Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Sep 2019 10:04

ldev wrote:Russia wants to build a modernized AN-124 heavy lift military freighter with all Russian parts including engines. The traditional AN-124 used D-18T
turbofans made by Motor-Zich, the Ukrainian engine maker which is in financial trouble. India should buy it and then buy the modernized AN-124 from Russia and equip it with a modernized version/newer development of the engine. This will also mitigate the lack of heavy lift capacity because of the C-17 shutdown and expose India to this turbofan technology.

Ilyushin to design modernised An-124 with Russian components


because of our strong ties with russia, we have cold vibes with the ukrainians and have not encouraged them to sell arms/tech in the Indian market because of russian objections.

It would take a lot to persuade them to accommodate us.

What guarantees would we have that those really critical employees needed to run the company technically would not leave the company once the sale is made and leave us holding a useless foreign PSU.

maybe a big arms deal with them may help to ease their reluctance, if any, in dealing with us.

Its time that we diversified away from russia as well as the US/france and maybe this is our golden chance, if we could pull it off.

The ukrainians have naval tech as well that we could really use.

re the C-17, the US actually needs more of them so in combination with the US orders and other orders from some foreign operators, the C-17 makers manage to scare up sufficient numbers of orders, they just may be willing to open up the line once again.
Last edited by chetak on 01 Sep 2019 10:13, edited 1 time in total.

ldev
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ldev » 01 Sep 2019 10:11

chetak wrote:because of our strong ties with russia, we have cold vibes with the ukrainians and have not encouraged them to sell arms/tech in the Indian market because of russian objections.

It would take a lot to persuade them to accommodate us.

What guarantees would we have that those really critical employees needed to run the company technically would not leave the company once the sale is made and leave us holding a useless foreign PSU.

maybe a big arms deal with them may help to ease their reluctance, if any, in dealing with us.

Its time that we diversified away from russia as well as the US/france and maybe this is our golden chance.

The ukrainians have naval tech as well that we could really use.


For the Russians to directly deal with Ukraine is a non starter. But for India to acquire this Motor-Sich and then tell the Russians to deal with India as an intermediary is within the realm of being doable.

The Ukrainians are totally beholden to the US so if the US gives it's nod the Ukrainians will agree to sell the company to India. To keep key employees on board you have to give them funding to develop a new generation of engines. That is in India's interest. Both to keep the employees as well as to learn the technology.

And finally work with the Russians to modernize the AN-124 but insist that for the IAF AN-124s, the engines will be sourced from the Indian owned Ukrainian Motor-Sich.

And why does India have to play catch up in this respect with China. The Chinese have already approached for the buy and were rebuffed under US pressure. Is there any department within GOI that does opportunistic global scouting for such companies?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 01 Sep 2019 10:15

Not to mention Chinese are churning out Y-20s equipped with Russian engines, albeit underpowered. Next gen engines will give them the required performance.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Sep 2019 10:19

ldev wrote:
chetak wrote:because of our strong ties with russia, we have cold vibes with the ukrainians and have not encouraged them to sell arms/tech in the Indian market because of russian objections.

It would take a lot to persuade them to accommodate us.

What guarantees would we have that those really critical employees needed to run the company technically would not leave the company once the sale is made and leave us holding a useless foreign PSU.

maybe a big arms deal with them may help to ease their reluctance, if any, in dealing with us.

Its time that we diversified away from russia as well as the US/france and maybe this is our golden chance.

The ukrainians have naval tech as well that we could really use.


For the Russians to directly deal with Ukraine is a non starter. But for India to acquire this Motor-Sich and then tell the Russians to deal with India as an intermediary is within the realm of being doable.

The Ukrainians are totally beholden to the US so if the US gives it's nod the Ukrainians will agree to sell the company to India. To keep key employees on board you have to give them funding to develop a new generation of engines. That is in India's interest. Both to keep the employees as well as to learn the technology.

And finally work with the Russians to modernize the AN-124 but insist that for the IAF AN-124s, the engines will be sourced from the Indian owned Ukrainian Motor-Sich.

And why does India have to play catch up in this respect with China. The Chinese have already approached for the buy and were rebuffed under US pressure. Is there any department within GOI that does opportunistic global scouting for such companies?


It's no more the russia of old.

any deal with ukraine will by force exclude russia and vice versa.

Dealing with these two is mutually exclusive

there is a deep enmity between the two, ukraine & russia and its a gap that we will not be able to bridge.

I wish that it were not so but there you have it.

russia blotted its copybook by invading ukraine and nothing could be worse than that for all parties concerned.

If such deals were possible at all, would we not have towed the carcass of Vikramaditya to an ukranian yard for its refit and got a much better and cheaper job done.

BTW, the US is the very last country to sell engine tech to India or allow others that it influences to do so. It

Remember what the US did with the USSR to sabotage our ISRO and the cryogenic engine project and at the time it was not very friendly with the USSR either and yet it stopped them from selling to India
Last edited by chetak on 01 Sep 2019 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ldev » 01 Sep 2019 10:28

Chetak,

What about the Krivak-III frigates that India is buying from Russia? Don't they have Ukrainian gas turbines? And if so, how is that working out?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Sep 2019 10:30

ldev wrote:Chetak,

What about the Krivak-III frigates that India is buying from Russia? Don't they have Ukrainian gas turbines? And if so, how is that working out?

You may well be right there Idev ji but I am not clued up enough on the Krivak-III frigates to comment.

apologies as I have no details except as below

per wiki

Power plant

The Talwars features the Zorya designed and Mashproekt (Ukraine) manufactured M7N.1E gas turbine plant which comprises two DS-71 cruise turbines and two DT-59 boost turbines in two engine rooms. The cruising component consists of two DS-71 gas-turbine engines, each rated at 9,000 horsepower (6,700 kW) in forward running, and 1,500 hp (1,100 kW) in reverse. Two cruising RO63 two-speed gearboxes and one cruising R1063 auxiliary gearbox which makes it possible to use any of the cruising engines to drive both propeller shafts. A boost component with two DT-59.1 gas-turbine engines, each rated at 19,500 hp (14,500 kW) forward running, 4,500 hp (3,400 kW) in reverse and two RO58 single-speed reduction gearboxes. The four gas turbines are mounted on isolated cradles which minimize their contact with the hull and thereby considerably reduce the transmission of her vibration and sound.[4][8]
Last edited by chetak on 01 Sep 2019 10:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ldev » 01 Sep 2019 10:37

chetak wrote:
ldev wrote:Chetak,

What about the Krivak-III frigates that India is buying from Russia? Don't they have Ukrainian gas turbines? And if so, how is that working out?


You may well be right there Idev ji but I am not clued up enough on the Krivak-III frigates to comment. apologies


I think Ukraine agreed to supply the gas turbines to India but would not send them to Russia, something like that.

For the purchase of Motor-Sich by India the pivotal vote is the US. Anyway, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Sep 2019 10:41

ldev wrote:
chetak wrote:
You may well be right there Idev ji but I am not clued up enough on the Krivak-III frigates to comment. apologies


I think Ukraine agreed to supply the gas turbines to India but would not send them to Russia, something like that.

For the purchase of Motor-Sich by India the pivotal vote is the US. Anyway, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


I agree with what you say.

we need this company badly but it looks like others are aware of it and maybe actively blocking it.

Modi hai to mumkin hai.

Let's see.

why not tweet to the PMO directly on this company.

It is just like you said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby maitya » 01 Sep 2019 13:31

JayS wrote:
I tweeted following stuff few days back.

Tender from HAL for outsourcing of Single Crystal Blade castings for HPT and LPT. Interesting. My best guess is this is for Adour 871 engines which power IAF's Hawk AJT fleet.
<snip>
Even more interestingly, GTRE is looking for 3D printed HPT Nozzle Guide Vanes out of In718 using DMLS technology.
<snip>

Now this is really really really intriguing, to say the least.

Normally (and contrary to popular belief), HPT Vanes are the ones who gets to deal with the raw TeT-level-heated gases (so for Kaveri HPT vanes it would be 1455deg C) - the HPT blades gets to deal with lower temp levels as there'll be some 7-8% temp drop across the HPT vanes itself.

And in the HPT rotor, the blade tip gets to deal with the highest temp levels (after the temp drop across HPT vanes), followed by the rest of the blade and finally to "low" 800-900 deg C levels in the disk.

Trouble of course is, HPT Vanes are notoriously difficult to cast - due to their larger sized geometry (compared to the blades, for example) etc - all engine makers struggle with DS/SC casting of HPT vanes and GTRE/DMRL were no exception. Most difficult aspect of course is designing and implementing various internal cooling channels etc in the vane casting dies, even before one talks about Vacuum Investment Casting etc.

Now doing away casted vanes should, and that's my hypothesis, mean the following:

Maturing of LZ-YSZ bilayer TBC tech - so GTRE/DMRL are ok with a poly crystalline application via 3-D printed HPT Vane and then applying a "thick" LZ-YSZ bilayer TBC on it, to "protect" the substrate metal.
And being a stator, they will get enough headroom wrt the "thickness" of the bi-layer TBC application etc as, unlike a rotor, the physical forces that compounds the spalding-effect to kick-in would be very less.

Pls remember that unlike 7-8YSZ TBC (which allows max 1200 deg C levels of ambient temp, before micro-structural issues starts cracking the TBC application itself), the LSZ outer coating would theoretically allow the ambient temp to go upto as high as 1800-1900 deg C etc.

There would be definitely some weight saving and may be, and more importantly, will allow higher TeT levels to come into play (of course the rotor HPT blades also need to graduate to maybe SC casted levels to handle higher temps etc).

Very interesting indeed - now, if only some paanwala confirmation were there. :((

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Sep 2019 21:20

ArjunPandit wrote:
Gyan wrote:GE 414 Engine is only USD 5 Million, how come Jaguar upgrade engineering be is USD 13 Million each?

should be because of amortization over 1000 engines and no design/ip inputs
PS: 1500 engine was delivered in 2015


it's not the cost of the engines

it's the state dept version of marketing 101 combined with really third grade ameriki politics.

they will soon pitch their own aircraft to replace the jag

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Sep 2019 21:32

In the meanwhile take a gander at this. no wonder that the hans are bidding for the ukrainian engine company

twitter --->
#Pakistan refuses #Chinese engines in China’s JF-17 fighters - Thanks, but no thanks #China, only #Russian engines accepted


Pakistan refuses Chinese engines in China’s JF-17 fighters

Pakistan refuses Chinese engines in China’s JF-17 fighters

CRAIG HILL ⋅ SEPTEMBER 1, 2019

As the JF-17 is one of China’s “clean slate” designs, this bodes well for the reliability characteristics of the current generation of Chinese aircraft.

However, the JF-17 still uses a Russian engine, and the Pakistan Air Force rejected offers to use Chinese engines in their JF-17s in 2015. Engines remain a critical weakness in the Chinese aerospace industry.

The 2019 India-Pakistan border skirmish resulted in major shake-ups within the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The most accepted narrative, that of a loss of an IAF MiG-21 Bison to no losses of the Pakistan Air Force bodes poorly for the IAF. But interestingly, according to a July interview, the skirmish marked one of the first “hot” use of Pakistan’s new Chinese JF-17 “Thunder” fighters.

The JF-17 is a relatively new single-engine fighter, meant to compete against other light fighters like the F-16, Gripen, and MiG-29 for export contracts. As the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is the only large user, most solid information about the aircraft is from Chinese marketing documents. But the July interview gives one pilot’s opinion on how the JF-17 stacks up against most common adversaries, from Sukhois to F-16s.

The extent of the JF-17’s “hot” usage following the border skirmish was in patrols near the border. In some incidents, the pilot said that during these patrols, he was getting radar lock-on Su-30MKIs at ranges in excess of 100 kilometers.

However, this doesn’t mean that a JF-17 could kill with a missile at that range. The JF-17’s primary beyond-visual-range (BVR) armament is the PL-12 missile, which is still undergoing integration (as of February 2019). During the actual border air skirmish, PAF F-16s lobbed AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles at similar ranges, which forced IAF aircraft to go defensive to dodge the missiles, but no kills were scored. As the PL-12 is said to have a similar range to the AMRAAM, it’s likely that its kinematic performance at range is similar, and it too wouldn’t be able to score a kill.

But if the JF-17 allows the pilot to “lob” a missile at planes at such ranges, it still might be a step ahead of the IAF’s Su-30MKIs. According to an NDTV report, the Russian R-77 missiles cannot engage targets past 80 km.

Despite the Su-30’s missile limitations, the JF-17 pilot said that the Su-30 was one of the most formidable threats the PAF faces. This is likely due to the strong engines and maneuvering capability of the Su-30, which allows it to recover energy quickly after maneuvering and makes it hard to shoot down in a within visual range (WVR) engagement.

Interestingly, the pilot then goes onto state that he’s not that afraid of the Su-30 because he’s trained against F-16s with AMRAAMs, which he thinks is a far superior missile. The pilot also states that the MICA on the Mirage is also a significant threat.

This suggests that the pilot probably thinks that the fight will be largely decided, or largely influenced by the BVR stage of the engagement and that the JF-17’s capabilities in that arena are competitive to the F-16 and Mirage. However, the pilot does say that the JF-17’s limited BVR loadout is its main weakness, as most models of the JF-17 can only carry four BVR missiles, compared to the Su-30MKI which can carry eight or more.

The pilot also gives good marks to the JF-17 for reliability, flight characteristics, and maintenance. As the JF-17 is one of China’s “clean slate” designs, this bodes well for the reliability characteristics of the current generation of Chinese aircraft. However, the JF-17 still uses a Russian engine, and the PAF rejected offers to use Chinese engines in their JF-17s in 2015. Engines remain a critical weakness in the Chinese aerospace industry.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 02 Sep 2019 14:57

^^^ And the RD-33/93 itself is a pretty unreliable engine which we know from our own experience on the MiG-29s. You can also see anything powered by it from miles away because it smokes like chimney. lol

The truth is quality engines reside only in less than a handful of Western nations. But kudos to anyone who can get one to power a jet, it is arcane art of the highest order.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 02 Sep 2019 15:29

chola wrote:^^^ And the RD-33/93 itself is a pretty unreliable engine which we know from our own experience on the MiG-29s. You can also see anything powered by it from miles away because it smokes like chimney. lol

The truth is quality engines reside only in less than a handful of Western nations. But kudos to anyone who can get one to power a jet, it is arcane art of the highest order.


you live with what you have and what you can get or to be more truthful, what you are allowed to get by the goras.

nothing much happening in the country on this front.

and when you boast roughly half a trillion dollars in FE reserves, a booming economy and whatnot, you will pay deluxe prices.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 05 Sep 2019 03:59

chetak wrote:You may well be right there Idev ji but I am not clued up enough on the Krivak-III frigates to comment.
Power plant

The Talwars features the Zorya designed and Mashproekt (Ukraine) manufactured M7N.1E gas turbine plant which comprises two DS-71 cruise turbines and two DT-59 boost turbines in two engine rooms.

Even our P-15A and P-15B destroyers use the Zorya turbines. So the Ukrainians aren't averse to doing direct deals with us still. Thank goodness Zorya-Mashproekt is state owned and not up for sale (yet) unlike Motor Sich. If the Chinese bought that we would be in a soup to put it lightly.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 12 Sep 2019 00:19

Updates on Engine programs from HAL AR 2018-19

25 KN Hindustan Turbofan Engine (HTFE-25)
Design and development of a 25kN thrust class turbofan
engine, which can be used on Basic/ Advanced military
trainers, on small business jets and also large UAV
applications is under progress. The engine can be
used on a 5-ton weight class aircraft in single engine
configuration and on aircraft of up to 9-ton weight class
with twin-engine configuration. Two core engines have
been produced so far and are undergoing development
trials. So far 339 runs have been completed on Core-1
and Core-2 engines, of which 96 runs were completed in
2018-19. HTFE-25 was successfully completed cold light
up at 14°C with spark igniters and achieving 100 per cent
max speed with and without IGV modulation. HTFE-25
engine was also successfully tested with a Technology
demonstrator of Servo based Fuel Measuring Unit (FMU).
The Company has taken up the design and development
of ‘Afterburner Technology’ for HTFE-25 aero engine. The
afterburner module was mounted on the PTAE engine
followed by a successful demonstration of the basic
afterburner technology using a fixed area propelling
nozzle for HTFE-25 engine, in March, 2019.


The 1200KW Turbo shaft engine would be used as
power plant for 3 to 6-ton category helicopters. One
technology demonstrator of HTSE-1200 engine was
built and is currently under testing. Sea level testing was
conducted in DefExpo-2018 and a maximum speed of
76 per cent of engine has been achieved.
Technology demonstrators of Effusion Cooled
Combustor and High Efficiency Compressor were
developed and built for HTSE-1200 engine and
successfully tested on the engine. Directionally
Solidified Gas Generator (GG) Turbine blades were also
successfully developed for the engine. So far 250 runs
have been completed successfully.
Once certified, the above engine programmes promise
self-reliance in the critical field of aero engines and
availability of core engine technological capabilities
within the country.


Interesting that it mentions DS blades while no mention of SCB. HTSE is supposed to have uncooled SCB as per its brochure. So question is whether these DS blades are for LPT or stop-gap for HPT itself..? We know that HAL has had tenders out for SCB blades and TBC coating for many years now. Difficult to connect dots here.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Sep 2019 01:16

The afterburner development for HTFE is also new. I would love to see what a modified Hawki powered by such an engine can do.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2019 04:09

JayS, Please try to develop a milestone chart for the HTFE25.


List tasks
Engine Design
Engine prototype
Testing Core I & II
Cold Light up
FMU
Reheat
PTAE Demo
HTFE mating

Draw a bar chart.
Put a few inverted triangles to designate achievement.

And fill in the triangles for task completed.

--- Does Jaguar come under 9 ton class aircraft?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 12 Sep 2019 04:32

ramana wrote:--- Does Jaguar come under 9 ton class aircraft?


Nope. MTOW of Jaguar is 15.7 tonne as per wiki.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2019 05:49

OK.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby sivab » 12 Sep 2019 07:14

^^^ HTFE-25 is non-AB. With AB, thrust will be 35-40kN and will be suitable for Jaguar. Adour is ~27kN dry and ~37.5kN wet. Question is whether they will develop AB version in time. As of now both HTFE-25 and AB are just protos.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 12 Sep 2019 08:25

Need to get it flying soon. Can it be tested in a Jag? Or does it have to fly in Roos?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 12 Sep 2019 09:38

Mango man question - Can we design a civilian business jet based on this engine?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 09:51

Back to need for a flying test bed. Lots of engines in many labs!

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 12 Sep 2019 11:40

ramana wrote:JayS, Please try to develop a milestone chart for the HTFE25.


List tasks
Engine Design
Engine prototype
Testing Core I & II
Cold Light up
FMU
Reheat
PTAE Demo
HTFE mating

Draw a bar chart.
Put a few inverted triangles to designate achievement.

And fill in the triangles for task completed.

--- Does Jaguar come under 9 ton class aircraft?

Can't promise, but will try.

I think the weight class they mentioned is Empty weight not Max TO weight. And that for non-A/B turbofan versions. Falcon 7x has 3x28kN engines and its MTOW is 33T while Basic Operating Weight (similar to operational empty weight of Fighter) of 16T.

2xHTFE-40 (AB + HTFE25) are good for Jaguar. I'd be surprised to see if HAL did not have this in mind since inception. The proposed Honewell F125IN engines has precisely 5760 lbf (25kN) Dry and 9080 lbf (40kN) Wet Thrust. Can't be coincidence.

With Honeywell deal down the drain we have ample time to develop HTFE40 for re-engining the Jags. At least the ones which are being upgraded to DARIN 3. But I don't know if IAF/HAL/MoD is even considering this option. Its doable in 5-7yrs from now of done at mission mode. That's good enough. Jags will remain with us for at least 20yrs from now. This is an opportunity which should be grabbed by both hands. We have a perfect matching engine and an well sorted out Fighter which needs re-engining. Else we will again be stuck in the new engine + new aircraft syndrome and next best option is IJT Sitara which is single engine jet so direct flight test on it is difficult. Since Jag is twin engine, it itself can act as flight test bed with one engine replaced by HTFE.

Ramana Saar, see if you can whisper this into some relevant ears.


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