Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2020 22:52

Rakesh wrote:Ready to partner India, transfer technology of jet engine: Safran
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 950370.cms
By Manu Pubby, 05 Feb 2020

After France, now UK pitches for joint development of future fighter jet engine
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 987992.cms
By Manu Pubby, 07 Feb 2020

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2020 22:57

Agupta & Maitya Sirs: Can we install this engine on HJT-36?

Drag & Drop pictures into new window for larger size....

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 11137?s=20 ---> HTFE-25 Core Engine Sea Level Trials Successful: The team of AERDC achieved a milestone with successful competition of Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine (HTFE)- 25 sea level trials at Tambaram Air Force Station, Chennai.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 92896?s=20 ----> Core engine of HTFE-25 was tested for various phases including starting trials with indigenously designed and developed Air Producer (AP) and Air Turbine Starter (ATS). Light-up trials with different fuel flow settings/air inlet temperature condition were carried out.

Image

Image

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2020 03:28

When the IAF starts retiring the non-DARIN3 upgraded Jaguars, HAL should acquire one as a test-bed for HTFE-25 based developments.

IAF has shelved plans to re-engine the Jaguars so we are unlikely to see HTFE-25 powered Jaguars in actual service.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby hanumadu » 09 Feb 2020 01:17

Updates on Kaveri - from around midway through the video. According to people from the DRDO stall at Defexpo, Kaveri is able to attain 81KN but its just not sustainable for longer periods. Screech and rumble solved.


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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 09 Feb 2020 03:09

F404 specs are dry thrust 48 KN and WET 79kn. Kaveri was always good with dry, wet had problems. Wet is now at 81 KN, not sustainable though. I think we have reached a stage where we need to put the dry and run it to refine it more (UCAV?), but maybe a MIG 29, one engine kaveri, just run non afterburner. When confidence/changes are done in AF mode, use that in that test bed. Theory is over, now time for practical testing.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2020 03:24

Very good news. Very happy if the Kaveri has achieved 81 kN. Sustainability will be the next goal.

Will wait for engine gurus to chime in.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2020 10:08

hanumadu wrote:Updates on Kaveri - from around midway through the video. According to people from the DRDO stall at Defexpo, Kaveri is able to attain 81KN but its just not sustainable for longer periods. Screech and rumble solved.


This is so unfortunate! I like his reporting. But for the Rustom II updates, he basically read out Anantha Krishnan's report without giving him any credit. Is this fair to a reporter who earns his bread through his writing?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2020 10:57

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:You are very close with those first order calculations. At AI'19, the gent presenting HTFE said that the engine can easily go up to 35 kN of thrust. I am assuming he meant dry thrust.

Above post belongs to gyan-only I made for you. Let me know if you are having a problem posting there.


Not dry but wet, in this context ie the intended Mil application. But in other context, as a high BPR civil jet engine for Business jet class like the Falcon series, it could.I think.

I am not so sure that he was speaking of wet thrust. I think we was speaking of materials. With a higher TET. See the quoted part below. I think with a 25 kN engine, they can easily get 40kN of wet thrust.

https://aquantumofmind.wordpress.com/2015/10/31/presentation-on-heat-resistant-coating-for-scbs-of-al-31fp-aeroindia-2015/
Q&A

Q: Why fan under loaded and HPC overloaded (looking at PR)?
A: Only core is being focused on right now. Fan/LPT design will change based on platform requirement.

Q: Surge margin for HPC targeted?
A: Not fixed. Normally its 14-19%.

Q: Which material for Turbine blades?
A: FOr IJT, TIT=1455K, so Inconel718 used. For AJT, something else can be used.

Q: What about Compressor?
A: Forged Titanium. And machined as blisks. Laser welding. First 4 stg = Ti, Last = Inconel718. HPC bolted – like in Al-55. First priority is to get Turbines and gearbox tested and validated (Other parts well within capability). Once this is done, core testing will go on for high altitude test etc, in parallel two (platform specific?) prototypes will be built.

Q: Why build 25kN engine when HAL license mfg same thrust class engines (adour-871 et al). Why not make Al-55 replacement?
A: Initially 20kN was proposed. Since Al-55 is ~17kN, a 20kN would have been good for IJT MK2. But the higher authorities went with 25kN. Wrt adour871 advantage in technology (smaller size, PR 11 vs 20, ~600mm vs ~450mm Turbine dia – huge turbine operating at lower rpm for Adour) , weight and size. So This engine while replacing Adour would give better performance. This engine can be used for Jagaur (which has 28kN engine) as well. Just need to change mounting points (and perhaps LP module?). Its very easy to adjust the design to various thrust levels by changing materials etc. Analysis already done. With similar core 35-40kN is achievable easily. SFC for this engine 0.72, better than older engines. 


HAL has a great engine on their hands. I wish they design an engine with ~36kN of dry thrust and ~54 kN of wet thrust. They can design an awesome AJT/LIFT based on that.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 09 Feb 2020 11:31

Then let’s get it in the air. Endurance can be solved while we work on the certification.

hanumadu wrote:Updates on Kaveri - from around midway through the video. According to people from the DRDO stall at Defexpo, Kaveri is able to attain 81KN but its just not sustainable for longer periods. Screech and rumble solved.


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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 09 Feb 2020 17:57

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:
Not dry but wet, in this context ie the intended Mil application. But in other context, as a high BPR civil jet engine for Business jet class like the Falcon series, it could.I think.

I am not so sure that he was speaking of wet thrust. I think we was speaking of materials. With a higher TET. See the quoted part below. I think with a 25 kN engine, they can easily get 40kN of wet thrust.

https://aquantumofmind.wordpress.com/2015/10/31/presentation-on-heat-resistant-coating-for-scbs-of-al-31fp-aeroindia-2015/
Q&A

Q: Why fan under loaded and HPC overloaded (looking at PR)?
A: Only core is being focused on right now. Fan/LPT design will change based on platform requirement.

Q: Surge margin for HPC targeted?
A: Not fixed. Normally its 14-19%.

Q: Which material for Turbine blades?
A: FOr IJT, TIT=1455K, so Inconel718 used. For AJT, something else can be used.

Q: What about Compressor?
A: Forged Titanium. And machined as blisks. Laser welding. First 4 stg = Ti, Last = Inconel718. HPC bolted – like in Al-55. First priority is to get Turbines and gearbox tested and validated (Other parts well within capability). Once this is done, core testing will go on for high altitude test etc, in parallel two (platform specific?) prototypes will be built.

Q: Why build 25kN engine when HAL license mfg same thrust class engines (adour-871 et al). Why not make Al-55 replacement?
A: Initially 20kN was proposed. Since Al-55 is ~17kN, a 20kN would have been good for IJT MK2. But the higher authorities went with 25kN. Wrt adour871 advantage in technology (smaller size, PR 11 vs 20, ~600mm vs ~450mm Turbine dia – huge turbine operating at lower rpm for Adour) , weight and size. So This engine while replacing Adour would give better performance. This engine can be used for Jagaur (which has 28kN engine) as well. Just need to change mounting points (and perhaps LP module?). Its very easy to adjust the design to various thrust levels by changing materials etc. Analysis already done. With similar core 35-40kN is achievable easily. SFC for this engine 0.72, better than older engines. 


HAL has a great engine on their hands. I wish they design an engine with ~36kN of dry thrust and ~54 kN of wet thrust. They can design an awesome AJT/LIFT based on that.


Thats my blog page btw and its from AI-2015. You said AI-2019. So I was thinking something else.

When HAL talks about 35-50kN for HTFE its always with A/B. Its not just about materials, whole aerothermodynamic design and system level architecture needs to be relooked at with such large change. The hot core has very limited organic growth potential with some refined redesign (called PIP in industry), typically ~2-3%. Unless some significant tech infusion happens something like from metallic to CMC blades, of that order (which is a huge change BTW), it wont give much bigger thrust without system level redesign. A big chunk of dry thrust can be changed thru tailoring LP system actually, but even then the total organic growth wont be larger than ~10%. Max 20% with all sorts of stuff added up.

HTFE uses uncooled blades. If one wants to extract significantly higher thrust with same air intake (proportionally higher intake would mean full redesign of core) means burning more fuel, that is much higher TIT. Though HTFE has a lot of margin on TIT as of now, any increase from current level would require introducing either CMC like material (currently even GE has not demonstrated CMC in HP, IIRC, rest are all lightyears behind) to keep uncooled blades, else introducing cooling for HPT/LPT blades. Introducing cooling is a tedious job, especially for a small engine. And it doesn't give the proportional benefit we may thing it would give, hiking TIT, because cooling takes up upto 25% of HPC output, proportionally reducing the air passing thru the combustion chamber. You can imagine the whole sizing of the engine would need a relook with such change. Then there is a matter of making cooling air channels/spaces in the engine, which would increase complexities of entire secondary air system by orders of magnitude. I'll leave it at this.

The Tech gap between HTFE and Kaveri is huge. But a Geometrically scaled larger engine with same tech level as HTFE can be built for 35kN dry thrust, but it will essentially be a different engine.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2020 21:52

The Japanese are the world leaders in CMC. GE is bringing that technology to bear in the LEAP engines.But IHI has already flown that their Xf5-1 engines which also uses CMCs in the their ShinShin X-2 aircraft. The XF5-1 generate 49 kN of wet thrust with an HTFE sized engine. The XF9 figures are even more spectacular.

That's why, I have been saying. Don't do all these ToT business with Safran etc. for next generation Kaveri. Collaborating with Japan could enable us to leapfrog a generation of engines.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 09 Feb 2020 22:03

Despite the PM's personal equation with the Japanese premier, we have not been able to bring a simple bird like US2. Even if we want to, the Japanese will not help us, given their sense of superiority over Asia and potentially creating another "China" to challenge that.

It doesn't help, we are in good terms with the US. Fear we might elbow them out...

Sadly, i don't see Japanese helping us in this venture..

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 09 Feb 2020 22:27

Indranil wrote:The Japanese are the world leaders in CMC. GE is bringing that technology to bear in the LEAP engines.But IHI has already flown that their Xf5-1 engines which also uses CMCs in the their ShinShin X-2 aircraft. The XF5-1 generate 49 kN of wet thrust with an HTFE sized engine. The XF9 figures are even more spectacular.

That's why, I have been saying. Don't do all these ToT business with Safran etc. for next generation Kaveri. Collaborating with Japan could enable us to leapfrog a generation of engines.


japan has always been rather wary of India.

They used India's nuclear explosion to tilt towards the pakis even though the pakis were up to all kinds of no good and outright hanky panky.

They want India's huge market and nothing more. So it wil be limited to cars, trains, and things of "low" high tech

India is being sold a pup by these guys. They want defence cooperation on their terms to counter china and have so far bamboozled us with hondas and suzukis and collaborating with japan will only get us more refrigerators, aircons and microwaves, period.

Engine tech we will never get from them.

they are only a few screwdriver turns away from long range missiles and nukes as well.

Under the ameriki nuke umbrella, they have had more than enough money saved from a true military budget to plough back into developing their economy.

They already had a very deep and widespread MIC before things went south for them at the end of WWII.

They have recovered well and consolidated their original strengths under the guise of an existential threat from the hans.

like the germans, they plan to rise again and will brook no upstarts in asia to slow them down.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby pandyan » 09 Feb 2020 22:39

Indranil wrote:The Japanese are the world leaders in CMC. GE is bringing that technology to bear in the LEAP engines.But IHI has already flown that their Xf5-1 engines which also uses CMCs in the their ShinShin X-2 aircraft. The XF5-1 generate 49 kN of wet thrust with an HTFE sized engine. The XF9 figures are even more spectacular.

That's why, I have been saying. Don't do all these ToT business with Safran etc. for next generation Kaveri. Collaborating with Japan could enable us to leapfrog a generation of engines.


What's in it for Japanese to collaborate with us saar?

why not just purchase required CMC tech?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 09 Feb 2020 22:55

The engine angle is worth persuing IMHO. The Japanese are advance but not established. If they can get another country to use their engines, it would be a coup for them against the Western monopoly.

We will never be able to get equal terms with GE/PW/RR/SaFran. We can with IHI. At least the chances are better.

That said, we need to realize that Japan is also an Asian power and as such they will have their own agenda. Not least, they play their own game with Cheen. Not sure many of us realize that Japan is the original holder of the Japan-Korea-China Trilateral Summit which aims to unite Northeast Asia. Obviously, an EU-like setup of the chini-type races would be immensely powerful and the Japanese like any rational power would pursue it. We just need to know and understand their game as well.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2020 23:31

The Japanese have had ample opportunity to participate in one of India’s most high value military contests - Project 75I. But they never committed to the contest. The Soryu Class is leaps and bounds ahead on any other boat in the P75I contest. Then Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar even asked them to participate. Still they were non-committal.

On what basis will they assist India in developing a low bypass turbofan?

Saurav Jha is right. Safran and Rolls Royce are the leading contenders in the 110 kN turbofan project for AMCA.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 10 Feb 2020 00:04

Rakesh wrote:Saurav Jha is right. Safran and Rolls Royce are the leading contenders in the 110 kN turbofan project for AMCA.

Admiral, you are correct. The Japanese angle is just an interesting angle to look at. The reality is it will be one of the western firms.

But I think we will also need to face a reality that the 110kN engine might end up like our AL-31 for the MKI. We will make this engine even with a large major of Indian part but we can use it for AMCA onlee. I hope not but what are the chances they will help us build an engine that will lead to our independence?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 10 Feb 2020 00:31

Rakesh wrote:The Japanese have had ample opportunity to participate in one of India’s most high value military contests - Project 75I. But they never committed to the contest. The Soryu Class is leaps and bounds ahead on any other boat in the P75I contest. Then Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar even asked them to participate. Still they were non-committal.

All this fantasizing about some sort of bi-lateral cooperation with Japan on either propulsion, or 5th generation aircraft technologies completely disregard some of the most important factors and that is experience in executing such deals. The Japanese defense bureaucracy and system just doesn't do these sort of deals and the little that they do is almost always with one partner that is clearly in a dominant position. Those who work on the US-Japan AEGIS partnership, which by all accounts is extensive and successful, describe making minor tweaks and changes as "fighting a hundred battles" as it is extremely slow to come to a consensus and move ahead.
Last edited by brar_w on 10 Feb 2020 00:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Feb 2020 00:33

Let them supply the part(s). We can design the engine. That's the same setup they have with GE/Safran.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 10 Feb 2020 00:55

Japan doesn't have the policy framework for largescale arms exports. It is still anathema to them. Technological collaboration and interaction is something palatable to them, but outright bidding in products is something that would get lost in their internecine domestic politics very quickly, and pretty much any leader would quietly sidestep the idea just to avoid stepping on domestic political landmines.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby csaurabh » 12 Feb 2020 14:21

https://www.defencexp.com/view-blog.php?cid=280

Country Lacks Testing Facilities for Aircraft Engines: Kota Harinarayana

One of the reasons for the delay in developing the indigenous Kaveri Engine for fighter aircraft is the lack of testing facilities in the country, aircraft designer and the father of Light Combat Aircraft, Kota Harinarayana, said. He was talking at the IIT-Industry conclave organised by the IIT-Alumni Centre (IIT-ACB) Bengaluru on Saturday.
Kota said a facility to test each of the modules — the fan, compressor, combustor, turbine, nozzle — before validation is necessary. “With the best of the engineers, I have to go through three or four iterations.” ven for a small test one has to go to Russia or elsewhere, making it a time-consuming process and leaving very little opportunity to scale up or down, test and validate the components, he added.
India does not even have a fully functional wind tunnel facility. Nor does it have a facility to simulate an engine that will work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above ground, he pointed out. All these decades we have been talking about the engine without giving the infrastructure to do the job, he added.
While the LCA was backed by a national team — with the IITs, academia, and R&D laboratories joining in, a similar system was not put in places in case of the development of the Kaveri engine, he said.
Kota said that the engine was fit for use in an unmanned combat air vehicle. However, there is still a long way to go for an unmanned combat fighter aircraft and fifth generation fighter jet.
Highlighting the ‘jugaad’ solution to problems in India, he said Indians do not believe in systems, processes, systems engineering and tend to lose more time.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nash » 14 Feb 2020 00:55

https://www.isro.gov.in/high-altitude-f ... ccessfully

.... in high altitude simulation test facility during December 2016.

To test the Engine at flight identical conditions, High Altitude Test (HAT) facility was established at IPRC, Mahendragiri.



It may be a stupid question but is it possible to use or build facility like IPRC, Mahendragiri to simulate high altitude testing of Jet Engine?

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 14 Feb 2020 00:59

nash wrote:
https://www.isro.gov.in/high-altitude-f ... ccessfully

.... in high altitude simulation test facility during December 2016.

To test the Engine at flight identical conditions, High Altitude Test (HAT) facility was established at IPRC, Mahendragiri.



It may be a stupid question but is it possible to use or build facility like IPRC, Mahendragiri to simulate high altitude testing of Jet Engine?


No, air density, air speed, environmental buffeting, etc. cannot be recreated on a ground lab with 100% certainty. You can't even do that with a car engine. Must be trialed in a vehicle to finalize test results.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby nash » 14 Feb 2020 01:33

chola wrote:
nash wrote:
It may be a stupid question but is it possible to use or build facility like IPRC, Mahendragiri to simulate high altitude testing of Jet Engine?


No, air density, air speed, environmental buffeting, etc. cannot be recreated on a ground lab with 100% certainty. You can't even do that with a car engine. Must be trialed in a vehicle to finalize test results.


It is simulation so we cannot get 100% flight environment. In the article posted above, Kota Harinarayan said "... Nor does it have a facility to simulate an engine that will work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above ground, he pointed out".

Done some googling, got this:

https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 1-01-2972/

A High Altitude Test Program has been recently completed by Pratt & Whitney in conjunction with NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration) and MTU (Motoren-und Turbinen-Union, Munchen GmbH) to test an instrumented, “off-the-shelf”, commercial turbofan engine to altitudes >65,000 ft for suitability for high altitude applications.
The two-phase test program has been conducted at the Propulsion Systems Laboratory of the Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio. The 1st phase (Aug ‘99) investigated the basic performance and operability characteristics in order to identify any shortcomings. The 2nd phase (May ‘01) investigated the response to inlet distortion and high power off-takes, and included extensive steady state and transient instrumentation in the low pressure turbine for the correlation of analytical predictions.


There are other similar example here:

https://www.arnold.af.mil/About-Us/Fact ... -facility/

this one i think is Japanese:

http://www.aero.jaxa.jp/publication/pam ... cility.pdf


Not sure do we have these kind of facility in India to test the jet engine.


There are

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2020 02:13

csaurabh wrote:https://www.defencexp.com/view-blog.php?cid=280

Country Lacks Testing Facilities for Aircraft Engines: Kota Harinarayana

One of the reasons for the delay in developing the indigenous Kaveri Engine for fighter aircraft is the lack of testing facilities in the country, aircraft designer and the father of Light Combat Aircraft, Kota Harinarayana, said. He was talking at the IIT-Industry conclave organised by the IIT-Alumni Centre (IIT-ACB) Bengaluru on Saturday.
Kota said a facility to test each of the modules — the fan, compressor, combustor, turbine, nozzle — before validation is necessary. “With the best of the engineers, I have to go through three or four iterations.” Even for a small test one has to go to Russia or elsewhere, making it a time-consuming process and leaving very little opportunity to scale up or down, test and validate the components, he added.
India does not even have a fully functional wind tunnel facility. Nor does it have a facility to simulate an engine that will work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above ground, he pointed out. All these decades we have been talking about the engine without giving the infrastructure to do the job, he added.
While the LCA was backed by a national team — with the IITs, academia, and R&D laboratories joining in, a similar system was not put in places in case of the development of the Kaveri engine, he said.

Kota said that the engine was fit for use in an unmanned combat air vehicle. However, there is still a long way to go for an unmanned combat fighter aircraft and fifth generation fighter jet.
Highlighting the ‘jugaad’ solution to problems in India, he said Indians do not believe in systems, processes, systems engineering and tend to lose more time.



From the outset the Kaveri was setup to fail.
No national team support system,
No testing facilities.
And low level of funding.
Its a miracle that the team produced the engine so far.

Its great that the Kaveri was de-linked to the Tejas right in the beginning for the plan looks like was to fail both.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Feb 2020 12:14

We desperately need a test bed aircraft and test beds to test these engines. Hope some one takes the right decesion.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 21 Feb 2020 12:30

Trump Uncle intending to stop LEAP engine sales to China's C919 programme should open the eyes of mandarins in MOD about importance of self reliance in this field. Extremely unsettling that our entire 30 year effort in Tejas programme is presently still dependant on whims and fancies of US govt .
It would be a good idea for Tejas Mk2\ MWF to be certified on EJ 200 also.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Feb 2020 13:17

There need to be two programs for engines at the minimum

1. FIX Kaveri
- Bring it to 55/85 KN specs of F404, so a replacement for GE404 is available in 5 years time

2. Work on a parallel program for the 70/115KN engine for AMCA available in 10 years' time.

Hopefully, the govt is paying attention to both the requirements carefully.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 21 Feb 2020 18:04

arvin wrote:Trump Uncle intending to stop LEAP engine sales to China's C919 programme should open the eyes of mandarins in MOD about importance of self reliance in this field. Extremely unsettling that our entire 30 year effort in Tejas programme is presently still dependant on whims and fancies of US govt .
It would be a good idea for Tejas Mk2\ MWF to be certified on EJ 200 also.


We need MONEY in the Kaveri program to carry it over the finish line.

But instead the program got a pathetic $500m over its whole development life while we are preparing to spend $5B on phoren helicopters that directly compete with LUH and LCH.

We are one of greatest defense importers on earth but so cheap on critical indigenous programs. We deserve it if we are embargoed.

SaiK
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 13 Apr 2020 16:56


SidSoma
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby SidSoma » 14 Apr 2020 11:05

I am just waiting for testing and flying testbed to be set up for Engines. I don't understand how this is not being done. How are we expecting a working engine without building blocks in place. Shows poorly on leadership

basant
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby basant » 15 Apr 2020 14:11


Rapid prototyping model technique for quick fabrication. This article may be of some relevance in the context.

Vivek K
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 24 Apr 2020 22:55

nachiket wrote:
Nilanjan wrote:Just money of 3 rafale can give us a new higher thrust engine and a jet far superior than f-22

It is not just a question of throwing money at the problem. The Chinese have sunk many times that amount into various engine programs by now and they are still catching up with the Russians, forget the Americans.

SCB tech is the biggest unknown. Midhani should be funded to scale up their achievements. SU-30 came with deep TOT so this should be available there. Layman question - Aren't satellite launch vehicles and re-entry vehicles (HSP and ballistic missiles) subjected to higher temps than turbine blades? Didn't ISRO demo a heat shield for its re-entry vehicle? Why can't that metallurgy be used to create better blades?

Aditya_V
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Apr 2020 11:09

We also need basics like Wind Tunnels, IL76/ 747-400 Test aircraft, a few twin fighters to test, plus software to understand the data. To the average Cunning/ Bargaining Babu these are all waste of money.

People in India like to forward/ take credit/ be very smart. Why read a textbook get 10 pages of Notes someone else has written mentality. Too many people have risen through contacts rather than hard work, so they dont understand the difficulties of someone developing something. They want to show their usefulness in trying to dominate the scientist

Roop
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Roop » 25 Apr 2020 13:20

Nilanjan wrote:Just money of 3 rafale can give us a new higher thrust engine and a jet far superior than f-22


You know, I'm all for optimism and all that good stuff, but this is not optimism, it's delusion. Kaveri is still not approved for fighter aircraft but India can pull some kind of magic trick and go storming past the achievements of not only China/Russia but also the US?

Karan M
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Apr 2020 13:49

Hope springs eternal! Good to have some fresh optimism from folks once in a while, otherwise we all get stuck in cynicism and a feeling of hopelessness.

Meanwhile, this year, Dr Saraswat was to release a plan for resuscitating the Kaveri/jet engine program.

A new program is underway to make a stealthy Kaveri derivative for the UCAV.

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 25 Apr 2020 13:59

A noob pooch: Why did GTRE go for a Turbo Shaft engine as the first attempt??
Could they have not started with a Turboprop which could have found multiple usage with growing needs for small/medium aircraft both civilian and military in the country?
Is Turbo-prop tech same/complex/more difficult compared to Turboshaft.
I know there was an engine needed for LCA, but could they have not started either separately or together with Kaveri project!!

dinesh_kimar
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 25 Apr 2020 14:27

Air Marshal SN Roy Chaudhury , as head of GTRE, had actually built the derivative, the GTX37-14UB turbofan following the GTX-37 turbojet.

This turbofan was tested to 88 KN thrust.

(Essentially a lab project to see if development is possible, called a "feasibility study").

He was actually a designer of engines, having built the first jet engine in India, a Goblin derived working model.

So, an expert who knew the actual working conditions, "been there done that" kind of person.

He concluded that as a first step, GTRE should go for joint development with manufacturing in India.

One proposal was a SNECMA ATAR derivative with GTRE parts for a Mig 21 type of fighter.

Second was a Rolls Royce Adour derivative for a ground attack fighter (something like a re-engined Marut, approx. 2 x 40 KN thrust).

However, " 4 high priests in GTRE colluded against me, and cancelled the project the day I retired in 1981".

After this, the Kaveri was greenlighted, for better or for worse. We have to accept this now and move on.

With all our ups and downs in the program, I still hope the original goals are met, of 81 KN thrust , 1100 kg and a MTBF of 1500 hours or better.

These specs can power the Tejas, and will be the base for our future engine manufacturing endeavours.

(BTW, I think you mean turbojet and turbofan)

chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2020 15:09

SidSoma wrote:I am just waiting for testing and flying testbed to be set up for Engines. I don't understand how this is not being done. How are we expecting a working engine without building blocks in place. Shows poorly on leadership


one is afraid that one may have a somewhat longish wait.

The govt has cut funding across the board rather drastically because of the economic downturn and the aftermath of the chinese virus, hence the freeze on almost all defence spending.

funds are being reappropriated and are being diverted, mostly to social and allied sectors

chola
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 25 Apr 2020 15:41

^^^ Just two years ago with the Rafale offsets we were expecting a renewed testing of the Kaveri, a new core from the M88 and even an enlarged version for the SU-30MKI. So much happy talk. But relying on others for something that everyone else protects as their family jewels was never going to work.

We need to bite bullet and invest, as a GE CEO once said, in the billions and for decades on end.


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