Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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dinesh_kimar
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 10 Apr 2019 21:59

^ Saar, in this case it was Carbon silicate based composite (CSi/CSi) for A/B flaps.

It is more heat resistant to 1400 deg approx, and lighter than previously used metal flap.

TBC previously used not required anymore, for this component. (Thermal barrier coating).

(Density was 2.5 g/cc vs. Nickel alloy at 9.7 g/cc).

Also, apparently a class of composites where certain deformation properties improve with temperature (creep resistance?).

So if they qualify the material at room temperature, the job is done, as properties at high temperatures only improve.

I dunno much abt the subject.

The main learning for me was nickle was heavier than steel.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 12 Apr 2019 23:09

maitya wrote:I think he's alluding to ....

edit: never mind.
is there any way I could get in touch with you?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 May 2019 18:43

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1131783236957327360 ---> And please, don't talk about 'joint development' with the United States. The experience of DTTI shows America is interested only in one-way 'trade' i.e. arms exports to India. While Ash Carter was Defence Secretary there was still a mild probability of some decent joint development, not anymore.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1131785966350323712 ---> Especially, not for aero-engines. The India-US Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology is an abysmal failure, with Washington flatly refusing to share any technology related to the core.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1131400493207474178 ---> Irrespective of who comes out top at the end of today. the following are a must for India:

1. National mission mode projects for the development of 98 KN & 130 KN Class low-bypass turbofans (jet engines) for powering medium & heavy fighters.

2. GaN & HgCdTe fabs.

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Re: BRF Project: India's Kaveri Engine Saga

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Jun 2019 15:17

Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
Slowly but surely all the pieces for creating a flight worthy low-bypass turbofan (jet engine) are coming together. Obviously, the usual 'Indian style' hurdles remain (now, don't ask me to elaborate), but for the first time in years something might just come of it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SJha1618/sta ... 5592025089

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby gaurav.p » 28 Jun 2019 20:24

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1144474463297126400 --> Indian Rare Earths Limited has developed a formulation for Yttrium Stabilized Zirconia & Lanthanum Zirconate, which has been used to create bi-layer thermal barrier coatings (LZ over YSZ) for jet engine parts. Test material has already been sent to HAL. Results are encouraging.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1144478225592025089 --> Slowly but surely all the pieces for creating a flight worthy low-bypass turbofan (jet engine) are coming together. Obviously, the usual 'Indian style' hurdles remain (now, don't ask me to elaborate), but for the first time in years something might just come of it.

modi jee we don't need to repeat a marut for the tejas/amca. modi jee are you listening, plz listen to sjha saheb...

Noob q = are these TBC have a similar application like these? https://aquantumofmind.wordpress.com/20 ... ndia-2015/

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 29 Jun 2019 01:35

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1131783236957327360 ---> And please, don't talk about 'joint development' with the United States. The experience of DTTI shows America is interested only in one-way 'trade' i.e. arms exports to India. While Ash Carter was Defence Secretary there was still a mild probability of some decent joint development, not anymore.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1131785966350323712 ---> Especially, not for aero-engines. The India-US Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology is an abysmal failure, with Washington flatly refusing to share any technology related to the core.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1131400493207474178 ---> Irrespective of who comes out top at the end of today. the following are a must for India:

1. National mission mode projects for the development of 98 KN & 130 KN Class low-bypass turbofans (jet engines) for powering medium & heavy fighters.

2. GaN & HgCdTe fabs.

So, effectively and as long expected, the much touted India - US relationship has no core :)

Its merely a bania type transactional business deal with those guys leveraging the hell out of the so called relationship, no

and if push came to shove, they would, as usual, sanction the hell out of us or simply embargo any and all spares and support deliveries.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 30 Jun 2019 20:35

Its foolish for us to expect ToT. No one parts with their crown jewels.

The only time we got real ToT was Type 209/1500 submarines and FH-77B 155 mm howitzers because both Germany and Sweden were peripheral players in the arms business and really needed the Indian deals.

Kaveri is achievable domestically provided we make it a multi-agency multi disciplinary-program similar to ATAGS program with DRDO as a lead integrator and work packages given to private and public sector entities. Private entities like L&T or Tata SED can hire lateral talent (specifically NRIs who are working in aerospace companies worldwide or teaching in universities) without getting into office politics of GTRE labs who're scared of laterals outranking them.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 01 Jul 2019 08:43

Regarding Post by Rohit Vats ji in IAF thread abt Maruti re-heat engine:

The GTRE delivered a 29 KN version with reheat for the project. The thrust was sufficient to transform Maruti to it's full potential.

The main drawbacks expressed by GTRE director AVM Chaudhary were :

1. Area ruling problem mentioned in RV's post and blog.

2. He did not trust Kurt Tank , said Marut's aerodynamics were suspect, esp. the tail plane located absolutely on bottom of fuselage. (He had done his Master's in Aerodynamics and Propulsion from UK, had deep misgivings abt testing a wooden glider model of supersonic aircraft some 75 times, no one else used this route , and for what benefit ?)

The AVM founded GTRE, and delivered many products such as India's first working jet in 1961, turbocharger for Arjun, the GTX-37 with 66 KN and the reheated Marut engines.

The Kaveri started after he retired, and new director took over. He felt it was not the right step for India to take for self sufficiency and indigenisation.
He had 3 proposals for engine development after looking into resources avbl: (all scrapped the day he retired !)

1. HF 24 with a 2000 deg. K reheat version of 703 , with 46% thrust increase . Role:IAF tactical air superiority aircraft.

2.GTX- Adour with GTX LP part and Adour HP parts ( agreed to by Rolls Royce) and a new afterburner.Role:IAF DPSA aircraft.

3. A GTX Snecma engine to re engine Mig 21. ( A licensed ATAR 9K50 with GTX components, agreed by Russia).Role: IAF air superiority aircraft.

Also, the good AVM built up the first technicians from GTRE by importing carpenters, utensil makers, box makers , ironmongery and blacksmiths and fitters from Kanpur. A practical man, as advocated by our BRF stalwarts - Pentaiah , Chola and others.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 01 Jul 2019 08:55

One of the ISRO CE engines has the third highest thrust in the world, after EU and USA.

(Better than the Russian , Chinese and Japanese engines).

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 04 Jul 2019 17:41

The GSLV MK3 Cryo engine is the largest upper stage Cryo in the world !

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2019 18:35

i once met a retired technician from GTRE who lives nearby and has a side hobby of being a puja pandit. apparently he had spent years working in canadian aerospace industry before coming to india. he did the opening puja for my apartment.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2019 18:38

even within the EU biraderi, for the typhoon eurojet engine, RR does not really share the hot section tech with MTU who makes the cold section.

hot section fluid dynamics, physics, material science is one of the highest crown jewels of IP. @ world class level only saturn, GE, P&W, snecma and RR have it for fighter engines. the list is even less for commercial aviation - GE-Snecma(CFM), P&W (incl GTF fame!) and RR is it.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby maitya » 04 Jul 2019 20:49

Singha wrote:even within the EU biraderi, for the typhoon eurojet engine, RR does not really share the hot section tech with MTU who makes the cold section.

hot section fluid dynamics, physics, material science is one of the highest crown jewels of IP. @ world class level only saturn, GE, P&W, snecma and RR have it for fighter engines. the list is even less for commercial aviation - GE-Snecma(CFM), P&W (incl GTF fame!) and RR is it.

May I just add, that once one achieves of DS-cast blade tech level, from there on "advancements" are purely incremental/baby steps ... for example, a very old post of mine (from circa 2014) which touches on the incremental nature of these advancements (pls note TeT increments with SCB Gen etc).

Nobody, and I repeat nobody will part these obscene-effort-and-cost-based-IPR ... and some people, in BRF, will still come and claim Russki-bhaichara etc has resulted in ToT of manufacturing AL-31P injin etc :((

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 04 Jul 2019 20:56

Moderator note - We are losing focus. Let it be clear designing a rocket engine is not the same as designing a jet engine. For eg how many reuses and refiring of a rocket engine versus jet engine is done ? Also mass flow rates, fuel etc are different. So please stay on focus. This is the Kaveri engine thread.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 04 Jul 2019 22:51

tsarkar wrote:Its foolish for us to expect ToT. No one parts with their crown jewels.

The only time we got real ToT was Type 209/1500 submarines and FH-77B 155 mm howitzers because both Germany and Sweden were peripheral players in the arms business and really needed the Indian deals.

Kaveri is achievable domestically provided we make it a multi-agency multi disciplinary-program similar to ATAGS program with DRDO as a lead integrator and work packages given to private and public sector entities. Private entities like L&T or Tata SED can hire lateral talent (specifically NRIs who are working in aerospace companies worldwide or teaching in universities) without getting into office politics of GTRE labs who're scared of laterals outranking them.


If we want jet turbine engine, it should come under PMO. Simple as that. Cut the MoD file pushing, drip irrigation style funding is not going to take us anywhere.

Stuff like nuke, SSBN, jet engine, hypersonic, space are strategic capabilities. If not driven by PMO, the SSBN would not seen the light of the day.

Jet engine requires huge budget, the kind only PMO can clear. HAL had to beg for money to set up a new LCA line. Imagine it producing F404 level jet engine.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2019 06:48

Have not followed this thread for some time now, so apologies for butting in.

1) I agree with tsarker. No one is going to give - in any form - their crown jewel.

As I said years ago, India needs to invest about a billion a year until the problems, of the kaveri, are resolved (the tail end is what cost the most ..... billions of $). India does have plenty of Excel spreadsheets of data, but that is not the problem (those spreadsheets provide what is known). The issue is what is unknown. That can only be resolved by bullheaded research. No other way. Fail multiple time.

OT

2) The DTTI Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology did NOT fail.
a) The "US" agreed (US SD left it to GE) (under Ash Carter) to part away with techs that India wanted under the "joint development".

It was in Sept 2017 that GE (although in the Trump era, it had nothing to do with the new President), in what was the last meeting under this Joint Group, that declined to part with the IP. GE agreed to everything else.

No URL for this news. But please follow the latest devs.

3) DTTI is not dead. Best it is in hibernation. Besides, India - actually MP - got the US to agree on a few other items of Interest to India (I had posted elsewhere that there is an Indian observer at DARPA, something MP wanted the DTTI idea to morph to). There are a couple of other items of interest that have favored India - for some other thread.

Sorry to go OT.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jul 2019 08:04

NRao wrote:2) The DTTI Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology did NOT fail.
a) The "US" agreed (US SD left it to GE) (under Ash Carter) to part away with techs that India wanted under the "joint development".

It was in Sept 2017 that GE (although in the Trump era, it had nothing to do with the new President), in what was the last meeting under this Joint Group, that declined to part with the IP. GE agreed to everything else.

No URL for this news. But please follow the latest devs.

Sorry to go OT.

Do you believe it is a good idea to pass off the above as facts? You yourself have indicated that you have no URL for Point 2 and Point 2a. Much has flowed since Sept 2017, because exactly a year later (in Sept 2018), one of the DTTI's centrepiece programs - the JETJWG - was shut down. In diplomatic parlance, they use the term strategic pause. Here is the link for that....

2+2 should finally yield 4
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/bl ... y-yield-4/

At its last meeting in July, DTTI’s jet engine working group was shut down for lack of progress. They chose to call it a “strategic pause”. Apparently, the divergence between what India wanted and what the US and General Electric were willing to offer was too wide. It’s obvious that GE will not part with its crown jewel having spent billions in R&D. As someone said, “it’s the one thing the company has”. GE executives saw it as a compromise of their intellectual property to even suggest improvements in an indigenous Indian engine (Kaveri). Differences also emerged because the US wanted a measure of where India was in terms of indigenous engine technology. India was not keen on open access and benchmarking.

There are many who follow the latest developments. Now if you have something more recent than Sept 2018, please share it with the forum. Since you brought up the point that the US agreed to part away with the engine tech that India wanted, can you kindly share what that tech is? What is the "everything else" exactly that GE agreed to share with India?

What India needs - and which no one will give - is the hot section of the engine.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jul 2019 08:25

A recent article (June 2019 vintage) from Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (Retd) on the much-vaunted DTTI.

Propel defence talks with US beyond rhetoric
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... 87484.html
14 June 2019

The present US interest and ‘affection’ for India is to have an ally to counter the increase in Chinese power in South and South East Asia. This is pivoted on the Indo-US Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI). The trick is to make it work to India’s advantage.

Indo-US defence relations have to move beyond the rhetoric of the "oldest democracy and largest democracy being natural allies". The fact is that they are not so due to the many dissimilarities in their political and social structures. Only national interests drive international relations. What better example than the 'strategic' Sino-US friendship that started in the 1970s to cut the USSR down to size and the resultant unprecedented economic largesse to Beijing that put it on a power trajectory that the US is now trying to oppose? Oh, the irony of it all! Or, the US-Pak relationship, with successive US presidents turning a Nelson's eye on Pakistan's export of terror and nuclear proliferation just to meet their national interest of defeating the USSR in Afghanistan. More importantly, the latest US decision to remove Turkey, the only Muslim-majority country in NATO, from the F-35 fighter programme due to its S-400 purchase from Russia shows that US decisions will continue to be driven by its national interests.

If one sees the reality, disregarding the 'natural-allies' rhetoric, the present US interest and 'affection' for India is on similar path — to have an ally to counter the increase in Chinese power in South and South East Asia. This is pivoted on the Indo-US Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI). The trick is to make it work to India's advantage and the litmus test for this 'friendship' would be US action, or inaction, against India due to Delhi's decision to acquire the S-400 (like Turkey). A status check of DTTI is in order, taking the IAF's projects as examples. DTTI, when signed in 2012, was "..to pursue four pathfinder DTTI projects for possible co-development and/or co-production, as well as cooperation on aircraft carriers and jet engine technology." Seven joint working groups were also launched and the yearly meetings, alternatively in the two countries, seem to be taking place.

The four 'pathfinder' projects were an apology to be classified as 'modern'; they were next-generation Raven Mini UAVs, roll-on and roll-off kits for C-130, mobile electric hybrid power source and a protector kit against chemical/bio/nuclear fallout. The Indian Army rejected the UAV as being low-tech. The C-130 project has not moved forward while the remaining two were closed in August, 2017. The jet engine technology project has not moved at all and, to add to the gloom, the India Rapid Reaction Cell set up by the US to fast-track DTTI projects has been downsized, an indicator perhaps of decreasing focus in the Trump administration. So, where is the bottleneck?

There is, certainly, bureaucratic inertia in India, but the feedback has also been that the US is more interested in using DTTI to identify technically sound Indian private players to feed into their supply chain. Theoretically, it's a good idea, but when one considers that the DRDO is reportedly being side-tracked, with only a perfunctory interest being shown in its labs for any R&D cooperation and no transfer of meaningful technology taking place, there enters an element of intrigue. Where does one go from here, considering that DTTI was advertised as a panacea for India's need for high-end technology to modernise its arms inventory? Modernisation and indigenisation are oxymoronic in nature. The former is a requirement of the Services that is immediate, while the latter takes decades to achieve. So, aspirational dreams that are not based on realities of realpolitik must be jettisoned and we must prioritise what is possible into short-, medium- and long-term engagements.

In the short term, remove the thrust on high-end impractical projects — as an example, the fifth generation jet engine that the GTRE is trying to develop for the past four-plus decades. The problem with the DRDO is that it wants to make either top-of-the-line stuff, or nothing at all, without taking certain mandatory baby steps (we are, even now, importing infantry man's rifle and ammunition). So, work on realistic doables, like for say, engines for the HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft, Intermediate Jet Trainer, UAVs et al, and then graduate to bigger ones based on the expertise gained. In fact, that's how China's industry has progressed and in our case, the US may be willing to part with technology that does not threaten its monopoly. There are two co-development projects that look encouraging: the small air launched Unmanned Aircraft System and the Virtual Augmented Mixed Reality for Aircraft Maintenance (VAMRAM). Technologies that are no longer niche but are important op requirements, like software-defined radios, may be pursued.

In the mid-term, ISTAR (Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance) platforms, sensor and optics technology, wide band data links and high-end encryption devices could be looked at. With the IAF placing its bets on the DRDO's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft for the 2030s as its mainstay fighter, we would be in need of technology for equipment like radar absorbent material, low visibility intake design, conformal antenna et al. Finally, if the Indo-US handshake has to really become firm, then long-term projects need to evolve from the mid-term requirements and lead on to high-end ones like jet engine technology etc.

DTTI will not deliver the 'high' tech aspired by India — no country parts with top-of-the-line technology. The second 'T' which stands for trade, is what the US is exploiting to access our small private players. If, and it is a big if, they are receiving high-grade technology, then it is an acceptable proposition. However, if it is just screwdriver information, then they are mere 'trading' entities. The only spin-off could be an increase in manufacturing, with the hope that the private players would build on the experience and design their own products. Some of our small entrepreneurs are tech wizards and one needs to guard against them being bought over by big foreign players wherein their IPRs would be lost. The government must, thus, take a realistic view (devoid of aspirational 'kite-flying') of what technology the US can actually share. A three-stage 'flight plan' of the trajectory that Indo-US defence cooperation should take must be drawn up and fed into a realistic long-term indigenisation plan that takes into account the immediate modernisation needs of the Services.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2019 09:59

Problem.is Research in GTRE.
It's too much to demand a turbofan out of them.
And of them to sign up.
Before you go ballistic many of them are college mates

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jul 2019 20:15

ramana wrote:Problem.is Research in GTRE.
It's too much to demand a turbofan out of them.
And of them to sign up.
Before you go ballistic many of them are college mates

I agree Ramana-ji. However bombastic statements on BRF - about perceived US benevolence - needs to be stopped. Statements - without a link for verification - like above (not you Sir!) will invite a ban. If someone is going to make a statement (to pass off as fact), you better have a link or a data point to back it up. Final Warning.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 05 Jul 2019 20:28

There is no shortcut to engine development. SJHA recently (6/28) hinted on twitter that a flight worthy low-bypass turbofan may be coming together. Does anyone know what was he referring to - Kaveri or HTFE?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1144478225592025089 : Slowly but surely all the pieces for creating a flight worthy low-bypass turbofan (jet engine) are coming together. Obviously, the usual 'Indian style' hurdles remain (now, don't ask me to elaborate), but for the first time in years something might just come of it.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jul 2019 21:25

did something meaningful come out from the Rafale offsets? given that we havent heard and half of 2019 is past..which is what it was hitting for ..would it be safe to assume it nothing came out of it? Googleeshwara doesn't give much...

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Jul 2019 11:22

ArjunPandit wrote:did something meaningful come out from the Rafale offsets? given that we havent heard and half of 2019 is past..which is what it was hitting for ..would it be safe to assume it nothing came out of it? Googleeshwara doesn't give much...



nothing meaningful or useful will ever come out of any offset.


it all goes proceeds on a wink wink nudge nudge basis and each side is paying lip service.

In actual fact, we have the muscle to force them to address our concerns but some creep politico or baboo(n) will always be keen to let the side down because of considerations.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Jul 2019 11:30

Vivek K wrote:There is no shortcut to engine development. SJHA recently (6/28) hinted on twitter that a flight worthy low-bypass turbofan may be coming together. Does anyone know what was he referring to - Kaveri or HTFE?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1144478225592025089 : Slowly but surely all the pieces for creating a flight worthy low-bypass turbofan (jet engine) are coming together. Obviously, the usual 'Indian style' hurdles remain (now, don't ask me to elaborate), but for the first time in years something might just come of it.


it would be unwise to assume that any one twitter handle has India's sole interests at heart.

every one of them has some angle to play or some point to pitch or even some interests to peddle.

watchfully trust but only after verification and constant corroboration from multiple unconnected sources

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 06 Jul 2019 16:07

ramana wrote:Problem.is Research in GTRE.
It's too much to demand a turbofan out of them.
And of them to sign up.
Before you go ballistic many of them are college mates


It has to be done by an industry not a single laboratory entity like the GTRE.

We should have first built and mass-produced our own turbojet first. We skipped this step entirely and then shot for the moon with a turbofan which when the Kaveri program started in the 1980s was something that even the Russians had problems with -- in fact, the RD-33 and AL-31 are problematic to this very day.

The truth is we attempted something that is really only perfected by a handful of Western firms.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Jul 2019 23:25

copying on ramana's request from BRF twitter dhaaga:
---

#JaiShriRam Ramana
JayS, Did you take aircraft sizing studies in College? Specifically I want to know if the M88 cored Kaveri engine can be fitted into a Su-30 with an adapter structure? Mig 29 and K?
Jaguar path is the HAL engine with after burner.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · Yesterday, 4:41 PM

Ramana, if we take core of M88, we will habe to basically redesign LP system from scratch to match with the core, unless Kaveri LP system is already, with some incredible coincidence or due to extensive Snecma consutancy, has correct blade angles and mass flow rate matching for M88 core.
JayS· Yesterday, 10:44 PM

And funfact is GTRE has core working OK, and has had trouble with LP Compressor and AB system mainly. So I dont see the point in replacing core. What we shud hv gotten from French is SCB. Not the ToT but blades supplied to our design. And help in AB system design.
JayS · Yesterday, 10:46 PM

JayS
I never have seen no reference to SCBs in Kaveri so far, apart from SCBs from DMRL. Kaveri has had DS blades. I dont think we can make those blades completely ourselves. We do not have technology so far, for TBC coating and laser hole drilling. For that the blades are sent abroad. I cant think why France wouldnt want to mfg scb stock blades for us and supply.
JayS · 12:12 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
JayS, How many M29 are there?
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:14 AM

JayS
The process that Russians ToTed is less advanced than even what DMRL has developed. What we were lacking was TBC and laser drilling. Recently we have seen TBC related tender from DMRL, IIRC, indicating some definite progress there.
JayS · 12:15 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
France had a close call with DT demanding India buy American for 114. India refused and bought S400. So France owes India one.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:16 AM
IAF has 3 SQ of M29. I dont know exact number but its between 60 and 70.

JayS
IN has 45 odd M29K
JayS · 12:21 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
So they won't miss one.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:21 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
If we push IAF to hand over a M29, is the engine ready?
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:23 AM

JayS
Interestingly HAL's HTSE1200 also have SCB in them. Question is how is HAL making them, or is it Snecma which is supplying them..? Its highly likely that HAL is getting Shakti SCB from Snecma and usi g them in HTSE. I would be surprized to see HAL making those SCB on their own based on Russian ToT. Its definitely a possibility and would be a pleasant surprize if its the case.
JayS· 12:25 AM

JayS
GTRE folks say its ready. Scecma has audited and says its ready for limited flight testing. We have had some discussion in Kaveri thread where I posted some recent publications from GTRE which indicate they have solved the issues with LPC flutter and AB screech. I feel there is good evidence to suggest the engine is ready for flight testing.
JayS· 12:27 AM



JayS
They may find more problems in FT, but without FT we will never know.
JayS· 12:28 AM

JayS
There is a plane for couple of FT campaigns on larger FTB, most likely IL76. I think a tender was out for first one. But my memory is bit hazy on this. The discussion must be there in Kaberi thread. Or Indranil might remember.
JayS· 12:30 AM



#JaiShriRam Ramana
Indranil and your article on MWF and comparison to Grippen being read in high places.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:55 AM

JayS
Good too know. If it makes some. Impression where it matters,nothing like it.
JayS · 1:40 AM

No Jay, I meant the SCBs were almost ready from our labs and it was only a question of jigs. I don't recollect any news after that we made to make the prototype (k9?).

The failure was with the existing blade.. and we were working on the SCB (drdo pub i recollect). BTW, isn't DS the first step to single crystals? The process used by russkies for the AL fps is different? Or we never got this tech from them?

Anyway, I think we were close yp get the 90* bends with SCB (I need tp refer the pub) or something. I vaguely remember zirconium reference..hence the question.
2:43 AM

JayS
DMRL has 2nd Gen SCB. But they can make the stock material. From there to finished blade need two critical. Tech we didnt have, TBC and Laser driling for cooli g holes. Midhani was in process of dev those tech. This is way back in 2017.recently there was a tender for TBC machine setup.
JayS · 5:46 AM

JayS
Russian tech is a bit tedious one, per a DMRL scientist. Western method is better and DMRL has followed the western approach. Also IIRC, Al31 HPT blades have single pass internal cooli g channels. While western scb have multipass. Even DMRL blades are multipass.
JayS · 5:48 AM

Nilesh Ji .. novice question: are we focusing on creating smaller jets for drones? Can Kaveri be downsized for a surveillance drone?
Jambavan
Thanks in advance
Jambavan · 5:57 AM

JayS
We have couple of small jet engines, PTAE7, Manik which are good for drones. Companies like Poerjet, Kalyani are making micro jets. HTFE25 is there. Kaveri is too tfta for drones.
JayS· 6:17 AM

At IITB, we have now new propulsion lab for SCB research.
8:59 AM

JayS
is that a part of CoPT.?
JayS · 11:54 AM

yes. per last oped I read

https://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-n ... ZC7OO.html

I wanted to go visit IITB for some time, but could never manage. I was curious to find out what they are doing exactly. I was in touch with this thing long back when it was mere castle in the air.
JayS
in 2014
JayS · 12:12 PM

tsarkar
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 23 Jul 2019 01:48

IIT Bombay is doing some super great work but not sure how much of it is in open domain.

As I have posted earlier, specific "work packages/projects" are given to the faculty & kids completion of which looks really nice in their resume when they're recruited by aerospace majors. I know kids recruited by THE companies based on such work.

A real win win situation! The turn of this decade will indicate whether we've crossed the Rubicon.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2019 03:46

SaiK, Thanks.
edited out names.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 23 Jul 2019 04:14

I saw some SCB samples being made for kaveri some years ago.

don't know what happened as I lost both track and interest because of security issues.

someone in GTRE would know.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2019 06:01

I would like to know the current status of the Kaveri engine.
Are ground tests complete?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 23 Jul 2019 11:10

Difficult to know current state given MoD stopped publishing Annual Reports. No new Parliamentary Committee reports too. This AI 2019 didnt bring out much info too. GTRE guys were mostly tight lipped on JV with Snecma. Looks like France asked too much money. Felt like GTRE guys have almost given up. The GTRE Senior Sci there said, they are standing by for Flight testing, but it has to happen as G2G level. All they can do is wait till then. They have tweaked the design but it needs to be flight tested to see how well the problem is solved, of it its solved at all. Of coarse, anything said in AI needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Surprizingly he didnt know about the FTB that DRDO is mulling over as per Parliamentary Committee report, for good long 4-5yrs now.

If someone can get hold of right paanwalla, may be we can get some idea.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 25 Jul 2019 06:52

#JaiShriRam Ramana
Indranil and your article on MWF and comparison to Grippen being read in high places.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:55 AM

Can any one point me towards the Link to the article discussed over here

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2019 10:08

rajsunder wrote:
#JaiShriRam Ramana
Indranil and your article on MWF and comparison to Grippen being read in high places.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:55 AM

Can any one point me towards the Link to the article discussed over here

Click on link below, scroll down and look for a two part article by Indranil Roy and Nilesh Rane on the Tejas.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689

Very happy to read Ramana-ji’s tweet. Let us hope The article spurs the people (who are in high places) to go full steam ahead on the MWF.

Good job IR and Nilesh. BRF owes you both!

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby maitya » 27 Jul 2019 15:21

SaiK wrote:copying on ramana's request from BRF twitter dhaaga:
---

<snip>
No Jay, I meant the SCBs were almost ready from our labs and it was only a question of jigs. I don't recollect any news after that we made to make the prototype (k9?).

The failure was with the existing blade.. and we were working on the SCB (drdo pub i recollect). BTW, isn't DS the first step to single crystals? The process used by russkies for the AL fps is different? Or we never got this tech from them?

Anyway, I think we were close yp get the 90* bends with SCB (I need tp refer the pub) or something. I vaguely remember zirconium reference..hence the question.
2:43 AM

JayS
DMRL has 2nd Gen SCB. But they can make the stock material. From there to finished blade need two critical. Tech we didnt have, TBC and Laser driling for cooli g holes. Midhani was in process of dev those tech. This is way back in 2017.recently there was a tender for TBC machine setup.
JayS · 5:46 AM
<snip>

Wrt the above here are some musings (in 4 part series) wrt DS and SC casted Nickel-base Superalloys for blading applications in aircraft engines:

[Part 1]
If you are only going by the metal temperature handling capability alone, then pls note the following:
1) The DS casted blades provide ~14deg C advantage over equiaxed polycrystalline casted blades (e.g. MAR M247, with approx metal temp capability of 950-1050 deg C).
e.g. Kaveri/Kabini uses DS casted blades (and vanes) using Supercast 247A (a variant of CM247LC which is itself derived from equiaxed MAR M247)

2) The 1st Gen SC blades provide another ~20deg C advantage, over these DS casted blades.
e.g. RR2060/PW1480/CMSX3/ReneN4 - 1060 deg C

3) The 2nd Gen SC blades provide another ~30deg C advantage over these 1st Gen SC casted blades.
e.g. PWA1484/CMSX4/ReneN5 - 1120 deg C

4) After that, the 3-5th Gen SC blades are produced with an aim of adding further ~30deg C advantage, as follows:
CMSX10 - 1135 deg C
ReneN6 - 1110 deg C
TMS80/MC-NG/DMS4 - 1140 deg C
TMS196 - 1150 deg C

Pls further note DMS4 is the DMRL developed suddha-desi SC alloys for turbine blade application - and it's almost shoulder to shoulder to best available (i.e. published).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Note - GE uses Rene-6 in F414.
DMRL developed a DS cast version of DMS4 called DMD4 - it was specifically developed for complex turbine aerofoil parts that are difficult to cast in SC form - and also as an cost-effective alternative. Further research continued with DMD4 by adding Ru and it was actaully proved to significantly improve the rupture life etc etc.


So it's obvious simply graduating from Equiaxed -> DS -> SC casting, it's not possible to reach the 1400-1650 deg C TeT capabilities of many modern turbofans.
Also the question obviously arises, how is the 1455deg C TeT of Kaveri achieved given the metal temperature capability of 1050 deg C of DS casted CM247LC based blades?

Answer, of course, and is well known in BRF as well is, from following two aspects:
1) Implementing various Blade Cooling techniques (e.g. Film/Convection cooling) - with this, a decent DS casted blade would provide for 200-250 deg C advantage (eg DS GTD 111) over metal-temperature-handling capabilities.
However a SC casted blade, again with a decently designed blade cooling techniques, would allow this advantage to go upto ~400 deg C.

2) Thermal Barrier Coating (TBC) application - Generally, the 7-8 wt% Yttria Stabilized Zirconia (8YSZ) TBC provides 150 deg C advantage (not to be confused with "thick layer"-TBC-application-capable-surfaces like the combustor walls etc, which can allow as much as 250-300 deg C advantages).


So Kaveri's DS blades gets to 1455 deg C via 1050 deg C (DS Cast) + 250 deg C thru blade cooling + 150 deg C via 8YSZ based TBC.
Last edited by maitya on 27 Jul 2019 23:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby maitya » 27 Jul 2019 15:45

[Part 2]
Thus one assertion can be - that higher TeT is desired of, DS to SC graduation is inevitable in any modern turbofan development program.

But that is not because of incremental metal temperature capability addition etc (at best 20-60 deg C advantage).
The actual advantage of moving from DS to SC is not simply via the raw blade metal temp enhancement - it's more to do with thin section property optimisation that is inherent to SC processing. This thin section property optimisation (for e.g. in the thinnest section of a blade, the wall thickness (metal portion) is as small as 0.5 mm) allows for further intricate cooling passage designing etc which in turn allows drastic increase in overall TeT etc (200-250deg C of DS casted to 400+ deg C levels of SC casted blades).
This of course is in addition to the fantastic improvement of creep-resistance, tensile strength etc properties that entails from Equiaxed -> DS -> SC graduations (details in the Kaveri Sticky thread).

Also another aspect is advances in TBC ... recently we have seen reports of Indian Rare Earths Limited developing bi-layer TBC of Lanthanum Zirconate (LZ) over Yttrium Stabilized Zirconia (YSZ).
A bilayer top-coat consisting of Lanthanum Zirconate (LZ) over 8YSZ applied over "traditional" bond coat of say NiCrAlY enhances the temperature capability of the coating by >100deg.
So basically this advanced TBC if successfully applied to Kaveri's DS casted HPT turbine blades will easily bring the TeT to mid-1500deg C regime.

And if (and when) DMRL graduates to SC casted blades (and vanes), of the already developed DMS4 material, the absolute cutting edge TeT regimes of 1600+ deg C, becomes well within reach.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby maitya » 27 Jul 2019 15:49

[Part 3]

A word about 8YSZ and LZ TBCs - note, Wiki has good level of general details wrt the TBC concept:

1) The "traditional" 8YSZ TBC (that has been ther for 4 decades now) allows for maximum surface temperature capability of about 1200 °C - beyond that degradation of the coating (in form of reduced strain tolerance and a decrease in thermal fatigue life of the coating) takes place due to changes in microstructure.

2) Lanthanum Zirconate (LZ), has much higher thermal and phase stability - close to 2000deg C.
It also has lower thermal conductivity and sintering tendency compared to YSZ.
(Thermal Conductivity - 2 W/m/K of YSZ vs 1.56 W/m/K of LZ)

3) LZ is also less oxygen transparent than YSZ, providing better bond coat oxidation resistance and minimises the growth of TGO (Thermaly Grown Oxide layer) - Wiki has good details about TGO and it's impact on TBC.

4) LZ has lower coefficient of thermal expansion compared to YSZ - so it can not be applied directly on the NiCrAlY bond coat. Therefore LZ is applied as a top coat material over YSZ forming a bilayer TBC. Furthermore LZ has good chemical compatibility with YSZ, making them a very good candidate for bilayer top coat applications.

5) Nano-structured TBCs often exhibit excellent performance compared with conventional TBCs such as adhesive strength, thermal shock resistance, thermal insulation, corrosion resistance and so on.
Furthermore nano-structured bi-layer is also expected to reflect certain amount of radiations (std phyzziks says wavelength of the reflected light is directly proportional to the particle diameter) thus providing a more effective TBC. So for reflecting heat in the near IR spectrum, TBC micro-particles needs to be of the order of 1-3 μm.

6) In India Nano-structured high purity grade YSZ and LZ are prepared from beach sand containing monazite and zircon following wet chemical route i.e. co-precipitation method.

7) DRDO has tested air-plasma sprayed TBC comprising of NiCrAlY bond coat (of 50 μm thickness), YSZ top coat (thickness 100 μm) and LZ top-most coat (thickness 50 μm) on to cast Ni-base super alloy substrates. The total maximum thickness was kept well below 250 μm.

8 ) DRDO has already assembled and validated the bi-layer YSZ-LZ coated flaps in an aero-engine for test cases involving rapid thermal transients, supersonic flow of combustion products, vibratory loads of about 4 ‘g’, sustained 1,000 h equivalent of engine operation and more than 30,000 nozzle actuations.

======================================================================================

All of these in Parts 1-3, still doesn't clarify following two questions:
1) why is DMRL not able to create SC casted blades for Kaveri?
2) and if it was not, able to what are these SC casted turbine blade images from various AI and other published literature that's doing round for many years now?

An attempt wrt these aspects in my next post (Part-4).

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 28 Jul 2019 05:24

Rakesh wrote:
rajsunder wrote:Can any one point me towards the Link to the article discussed over here

Click on link below, scroll down and look for a two part article by Indranil Roy and Nilesh Rane on the Tejas.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689

Very happy to read Ramana-ji’s tweet. Let us hope The article spurs the people (who are in high places) to go full steam ahead on the MWF.

Good job IR and Nilesh. BRF owes you both!

Thanks for the link

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 28 Jul 2019 07:05

Nobody owes us anything.

I have already got my rewards. Much better than monetary!

Nilesh is done with the NLCA article. I was very busy for the last two months. Will take it up shortly and try to finish that piece in couple of weeks.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 31 Jul 2019 15:56

i know it's idrw ..but still posting in the hope that there is hope..

http://idrw.org/smaller-turbo-fan-engin ... successor/

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 15 Aug 2019 10:21

DRDO, French company talks on Kaveri jet engine crash
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 684809.cms


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