Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 08 Jan 2019 15:40

Was just reading Dassault CEO's interview by Sandeep Unnithan, so we can be reasonably assured of no DDM crap.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/r ... 2018-03-10

This line from it:

We will support the integration of this new engine in this new aircraft.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jan 2019 02:07

X-Post from the AMCA thread....website does not allow cut-and-paste.

ArjunPandit wrote:India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft program: What happened to Kaveri engine?
https://www.oneindia.com/india/indias-a ... 27340.html

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jan 2019 02:08

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1087330930757255169 ---> India should take up jet engine development on a national mission mode basis which will bring together DRDO's GTRE with industry and academia alongside a foreign technology partner. An empowered committee should have oversight.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1087330961233199104 ---> The objective should be to build a 115-125 KN (wet thrust) low-bypass turbofan engine for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52586
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2019 21:04

I click on this thread hopefully to hear significant progress with Kaveri.
All I hear is 'should' and 'would'.

Nowadays defence reporters are sounding like wish list promoters.
When do they report what is happening?

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3572
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Jan 2019 21:28

Hmmm, in twitter discussion with Saurav Jha. Yes, I know it sounds far-fetched but is there a plan for this? Kaveri for the Rafale?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdvaidhyaT/status/1086544330603425792

Advaidhya Tiwari
@AdvaidhyaT
Replying to
@ersakthivel1 @SJha1618 and @HALHQBLR

The RAFALE MMRCA_2 will use Kaveri engine itself. No Snecma involvement. Instead Rafale itself will use Kaveri engine made by India. India is making Kaveri fully indigenously without French help

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jan 2019 21:39

That is incorrect. But would be nice if it could work, but incorrect.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19312
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 23 Jan 2019 21:47

chola wrote:Hmmm, in twitter discussion with Saurav Jha. Yes, I know it sounds far-fetched but is there a plan for this? Kaveri for the Rafale?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdvaidhyaT/status/1086544330603425792

Advaidhya Tiwari
@AdvaidhyaT
Replying to
@ersakthivel1 @SJha1618 and @HALHQBLR

The RAFALE MMRCA_2 will use Kaveri engine itself. No Snecma involvement. Instead Rafale itself will use Kaveri engine made by India. India is making Kaveri fully indigenously without French help


real good stuff that these guys are smoking.

is the afghan connection paying off at last??

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3572
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Jan 2019 22:09

chetak wrote:
chola wrote:Hmmm, in twitter discussion with Saurav Jha. Yes, I know it sounds far-fetched but is there a plan for this? Kaveri for the Rafale?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdvaidhyaT/status/1086544330603425792



real good stuff that these guys are smoking.

is the afghan connection paying off at last??


Saar, normally I would just pass over a tweet like that.

But I saw the handle of Saurav Jha and the official one of HAL in the thread. So maybe something to it, I thought.

Can’t fault a guy for being hopeful. :|

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19312
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 23 Jan 2019 22:30

chola wrote:
chetak wrote:
real good stuff that these guys are smoking.

is the afghan connection paying off at last??


Saar, normally I would just pass over a tweet like that.

But I saw the handle of Saurav Jha and the official one of HAL in the thread. So maybe something to it, I thought.

Can’t fault a guy for being hopeful. :|


not blaming you in any way, saar.

these guys, including HAL ought to know better.

HAL is back to playing games once again, especially the ex-chairman who is definitely into some top quality stuff. (pun intended)

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9467
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Jan 2019 22:43

If anything mig29 will be one to get them. Is there not some proposal for it earlier?

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3572
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Jan 2019 22:50

chetak wrote:
not blaming you in any way, saar.

these guys, including HAL ought to know better.

HAL is back to playing games once again, especially the ex-chairman who is definitely into some top quality stuff. (pun intended)


I know, Chetak ji. The last time I had real good stuff was in college which I shared with the girl who became my wife. We all do crazy things when we’re on it. LOL

AdityaM
BRFite
Posts: 1921
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 23 Jan 2019 22:57

In relation to the above tweets, is ‪@avarakai ‬one of us?

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3572
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Jan 2019 01:14

Yagnasri wrote:If anything mig29 will be one to get them. Is there not some proposal for it earlier?


There had been a lot of talk and speculation of using a Fulcrum as an in-flight testbed but I don’t recall anything about the MiG-29 being in line for the Kaveri as an option. The MiG is an old platform, other than the 29K for the IN, there will be no new orders for the plane.

With the Rafale, we are in line for future orders. So a Kaveri option while not likely will be probably more feasible than the MiG-29 because of its brighter future.

That said, the Kaveri would likely to be tested first on a MiG-29 than Rafale. I don’t see the IAF giving up a precious Rafale for testing.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2019 02:19

No Saar, even Kaveri on MiG-29 will not work. See diameter below....

Kaveri engine

Code: Select all

Length: 137.4 in (348.99 cm)
Diameter: 35.8 in (90.93 cm)

F404-IN20 (Tejas engine)

Code: Select all

Length: 154 in (391 cm)
Diameter: 35 in (89 cm)

RD-33 (MiG-29 engine)

Code: Select all

Length: 166.50 in (422.91 cm)
Diameter: 40.94 in (103.99 cm)

M88 (Rafale engine)

Code: Select all

Length: 139.3 in (353.8 cm)
Diameter: 27.4 in (69.6 cm)

If someone can advise how Snecma managed to squeeze a GE F404 turbofan onto the first Rafale prototype, I would be grateful. Because the first Rafale prototype flew with a F404-GE-400 engine. Perhaps the diameter size is similar to the M88?

Added Later: I checked the diameter size of the F404-GE-400. It is 35 inches onlee.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3572
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Jan 2019 02:37

I don’t think you need to have exact dimensional matches, Admiral. Otherwise, we’d never see testbeds taking on engines with new dimensions!

The RD-33 is both longer and wider than the Kaveri so there would be ample space. I imagine that bracing the thing would be an issue. It must it must be easier than taking in a bigger engine.

If the Rafale prototype was able to accomodate the F404 then the Rafale should be able to accept the Kaveri too since it is shorter but of the same width.

Aren’t planes designed for a particular class of engines? Not to a specific engine? Kaveri, F404 and RD-33 are of the same medium class (unlike say the F-100 or AL-31 which are heavy class.)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2019 05:52

I will buy the argument (reluctantly) of bracing a smaller diameter sized engine in a larger engine bay. What I cannot understand is how one can fit a larger diameter sized engine in a smaller engine bay.

We need some engine gurus to chime in here.

But till then (as someone once said) ---> If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52586
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 24 Jan 2019 06:45

Hari Seldon in Foundation!!!
No you cant fit a larger diameter in a smaller diameter engine bay.
So whoever was tweeting that stuff was smoking double distilled stuff.
And chetak pointed it out in this page.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52586
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 24 Jan 2019 06:51

BTW when the Tejas TD planes were being design ed with F404 there were queries on how will Kaveri fit?
All this in 1998 time frame.
And people pooh poohed them as naysayers not supportive of indigenous development.
Now Kaveri will fit into Rafale engine bay.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2019 08:38

ramana wrote:Hari Seldon in Foundation!!!
No you cant fit a larger diameter in a smaller diameter engine bay.
So whoever was tweeting that stuff was smoking double distilled stuff.
And chetak pointed it out in this page.

Ramana-ji, that is what logic tells me as well.

But how does one reconcile the fact that the Rafale A flew with a F404-GE-400 engine in 1986?

Was the engine bay diameter larger in the Rafale A (prototype) than in the production variants (Rafale C/B/M)?

Diameter difference between F404-GE-400 engine and the M88 engine is 7.6 inches! What kind of jadoo did Dassault do?

In airframe design, adding or removing 7.6++ inches to an engine bay diameter has implications no?

A Deshmukh
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 14:24

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby A Deshmukh » 24 Jan 2019 10:34

design and build a UAV just to test the Kaveri......jmt

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3507
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Jan 2019 10:44

ramana wrote:I click on this thread hopefully to hear significant progress with Kaveri.
All I hear is 'should' and 'would'.

Nowadays defence reporters are sounding like wish list promoters.
When do they report what is happening?

Spot on sir, took the words of my mouth..kuch to news chahiye

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19312
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Jan 2019 12:21

Cain Marko wrote:
ramana wrote:I click on this thread hopefully to hear significant progress with Kaveri.
All I hear is 'should' and 'would'.

Nowadays defence reporters are sounding like wish list promoters.
When do they report what is happening?

Spot on sir, took the words of my mouth..kuch to news chahiye


most of them benefit financially by pushing a very specific position or point of view.

rrao
BRFite
Posts: 112
Joined: 13 Feb 2007 22:17

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby rrao » 25 Jan 2019 13:26

Poofed.

MOD NOTE- Dont post trash like this. Consider it a soft warning.

hemant_sai
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 13 Dec 2018 12:13

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby hemant_sai » 25 Jan 2019 19:12

I am another wish maker like https://mobile.twitter.com/AdvaidhyaT/s ... 0603425792, But one thing must be certain that Kaveri production contract should not go to HAL alone. Fortunately BharatForge & TASL has already started capability building in jet engine production. In-fact I strongly believe that if BF/TASL is involved now, things will happen sooner than 2020. Sometimes I feel Kaveri has become as sacred as Ganga for IAF revolution.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2019 00:48

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098153574410924032 ----> Pity to report no major progress on the Kaveri. The struggle towards airworthiness continues, while the partnership with Safran Engines (part of Rafale offsets) remains in a tech evaluation stage. Also, Kaveri won’t power the AMCA, the team confirms.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2350
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 21 Feb 2019 00:54

Kaveri won't power LCA or AMCA.

So what is it planning to power? Either we fund it properly or shut it down.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52586
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Feb 2019 01:22

nam wrote:Kaveri won't power LCA or AMCA.

So what is it planning to power? Either we fund it properly or shut it down.


nam, a large chunk of Rafale offset money is to create a jet engine and its production facility.
Its long term. Patience.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11084
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 21 Feb 2019 04:56

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098332296044638209
Work on integrating the Kaveri low-bypass turbofan with a LCA test vehicle is underway. Expect demonstration flights to take place in the near future. But these will be for demonstration purposes only.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3572
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 21 Feb 2019 05:16

Gagan wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098332296044638209
Work on integrating the Kaveri low-bypass turbofan with a LCA test vehicle is underway. Expect demonstration flights to take place in the near
future. But these will be for demonstration purposes only.

Even for demonstration, this is wonderful news!

Wow, like someone opened the floodgates on good news today.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 976
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Feb 2019 05:24

What other good news has come about today sir?

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3572
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 21 Feb 2019 05:55

^^^ FOC and now finally the Kaveri on the LCA is a tsunami of good news to me :)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2019 06:24

Two polar opposite tweets on the Kaveri turbofan on the same day. I am going to with Saurav Jha.

Good find Gagan!

SriKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1754
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 21 Feb 2019 06:52

Gagan wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098332296044638209
Work on integrating the Kaveri low-bypass turbofan with a LCA test vehicle is underway. Expect demonstration flights to take place in the near future. But these will be for demonstration purposes only.

IMVHO, this is bigger than FOC of LCA. The darn thing just needs to fly and the engineers will prove their mettle. I only hope 'near future' is this year and not 2 or 3 years out.

'LCA test vehicle': which LCA airframe was diverted for this...? Maybe one of the LSPs has been diverted? Or a brand new one from production line that's not going to a squadron? Is there any LSP that's not flying (accumulating hours) lately?
Last edited by SriKumar on 21 Feb 2019 07:03, edited 1 time in total.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2019 06:58

ramana wrote:nam, a large chunk of Rafale offset money is to create a jet engine and its production facility.
Its long term. Patience.

Thank You Ramana-ji. Coming from you, that means a lot.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1173
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 21 Feb 2019 08:44

Non after burning Kaveri engine is supposed to be used for UVAV.

Also I feel it can be used for LIFT LCA which is being contemplated by HAL

sajaym
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 09:11

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby sajaym » 21 Feb 2019 12:22

Gyan wrote:Non after burning Kaveri engine is supposed to be used for UVAV.


If that is the case, then I hope they can do the test without putting a Bakra inside the Kaveri-powered LCA. That way they can proof the engine and also proof the guidance system for an unmanned version of the LCA down the road.

Gyan wrote: Also I feel it can be used for LIFT LCA which is being contemplated by HAL


A lot, lot, lot of testing will be required before this combo (LIFT LCA + Kaveri engine), can be sold to/accepted by any customer.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Feb 2019 20:02

^^ Probably gonna start a program by some other name.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19312
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 22 Feb 2019 10:21

Livefist Verified account @livefist

It’s official: India’s Kaveri jet engine won’t power the future AMCA fighter or the Medium Weight Fighter, confirms @DRDO_India. The team does hope to see it power an aircraft and spin off a marine engine version though. #AeroIndia2019


watch the video

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098432193360248832

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52586
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Feb 2019 11:46

Both AMCA and MWF require higher performance than Tejas for which Kaveri was designed.
So it can't power either plane.

So was Livefist being DDM?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52586
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Feb 2019 11:47

The Kaveri once developed still can replace the GE engines over life of the Tejas airframe.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests