Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Arun KS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 8
Joined: 16 Nov 2009 16:24

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Arun KS » 01 Jan 2010 10:26

Talking of the GTRE-SNECMA JV, I wish it shouldn't be like CFM international a JV by GE and SNECMA for medium thrust engines. JV hardly had any ToT and what they used to do was that , GE used to make the core and SNECMA the low temp region under the supervision of GE. I hope this does not happen with GTRE-SNECMA.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17051
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 01 Jan 2010 12:20

agupta wrote:
Rahul M wrote: MOD (mis)managed GTRE on its own and kept DRDO out of the loop.



errm... rahul - could u clarify what u meant here ? MoD's link to GTRE is the DRDO mgt/leadership..its not a DoD PSU like MDNL that MOD can (mis)manage on its own. I can't recall any time in the last 2 decades where what your saying here could apply... GTRE has always been "(mis)managed" just fine by DRDO itself ... they unfortunately made some claims they couldn't wiggle out of (OR) never had the guts or means to stand up to multiple SAs promising their political masters "2 more years to IOC" uncountable number of times. Enough hard working people in BLR/HYD/DRDO had to make do with squirming and looking at their feet at their bosses lying to the press then that it was truly sad to watch

this is what I came to know from someone I consider very reliable, that through the 90's GTRE was being managed directly by MOD itself. of course, you are free to disbelieve this nugget !
agupta wrote:.......

oops, yes I meant DMRL onlee !

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24189
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SSridhar » 04 Jan 2010 09:57

Shri Saraswat on Kaveri
The engine had performed exceedingly well in high-altitude tests in Russia, Dr. Saraswat said. “We want to use the Kaveri engine for the advanced medium combat aircraft. It will also power ships.”

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Sagar G » 04 Jan 2010 19:09

SSridhar wrote:Shri Saraswat on Kaveri
The engine had performed exceedingly well in high-altitude tests in Russia, Dr. Saraswat said. “We want to use the Kaveri engine for the advanced medium combat aircraft. It will also power ships.”


:)

I hope the engine parameters are also released soon.

pralay
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 519
Joined: 24 May 2009 23:07
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby pralay » 04 Jan 2010 22:47

Umrao Das wrote:Why need collobrations in the age of mega flop computing power of CDAC?


Computer models are based on statistics and principles/assumptions. Real testing and validation is must to get data to make computer models.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2010 01:03

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=12187
The DRDO is thinking of installing the indigenous Kaveri engine in Tejas. But the engine has had multiple problems and French company Snecma is currently working on it.


The Navy might be forced to test Tejas with the current General Electric F404 engine. The test will ascertain its flight characteristics and whether its structural strength is sufficient for carrier deployment. When Tejas is fitted with Kaveri, the Navy will start operating it from a carrier. Reports said the Tejas naval variant was supposed to be ready for carrier trials by 2013.


multiple problems.. any chiwaalas with biskoot news on these?
sameer_shelavale wrote:
Umrao Das wrote:Why need collobrations in the age of mega flop computing power of CDAC?


Computer models are based on statistics and principles/assumptions. Real testing and validation is must to get data to make computer models.

OT: Hope these assumptions are correct and real testing and validations are not required for our 200kt thermonuclear weapons.

The fact that CDAC can help is important, and this how France, America and the leading precision engineering nations done it.

We can do it the same from the first principles is what mr. snow says. This is important to any real jingo.

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Sagar G » 10 Jan 2010 01:40

multiple problems.. any chiwaalas with biskoot news on these?


Saar just a few post above your's says something totally different

The engine had performed exceedingly well in high-altitude tests in Russia, Dr. Saraswat said. “We want to use the Kaveri engine for the advanced medium combat aircraft. It will also power ships.”

jaladipc
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 20:51
Location: i CAN ADA

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby jaladipc » 10 Jan 2010 03:46

Sorry for my late posting in the Kaveri thread.
Am I missing something or what?

If my memory stands correct,I remember like some 5 or 6 years ago... BARC transfered the technology of Single crystals that can withstand 1000`s of degrees temperature which can be used in gas turbines and at the same time they did transfered the technology to HAL regarding shape memory alloys for use in Tejas.
And now again why is all this rant about the lack of material technology in india?
Isnt it conformed that GTRE lacked the balls to realize kaveri given the technology/materials and money/time?

JimmyJ
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 03:36
Location: Bangalore

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 11 Jan 2010 14:52

This may be a newbie question, but still

The question is why was Kaveri designed as a flat rated engine and is it true that no other flat rated engine are available as a replacement ? If so why was Kaveri designed differently while the world moved in a different direction?

I have virtually zero knowledge about engines, this question popped up while going through an article on aircraft engines, the link is below

http://www.aircraftenginedesign.com/custom.html4.html

http://www.boeing-727.com/Data/engine/F ... ating.html

Could not find much more about these on the web, would be glad if pointed to a good source to look at the jargons. :)

Willy
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 18 Jan 2005 01:58

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Willy » 16 Jan 2010 09:17

Why dont they design the Kaveri with Thrust vectoring now itself. If its going to power the MCA that should be one of the pre-requisites.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4850
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Neshant » 28 Jan 2010 13:25

GTRE probably got cold feet from being the one holding up the entire LCA project and decided to junk the kaveri project. The word joint venture is used with SNECMA but the reality is India is paying to buy an engine developed in France thereby subsidizing French R&D at great cost. That is really sad.

I don't think the lack of funding is a problem. I'm certain GOI would gladly throw in a half billion dollars more if there was some hope that GTRE could finish the project on it own.

Lack of experienced scientists/engineers who have not had the same opportunities/exposure as western engineers have (to incubate & grow in private sector engineering/aerospace firms) might perhaps be the problem. Also the lack of a supply chain/support base of small/mid scale engineering companies or even a basic manufacturing base might be another problem.

In fact India does not even have a single company developing & producing cell phones indegenously. Its all imported from China and elsewhere and renamed.

jaladipc
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 20:51
Location: i CAN ADA

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby jaladipc » 28 Jan 2010 17:41

JimmyJ wrote:This may be a newbie question, but still

The question is why was Kaveri designed as a flat rated engine and is it true that no other flat rated engine are available as a replacement ? If so why was Kaveri designed differently while the world moved in a different direction?


a very good question in indeed.though I am not an expert,I will put them at my best.
Since India is only one of those countries which has demanding environments right from highest peaks to sub low ranges and highest humidity to lowest and hotest to coldest,an aircraft operating on the Indian land mass will have to go through all kinds of extremes and such demanding conditions demands a challenging engine.And a Flat rated engine allows to operate under such demanding conditions, without the need for extra structural strengthening due to higher peak power output of the engine.
In this case the turbine output will always remain the same more or less, but when atmospheric conditions such as high temperatures and high altitude reduce the power output of the engine it has more headroom before it falls below the limited maximum output( this bit from wiki)

Craig Alpert
BRFite
Posts: 1440
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 17:36
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 29 Jan 2010 00:22

Neshant wrote:In fact India does not even have a single company developing & producing cell phones indegenously. Its all imported from China and elsewhere and renamed.

:(( How does a country who has more mobile users than US NOT have their own R&D to produce CELL PHONES??? :x
:idea: microMAX
:idea: INTEX
:idea: Karbonn Mobiles - JUST 9 months old!
:idea: ONIDA
:idea: VIDEOCON
:idea: SPICE
get the point Genius??

ADDED L8R: Could go on 4 more, but don't wanna deviate from letting this thread go OT.

JimmyJ
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 03:36
Location: Bangalore

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 29 Jan 2010 11:11

jaladipc wrote:a very good question in indeed.though I am not an expert,I will put them at my best.
Since India is only one of those countries which has demanding environments right from highest peaks to sub low ranges and highest humidity to lowest and hotest to coldest,an aircraft operating on the Indian land mass will have to go through all kinds of extremes and such demanding conditions demands a challenging engine.And a Flat rated engine allows to operate under such demanding conditions, without the need for extra structural strengthening due to higher peak power output of the engine.
In this case the turbine output will always remain the same more or less, but when atmospheric conditions such as high temperatures and high altitude reduce the power output of the engine it has more headroom before it falls below the limited maximum output( this bit from wiki)


Thanks a lot jaladipc, thats gives a practical reason for having a flat rated engine. Other than India, doesn't US too face the same issue? They are a world wide operator and probably experience similar situation. Also there planes are sold world wide. Wouldn't it be better for them too to have a flat rated engine?

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9265
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 26 Feb 2010 12:58

Any updates on the kaveri? Is the project dead? Just wondering.

aditp
BRFite
Posts: 447
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 07:25
Location: Autoland

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby aditp » 26 Feb 2010 16:55

Big Boss DRDO recently said that the Kaveri is in flight testing phase. Probably still in Russia.

Bheem
BRFite
Posts: 161
Joined: 12 Sep 2005 10:27
Location: Vyom

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Bheem » 26 Feb 2010 17:44

Craig Alpert wrote:
Neshant wrote:In fact India does not even have a single company developing & producing cell phones indegenously. Its all imported from China and elsewhere and renamed.

:(( How does a country who has more mobile users than US NOT have their own R&D to produce CELL PHONES??? :x
:idea: microMAX
:idea: INTEX
:idea: Karbonn Mobiles - JUST 9 months old!
:idea: ONIDA
:idea: VIDEOCON
:idea: SPICE
get the point Genius??

ADDED L8R: Could go on 4 more, but don't wanna deviate from letting this thread go OT.


I thought all these are chinese assemblies??????

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17051
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 26 Feb 2010 18:30

^^^ plz take this cellphone discussion elsewhere.

aditp
BRFite
Posts: 447
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 07:25
Location: Autoland

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby aditp » 07 Apr 2010 14:32

India to flight-test first indigenous jet engine next month

Deccan Herald on 07-Apr-10 wrote:Bangalore, Apr 7 (PTI)

After two decades of research and development, India is all set to flight-test its first indigenously developed jet engine next month, an official said on Wednesday.

"Kaveri engine will be flight-tested in one-and-half months... Should be after middle of May," Director of Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a DRDO lab, T Mohana Rao, said.

It would be flight-tested using the IL-76 aircraft in Russia, he said. The Kaveri engine, meant for India's fighter jet, the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, has completed all simulation and altitude tests. The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success", he said.
GTRE officials said around Rs 3,000 crore has been spent on the Kaveri project.

Rao said GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 50 kg from 60 kg. "It has to be fine-tuned. We will go in for lot of optimisation in future".

GTRE, which is engaged in research and development of gas turbines for military aircraft, has so far developed nine Kaveri engines and four Kabini (core of Kaveri). "All engines have been tested to full potential," he added.



Adminullahs, please provide a bhangra emoticon :mrgreen:

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17051
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 07 Apr 2010 14:43

dilli abhi dur hai.

pralay
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 519
Joined: 24 May 2009 23:07
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby pralay » 07 Apr 2010 15:14

Rao said GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 50 kg from 60 kg. "It has to be fine-tuned. We will go in for lot of optimisation in future".


bhere thij 50kg-60kg numbars came fram ? bhat is thij weighing 50-60kg ekjactly ? is the Kabini core ?

Venu
BRFite
Posts: 161
Joined: 26 Oct 2009 17:23
Location: rimbola..rimbola

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Venu » 07 Apr 2010 15:38

It should have been 'GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine by 50 kg to 60 kg' , probably.

arya
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 82
Joined: 29 Oct 2009 17:48
Location: Kanyakubj Nagre

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby arya » 07 Apr 2010 16:14

50 from 60 kg :eek:
anyway good to hear anything new about KAVERI :lol:

wilson_th
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 14:16

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby wilson_th » 07 Apr 2010 19:39

The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success",
.... I think this is the first confirmation of the last Altitude test in Russia... how fast can we incoorporate the engine into LCA?, Is the success another reason for the delay in identifying a foreign engine?

karan_mc
BRFite
Posts: 700
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karan_mc » 07 Apr 2010 20:05

Kaveri powering a Tejas PV will only be ceremonial and should be done only after PV Tejas have completed major work needed for IOC AND FOC ,may be by end of 2011 ,if i remember correctly GTRE wanted to test fly it by end of 2010 and i don't think it is possible at all

VinayG
BRFite
Posts: 181
Joined: 07 Apr 2010 19:02
Location: chicago

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby VinayG » 07 Apr 2010 20:06

any news about the marine verson

Venu
BRFite
Posts: 161
Joined: 26 Oct 2009 17:23
Location: rimbola..rimbola

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Venu » 07 Apr 2010 20:32

^^ last I heard, it is under evaluation by IN.

However, we need larger and more powerful versions of it, to move our naval behemoths.

Can say, it is still years away.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5348
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kartik » 07 Apr 2010 21:09

wilson_th wrote: I think this is the first confirmation of the last Altitude test in Russia... how fast can we incoorporate the engine into LCA?, Is the success another reason for the delay in identifying a foreign engine?


it will first have to be used on a twin engined fighter which can accomodate it so that there is redundancy in case it has issues in flight..

most likely candidate fighter for the Kaveri will be a MiG-29 since the RD-33 weight, thrust and CG characteristics will be somewhat close to that of Kaveri's..the Jaguar, Su-30MKI, etc. either use much smaller (Adour) or larger (Al-31FP) engines.

And no, the Kaveri program is for all intents and purposes delinked from the Tejas Mk1 since the first 2 Tejas squadrons will fly with the F404 IN20 engine. and there is no way in hell that the Kaveri can meet the additional 90+kN thrust requirements for the Tejas Mk2.

Mitsy
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 9
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 00:14

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Mitsy » 07 Apr 2010 21:15

Deccan Herald on 07-Apr-10 wrote:
Rao said GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 50 kg from 60 kg. "It has to be fine-tuned. We will go in for lot of optimisation in future".




First post here.. have been following Kaveri development keenly given the importance the same has for India's future defence infra fulfillment..

The greatest positive which probably can be taken out from this news is that GTRE has not given up and is now looking at incremental improvements in the Kaveri engine as the way to go.
Tie up with snecma would probably have been the short cut. The real learnings and indigenous tech competency development will come from working on incrementally improving the existing design onlee..

Great news!

maitya
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 492
Joined: 02 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 07 Apr 2010 21:23

Continuing from the LCA thread ...
neerajb wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:How this engine is supposted to be tested gurus. On one LCA or some other aircraft. I thought our people done lot of testing in Russia on some Russian aircraft. Is there any clear news on that.


Above link says this:

It would be flight-tested using the IL-76 aircraft in Russia, he said.


Cheers....

To add to that ... it'd be most probably tested on IL-76LL testbed and, when installed on one of the engine pylons/stations, most probably will look like one of the following:

For testing SAM146 engine

For testing the NK-93 engine

jaladipc
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 20:51
Location: i CAN ADA

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby jaladipc » 07 Apr 2010 21:38

The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success", he said.


The report is misleading.Because the high altitude testing was completed in Russia before.Probably this might be something related to integration with Tejas?


PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby PratikDas » 08 Apr 2010 02:01


This is great news! There was always this fear, at least in my mind, that the bureaucrats would screw things up by abandoning the indigenous effort.

There must have been some promising signs for this support to be warranted.

But is 100 cr enough?

The same Economic Times page has another news article - Two mega highway proj for Rs 7800 cr to be bid out in 2 months. So thats the value we associate to a national jet engine, 1/39th the cost of a mega highway.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2010 03:36

Two observations on engine vs. highways.

Highways are needed - sorely needed in India. India is too backward in infrastructure, far too backward. I have not kept up with the cost of road construction, but assuming these figures are valid, the ROI would/should be huge. That ROI perhaps can contribute later on to provide more funds for other projects like a sustained effort for engines.

The engine funding project seems to me is in its infancy. Since they are funding multiple projects I would expect them to provide more funds when some projects mature down the line.

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby merlin » 08 Apr 2010 10:55

jaladipc wrote:
The altitude tests in Russia in February were a "grand success", he said.


The report is misleading.Because the high altitude testing was completed in Russia before.Probably this might be something related to integration with Tejas?


High altitude testing would have been done in simulated conditions and not in an Il-76. Kaveri will *only now* undergo testing on an Il-76.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 08 Apr 2010 13:27



Well, this was Enqyoob ud-din-e-Gas-Turbiney's pet wish. Too bad he has become ghaayab, gone away, hiding in boorqa to not be singing hosannas to a good initiative.

All the same, now that the tests are done, it is time for the rubber to hit the road for the Kaveri.

What they were doing was to sling the Kaveri down in a cradle from the underside of a IL-76 testbed . Really doubt if the IL-76 was flying on Kaveri's power. This time, they will replace one of the engines of the IL-76 with the Kaveri and it will have to pull it's weight and more in keeping the plane flying along with the other 3 engines. I guess they would test it for 150 hrs or so before it is flight qualified and after that it can be fitted into the PV-1 for trials on the LCA.

Things are looking good. Keep fingers crossed folks.

Kailash
BRFite
Posts: 1062
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 02:32

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Kailash » 08 Apr 2010 16:12

Same news, more details

The scope of the GATET Initiative is to invite & sanction projects to various academic and other Research Institutions as per the following six areas of specialization:

- Compressor & Fan :- Stall and Surge Studies, Blade Design & Fluid Structure Interaction Studies, Tip Clearance Studies.

- Combustor, Afterburner and Nozzle :- Combustion & Flame Stabilization Studies, Multiphase Flows and Fuel Injector Studies, Thrust Vectoring.

- Turbine / Heat Transfer :- Blade Design & Cooling, Fluid flow and Heat Transfer, Large-Eddy Simulation

- Engine Mathematical Model & Simulation, Controls and System Engineering :- Multivariable Control Schemes, Life Cycle Management, MDO for Gas Turbine Application.

- Sensors and Measurement Devices :- Design, Development and Calibration of Sensors including Non-Intrusive Sensors for High Temperature Measurements.

- Unsteady CFD / Structure Interaction and Mechanical aspects of Turbo-machinery:- Engine/Module/Sub-System simulation using CFD, Aero Elastic study of Turbo-Machinery Blades and Control of Blade Flutter, Evaluation for Surface cracks in Gas Turbine Components and Structures, Surface Crack Growth Prediction, Life Prediction Methodologies, Magnetic Bearing/Seals.


Good that they are chasing basic research. Great that this is not linked with a customer GSQR which is prone to shifting. Let them come of up with a roadmap - a series of engines to learn and demonstrate the technology, materials etc.

The use for those powerplants and cutom(er)izations will obviously follow!!


narmad
BRFite
Posts: 222
Joined: 10 May 2005 09:47
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby narmad » 09 Apr 2010 22:47

looks like some babu is really following BRF discussions

maitya
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 492
Joined: 02 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 09 Apr 2010 23:17

narmad wrote:looks like some babu is really following BRF discussions

Ummm, I'm not so sure - as, with nothing on Turbine metallurgy (aka superalloys and SC blades etc.) or "deployable" advanced manufacturing processes thereof(of Turbine), a point that has been belaboured in BR for almost 2-3 years now as to being the "achilees heel" for this program, it appears one of those good-but-incomplete attempt to fix this problem/issue.

Yes, of course, it doesn't really fall under GTRE's remit (maybe DMRL's domain) but when the attempt is to reach out to the institutes for theoretical and applied research why not go the whole hog.
:-?


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ks_sachin, rajkumar and 56 guests