Indian Military/Defence Exports

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Indian Military/Defence Exports

Postby Sanjay M » 03 Sep 2007 17:24

One of the Tata execs says that India will not become a major military/defence exporter for at least 15-20 years:

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdi/j ... _1_n.shtml

What is the state of Indian military exports? What are the growth prospects?
In which areas are India's prospective market opportunities most promising?

Which countries are our current customers, and which would be the likeliest future customers?

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Postby srai » 04 Sep 2007 05:21

As long as India doesn't have big ticket items for sale, it will never be a major military exporter.

Big ticket items, not existing yet:
(1) Air -> combat, trainer, UAV, and transport aircrafts
(2) Land -> MBT, various ICV (tracked & wheeled), artillery guns
(3) Sea -> submarines and major ships (armed with indigenous systems)
(4) Missiles -> SAM, AAM, ASM, PGM, ATM

Available now:
(1) Air -> ALH
(2) Land -> Mine Protected Vehicles, Pinaka MBRL
(3) Sea -> small surface combatants
(4) Missiles -> Brahmos
(5) Radars -> various


Big ticket items by 2030:
(1) Air -> ALH, LCH, LCA, MCA, IJT, AJT (SLIFT), UAV, MTA, and various subsystems (engines, radars, avionics)
(2) Land -> Arjun MBT, Abhay ICV, Pinaka MBRL, MPV
(3) Sea -> Indigenous SSK and major surface combatants (armed with indigenous systems)
(4) Missiles -> SAM (Akash, Maitri, Barak NG), AAM (Astra), ATM (Nag)
(5) Radars -> various

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 04 Sep 2007 09:42

India problem is that India does not have even small ticket items which Indian neighbouring nations would like to buy from India like:-

Sniper rifle
RPGs
or even modern 9mm carbine, pistol etc

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Postby Philip » 04 Sep 2007 14:15

This is an excellent thread to have! It is also a burning issue, with many who see India as one of the world's biggest defence purchasers,but a midget when it comes to exports.Why so? We have such a large volume and variety of defence items required for the forces,an abundance of PSUs and private sectorpotential players,that when it comes even to pistols,Vietnam turns to Pak! The answer lies in the true state of our defence PSUs,their management and their production capabilities both quality and quantity.There has been intense scrutiny of the DRDO,etc. in recent times.various CAG and Parliamentary committees have vented their spleen at the situation afflicting us.Huge promises of success,but little delivered-that too years,even decades late! This is mainly because of the lack of accountability that exists.Will an Indian PSU undertake an export order inclusive of penalty clauses which we inisist upon with foreign suppliers? Who will be held responsible for any contractual failure in terms of quality/performance and timely delivery?

Right from aircraft,helos and tanks, to warships and subs,India has the potential to produce almost anything in modern weaponry and allied systems.The potential has rarely been exploited,fundamentally because there is a lack of accountability-unlike in the public sector.The reasons for this have been debated at length on BR,so I won't go into details,except to say that the best success that we have had is with our civilian space programme and the launching and planned launch of foreign sats,using our PSLV and GSLV launchers,This is a fantastic achievement,because it is success at the highest level of space launcher technology.

We can start with making a list of products from small arms to larger weapon systems and make a simple comparison with other manufacturers worldwide.For example,M&M is developing an all-terrain vehicle,the AXE,a desi Humvee for our requirements which can also be exported to many countries who do not want the most expensive of products,but those affordable and capable.This will then give us a comparitive analysis of how our products fare with the competition and what weaponry we shouldconcentrate upon developing ourselves,whcih is within our capabilities.

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Postby jmaxwell » 04 Sep 2007 19:47

Raj Malhotra wrote:India problem is that India does not have even small ticket items which Indian neighbouring nations would like to buy from India like:-

Sniper rifle
RPGs
or even modern 9mm carbine, pistol etc

Don't fault all of India because of the useless OFB

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Postby JCage » 04 Sep 2007 20:08

Philip wrote:This is an excellent thread to have!There has been intense scrutiny of the DRDO,etc. in recent times.


DRDO developed items are amongst the few that are exported.

various CAG and Parliamentary committees have vented their spleen at the situation afflicting us.


Thats all they are good for.

Huge promises of success,but little delivered-that too years,even decades late! This is mainly because of the lack of accountability that exists.


The "a" word does not automatically grant decades of experience, technology, and uninterrupted funding.
And as mentioned before, you appear to singularly lack focus about what has been achieved. I daresay if I ask you half a dozen program names of recent vintage alone, you will be unaware about each of them, since they are neither published in AWST or Janes, or for that matter tomtommed in Parliamentary reports.

Will an Indian PSU undertake an export order inclusive of penalty clauses which we inisist upon with foreign suppliers? Who will be held responsible for any contractual failure in terms of quality/performance and timely delivery?


Indian PSUs such as BEL already export many items with stringent clauses.


Right from aircraft,helos and tanks, to warships and subs,India has the potential to produce almost anything in modern weaponry and allied systems.The potential has rarely been exploited,fundamentally because there is a lack of accountability-unlike in the public sector.The reasons for this have been debated at length on BR,so I won't go into details,except to say that the best success that we have had is with our civilian space programme and the launching and planned launch of foreign sats,using our PSLV and GSLV launchers,This is a fantastic achievement,because it is success at the highest level of space launcher technology.


India cannot export its range of items at present, because of a simple fact- the services wont like it. This extends for items such as the HUMSA sonar, to the CARadar or BLR or Samyukta EW system.
The PRC has a simple solution- it exports GradeB and Grade A, whilst keeping a subset of Grade A for itself and importing Russian for the rest.
We dont have a massive overweight arms industry which makes dozens of replicas of each weapons system and which can be exported without a single care about giving away crucial tech.

We can start with making a list of products from small arms to larger weapon systems and make a simple comparison with other manufacturers worldwide.


Already done.


For example,M&M is developing an all-terrain vehicle,the AXE,a desi Humvee for our requirements which can also be exported to many countries who do not want the most expensive of products,but those affordable and capable.This will then give us a comparitive analysis of how our products fare with the competition and what weaponry we shouldconcentrate upon developing ourselves,whcih is within our capabilities.


Its not a question of "what to make"- but "what to export".

As I stated previously- vehicles are one thing, no big secret there. But the areas where we do have competence, the services will be aghast at attempts to export what has been- all these years- unique to India.

Nobody knows what the Rajendras strengths and weaknesses are, apart from "released specs". But they will have a much better idea of its ability, if we were to export it.

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Postby Vivek K » 04 Sep 2007 20:48

Phillip, Can you please use bullets instead of such long paragraphs? Thanks.

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Postby jmaxwell » 05 Sep 2007 11:10

Vivek K wrote:Phillip, Can you please use bullets instead of such long paragraphs? Thanks.

On the other hand, I am really impressed by the length of his posts. He takes the time out to post detailed replies in almost every post (whether or not you agree with them). I think that says something. To be fair, we should multiply his post count by at least 10 to account for the one liners that most of the rest of us post.

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Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2007 11:25

JC.Kindly list out for us less informed what India is exporting (major items,likeaircraft,helos, tanks,missiles,avionics,whatever,etc.) to whom and in what quantity.As you say,I am ignorant of our great defence export industry,despite attending annual defence expos,where one sees a lot of military ware on display,much used by our armed forces,but little fanfare about our exports of the same.Since you claim to be knowledgable on Indian defence exports,can you also give us a figure,approx.will do,of the value of our imports in relation to our exports.Tx.

PS.Defence eqpt.developed and used in weapon systems for our forces can't qualify as these,though very important, are really "import substitution" items.

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Postby Drevin » 05 Sep 2007 12:42

The biggest roadblock to export the M&M-Indian Army vehicle is from the japanese competition mainly toyota and nissan. Even the US Army asked toyota to build its light troop transport post world war II in the 1950s. The toyota land cruiser series and Nissans lineage of building great 4X4's is something Mahindra has to keep track of when they start marketing their 4X4's in the US/Europe. You could get a Toyota FJ for $22.5-24k now. Now thats real hard to beat. 5-speed automatic with 4WD at that price and for such a fabulous brand.

What hasn't been mentioned is that toyota also has a hybrid 4X4 called highlander. M&M hasn't got any hybrid system yet. So M&M has a huge way to go. Not only in terms of marketing but also in terms of engineering and technology.

To be a bit positive, if Mahindra can learn how Honda managed to get the CRV to succeed inspite of toyota and nissan, then they may succeed eventually.

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Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2007 15:22

If I can make a positive start,if only to convince sceptics that I want a full and free look at our prospects,the first major success must be the ...

1.ALH-Dhruv.The helo is on the brink of being exported to not just our usual poorer relatives of the turd world,like Nepal,etc.,but across the waters to perhaps Chile.The helo has been shown at numerous aviation shows,won fulsome praise from the international media and is supposed to be attractive in pricing.The drawback that we have in general when compared with established defence giants,is that they have very flexible sales and marketing methods.That's why we have supposedly enlisted the Israelis for key avionics eqpt. and their specialised marketing skills.The helo is an excellent example of the collaborative effort.MBB of Germ,any were the initial consultants,we now have thanks to US sanctions French engines for the same.Weaponry will come from several sources,depending upon the users preference.Competing with the likes of Westland,Eurocopter and Bell is going to be a tough task though despite the products many virtues,but if w can accelerate the naval variant and the light armed version too,the market could widen a lot.

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Postby JCage » 05 Sep 2007 16:27

You missed the point again. The point was that the items that we have that are the most exportable- will not be cleared for export. Never mind..

Philip wrote:JC.Kindly list out for us less informed what India is exporting (major items,likeaircraft,helos, tanks,missiles,avionics,whatever,etc.) to whom and in what quantity.


We currently export spares for most of our license produced radars, we have exported a few radars- Flycatcher iirc for a Skyshield system. Plus the DRDO developed BFSR-SR, then there are the DRDO developed radar computers for the MKI, some 10% of the MKM structure is via HAL, slotted array antennas (tech developed via the LCA MMR), to Poland for their naval surveillance radar etc. Many electronics doodads here and there and subcomponents and ancillaries. India got an expression of interest from Iran for many locally upgraded Flycatchers which we didnt follow through on thanks to obvious reasons. Apart from this, we export the usual ammo, and other jazz from the rather lackadaisical OFB.


As you say,I am ignorant of our great defence export industry,despite attending annual defence expos,where one sees a lot of military ware on display,much used by our armed forces,but little fanfare about our exports of the same.Since you claim to be knowledgable on Indian defence exports,can you also give us a figure,approx.will do,of the value of our imports in relation to our exports.Tx.


Tilt at a windmill Philip, and rather disingenuous. I made the basic point that you are ignorant as regards our defence industry, not defence export industry. Trying to put words in my mouth wont do.

As regards the above- please do tell me what is Project Sangraha, and what does it comprise of? How many different kinds of sonars does India make? What are the different armour packages in Indian capability today. Also, since we have gone down this path- kindly list for me each & every radar system that India has made and what their value is.

Should be easy right?

As I said- you were quick to state that India doesnt make anything of much worth, and hence we didnt have many exports to our name. You never considered the possibility, that what we do make is stuff that is critical to the services and that they wouldnt look kindly upon it being marketed to anyone with the cash.


PS.Defence eqpt.developed and used in weapon systems for our forces can't qualify as these,though very important, are really "import substitution" items.


Nice escape clause, what!

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Postby C Panda » 05 Sep 2007 18:35

I see JCage is trying to salvage what he can of his national izzat as usual while dodging the issues.

India is in reality a piddling player in the global arms trade though it's sales have increased dramatically in the past few years and have plateued to a significantly higher amount. In 2002, India's arms exports was a puny 20 million USD but in 2005 it was over 130 million. Though keep in mind that defense exports are subject to substantial annual fluctuation in light of single purchase large deals that throw off an individual year.

The primary factor for this is simply because India is mostly uncompetetive in the high, medium, and low tech segments of the defense industry excepting a few certain core competancies where India has tie-ins with foreign arms manufacturers. This is compounded by lack of R&D funding, (it's only about 4-5% of the entire defense budget).

Even the Tata executive is being wildly optimistic. In 20 years time, India will likely still remain a marginal player.

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Postby vinayak_d » 05 Sep 2007 18:40

I see C Panda is trying desperately to salvage some chinki pride thats taken a bashing from the quality control is european and American markets. Even the pathetic military goods that are bought by poor third world african nations with no choice don't seem to be helping chinks sell much. Its really pathetic that despite producing such arms in bulk countries like Zimbabwe find chinese goods to be of very low quality and stay away from it. Really china needs to educate its people more about quality control and after sales service. Take a leaf from the koreans or better still the japs.

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Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2007 19:17

JC,this thread is about Indian defence exports,NOT about what progress India has made with defence weapon systems and technology.So stick to the topic if you can.If our wares are so fantastic-and I have never denigrated our successes,of which we have many which if you have carefully read my posts over the years are easy to find.What major or even minor items of worth have we actually exported? Why have we not succeeded ?Is it because of them being below international standard (quality,delivery,after sales support,etc.),or is it or our lack of marketing skills and support from the GOI,unhealthy competitive methods by international majors,diplomatic pressures,etc. These are the issues that are worth debating and discussing and how we can overcome any obstacles and give a thrust to our defence export potential.Instead your puerile,juvenile,rantings are pathetic.Please grow up and rspond in a mature manner,not in the antagonistic way in which you repeatedly try and attack me personally and sickeningly bore the forum. I do not have to prove anything to you,those who know me know of me.I will however answer your worthwhile queries,if you will list out what worthwhile defence hardware and software we have exported so far.Once again,this thread is about Indian defence exports,not the DRDO/PSU's many achievements which we can all heartily celebrate in another thread..

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Postby Kunal » 05 Sep 2007 22:41

C Panda is a typical PRC trained propaganda bot. There is no way to educate or debate with bots like him. They are perfectly trained to spout exactly as instructed by party high-command. Ignore and please continue the otherwise fine debate.

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Postby JCage » 06 Sep 2007 00:28

Philip wrote:JC,this thread is about Indian defence exports,NOT about what progress India has made with defence weapon systems and technology.So stick to the topic if you can.


Kindly look towards the last para, where I address this rather remarkable claim of yours.


If our wares are so fantastic-and I have never denigrated our successes,of which we have many which if you have carefully read my posts over the years are easy to find.What major or even minor items of worth have we actually exported? Why have we not succeeded ?Is it because of them being below international standard (quality,delivery,after sales support,etc.),or is it or our lack of marketing skills and support from the GOI,unhealthy competitive methods by international majors,diplomatic pressures,etc. These are the issues that are worth debating and discussing and how we can overcome any obstacles and give a thrust to our defence export potential.Instead your puerile,juvenile,rantings are pathetic.Please grow up and rspond in a mature manner,not in the antagonistic way in which you repeatedly try and attack me personally and sickeningly bore the forum.


Your personal attacks prove the point that you dont have a leg to stand on Philip, and are as is usual, driving another thread into the gutter with your bellicose rants- high on bombast and short on facts.

I dont have all day to sit and wade through your tiresome rants in thread after thread, which dont even have an iota of useful information and merely lead to verbal slugfests which you revel in and for the sake of which you make outrageous comments. Nor do you have the basic courtesy of even undertaking basic research of the sort, every other poster here does & you respond with personal attacks when someone points out how incorrect your statements are.

Despite your tiresome habits of ignoring what every poster tells you, and repeating the same lines over & again, I have endeavoured to provide you as much information as i can- even including the last post. I dont have to- I dont get paid for this (none of us do) & I dont see why I have to sit and see you wreck yet another thread on account of your ranting.

I have already stated as to WHY India cannot export items that are of high value and would be desirable by other nations on account of cost effectiveness/ bang for buck etc. India need not make earth shattering items- many customers will purchase them if they are cost effective and functional. If you would look up the prices of electronics defense materiel you would note how expensive even the most basic items are, as available from western countries.

In the same vein, I asked you whether you knew of any of these products- you clearly dont, hence your bile and venom above and attempt to drag an otherwise sane discussion to the same level which you have dragged the LCA thread into. I merely asked you the project names, but I should have foreseen your vituperative reaction on account of having been challenged or whatever.

This is what you stated as to why India does not "export":

"The answer lies in the true state of our defence PSUs,their management and their production capabilities both quality and quantity."

Which is incorrect.

Whereas BEL makes a range of items that are quite competitive, so does ECIL. BDLs missiles also have a large potential market, but for the fact that its hobbled by its license production agreement with Euromissile and others (it cannot export other items on account of MTCR).

India makes a range of items which are A) Either hampered by license production agreements (Milan, Konkurs, MiG spares etc), radars which are license produced etc b) Constrained by services (Radars, EW, Sonars) which dont want critical IP which they have funded/inducted to be widely disseminated C) Are not in synch with market demand (OFBs India specific armaments line is a prime example)

If India were to adopt Chinas example, it would merely copy and produce and wouldnt care a fig. That would also lock us out of future license production.

If India floods the market with Milan ripoffs, then there will be no Milan-ER in Indian service, not to mention a court case directed against the GOI. These are strategic decisions to take.

I do not have to prove anything to you,those who know me know of me.I will however answer your worthwhile queries,if you will list out what worthwhile defence hardware and software we have exported so far.Once again,this thread is about Indian defence exports,not the DRDO/PSU's many achievements which we can all heartily celebrate in another thread..


If during the course of your statements you make the claim that India makes nothing worth exporting etc as you have done so in the past, then it is equally worth remarking that a) you are incorrect and b) India cannot export certain items unless it receives political clearance from the services and devotes considerable resources to making variants of its existing items that will NOT compromise its own services warfighting capability.

I find it hilarious that you insist that a discussion on what India can export is not tied to Indias defence industry. In fact both are tied at the hip. India can often truly export ONLY what it has designed and made itself or retains basic ownership of the design over.

And if it wishes to do so, it will have to develop export variants and dedicate considerable resources towards the same.

A radar which is to be exported will have to have an export specific signal processor (say), different TWT and differences in several parameters so as to not give out critical performance information.

One of the USPs of local production is that these items are not compromised. Exports will affect that.

Case in point: The JSF is stated to have a huge fund earmarked towards IP protection & non tamper proof items. India has not done this for many of its items.

In that vein, this thread needs to ponder over what India wishes to export and what it will have to lose (no free lunch) in order to get what it wants.

Now do you see? Merely bemoaning defence exports or lack of is of no use. India can & is in recent years, signing license production deals with export clauses written into it. FWIW, these are what pakistan "exported" to Vietnam- German submachine guns manufactured/assembled in Pak!

So India can export small scale items- small arms, munitions of varying calibers. It can export other items such as the Dhruv whose broad performance parameters are not classified. But if it truly wishes to break into the market such as the US, Russia and Europe (And even Israel) have done- it will have to give serious thought into funding export driven items and making export specific variants of its high end systems.

Otherwise, Indias most "export worthy" systems will justifiably remain under lock and key, within the country.
Last edited by JCage on 06 Sep 2007 01:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby JCage » 06 Sep 2007 00:31

C Panda wrote:I see JCage is trying to salvage what he can of his national izzat as usual while dodging the issues.

India is in reality a piddling player in the global arms trade though it's sales have increased dramatically in the past few years and have plateued to a significantly higher amount. In 2002, India's arms exports was a puny 20 million USD but in 2005 it was over 130 million. Though keep in mind that defense exports are subject to substantial annual fluctuation in light of single purchase large deals that throw off an individual year.

The primary factor for this is simply because India is mostly uncompetetive in the high, medium, and low tech segments of the defense industry excepting a few certain core competancies where India has tie-ins with foreign arms manufacturers. This is compounded by lack of R&D funding, (it's only about 4-5% of the entire defense budget).

Even the Tata executive is being wildly optimistic. In 20 years time, India will likely still remain a marginal player.


Dear C Panda,

National izzat is not defined by retarded claims on the net- the likes of which you indulge in. Its defined by the quality of behaviour of a nations leaders and how its populace react. The PRC is a nation where pregnant women get their foetus yanked out because an apparatchik wasnt bribed, and the husband gets brutalized.

With such a country and with people like you sucking upto their "leaders" you are welcome to your izzat and make believe pride. Cant get worse than that.

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Postby srai » 06 Sep 2007 04:30

Guys ... please stop these arrogant personal attacks ... let's stay focused on the topics. There is very little value being added to the discussions with these lengthy provocative tit-for-tats.

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Postby JCage » 06 Sep 2007 04:33

One wouldnt have to respond to personal attacks if one wasnt subjected to them in the first place. Secondly, if you find the above lengthy posts to be not to your taste etc- please ignore them. You are under no obligation to read them.

Now I await the presence of the usual trolls -etc. to stir the pot. and take sides.

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Postby Lkawamoto » 06 Sep 2007 05:03

seems indian defense exports are like this forum - without a clear mission.

- indian defense products are developed by government run sweat shops
- they do not have any incentive whatsoever to earn export dollars
- they are not known for world-class products
- in fact they (DRDO etc) have been critisized for delays, bad quality, and bad design

no one (except JC) would come to their defense. this forum should be shoved to the trash can archive

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Postby Vick » 06 Sep 2007 06:33

This thread, just like Indian defense exports, is more talk than actual substance :P

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Postby Rudranath » 06 Sep 2007 14:25

Check this Indian Defence Manufacturer's site

MKU began its export operations in 2003 after attaining a stronghold in India. 2 years hence, it has acquired market shares in over 30 countries:

EUROPE
Spain, Belgium, France, Greece, Portugal, Germany, Austria, Czech
Republic & UK

MIDDLE EAST
Cyprus, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Turkey & Iraq

NORTH & SOUTH AMERICA
USA, Canada, Bolivia, Columbia, Venezuela

ASIA
Korea, Singapore, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Australia

AFRICA
Libya , Ghana , Nigeria, Egypt.



and this is the Product List


MKU :: Bomb blankets with safety rings
Description
*MKU’s unique Bomb Suppression Blankets provide emergency protection against blasts and fragments in the event of explosives detonating before they can be neutralized.

*They are effective against most pipe bombs, hand grenades and fragments caused by pressure or electrical explosions.

*The combination of a Bomb Blanket and their Safety Ring can also be used as a temporary portable barrier for VIP protection. These can be attached to windows in place of innumerable shields in order to protect police/VIPs during anxious situations.

*Other uses of Bomb Blankets include: protection of petrol explosives or grenades stored near areas where explosions are probable.

*Made from a combination of anti-ballistic materials and encased in a water repellent black polyamide cover, these Blankets are light enough to be carried by one person.


MKU’s De-Mining Suits
Description
*Specially designed for personnel who search and diffuse bombs and mines, MKU’s De-Mining Suits not only protect against projectiles and high velocity fragments, but also against overt pressures and intense heat that arises in close proximity to explosives.

*MKU employs only the best materials, i.e., non-woven fragmentation materials, to manufacture these Suits. Their manufacturing process and ingredients used adorn these Suits with an ultra-light weight and exceptionally flexibility.


Helmets
MKU :: Helmets - PASGT
MKU :: Helmets - Advanced Combat
MKU :: Helmets - Mine Clearence
MKU :: Helmets - M-1
MKU :: Helmets - Protector
MKU :: Helmets - Anti-riot


Ballistic Jackets and Vests

Armour Plates


Composite Ballistic Panels

De-mining-suit

Canvas Rubber Footwear

Camouflage Nets

Camouflage Nets
Today's combat zone is packed with the most advanced warfare technology. To remain undetected is the first and most crucial objective for successful field operations. The multi Spectral Camouflage Nets from MKU maximise troop survival and attack capabilities by providing increased protection against all types of visual, infrared and radar image detection.

Tents

In a short span of just 20 years, MKU has taken the mantle of being the leading manufacturer and defence contractor for the Indian Army, Police and other Special Forces. That too, in all product categories in which it has a presence. Some other organizations that depend on MKU for their ballistic needs are:
* Indian Paramilitary Forces
* Indian Air Force
* Indian Navy
* National Cadet Corps
* Border Roads
* Indian State Police Forces
* Indian Ministry of Coal & Mines
* Indian Ministry of Railways

MKU has four state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities in Kanpur, India, which together cover an area of over 150,000 sq. ft. All four have been certified as conforming to ISO 9001 standards.

MKU's four plants are capable of coping with catering to bulk orders. Every year MKU can produce upto:
*Body Armour 200,000 Nos.
*Up-Armour Inserts 300,000 Nos.
*Helmets 120,000 Nos.
*Vehicle Armor Kits 2,000 Nos.
*Canvas & Rubber Footwear 800,000 Nos.
*Snow Boots 150,000 Nos.
*Snow Shelters 10,000 Nos.
*Tents 40,000 Nos.


Note: Right Now short of time so cant fully list the products from MKU.

When i will be free will edit and update this post.

Note to admin: A puki bakra on this thread seems to have enjoyed his stay on this site and is ready to be halaled.
Last edited by Rudranath on 06 Sep 2007 15:24, edited 2 times in total.

Sanku
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Postby Sanku » 06 Sep 2007 14:32

Lkawamoto wrote:no one (except JC) would come to their defense. this forum should be shoved to the trash can archive


The board lets JC do the job because he is 1000000000x smarter than the rest and better informed. His posts are always knowledgable and articulate; where as trolls appear make disjointed allegations and disappear. Like you have and will.

Cheers...

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Postby Drevin » 06 Sep 2007 15:31

Positive signs for the army truck built by M&M and the Indian Army. They are putting in $6-8 million. I think this is cool. M&M are making the right moves.

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Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2007 19:47

Will ignore flak and stay on course of the thread.First,we have to identify our target countries for exports.Obviously,friendly small neighbours,like Lanka,Maldives,Mauritius,Nepal,etc. are obvious markets.New markets areemerging in ASEAN,African and S.American nations.This requires more detailed discussion later on.For the moment,here is a fairly recent report that DRDO's official exports in 2006 were 27.95 crores and of this 21.15 (75%) was for a "radar computer" (from DARE) order for the RMAF (Malaysia).Two Indian radars were gifted to Colombo,switched off when the LTTE attacked Katunayake airport! More being sent ?

JC has brought up a valid point about the inability to export many items produced by the defence PSUs,because they are items built/developed under licence from various suppliers and those earlier agreements may have clauses preventing us from exporting these items without OE manufacturers permission.With this handicap,exports of many items in demand were iimpossible.Some years ago after the collapse of the Soviet Union,Indonesia bought a large amount of naval craft (39 ships from the GDR).They wanted India to enter into repair and maintenance contracts,but we refused for reasons unknown.

Now,the mass of items being produced by the PSUs are in this fashion,some critics say that this hampers indigenous effort since the order books are kept full this way ,keeping everyone happy (labour and management) without too much effort being made for R&D ourselves.Even if true,this is one major reason why,why the new offest policy for imported eqpt.of value above 300 crores has been brought into force.

The government announced the new policy for capital acquisitions in which the minimum requirement is of 30 percent offsets in all acquisitions where the purchase cost exceeds Rs.3 billion. Nearly 80 percent of all offsets are in the area of aerospace...Pointing out that it will be as much as 40 percent cheaper to manufacture in India under offsets. A quote,'We would like to pursue offsets that will be beneficial to both Indian industry and foreign collaborators.'

Direct purchase of defence products, components manufactured by Indian defence industries.
Provision of “Servicesâ€
Last edited by Philip on 06 Sep 2007 19:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JCage » 06 Sep 2007 19:57

JCage wrote:Now I await the presence of the usual trolls -etc. to stir the pot. and take sides.


Lkawamoto wrote:no one (except JC) would come to their defense. this forum should be shoved to the trash can archive


Thanks for proving the point.

I had actually included your name when I first posted the statement, because I knew you wouldnt pass up the chance to trash talk. Then I thought- "wait, lets give the chap the benefit of the doubt".

Hoo boy. Talk about misplaced optimism. A leopard cant change its spots, and forum trolls will remain forum trolls.
Last edited by JCage on 06 Sep 2007 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JCage » 06 Sep 2007 20:06

Philip wrote:Will ignore flak and stay on course of the thread.


Thank you & kudos.


First,we have to identify our target countries for exports.Obviously,friendly small neighbours,like Lanka,Maldives,Mauritius,Nepal,etc. are obvious markets.New markets areemerging in ASEAN,African and S.American nations.This requires more detailed discussion later on.For the moment,here is a fairly recent report that DRDO's official exports in 2006 were 27.95 crores and of this 21.15 (75%) was for a "radar computer" (from DARE) order for the RMAF (Malaysia).Two Indian radars were gifted to Colombo,switched off when the LTTE attacked Katunayake airport! More being sent ?


The DRDOs products are actually manufactured by BEL, ECIL, Keltron and other PSUs, so its hard to trace the revenue path. For instance, the figures above refer to the Radar computers manufactured by HAL, but by DARE. BEL also exported the DRDO BFSR-SR to Malaysia, iirc and several of DRDOs other technology transfers are used by its private and public partners.

The Brahmos, if exported- will have orders for the DRDO/BEL/ECIL/Pvt industry (including L&T) developed Fire control posts, Mission control centers, as well as communications links.

The radars exported, rather donated to Sri Lanka are DRDOs Indra-2 PC (Pulse Compression) radars, which are the de facto IAF Low Level radars. They are 2D units with good resolution and directed against low fliers.

The Army also uses Indras, along with Dutch Super Fledermaus, Flycatcher and Reporter radars.

Currently, DRDO is developing two more radars which could be of immense use against low fliers- both 2D and 3D Light weight variants. It also aims to develop a complete range of 3D radars (Medium and High power) for the AF.

These could be exported, provided- the AF gives its consent and we manage to make export specific derivatives.

Bar LSP for Army (eg AERV etc), DRDO mostly transfers its products for production at other firms since it, is at the end of the day, a R&D unit.

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Postby Kartman » 07 Sep 2007 00:59

Lkawamoto wrote:seems indian defense exports are like this forum - without a clear mission.
:roll:

- indian defense products are developed by government run sweat shops
:roll: :roll:

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Postby Kartman » 07 Sep 2007 01:32

Talking of "big ticket" products... add to the points raised above, the issues of
- lack of scale
- service & support infra, (ability to provide)
- political weight
- relevance to "available" markets

* Let's say we get a huuuuge order (by our stds, that is) of ~30 ALH-Dhruvs, from, say Israel or Chile or Singapore. Given that even the envisaged peak production would just equal this number, how long will the customer be willing to wait ? Esp. given the backlog of 150+ units for our forces. This would potentially place a cap on how much we can market our "big ticket" items. Our needs are huge, and our forces would come first (subject, of course, to funds being available!)

* Given this constraint (of small numbers), how viable would it be to designate/maintain support personnel for such small customers, say a Chile that buys 4 or so Dhruvs ?

* Next, let's say we do have the infrastructure to deliver on time and support a large order, say from Singapore. Would, say, Unkil "allow" it, given that Bell & Sikorsky have similar products ?

* So, lastly, willy-nilly the only countries that would be interested in, and "allowed" to, buy from us would the Chiles, Sri Lankas and Vietnams of the world. The only problem is... are our products relevant to them ? Contrary to what the Aroors and Shuklas may peddle, many of our products are world-class (or nearly so), and might be a tad expensive (and maintenance intensive) for many such potential customers... a victim of our own success ? :cry:

Given these constraints, the only playing space we might have might be in
- services, ala overhaul of Vietnamese or RMAF MiGs/Su-s
- small volume, niche products... radars, EW, avionics, etc. subject to forces' approval, and the order being small enough for the biggies to not bother about it.
- components, e.g. wave-guides to Poland... where we might be able to compete with good tech at a lower cost.

The market for low-tech, high-volume stuff like small arms ammo, clothing, body armour, etc. is highly commoditized and saturated... but who knows, many of our bania firms have done well in similar civvie markets :)

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Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2007 12:12

We must examine how China built up its defence export industry despite for many decades being unable to obtain either from the west or east blocs.Before the Soviet/Sino realtionship turned sour,China was able to get the best that Russia had to offer.After relations soured,theVietnam war was in full swing and Russia,in supporting Vietnam,had to send much of its military hardware by land through China and by sea from Vladivostok.The land route was easier with the availability of railway systems to tranship goods.China took advantage of this and secretly purloined/examined a lot of key military eqpt. that they used in their indigenous industry.Though their hardware was by western standards basic and unsophisticated,their prolific production enabled them to gift or sell at "friendship" prices a lot of eqpt. to client states and frienda around the world.Pak was the major beneficiary,Yugoslavia,Sri Lanka,African states,etc.Chinese exports were Soviet origin MIG-19s,trainers,T-59s,patrol craft,missile boats,guns,small arms,etc.

Contrast this with India,at the same period,who despite having access to most Soviet weaponry and some western systems and technology too,seemed to have totally ignored defence exports,perhaps from a false "Gandhian" outlook,that selling weapons was not "pukka".We were producing hundreds of MIG-21s,with Indian improvements,an aircraft used all over the world,particularly by the Non-Aligned bloc.Apart from Soviet items being built under licence,we were also producing our own HF-24,Gnat/Ajeets,Jaguars,Alouettes,Vijayanta (Vickers light tank),artillery,Leander class frigates and smaller naval craft,etc. I remember a glowing tribute to the Gnat/Ajeet aircraft and its philosophy in Flight Intl. decades ago commending India on upgrading it.It shot down even a paki Mirage-3!Those days,if I remember correctly,the cost of a Gnat/Ajeet was 20 lakhs!

China later on,during Deng's regime and his "four modernisations",a massive impetus was given to modernising the military.A number of western nations started selling China items.Israel sold them the Lavi design and gradually even Russia started selling China their top products like the SU-27,being built in the hundreds under licence.While many sensitive items are off the export list (we are protesting about Russian RD-33 engines for the Sino-Pak bird),China is exporting new versions of the Jiangwei class frigate ,missile craft,JV and Chinese strike aircraft toPak,as well as tanks,missiles,etc.Pak in turn is trying to re-export some of these items developed and improved by them.

The disadvantage that we have with exports is despite our many indigenous products in competing is that we have few fully developed weapon systems to offer.We have also not perfected a single central export "house" like theRussians or Europeans,whose defence conglomerates produce almost any item for all three services.We can export components like software,avionics and air-defence radars,but cannot sell a missile system along with it,because our own systems are "maturing".Our Khukri class corvettes were very shoddily built,build quality remakred about when on foreign visits, and we lost out on several ASEAN corvette orders to European yards.Thanks to the multi-nation European programmes,a western yard can offer a warship with several weaponry options,sourced from different countries,a total solution.The small arms market is huge,but here,we are still importing AK-47s and Tavors and have made no dent at all in this lucrative market.I don't know what the foreign feedback has been about INSAS.JC has written about difficulties exporting anti-tank missiles being made under licence.Nag according to earlier plans,was supposed to be in service by this time.Furthermore,unless there are substantial orders for our own forces,who will buy a product which is scarcely used by one user? Take the Arjun as an example.We have ordered only 124,but our defence minister is going to Russia shortly to order another 380 T-90s in addition to the 310 already acquired! T-72s are in service worldwide,upgrades to them is another possibility,tank-Ex is somewhere around as a possibility,but our production capacity has to be drastically inproved.Armoured vehicles and ATVs can be pushed,Mahindra's new AXE has good possibilities too.

Currently,our best products which have good export possibilities are the ALH Dhruv and Brahmos missiles,the latter however depends upon a Russian nod too.If the missile is only acquired by the Russian defence forces ,it will still be a major achievement.Knowing the Byzantine style of the arms trade,we know how to take better than we know how to give! Perhaps that's why the Israelis are being brought in to help sell the Dhruv apart from their avionics aand weaponry package to sweeten the deal.Whether we wish to sell sensitive avionics being used by our Sukhois,Bisons,etc. lightweight torpedoes and sonars is another matter.Prithvi missiles is another good possibility.If we find that Russia objects to selling Brahmos to some countries,we could offer them 300 km Prithvis instead.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Sep 2007 12:28

Philip; the earlier discussion referred to how China is some what of a pariah in the world arms market as a client; co producer and partner(except for desperate sorts like current Ru Fed). Even then its export success has been to Zimbabwe like countires even who are not quite enthused by the wares they get.

Your last post does not seem to have factored in this input while using China as a potential learning model. Your argument would have greater thursts if you were to include the prior critical inputs and also mention how in the picture you paint you would avoid the same.

We will otherwise get into the same loop of thrashing the same issues we have on nuclear thread; where the YBs are peddling the same point while neatly ignoring the arguments to the contary.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Sep 2007 12:38

Kartman wrote:Talking of "big ticket" products... add to the points raised above, the issues of
- lack of scale


In another era; on another thread a very similar discussion was on in a different context and Shiv (IIRC) mentioned how the western countries could afford to add large numbers of systems to their armies quickly since they could use extra lines of export when not needed domestically.

If to the above your inputs in the post of lack of scale hampering exports is factored; the lack of scale is clearly a chicken and egg situation; hence the vicious cycle must be broken somewhere. Without needing a WWIII to get into extra capacity mode to begin with.

I submit that the first step must be a rapid growth of the Mil-Ind complex Using the private partners and the offset clauses seem to be a great way to get there. However more steps are needed and it would be a good idea if folks can bounce idea on how to achieve the same.

Other ideas are::
Reform of OFBs.
Allowing external vendors to set us shop in India to manufacture stuff. Isarael may especially be interested in this since owing to their size; they may be willing to base their factories in India and source stuff from India if GoI lets them do it at cost price.
???

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Postby Kartman » 07 Sep 2007 14:15

Umm, stupid question... but why does India want to export ?

* financial benefits (no-brainer)
* political leverage or "goodwill" :twisted:
* others (?)

Some products/services would fall in one of the two above categories, and some in both. e.g. selling 500 Stallion trucks or a million 5.56mm rounds (i.e. "commodities") to Malaysia might be purely financial deals, with little or no political benefits involved. Or a combination, say when they're sold to Angola or Zimbabwe. Or purely political, when they're gifted to, say, SL, Nepal or Myanmar.

What is India's main motivation for exporting, from a purely national interest p.o.v (as opposed to company interest) ? How does that dictate what type of exports we should push for ?

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Postby Sanku » 07 Sep 2007 14:29

Good question: and though I dont claim to know the answer; one possible factor that I mentioned in my previous post; i.e. Shiv's assertion on how surplus capacity in Mil-Ind complex was useful in times of crises; the only way to maintain a surplus (without going down the drain like USSR) was to export to other suckers.

Essentially I suppose from a national interest POV; a strong Mil-Ind complex is essential; and the only way for that large Mil-Ind complex to be viable (commerically; technology wise; keep man power motivated; provide experience etc. etc..) is to not confine it to the national boundaries but feed off as many oppertunities as possible which would also add to overall "aura" (which is more than pol leverage) of the country.

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Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2007 15:45

Sanku,the point is that China developed an arms export industry despite having limited access to modern defence technology.Pak being its most valuable client.That's because of its single-mindedness pursuit of an objective.Today,Airbus is setting up an entire factory in China to produce A-320s! It is making tremendous strides and with its financial and political muscle,will promote its sales to many smaller countries,where it has strategic objectives.We on the other hand ,despite our large needs, have made little or no progress with civilian aircraft,barring Avros and Do-228s.We need to set up a single window export entity that can showcase our products and route our enquiries.

One great piece of news,the DRDO is to (finally) launch a (MALE) UCAV programme,later on develop a HALE bird too.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Sep 2007 15:58

Oh I accept the single minded pursuit of the Chinese; however I suppose the discussion is also on the methods and not only on the intent.

I agreee that China can and should be a role model on the intent/political will/establishment behavior front. However your post did not make that part clear (at least to me) and it seems you ask us to learn from their methods as well which prompted by reply.

Thanks for the clarification; yes I assume a clear idea of WHY and WHAT about exports in sorely needed first; as Kartman alludes to in his post before we can get to HOW.

Cheers...

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Postby Rudranath » 08 Sep 2007 11:00

The Government, through Defence Public Sector Undertakings & Ordnance Factory Boards, has exported defence products amounting to Rs. 428.84 crores during the year 2006-2007
[quote]
SALE OF DEFENCE PRODUCTS TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES

Encouraging exports of defence products is an on-going exercise and Defence Public Sector Undertakings and Ordnance Factory Board are engaged in sale of Defence products to countries like Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bhutan etc.

The Government, through Defence Public Sector Undertakings & Ordnance Factory Boards, has exported defence products amounting to Rs. 428.84 crores during the year 2006-2007.

During 2005-2007, proposals for possible purchase of defence products have been received from various countries like Indonesia, Chile, Nepal, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Israel, Algeria, Botswana, Kenya, Belgium, Cyprus, Turkey, Surinam etc. and these are examined and orders executed in consultation with the Defence Public Sector Undertakings and Ordnance Factory Board and Ministry of External Affairs.

This information was given by the Of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh in a written reply to Shri Subhash Sureshchandra Deshmukh in Lok Sabha today.

PILOTLESS AIRCRAFT LAKSHYA

So far, 23 Pilotless Target Aircraft Lakshya have been inducted into the defence services. The production cost of one aircraft is Rs. 293.75 lakh. Some countries, like Singapore, Malaysia and Israel have expressed interest for “paid demonstrationâ€

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Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2007 19:18

Dear Rudra,thanks for that bit of news.The export figure stated is far healthier.However,we can do a lot better and should have targets in billions.

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Postby negi » 08 Sep 2007 22:39

Kartman wrote:Umm, stupid question... but why does India want to export ?


Um.. imho the desire to tap the Int market in terms of military exports is driven by same factors which govern our other exports,i.e. MONEY.

What is India's main motivation for exporting, from a purely national interest p.o.v (as opposed to company interest) ? How does that dictate what type of exports we should push for ?

I envisage the following

I guess it is very much understood that all the defense eqpt after all is a comodity which has value in the international market,and it is pretty much evident that a trade in this area involves huge profit margins ;other geo-political benifits notwithstanding.

When we talk of exports I mean that our defense industry continue to develop and manufacture systems for our services in a dedicated manner ,and at the same time be able to clinch an overseas deal for supplying a system if the desi one fits the bill and technology involved is deemed non critical (we can ofcourse price our product aggresively for obvious reasons).We can then build upon our success in the niche systems and climb up the food chain as evident from JC's posts in this thread.

As for the National Interests well I guess our defense establishement is the best judge of the same.For instance while the RMAF Su MKM's do have a fair bit of Indian content the radar on board the MKM is devoid of the Indian components as on the BARS N011M Mk.3.


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