Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Rahul M
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Postby Rahul M » 19 Dec 2007 12:52

and Indian pvt industry has done what in these field ??

how do you propose to jump-start turbofan R&D in the Indian pvt industry(IPI) ??
engine development takes decades of dedicated research, data collection and analysis.
add to that the amount of research in materials that would be required to develop the top end engine blades.

you have yourself cited the case of MTU. although it is wrong to think it was the only source in engine research. england was also an important source of jet engine tech. both russian and US engine tech were jump started by these two.
even then, russia is still (and always was) behind the west in engine tech, mostly because it has no cooperation with other countries.

and remember, GTRE is not trying to develop a 70's era turbojet engine. kaveri is designed to have much better peformance than the russian engines and even better than the f-404's when it comes to customising the particular and demanding requirements of the tejas.

GTRE even with its lapses, remains the only organisation other than HAL with the relevant experts and equipment to develop engines in India.

The IPI has done nothing in this regard so far, nor has it shown any willingness to pour funds,effort and money into a time consuming and potentially fruitless project.

and if engine development was as easy as you think it is, why do you think none other than the UK,US,Russians and the french develop them ??

even the chinese, with a budget many many times ours and after going to the extent of "buying" off russian experts after the fall of the FSU and having in place more than one very dedicated teams have failed to come up with anything.

just a few days back they were trying to smuggle in a F-16 engine for studying.

let me tell you, the kaveri is already better than this engine !! :wink:

oh, and BTW, as a new comer , plz note
your name is violating regulations.
you should have read this :
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Guidelines.html

also, better lurk for some time to get the hang of things than post something on the lines of "I have a soln for DRDO/HAL/IAF/IA/IN/XYZ".

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Postby Neela » 19 Dec 2007 12:56

Innovation,

here is a advice/warning....this thread has high tempers and shouldnt be the place for you to start on BRF. I suggest you lurk around for some time, read , know the place before you start posting.

And your handle does not follow forum guidelines.

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Rolls-Royce - Can it help?????

Postby Sona R » 19 Dec 2007 12:56

Rolls Royce is another party which can be tapped-

35% of Rolls Royce aero-engine are sold in north america

Rollys-Royce has partnership with BMW of Germany

http://www.rolls-royce.com/deutschland/en/activities/default.htm

http://www.rolls-royce.com/northamerica/

Why no attempt is made to take roll-royce help to solve kaveri engine problem

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Re: Rolls-Royce - Can it help?????

Postby vina » 19 Dec 2007 13:02

innovation wrote:Rolls Royce is another party which can be tapped-


Err. Euro(trash)Jet 200 is everyone else (including RR,MTU, Alenia) EXCEPT Snecma.. So when the consortium offers to help, it is actually from all players..

But lets be real.. Much of Eurojet is actuall RR + MTU , the rest of the Euro like Spanish, Italians etc being for the peripherals and accesories.

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Postby JE Menon » 19 Dec 2007 14:39

Innovation - to stay within forum guidelines, I have changed your handle to Sona R

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Postby Katare » 19 Dec 2007 23:38

Rahul,

Sona's point of asking private sector to jump start/finish Kaveri is as stupid as yours of asking "what has private sector done in these fields".

Its too late to bring in an Indian private sector player in the game in fact it'll be counter productive and outright stupid. The time when private sector could have made difference, they were denied licenses or nationalized by socialist govt of that era.

These kind of projects at our stage of national/MIC development and market size can only be done on tax payers money IMO. The question is who is better suited to handle that money/project - a private sector entitiy or a public sector one.

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Postby Rahul M » 24 Dec 2007 22:16

Sona's point of asking private sector to jump start/finish Kaveri is as stupid as yours of asking "what has private sector done in these fields".


Right !

Its too late to bring in an Indian private sector player in the game in fact it'll be counter productive and outright stupid. The time when private sector could have made difference, they were denied licenses or nationalized by socialist govt of that era.

These kind of projects at our stage of national/MIC development and market size can only be done on tax payers money IMO. The question is who is better suited to handle that money/project - a private sector entitiy or a public sector one.


So you repeat precisely what I was saying a couple of posts above in a different construction of words and categorize my comment as "stupid" in the bargain.

GREAT !!

So, tell me,
my comment that now is not the time to replace GTRE with L&T/Kirloskar in the Kaveri project is at the same level of stupidity as saying that 'it' (replacing GTRE with IPI) was a good idea ??
doesn't that strike you as a contradiction of sorts ??

or can't you read and understand at the same time ??

Mind you, I was only saying that NOW was not a good time to give the job of developing the kaveri (I'm not talking about generic engine development in the country) to IPI, after all the time,money & effort that has gone into the kaveri effort @ GTRE. and considering the vast research experience that engine development requires, information that won't come from anywhere whether for love or for money regardless of if the company in question is GE,RR,Salyut or Snecma.

How is Govt policy relevant to the point above and how does it make my point stupid ??

Waiting For Your Reply.

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Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2007 16:25

For decades of observation with Indian designed products,we must accept the fact that when it comes to hardware,we are not in the same league as developed countries.Most of our machinery is not ergonomically designed and aesthetically too fall short.Even the Indica,with Italian design help and Tata Motors' SUVs fall short of the standards of other manufacturers in aestehetics as well as build quality.Take the armed light attack helo mock-up at Aero-India,pics can be found in Vayu,etc.The nose ball sensor is fitted "sitting on a platform with two spindly "arms" on either side like a waiter holding an outstretched tray! Just compare this ugly and I dare say unsatisfactory method with several other attack helos of comparable class of other manufacturers.The neat way in which the sensor is carried either atop the rotors,for better stealthy surveillance while the helo hides behind a ridge,or on top of the cabin,or even when fitted to the nose isdone in a careful aerodynamic manner unlike in our design.

Metallurgy and manufacturing of exotic composite materials and alloys is another field where we have some way to go.There are many countries ahead of us.In aircraft engine design and manufacturing we are decades behind.Weare going to use a Russian engine for the IJT,Why? With so many decades of R&D over the Kaveri,with a lot of money spent,why couldn't we design and build a smaller engine for the IJT at least? Why,as my AM friend says,can't we even after decades of trying to perfect the Kaveri have the engine testbed in India at bangalore where the GTRE is instead of having to send the engine every time to Russia! Surely if we want to design and build a family of aero-engines for future projects,we should have the infrastructure for testing the same on home soil? What about the 5th-gen fighter and the MTA? More Russian engines without a doubt! We cannot allow the LCA project to fail with so much of time and money spent.To avoid the fate of the HF-24 Marut though requires us to by hook or by crook to obtain another engine or modify the Kaveri suitably in the shortest timeframe possible to deliver the required thrust that the LCA's mission parameters require.

We must remember that as far as software is concerned we can deliver,but the same is not the case with hardware.Even in the computer industry,how many chip manufacturing centres do we have?

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Postby Singha » 26 Dec 2007 16:46

Admiral Sir, we need investment. SW is cheap,HW of any form is expensive. Gromov, GE aero engines Lynn and TsAGI type places need decades of sustained high investment to flower into full power. shoestring and "working smart" may help in algorithms or UI but definitely not in physical engineering stuff. our desi auto and machinery industry is only in last 5 yrs reaching some maturity and can help out.

Even today I dont hear of any plan to shake GTRE down to its roots, hike salaries by 1000% and attract the best available local manpower and buy up best eqpt available and have a external agency like IISC run the place as Univ of CA Berkeley runs some federal labs in US.

above all, hire and retain the best people whatever the price. the best
people are 10 times more effective than the average.

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Postby gopal.suri » 26 Dec 2007 16:54

Philip,

While I fully agree with you, IJT would have never progressed waiting for kaveri dervative ie lower ratings. Kaveri is expected to be mounted on PV-1 and flown in 2008. When it succeedes, Indian planes like AJT (if ever) and other derivatives will have the engine. IMO the engines have come at good price.

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Postby Anujan » 27 Dec 2007 06:05

Philip wrote:For decades of observation with Indian designed products,we must accept the fact that when it comes to hardware,we are not in the same league as developed countries.Most of our machinery is not ergonomically designed and aesthetically too fall short.Even the Indica,with Italian design help and Tata Motors' SUVs fall short of the standards of other manufacturers in aestehetics as well as build quality.Take the armed light attack helo mock-up at Aero-India,pics can be found in Vayu,etc.The nose ball sensor is fitted "sitting on a platform with two spindly "arms" on either side like a waiter holding an outstretched tray! Just compare this ugly and I dare say unsatisfactory method with several other attack helos of comparable class of other manufacturers.The neat way in which the sensor is carried either atop the rotors,for better stealthy surveillance while the helo hides behind a ridge,or on top of the cabin,or even when fitted to the nose isdone in a careful aerodynamic manner unlike in our design.

.......

We must remember that as far as software is concerned we can deliver,but the same is not the case with hardware.Even in the computer industry,how many chip manufacturing centres do we have?


Philip-saar,

I would like to respectfully disagree. I think that being second rate in hardware design is the symptom, but not the problem. The basic problem being, there is no free-market economics in hardware design and manufacturing. We wouldn't be this good in making software if private companies like infosys did not start and if they werent desperate to deliver top quality products and services. The very survival of the company depends on it - that makes them efficient and innovative in double quick time.

Let us look at the south koreans for example. Three decades back, they were a huge joke. Look at their tanks and ships today. Hyundai is on its way to becoming a mitsubishi and samsung and LG are giving sony and sharp a run for their money in the consumer electronics arena. Heck, we even imported their trains for the delhi metro.

The problem with India (in the hardware arena) is the lack of capital and lack of competition. Software never had this problem, because it is more human intensive and less capital intensive. Chip manufacturing is not a good example to point of SDRE's deficiencies. Fabs are highly automated, highly capital intensive and depend on cheap power/water/silicon to be effective. So it makes no sense to make a fab in India. On the other hand, Indians form the bulk of chip designers (walk into any intel/amd design lab). If the tatas and kirloskars were to compete for an attack helicopter, we wouldn't see the amateur nonsense that you had pointed out. About the Indica example - automobile majors have been in the game for atleast 4 decades now, but the tatas are catching up. Wait till they finish the acquisition of landrover and jaguar then we will see if Indians can really make cars (I guess the answer would be a yes).

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Postby prashanth » 27 Dec 2007 08:24

Lakshmic, I second your opinion. Well said!

India lags behind in semiconductor fabrication industry only because it is capital intensive. There are simply no investors in this field in our country.
And we cannot expect government to make huge investment in this sector.
Further,aerospace industry requires strong support and technological base in electronics, material science and other such critical fields.One cannot expect the government(especially in India's case) to spend money on R&D in all these areas. In turn, the private sector will not invest on cutting edge R&D for lack of immediate returns.
This situation is however changing now,albeit slowly.

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Postby SaiK » 27 Dec 2007 09:25

I'd say its more of on a mentality.. we now are currently well positioned to invest into hardware quite reasonably well.

furthermore, the need is driven by our capital market, and our desires are onlee slowlee being India centric, made in desi, etc.. is yet to catch up. Forget the high-ends.. even at the lower end, chinese goods just flood, and the door to door sale of the chinese products at 10times lesser cost, and 100 times cheapo materials, are ok for our senses.

look germany policy is more important on the low ends... and our outlook and requirements for the highends are not driven by our needs.. for heaven-sake, onleee juuusht now IAF is thinking of Akash as a serious contender.. and slowly we are getting there.

yes.. we can attribute this slowness to many a aspect, but those are exactly driven by our needs and requirements, which unfortunately is driven by intl politics and clouts.. congrats drdo on many a feat to impress IAF and IA [Akash, Arjun etc..].. more to go, especially the critical tech and superior engineering requirements of Kaveri etc.

capital will flow, if we accept to define our requirements that we will do the Kaveri, whatever it takes.. and this is not the case.. GTRE is an example, with many a such factors that we can attribute for failures., but under the Gun, they too seemed to have done many a good things, but not enough.

What I am saying, we should raise the bar, and re-pledge our intention with our own indigenization efforts.. and don't just consider them as just another product competing with pirangi ones.. this is where, we need to set our requirements such that, we set our standards higher.. make drdo slog, invest more into, drdo should involve more private industries for production setups, and not just rely on public sectors.

a whole list of interconnected things.. but everything under the scope and contract driven by the user, the real stakeholder, who under no circumstance should feel they are put to use inferior or below par products.. its a struggle.

what is happening is great.. but, what is happening on the highend market is not nice as well. I feel, Kaveri, engine for Arjun, and the whole turbine tech must be done without any firangi help.. its okay, we scrap these projects, and restart with a new deadline and scope, baselined from the failed initiatives.

do we have the challenge to put more money and brains into them? yes.. are we willing to manage these high end projects to meet deliverables within time scope, no. we go on a cyclical analysis even for a failures that is not yet seen public or expected to be a failure, since it did not meet deadlines.

drdo labs should start hiring consultants from private industries to speed up things, rather seek imported tech.. just c'ause the stakeholders are questioning the wrongly estimated time schedules.

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Postby abhischekcc » 27 Dec 2007 09:41

Neela wrote:Innovation,

here is a advice/warning....this thread has high tempers and shouldnt be the place for you to start on BRF. I suggest you lurk around for some time, read , know the place before you start posting.

And your handle does not follow forum guidelines.


And which thread is low tempered, pray tell.

The "tackling Islamism" thread or the "psy ops" thread? :P

A hardware thread is as good as any to start with, IMVHO. :)

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Postby Drevin » 09 Jan 2008 12:38

Agree with abhishek. But lurking is also so much fun on BR. Don't have to post, to feel you are part of BR.

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Postby Kakarat » 20 Jan 2008 10:21

Air Force unhappy with TEC’s decision
Ravi Sharma

French firm to co-develop Kaveri engine

Specifications of RFP not entirely met: sources

Engine expected to power light combat aircraft Tejas

BANGALORE: India’s efforts to develop a combat aircraft engine have hit yet another air pocket. Both the Russians and the Indian Air Force are unhappy for different reasons with the Technical Evaluation Committee’s (TEC’s) decision to choose the French engine house Snecma as the Gas Turbine Research Establishment’s (GTRE’s) partner to co-develop the long-delayed Kaveri engine.

The Kaveri is expected to power the indigenously developed light combat aircraft Tejas.

The K.V.L Rao-headed TEC after deliberating over the proposals sent by Snecma and the Russian engine giant NPO Saturn for more than two years, recently declared that Snecma, better met the GTRE’s requirements, thereby eliminating the Russians from the race.

Though the GTRE has sent the TEC’s report to the Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, M. Natarajan, he has reportedly not been able to initiate commercial negotiations with Snecma as the Air Force is unhappy with the engines.
Unsatisfactory

The TEC’s contention in rejecting the Russians is primarily because they are not in a position to comply with the GTRE stipulation — developing the core engine within 48 months.

For the Air Force both the Russian and French offers are unsatisfactory.

According to highly placed sources the French and Russian proposals are “not entirely meeting some of the specifications of the RFP.â€

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Postby bart » 20 Jan 2008 11:14

[quote="Kakarat"]Air Force unhappy with TEC’s decision
Ravi Sharma


“Why should we replace the fully developed and integrated FADEC [Full Authority Digital Engine Control] F404 engine with one that does not have a very much higher thrust rating and is only being offered in a licence production agreement and not being co-developed with GTRE? If we are to look at the licence production route it would be better to go for an engine that has a much higher thrust and growth potential and make the necessary changes on the Tejas’ fuselage,â€

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Postby gopal.suri » 20 Jan 2008 12:00

1) Will there be a redisign of airframe involved? is that why DRDO is not litsening to IAF?
2) Anyother engine means no flat rating
3) If they have to take help, let them go the whole way, why half arsed thing. let them start with the core.

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Postby vina » 20 Jan 2008 12:54

[quote="Kakarat"]“Why should we replace the fully developed and integrated FADEC [Full Authority Digital Engine Control] F404 engine with one that does not have a very much higher thrust rating and is only being offered in a licence production agreement and not being co-developed with GTRE? If we are to look at the licence production route it would be better to go for an engine that has a much higher thrust and growth potential and make the necessary changes on the Tejas’ fuselage,â€

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Postby Sri Harsha » 20 Jan 2008 13:01

Hi All,
Does any one know what happened to Kabini core engine tested in Russia?
Why can’t we re-negotiate with French about the requirements as per the IAF requirements? Is it possible?
Please let me know?

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Postby JCage » 20 Jan 2008 13:12

Its not so simple. If the IAF commits to buying xxx LCA even if it is delayed because of the entire fuselage, inlet redesign on account of a brand new engine, its one thing. But they wont do so, they'll ask for bleeding edge specs, late redesigns and retain the option to call the program names, not order any despite their change induced issues. Cant have them both. Either accept Block1 as is, with Block 2 fancy like the world does. Or commit to Block 2 if it is the new Block 1.

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Kaveri status

Postby kvraghavaiah » 21 Feb 2008 10:57

The K9 engine (kaveri developemental serial 9) is consistently doing well.
The issues with K9 are a bit more weight than the expected, a bit less after burner efficiency than expected. These are minor issues. No other potential issue are there for kaveri.

K-10 is to be developed under foriegn collaboration . K-10 will have above two issues resolved. India can resolve these issues on its own easily. But, in view of the time constraint foreign collaboration is saught.

Kaveri, marine version for powering ships is under developemental trails.It seems it is doing good now.I do not know much about how many years it will take to meet expectations. Heavy vehicle version to power arjun tank is not yet started developement or not yet disclosed.

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Re: Kaveri status

Postby k prasad » 21 Feb 2008 12:11

kvraghavaiah wrote: Heavy vehicle version to power arjun tank is not yet started developement or not yet disclosed.


Any info about this?? Is it even possible to fit the Kaveri. By my understanding, it would be better to put a helo turboshaft engine on the tank.

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Re: Kaveri status

Postby Kartman » 21 Feb 2008 13:47

kvraghavaiah wrote:The K9 engine (kaveri developemental serial 9) is consistently doing well.
The issues with K9 are a bit more weight than the expected, a bit less after burner efficiency than expected. These are minor issues. No other potential issue are there for kaveri.

K-10 is to be developed under foriegn collaboration . K-10 will have above two issues resolved. India can resolve these issues on its own easily. But, in view of the time constraint foreign collaboration is saught.

Kaveri, marine version for powering ships is under developemental trails.It seems it is doing good now.I do not know much about how many years it will take to meet expectations. Heavy vehicle version to power arjun tank is not yet started developement or not yet disclosed.


What is the source of this info ?

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Postby geeth » 21 Feb 2008 14:31

>>>But lets face it. Kaveri is just too late in the day and cant be the LCA powerplant.. Those guys had their chance and the time.. but couldnt do it.
And this babu driven farce of choosing a partner is just ridiculous. Those guys were supposed to do it in 3 months.. okay worst case 6 months to do the deal sheal.. But two yeas of sitting around and filling forms in triplicate and all that chai biskoot is ridiculous. what a wasted 2 years.


You talk as though it is like buying a kilo of jaggery to make pindi payasam...

The decision may have been delayed not due to Babudom alone. Each supplier must be playing hardball to extract maximum juice out of the contract for themselves. Babus also must be doing same in India's favour. Meanwhile (hopefully) scientists are working overtime to fix the issues by hook or crook or hard work to see our own engine in a working state (incremental modifications and performance upgradation can be done later), so that we have better bargaining chips..

Now, don't ask for source.. it is all my speculation and I believe truth is somewhat like that..

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Postby Drevin » 21 Feb 2008 14:33

Here's the link.

http://frontierindia.net/kaveri-engine-gathers-momentum

Should ask the BR gurus to verify if its DDM or not. I am not an aerospace expert.

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Postby vina » 21 Feb 2008 14:56

geeth wrote:You talk as though it is like buying a kilo of jaggery to make pindi payasam..


Actually some things in life are simple as buying a kilo of jaggery. But true to form, Indian Babus, create complexity where none exist, a sort of endless loop to justify their own existence.. Like if problem simple .--> Make it babus ==> More jobs for babus --> Makes problem even more complex == > More babus needed.. It is the same old "solution" .. Can't solve a problem /make a decision ? ..Then expand it or make it more complex.

geeth wrote: The decision may have been delayed not due to Babudom alone. Each supplier must be playing hardball to extract maximum juice out of the contract for themselves. Babus also must be doing same in India's favour. Meanwhile (hopefully) scientists are working overtime to fix the issues by hook or crook or hard work to see our own engine in a working state (incremental modifications and performance upgradation can be done later), so that we have better bargaining chips..

Now, don't ask for source.. it is all my speculation and I believe truth is somewhat like that..


That is the "logical" part in you talking. However "logic" and the Indian babudom are diametrically opposed.. After all, this is the land which came up with pity aphorisms on the lines of "The decision not to make a decision, is itself a decision! :roll: :cry: . ..

Lets see examples of "brilliant" decision making by "committee" of "eminent experts" ..

Decision to buy MLCR for Air India --> 17 years.
Decision to buy AJTs ---> > 23 years ?
Decision to buy MRCA s ---- > > 5 years (already)
Decision to buy 155mm artillery --> more than 7 years

Decision to sign Kaveri partner --> More than 2years already.. Willing to take a bet that it will be greater than 4 years..

Babudom is great for putting their thumbs in their collective asses and talking about airy fairy things over chai biskoot and raising profound "No Objection Certificates ".. The sooner they can get their acts together on managing traffic, getting sewers to work properly, build roads or at bare minimum get simple things like toilets and restrooms at public places to be clean and be usable that would be a start. They can graduate to "bigger" things later.

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Postby Singha » 21 Feb 2008 15:05

thats a complex issue Vina, I propose to appoint a empowered group of
IAS secys and ministers to look into the matter and submit its report to
eGOM who will deliberate and in turn refer to CCS who will finally send the
findings to PMO for action.

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Postby Dilbu » 21 Feb 2008 15:36

Singha wrote:thats a complex issue Vina, I propose to appoint a empowered group of
IAS secys and ministers to look into the matter and submit its report to
eGOM who will deliberate and in turn refer to CCS who will finally send the
findings to PMO for action.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Postby K Mehta » 21 Feb 2008 19:57

then CAG will judge how you should have bought only one samosa and one chai instead of two samosa and chai/coffee during those meetings. Such waste of taxpayer's money.

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Postby venkat_r » 21 Feb 2008 20:34

And will pull up the DRDO for not making the aloo bajji indegenously instead of buying allo samosa from outside. DRDO will say that they did develop a aloo bajji at on tenth the price, but was not acceptable to the babus. Babus complian that DRDO's bajji had less aloo than the samosa that was bought from outside.

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Postby prashanth » 23 Feb 2008 18:08

Even as I type I hear a continuous low pitched roar . I live in K'gala, bangalore. May be kaveri is being evaluated by the Snecma team. JMT
:)

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Postby Ranvijay » 23 Feb 2008 18:21

I doubt you can hear noises at HAL airport at Koramangala. I live there too. Though, I did notice something different today, an IL-76 coming in for landing at HAL at around 6:15. I lived in agra and I can tell the difference b/w a civillian jet and an IL-76.

Maybe they really are doing something.

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Postby prashanth » 23 Feb 2008 18:27

Ranvijay wrote:I doubt you can hear noises at HAL airport at Koramangala. I live there too. Though, I did notice something different today, an IL-76 coming in for landing at HAL at around 6:15. I lived in agra and I can tell the difference b/w a civillian jet and an IL-76.

Maybe they really are doing something.



I mean it was continuous and of more or less constant intensity. It lasted for about 10 minutes. Yup, i too watched the IL-76. It is much more noisier than civilian A/C.

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Postby Singha » 23 Feb 2008 20:25

no its KSAF F-15 landing to help us invade Australia. get real boys!

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Postby SaiK » 23 Mar 2008 03:41

http://mod.nic.in/reports/MOD-English2007.pdf


Kaveri Engine for LCA: The
scope of the project is to
design, develop, test and
type certify the Kaveri engine
to meet the specific needs of
the LCA. Design of the
engine, sub-systems, and
components has been
completed and sixteen Kaveri
engines and equivalent sets have been
fabricated.
Kabini (Kaveri Core Engine) has
also been tested on the high altitude test
bed in Russia where it was established that
the thrust and fuel consumption
performances were close to the design
intent. As on date, a total of about 1500
hours of testing has been carried out on
these prototype engines.

Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) system for starting Kaveri engine has
been indigenously developed by HAL, with
assistance from Gas Turbine Research
Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore and is
being integrated with Kaveri engine at
GTRE, Bangalore.

7.44 Significant achievements MIDHANI

Company has successfully
developed trial heats of Supercast
247A (directionally solidified
Super alloy) required for Kaveri
Aero Engine Blade/ vane
application (characterization in
progress)


Dynamic Seals and Rubber Holders:
Twelve types of dynamic seals have been
developed for Kaveri engine nozzle
hydraulic assembly, which have performed
satisfactorily in rig trials tests for 10,000
cycles.

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Postby vina » 23 Mar 2008 09:09

Today's Bangalore print edition of The Hindu has an article by Ravi Sharma on the Kaveri and LCA . It seems that true to the caricature about the bureaucracy a new "search committee" has been formed with the usual "representatives" from ADA, HAL, IAF , GTRE, DRDO (yawnn..) and other alphabet soup to "search" for a "new" engine for the LCA :lol: :lol: ..

The ADA has been told according to the article that to prepare to install a "new" engine in the fighter and hence second "committee" has been formed.

The article states that the LCA is overweight by ONE TON . I find that impossible to believe. That means that it is overweight by a range of 16 to 25%, based what the initial design weights were. With such a weight shortfall, it means that the basic airframe and hence program is a total failure. The IAF would have pulled the plug on the program away...

Anyways, Ravi Sharma says that the Kaveri wont cut it because since the plane is overweight by one ton, it will be underpowered even if brought to full specs with Snecma or Saturn's help.

Somehow I have a feeling that what Ravi Sharma is talking about is a follow on version of the LCA that has a 1 ton higher MTOW than the current version , something on the lines of the Gripen NG. Nothing else makes sense.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 23 Mar 2008 09:21

Panel to scout for engine for Tejas



Ravi Sharma







BANGALORE: India’s two-decade quest for an engine that will power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has taken another twist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) setting up a committee that will scout worldwide for an engine.

The formation of the committee is also an admittance that the indigenous Kaveri combat aircraft engine, which is under development by the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to be the eventual Tejas’ power plant, will, in its present design configuration, not be able to do so.

Headed by K.V.L. Rao, a former director with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the committee has representatives, including from the Air Force, the ADA and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The ADA, the defence laboratory which is designing the Tejas, has also been told that it might have to accommodate an alternate engine that can provide the Tejas with the required levels of power if it is to match the Air Force’s air staff requirements (ASR).

Air Force order


The Tejas programme, which is still short of its initial operational clearance, has already received an order from the Air Force for 20 aircraft.

The half-a-dozen Tejas aircraft that have been produced and flying as part of the programme are powered by the General Electric manufactured GE F404 engines. But India would like to have its own indigenous combat aircraft engine.

Under development since April 1989 by the GTRE, the Kaveri is meant to be comparable with contemporary combat aircraft engines such as the Eurojet EJ200, Snecma M88, General Electric F414 and Pratt and Whitney F119.

Initially expected to be a 93-month programme, costing Rs. 382 crore, the Kaveri project’s development cost, according to the Cabinet Committee on Security, has been revised to Rs.2,839 crore.

The inability of the GTRE to come up with the Kaveri has now forced the formation of the new committee. But the GTRE’s task has also been complicated by the fact that with the Tejas overweighing by well over a tonne, a Kaveri engine developed as per specifications originally spelt out (when the Tejas was within its design weight) will not be capable of providing a heavier aircraft with the thrust that can satisfy the Air Force’s ASR.

The Air Force had pointed out that neither of the co-development offers of France’s Snecma and Russia’s NPO Saturn was good enough to meet the ASRs.

Hence, the DRDO had to reassess the situation and go ahead with the new committee.

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Postby k prasad » 23 Mar 2008 09:23

vina wrote:The article states that the LCA is overweight by ONE TON . I find that impossible to believe. That means that it is overweight by a range of 16 to 25%, based what the initial design weights were.


Yes, I think that is accurate... the LCA infoboards at the SG Air show all stated that Tejas Empty weight is 6.5 tons,(originally, it was 5.5 ton).

The rep also said the same thing... he didnt answer when asked about the apparent weight increase.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 23 Mar 2008 10:33

I think that France is trying to palm off M88 engine in garb of Kaveri which is being opposed by IAF for being underpowered as also GE 404 IN is already 85kn. So next bet seems like EJ200 which is 90kn and has potential for further growth. After all, we should get some tech for placing further orders for Hogs errr Hawks


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