Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby pankajs » 22 Feb 2019 11:54

ramana wrote:
nam wrote:Kaveri won't power LCA or AMCA.

So what is it planning to power? Either we fund it properly or shut it down.


nam, a large chunk of Rafale offset money is to create a jet engine and its production facility.
Its long term. Patience.

Right!

A couple of further thoughts.
1. What is imperative has to be perused no matter what the cost. A future power cannot depend on the others for ever.
2. The project has been de-linked. Let it not become a hurdle in the path of the other projects that are important on their own.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2019 12:20

I wonder what they meant by saying the JV with safran is at "tech eval stage"!! Rafales are getting ready for delivery and we are still nowhere on this offset project?

and its not like we have a choice of french vendors under dassault ecosystem for this - safran is the one and only option.

both sides need to get cracking on this. if they already admitting defeat and sayting AMCA which at best will have first flight in 2025 cannot get a new hot section & materials kaveri, in 5 years, then we are done and should close the project. put them to work designing engines for turboprop UAVs and small turbojets for UCAVs and missiles - atleast those will do some good than this never ending loop on kaveri

one way or another this it it - the last chance, or remain tied to us/french/russian engines forever. "reliance" or "L&T" is not going to be coming up with a fighter engine.

atleast keep a goal to power the Tejas and future AJT model of Tejas. make a non afterburner model of it and reengine the Hawk also - a good vehicle to try different ideas and brits will not mind us tinkering with its dated airframe.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 22 Feb 2019 13:14

Singha wrote:I wonder what they meant by saying the JV with safran is at "tech eval stage"!! Rafales are getting ready for delivery and we are still nowhere on this offset project?

and its not like we have a choice of french vendors under dassault ecosystem for this - safran is the one and only option.

both sides need to get cracking on this. if they already admitting defeat and sayting AMCA which at best will have first flight in 2025 cannot get a new hot section & materials kaveri, in 5 years, then we are done and should close the project. put them to work designing engines for turboprop UAVs and small turbojets for UCAVs and missiles - atleast those will do some good than this never ending loop on kaveri

one way or another this it it - the last chance, or remain tied to us/french/russian engines forever. "reliance" or "L&T" is not going to be coming up with a fighter engine.

atleast keep a goal to power the Tejas and future AJT model of Tejas. make a non afterburner model of it and reengine the Hawk also - a good vehicle to try different ideas and brits will not mind us tinkering with its dated airframe.


somebody was already talking of "work share", meaning they expect garam banna banna halwa to be delivered hot and steaming on a fancy plate and then they expect to be fed lavishly in terms of IP.

Discussion of work share implies some sort of technical equality and intellectual contribution on an approximately similar level from both sides. It also means that the dominant partner would be the one transferring or using the IP to make modifications, and not a baboo(n) like setup and entitlement that you do the work and I will be the boss and watch type of management set up.

Someone may have seriously misunderstood even the basic idea of offsets

Offset means that the goras will fight tooth and nail to ensure that nothing of value will be delivered. Boeing offsets resulted in some bare metallic boxes being made in India, just like what the local trunk wallas make in UP.

Folks may have just discovered exactly what safran means by "assistance" for the kaveri

No one will part with their family silver just because some colored guys came up with a crazy idea of offsets.

IIRC, there were discussions of kaveri flying with an already developed and available core that was somehow "suitable" for transplantation with some minor jugad.

The core means, among other things, the SCBs are being targeted right off the bat, by our guys and this will certainly not make safran dance with joy.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby mridulmm » 22 Feb 2019 21:35

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/109 ... 74464?s=19

Kaveri engine project will be closed before a successor is officially unveiled. #IAH


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/109 ... 07808?s=19
Sources say the Kaveri engine program will be closed before a new project is officially unveiled. Which is why they want to do a few demonstration flights on a Tejas test vehicle that has an intake which can accommodate the higher mass flow of the Kaveri vis a vis the F404. #IAH
Last edited by mridulmm on 22 Feb 2019 21:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 24 Feb 2019 01:35

The project should be continued till the original goals set in 1989 are fulfilled:

1. 52/81 KN thrust
2. 1100 kg weight
3. Flightworthy. (500h, Screech, afterburner, MTBO).

If cannot power next gen aircraft, so be it, but let research pls be continued, for the ultimate goal of import substitution/ tech indegenisation.

The DRDO has been announcing the start of flight testing since 2009, but have not gone ahead and done it.

This was after they declared successful FTB tests, which precede airframe integration and testing.

It is criminal that they completed FTB in 2011-13 timeline, but have still not integrated and tested on airframe.

My CT is this has been blocked, as airframe integration and 500 h of flight tests precede production.

Even if a flightworthy Kaveri acheives only 71 KN, there will soon be pressure to stop importing entire ecosystem of engines under this thrust class (many exist, for Hawk, Jaguar, Mig 21 engines and spares).

A simpler follow on project for turboprops will rid us of foreign supplied engines for An-32, C-130, Do-228, and turboshaft based Mi-17.

Turboprops are simpler to engineer, with less demanding hot sections and thrust ratings. A working Kaveri would be a boon here.

Not to mention low hanging fruit like desi Jet engine starters, materials and alloys for compressor/turbine of imported engine ( import substitution), engine accessories like jet pumps, FADEC controllers, pipes and tubes, etc.

Thereby lies the threat of the Kaveri.

The DRDO should have fought tooth and nail to flight qualify Kaveri for these reasons.

They are tamely folding over, without a wimper, and this is suspicious on their part.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 24 Feb 2019 01:53

By import substitution, I mean the following.

The IAF jet engine has any 7-8 modules, and life of 6000h, say, with 3 overhauls/2000 hours.

Let's assume India does entire engine overhaul in-house. So no foreign vendor for assembly/test.

So, the scene unfolds like this: after 2000 h of Rolls Royce engine life, change compressor and turbine module, re- assemble as per standards, balance the rotor masses ,send to engine test bed.

The turbine / compressor module imported from Rolls Royce may cost 1 million euro.

30 engines overhauled a year is 30 million euros straight off from the IAF budget.

An indegenous alternative will be cheaper and sanction proof.

And don't worry abt patents and IPR, India owns the planes and can do what it wants with them, this is the law I understand.

Refusal of OEM to certify plane/engine can be managed by using alternate certifying agency like Cemilac or ones abroad.

Re engining planes or sourcing spares from non approved vendors is common enough phenomenon.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Neela » 24 Feb 2019 04:15

Any updates on the HTFE and HTSE ?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 24 Feb 2019 04:35

That's ok - a professor once told me - declare victory and move on! So mate the Kaveri with the LCA and keep that combo flying to gain knowledge. Use the same team in the new venture so that the knowledge is maintained.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby titash » 24 Feb 2019 05:25

The solution may ultimately lie in building a plane around the engine and not vice versa.

Surely we can come up with a UAV/UCAV with 10% sub-optimal performance that validates the flightworthiness, operational/supply chain challenges, and reliability of the Kaveri over 10+ years.

Even better...go for a Rockwell B1-B style bomber with 4 afterburning Kaveri. Lots of folks in occupied Lahore & occupied Lhasa will crap in their pants and continue to do so for a very long time.

For Reference on the B1-B:
Powerplant: 4 × General Electric F101-GE-102 augmented turbofans
Dry thrust: 17,390 lbf (77.4 kN) each; Thrust with afterburner: 30,780 lbf (136.92 kN) each

Inshallah!!!
Image

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 24 Feb 2019 13:37

Questions for the ones who have an idea how this thing works...

As we heard a report or a rumour that Kaveri engine will be used for Technical demonstration.
- Will this happen with a SP or an existing LSP be used ?
- If there is no opportunity to trouble the SP line and all LSPs are under use for getting to the FOC-II or IOC for Mk1A, do we build ourselves another LSP. If its not called an LSP then what is it called. TD-3 ?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Feb 2019 15:52

India can now quickly build bigger jets, says DRDO chief
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 33937.html

Also, India is looking to take a technological leap. The DRDO is now in talks with an international partner to make a jet engine of 110 Kn power. So far, no such engine exists anywhere in the world. “We are open to working on this and are in talks with partners for joint development,” said Dr Reddy, adding this engine could be used on future jets.

On being asked about the Kaveri engine, Dr Reddy said it would be used on UAVs. “It is not being shelved.” Notably, Kaveri’s thrust is about 75 Kn and 90 Kn is desired to power a fighter jet.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 20:13

Khalsa wrote:Questions for the ones who have an idea how this thing works...

As we heard a report or a rumour that Kaveri engine will be used for Technical demonstration.
- Will this happen with a SP or an existing LSP be used ?
- If there is no opportunity to trouble the SP line and all LSPs are under use for getting to the FOC-II or IOC for Mk1A, do we build ourselves another LSP. If its not called an LSP then what is it called. TD-3 ?

Khalsa, it will happen on a LSP and not a SP.

No LSPs are not being used for IOC for Mk1A. There is no Mk1A right now, so that issue does not arise.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 20:14

mridulmm wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098830497520574464?s=19

Kaveri engine project will be closed before a successor is officially unveiled. #IAH


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/109 ... 07808?s=19
Sources say the Kaveri engine program will be closed before a new project is officially unveiled. Which is why they want to do a few demonstration flights on a Tejas test vehicle that has an intake which can accommodate the higher mass flow of the Kaveri vis a vis the F404. #IAH

Very good news. I want this engine to fly. Give lots of takleef to many.

Hopefully this will happen soon and a new program will start. I will start a new thread, when that happens.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 20:18

SaiK wrote:India can now quickly build bigger jets, says DRDO chief
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 33937.html

Also, India is looking to take a technological leap. The DRDO is now in talks with an international partner to make a jet engine of 110 Kn power. So far, no such engine exists anywhere in the world. “We are open to working on this and are in talks with partners for joint development,” said Dr Reddy, adding this engine could be used on future jets.

On being asked about the Kaveri engine, Dr Reddy said it would be used on UAVs. “It is not being shelved.” Notably, Kaveri’s thrust is about 75 Kn and 90 Kn is desired to power a fighter jet.

So that is the new project that is starting - a 110 kN engine and that translates to 24,729 lbs.

I asked google chacha :) and I got this website ---> https://www.convertunits.com/from/kN/to/pounds

And that article is wrong. There are engines more powerful than that :) DDM, at its best! General Electric's F110-GE-132 turbofan, is rated at a maximum thrust of 32,500 lb (144.6 kN). It powers the UAE's F-16 Block 60.

I am happy to hear Dr Reddy stating that the Kaveri engine is not being shelved. Just goes to show that when the engine was thought of, a maximum thrust of 75 kN was considered sufficient. Obviously that is no longer the case. I am not an engine expert, but I am assuming the Kabini core - due to the present alloys - cannot achieve 90 kN. Thus a new program has to commence.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 24 Feb 2019 20:42

dinesh_kimar wrote:By import substitution, I mean the following.

The IAF jet engine has any 7-8 modules, and life of 6000h, say, with 3 overhauls/2000 hours.

Let's assume India does entire engine overhaul in-house. So no foreign vendor for assembly/test.

So, the scene unfolds like this: after 2000 h of Rolls Royce engine life, change compressor and turbine module, re- assemble as per standards, balance the rotor masses ,send to engine test bed.

The turbine / compressor module imported from Rolls Royce may cost 1 million euro.

30 engines overhauled a year is 30 million euros straight off from the IAF budget.

An indegenous alternative will be cheaper and sanction proof.

And don't worry abt patents and IPR, India owns the planes and can do what it wants with them, this is the law I understand.

Refusal of OEM to certify plane/engine can be managed by using alternate certifying agency like Cemilac or ones abroad.

Re engining planes or sourcing spares from non approved vendors is common enough phenomenon.


You can not even modify HAL delivered aircraft without the HAL guys showing up with their tounges hanging out and claiming big money because they are the "design authority" for any modification on the aircraft.

All the work is yours, as are all the modkit developments, design effort spanning months, testing and yet, there they are.

Been there and done that many times and my bosses paid, "to keep the peace".

The whole operation ran like a mafia shakedown.

later we started to do work without the involvement of HAL as well as CEMILAC and cleared all inspections in house, flight tested with our own guys and got the approvals from our own authorities.

That requires authorities with big hairy stones because many of the mods were flight critical.

The complaints went right up to the ministry level and that's where the big stones really came into play. Such guys simply cannot be forgotten and they broke the mold after such guys passed on.

what we have today are mere pygmies and many politicians in uniform, hungry for post retirement jobs and the safe settlement of utterly useless kith and kin, which ambitions the PSUs know very well how to oblige.

Don't talk of laws about which you know nothing.

The goras will eat you alive after flaying your skin first.

We neither have the economic clout of the hans nor their chutzpah for theft.

IP violations and theft carry huge damages and are not decided in any Indian court, and the vengeful goras will take extreme pleasure in taking you to court and then to the cleaners and not just for reasons of IP alone.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 24 Feb 2019 21:26

^ Saar, good points to ponder, no doubt, on how India has been taken to cleaners.

But the law remains the same - owner can do what he wants.

1. Mig 29 modified by BRD, at 1/100th the cost of Russian OEM. Russians did not sue us, as we own the planes.

2. Sea Harrier and Rolls Royce Pegasus LUSH upgrade - done by Naval Station Goa. No negotiation with BaE or ROLLS ROYCE at all. All done by IN-HAL.
No sueing by British. UK

Also,

3. FAA regulations on Modified aircraft lay the onus of certification on owner, not design authority.

4. The Jaguar Hydraulic system mod by HAL, Brits did not sue , but copied our modification.
Being Brits, they would have sued us for modifying it, but cannot.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 24 Feb 2019 21:34

From Saurav Jha twitter : A 110 KN class low-bypass turbofan engine will be developed by DRDO possibly with foreign support for the AMCA programme.

IMHO right thing should have been done long time by taking project away from GTRE.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 24 Feb 2019 21:37

Khalsa wrote:Questions for the ones who have an idea how this thing works...

As we heard a report or a rumour that Kaveri engine will be used for Technical demonstration.
- Will this happen with a SP or an existing LSP be used ?
- If there is no opportunity to trouble the SP line and all LSPs are under use for getting to the FOC-II or IOC for Mk1A, do we build ourselves another LSP. If its not called an LSP then what is it called. TD-3 ?


who decides the criteria that will be used for Technical demonstration??.

The guys who make the engine or the guys who are expected to fly it??

I suspect that the argument will be biased strongly on the side of the guys who are laying their lives on the line and these guys will also have the final say.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 24 Feb 2019 21:39

krishna_krishna wrote:From Saurav Jha twitter : A 110 KN class low-bypass turbofan engine will be developed by DRDO possibly with foreign support for the AMCA programme.

IMHO right thing should have been done long time by taking project away from GTRE.


Back to the issue of the family silver once again.

Any inputs on the famous safran offset obligations, arising from the rafale deal??

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 22:18

chetak wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:From Saurav Jha twitter : A 110 KN class low-bypass turbofan engine will be developed by DRDO possibly with foreign support for the AMCA programme.

IMHO right thing should have been done long time by taking project away from GTRE.

Back to the issue of the family silver once again.

Any inputs on the famous safran offset obligations, arising from the rafale deal??

Saar, the Safran offset has been fulfilled. There was a lot of DDM reporting on this issue, in which even I fell victim to. Safran promised an audit on the Kaveri, which they have done. GTRE will now test that engine on a Tejas test bed. Prior to the Rafale deal, GTRE shelved the program altogether. So obviously there has been enough progress - since the Safran audit - for GTRE to conduct a flight test. And that is a good thing.

Safran said that they would have a prototype flying by Aero India 2019. That has not happened, as Aero India has come to a close. But Dr Reddy has said that the program has not been shelved and the plan is still on for the first of a number of test flights, to validate concepts.

What has come up short is the wet thrust of the engine. That was more or less expected. As the Kaveri had a wet thrust design spec of 75 kN - 81 kN which is too little for a Tejas Mk2 MWF. The F404 engine produces a maximum thrust of 78.7 kN. We will have to continue with the F404 for the Mk1 and the Mk1A and the F414 for the Mk2.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 24 Feb 2019 22:35

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Saar, good points to ponder, no doubt, on how India has been taken to cleaners.

But the law remains the same - owner can do what he wants.

1. Mig 29 modified by BRD, at 1/100th the cost of Russian OEM. Russians did not sue us, as we own the planes.

2. Sea Harrier and Rolls Royce Pegasus LUSH upgrade - done by Naval Station Goa. No negotiation with BaE or ROLLS ROYCE at all. All done by IN-HAL.
No sueing by British. UK

Also,

3. FAA regulations on Modified aircraft lay the onus of certification on owner, not design authority.

4. The Jaguar Hydraulic system mod by HAL, Brits did not sue , but copied our modification.
Being Brits, they would have sued us for modifying it, but cannot.


Dig deeper.

Once successful and britshit approved, the britshits bought the rights to use the mod.

nothing is free.

don't quote FAA regulations here, they are not applicable and are used, if at all, more as an unofficial advisory and a rough guideline.

When DGCA regulations are not applicable for the jaguar, how come FAA is?? and, BTW, don't the proud britshits have their own CAA and how come a brit military aircraft goes by the FAA when they don't go by the CAA??

The jaguar is anglo french and what of the french DGAC?? would the french accept the hegemony of the FAA on their military aircraft??

BTW, IN is not foolish to let HAL fiddle with an engine completely unknown to it, with no trained inspectors to clear the mod, HAL would not have touched it on their own.

There is/was a permanently stationed RR rep in Goa for the pegasus support and he has been there for donkey's years.

Regarding LUSH, the limited upgrade Sea Harrier (LUSH) programme upgrading the engines. At best, the mod kits would have come from the UK, bought and paid for, with work package clearly described and the gadda मजदूरी/majaduri labor work done by HAL engine div and inspected and cleared by the IN inspectors. This would have been done to reduce the overall cost of the package which would have been very much higher using britshit labor.

I bet you any money that HAL is incapable of doing such design work.

HAL could not even make a replacement radome for the harrier because they did not have the design capability and the britshits refused to part with the required design data demanded by HAL.

When the Do 228s first came to the CG, it was difficult to service and operate. Over the course of many months the CG suggested and forced Dornier to introduce many many modifications, some of which were so logical that the germans were taken aback but they also happily cooperated wherever they were convinced and did the mods free of cost.

The first time the CG accepted the HAL made Dornier 228, it was a completely, totally and disastrously humiliating, miserably shameful and absolutely pathetic experience for HAL. Nothing worked as it should have done on a brand new aircraft. It took them over two weeks to rectify, 20 odd hours of flight test and deliver to the CG's complete satisfaction and as legally enforceable and specified, contractually agreed upon delivery standards.

Mind you, this was an aircraft that had already been certified by HAL engineers, and after "flight tests" by test pilots, pronounced ready for customer acceptance in all respects.

It was the totally the CGs fault you see, because they used the same acceptance procedures that they had used in germany to accept their first few flyaway Dorniers.

Apparently, aircraft acceptance procedures in Germany and in India for the same aircraft differ enormously.

dinesh_kimar ji, let us end this discussion here.

No more from me.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 24 Feb 2019 23:21

^ good points sirjee.

You have the wealth of actual experience.

No ji, pls. :)

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Feb 2019 23:47

GTRE should also do some chinese methods of copying F414. I know it is a tough job, and that is the reason cream are posted in such orgs. If they aren't the cream of India, shove them to HAL production units, and get new folks on board! IOW, reorg

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2019 00:18

Please no xerox copying. Not just a moral/ethical issue, but xerox copying an engine puts pilots lives at risk. The Chinese have lost pilots in that manner. We do not need that. We are going to do this through blood, sweat and tears of which there is plenty. The only meagre resource is money and that is because of a lack of urgency from our leaders on this issue. There are no short cuts to success.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Feb 2019 00:21

Yes sir, when I say copy, I meant by first principles. Entire specs, methods, technology and standards. Just replicate in our ways. In the sense, all our teething problem is in just establishing that. [we don't need to go after some special engines - like we are talking now - 110kN]

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2019 00:36

I do not believe we have any issues in formulating specs. But I am assuming you mean build processes when you are referring to methods, technology and standards. We have yet to discover that magic potion and we will not be able to copy that from any OEM. We are going to have to learn that the hard way onlee.

I am assuming the 110 kN is for the AMCA. Perhaps they can incorporate that engine into the Tejas Mk2 MWF during one of her MLU upgrades in the future.

LM mocked India in the 90s and stated that the Tejas will never fly. India persevered nonetheless and at Aero India 2019, Tejas Mk1 got FOC and we are planning for Mk1A, Mk2 MWF, Tejas Sport and AMCA. Who is having the last laugh now?

Just like Tejas appeared unobtanium in the 80s and 90s, the similar is true for the Kaveri program and the new 110 kN program. I know you have the faith SaiK :)

And I know this does not matter to you, but just in case —> ignore the American apologists on BRF. They only come here to criticize & ridicule Indian programs and peddle American ones. Don’t get distracted by signal noise.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Feb 2019 00:55

I do.. but this is way too much safety-critical and advanced precision engineering that we must master. It can't be done by lethargic entities.. it is like ISRO mission complexity times raised to the power of the same complexity.

Yes, production engineering we have to giddy up!

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2019 01:09

100% agree on the ISRO analogy. India invested in ISRO because there was a national need to do so. And it has achieved tremendous success. India invested in the Arihant program, because there was a strategic need to do so. And it has been a great success. So it is not that we have a lack of brain power or will power to do it. There was a vision at the political level which translated into money which translated into a viable product. There is no urgency or need for an engine program at the political level and thus the net result is there for everyone to see.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Feb 2019 01:11

SaiK wrote:Yes sir, when I say copy, I meant by first principles. Entire specs, methods, technology and standards. Just replicate in our ways. In the sense, all our teething problem is in just establishing that. [we don't need to go after some special engines - like we are talking now - 110kN]


SaiK saar,

+108

The first Shenyang MiG copies had a total life of 150 hours because the ruski metallurgy on the stolen MiGs was a total mystery to the hans and yet they managed to copy, produce and fly it, airframe, engine, instruments, sensors and all, the whole shebang, in fact.

Of course, it helped enormously that they were allowed by the state to adapt some advanced Confucian methods of management techniques and every now and then shoot a few sorry assed design and other engineers who did not perform up to the mark expected. According to the hans, it worked wonders for motivation then and as it still does even now. You know, of course, that Confucius was a very wise man.

We should have done exactly the very same thing, copy, I mean, and not shoot sorry assed design engineers, no matter how badly they deserved it.

In hindsight, we have had unrestricted access to many types of engines/aircraft, from many different countries, established overhaul and repair facilities, which valuable opportunities were never afforded to the hans during their early days of copying err... experimentation.

Even now it is not too late.

here is an example of the ancient aeronautical han jugad

The Chinese also built a two-seat trainer version of the MiG-17, designated the Chengdu JJ-5 (Jianjiji Jiaolianji - Fighter Trainer - FT-5),from 1968, by combining the two-seat cockpit of the MiG-15UTI, the VK-1A engine of the J-5, and the fuselage of the J-5A. All internal armament was deleted and a single Nudelman-Richter NR-23 23 mm cannon was carried in a ventral pack.


Is there something wrong with our design engineers, or what??

or are they normally shy and retiring types, given to eating thayir sadam in solitary splendor, whilst silently contemplating the mysteries of the aeronautical universe over multiple shots of hot spicy pepper rasam before going home, on time, and doing respectful pranam to their honored pitashree/matashree/dharam patni ??

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 25 Feb 2019 01:28

Rakesh wrote:LM mocked India in the 90s and stated that the Tejas will never fly. India persevered nonetheless and at Aero India 2019, Tejas Mk1 got FOC and we are planning for Mk1A, Mk2 MWF, Tejas Sport and AMCA. Who is having the last laugh now?


Their backstabbing while confiscating the CLAW equipment will be my reason never to buy their old wine in new bottle.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Feb 2019 01:36

Rakesh wrote:100% agree on the ISRO analogy. India invested in ISRO because there was a national need to do so. And it has achieved tremendous success. India invested in the Arihant program, because there was a strategic need to do so. And it has been a great success. So it is not that we have a lack of brain power or will power to do it. There was a vision at the political level which translated into money which translated into a viable product. There is no urgency or need for an engine program at the political level and thus the net result is there for everyone to see.


Rakesh, saar,

Agreed that ISRO had big investment but no more than DRDO when seen from a global perspective. DRDO investments are spread over many organizations and so may be difficult to track and quantify.

The very great difference is that ISRO has no man in the loop whereas DRDO does and therein lies the rub.

Their design philosophies, as well as their institutional outlook, is colored by this one major difference and that translates into building in tremendous reliability by design as well as reliable fail safe capabilities into their systems. The risk analysis capability at ISRO is much more complex as well as much more advanced than DRDOs.

Yes ISRO has had failures from which they have learned and their failure analyses are always a synergistically collective, genuinely participative and a hugely collaborative process whereas DRDO generally files a report and moves on.

ISRO has advanced metallurgical capabilities and knowledge, mostly developed in house, over years of painstaking research. I agree that their applications are different but no less critical or less vital than what DRDO does.

The DEA is no less in comparison to ISRO.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 25 Feb 2019 01:43

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Saar, good points to ponder, no doubt, on how India has been taken to cleaners.

But the law remains the same - owner can do what he wants.

1. Mig 29 modified by BRD, at 1/100th the cost of Russian OEM. Russians did not sue us, as we own the planes.

2. Sea Harrier and Rolls Royce Pegasus LUSH upgrade - done by Naval Station Goa. No negotiation with BaE or ROLLS ROYCE at all. All done by IN-HAL.
No sueing by British. UK

Also,

3. FAA regulations on Modified aircraft lay the onus of certification on owner, not design authority.

4. The Jaguar Hydraulic system mod by HAL, Brits did not sue , but copied our modification.
Being Brits, they would have sued us for modifying it, but cannot.


One of the things I hate about this forum is this kind of naive economics. You're comparing all-in cost of purchasing from a vendor to that of govt enterprise. Latter's numbers don't include salaries, pensions, equity, besides warranties,etc.

I'll give you a good comparison. Russians got over zealous with the first 2 MKI prototypes with one of them crashing at the Paris airshow. They had to build another one. HAL, despite being a listed company, will be doing no such thing for the crashed one from last year.

There are hidden costs that you can't begin to fathom.

No wonder Kalyani is complaining about ATAGS cost capped almost to same as Dhanush where OFB gets paid everything, other than material cost ,on the side. Same story with private shipyards requiring to compete with state yards

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Feb 2019 01:56

JTull wrote:
Rakesh wrote:LM mocked India in the 90s and stated that the Tejas will never fly. India persevered nonetheless and at Aero India 2019, Tejas Mk1 got FOC and we are planning for Mk1A, Mk2 MWF, Tejas Sport and AMCA. Who is having the last laugh now?


Their backstabbing while confiscating the CLAW equipment will be my reason never to buy their old wine in new bottle.


JTull, ji,

It was not backstabbing, it was fear.

These are the guys who foresaw India's rise in those days, tried to prevent it and failed.

Its't that exactly why the amerikis also hobbled nambi narayanan and tried to sink ISRO??

Isn't it why they hobbled our nuke program??

They saw things in us then that we ourselves did not have the divya-drishti (दिव्य दृष्टि), or intuitive perception or cognition to see, no??

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2019 02:45

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099523796900298752 ---> Major military industrial complexes across the world have become very concerned after realizing that the Tejas program is being expanded. They know that not only is the Indian gravy train going to end, but a new competitor will emerge.

In response to the above is this tweet below....

https://twitter.com/Raksta2/status/1099613364353929222 ---> They can still throttle the Tejas because it relies upon a foreign engine.

And Saurav Jha's classic response below....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099617494648512512 ---> They won't. Because it will be the surest way to ensure that India develops its own engine.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2019 02:47

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099636608268029952 ---> For the development of the proposed new 110 KN jet engine, an empowered committee should be created which will sit atop the development process and take regular reviews. And the entire project should be in mission mode.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099638483818184705 ---> A whole range of air-breathing engines from low-bypass turbofans to ramjets need to be developed indigenously. And it is high time serious money, resources and leadership was put into this.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Feb 2019 02:56

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099636608268029952 ---> For the development of the proposed new 110 KN jet engine, an empowered committee should be created which will sit atop the development process and take regular reviews. And the entire project should be in mission mode.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099638483818184705 ---> A whole range of air-breathing engines from low-bypass turbofans to ramjets need to be developed indigenously. And it is high time serious money, resources and leadership was put into this.


And like I have been saying for the longest time, these resources and leadership cannot come from just any one single Indian organization but it has to come from a pool of related Indian organizations.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 25 Feb 2019 03:15

SaiK wrote:I do.. but this is way too much safety-critical and advanced precision engineering that we must master. It can't be done by lethargic entities.. it is like ISRO mission complexity times raised to the power of the same complexity.

Yes, production engineering we have to giddy up!


Boss , India is a country that manufactures cryogenic rocket engines and designed and developed a new one .. would anyone have believed it 10 years back?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 25 Feb 2019 03:17

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099523796900298752 ---> Major military industrial complexes across the world have become very concerned after realizing that the Tejas program is being expanded. They know that not only is the Indian gravy train going to end, but a new competitor will emerge

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099617494648512512 ---> They won't. Because it will be the surest way to ensure that India develops its own engine.


:mrgreen:

a good example with the desi Meteor right in the horizon ., MBDA thankfully refused to integrate it with the Tejas :mrgreen:

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 25 Feb 2019 13:20

Rakesh wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Questions for the ones who have an idea how this thing works...

As we heard a report or a rumour that Kaveri engine will be used for Technical demonstration.
- Will this happen with a SP or an existing LSP be used ?
- If there is no opportunity to trouble the SP line and all LSPs are under use for getting to the FOC-II or IOC for Mk1A, do we build ourselves another LSP. If its not called an LSP then what is it called. TD-3 ?

Khalsa, it will happen on a LSP and not a SP.

No LSPs are not being used for IOC for Mk1A. There is no Mk1A right now, so that issue does not arise.


Thank you my good admiral.
By the way amazing work on the first pages of these threads starting up
Kudos

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 25 Feb 2019 13:45

I think the Admiral is due a promo.
Admiral I dropped u an email. No response?


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