:
Indranil wrote:Rustom IIs never flew on Saturn engines. Anyhow, they are now flying on desi diesel engines.


The DDM is wrong (again)?
https://indianexpress.com/article/what-is/what-is-rustom-ii-drone-5077614/lite/
The Rustom 2 is propelled by two 3-bladed NPO saturn engines.


I hope you are right, Saar!

Which Saturn engine? It all started with Neelam Mathews who said it was a 36MT engine. DDM kept drawing on the same without even realizing that the said engine is a turbofan!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 07 Aug 2018 00:27

Indranil wrote:
chola wrote:
The DDM is wrong (again)?
https://indianexpress.com/article/what-is/what-is-rustom-ii-drone-5077614/lite/


I hope you are right, Saar!

Which Saturn engine? It all started with Neelam Mathews who said it was a 36MT engine. DDM kept drawing on the same without even realizing that the said engine is a turbofan!


*SMACKS FOREHEAD* Now it makes sense! When I first heard of the desi diesel I was confused why they would go from a turboprop back to a piston in the desi diesel. There was never a turboprop in the first place. We are going from Lycoming in Rustom I to desi diesel in Rustom II.

Damn desi media dorks, can’t live them but can’t lve without them.

Thanks, Indranil Saar.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chetak » 08 Aug 2018 17:18

Rotax seems to be the gold standard for UAV engines.

We should have imported a few, used them in desi projects and tried to reverse engineer them. That would have seemed a likelier proposition.

Didn't rutan form the basis for some of the desi experiments??

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Indranil » 09 Aug 2018 10:20

The Rustom 1s are powered by A single Rotax engine and the Rustom 2s were powered by Lycomings. There are 8 prototypes of the latter kind.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Will » 09 Aug 2018 18:24

Any updates on the high altitude test facility that was supposed to be set up by Boeing as part of offsets????

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Aug 2018 10:14

Youtube has many poitive updates on Kaveri and Manik turbofans.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sarang » 16 Aug 2018 17:10

can you share some links?

helpful for BRfites like me, who gets some action from seniors like you!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 16 Aug 2018 19:55


ramana
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Aug 2018 21:13

chola Thanks. sarang was browsing on my tablet. Sorry

The sum total I got from many videos is that MoD is serious and they are following the path nam also hit on.
Kaveri No reheat, Kaveri with reheat and Kaveri ++

SAFRAN is providing the know how.or at-least stiffening the GTRE spine.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sarang » 16 Aug 2018 22:41

Dhanyawad, Cholaji

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Nishn » 18 Aug 2018 07:33

The most robust engine out there today for the top tier segment of UAV's are turbo-props my friends. The older generation UAV's started with pistons and then slowly transitioned to turbo props. General-Atomics built Predators use TPE-331. An engine that we are so very well versed with on the
HAL-DO-228 and now being tested on the new HAL Trainer.
With our evolving relationship with Khan, there should not be an issue with the Rustom-2 flying with the TPE-331. Would fly well above the weather, and be able to carry a payload of ordnance. And better still be able to use Jet-A fuel rather than piston powered AV Gas. What a logistics head ache that would be. Nothing in the Indian inventory uses AV Gas. The last of it was on the HPT-32.


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