Women in Combat

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asprinzl
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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby asprinzl » 26 Sep 2008 05:51

I did spend sometime travelling in Singapore, Indonesia and Malaysia. In Singapore and Malaysia there are lots of stories like the four ladies. Trick is one must spend sometime getting to know folks. The best place to hear stories and meet similar folks is of all places- Tamil barber shops. Especially in rural and small towns is the best watering hole where Indians males of all walks converge. I mean you wont meet the female INA vets but the men. You relate to them you were a soldier and soon you get to know one or two. Then the beret comes out, then other memorablias such as water canteen, uniform buttons, epaulets, old photos and sometimes discharge papers issued by the British after they were interrogated and released. With my broken, rudimentary and heavily accented Tamil....yet I made some friends.

I had wanted to go back and visit again but Malaysia has become so hostile to Jews. There in the media has been way too much Yehudi this Yehudi that and Zionist this Zionist that. It is just nauseating.
Avram

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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby Baljeet » 26 Sep 2008 06:24

Avram
Are you surprised by that? Doesn't it seem like that ever since oil prices have shot up and KSA(Kingdom of Stupid A****) been playing their games behind scene through targeted media in friendly countries. These A-Rabids know they can't beat Israel in technology so they need numbers to defeat technological superiority. Wait and see in near future when they start recruiting combat soldiers under the name of M&M (Mecca and Medina) lashkar. They will just be cannon fodders. Just like Lenin said, Quantity has its own Quality. KSA is flushed with cash and they are using every means available however subtle they maybe, to establish the Caliphate of Old days.

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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby Shankar » 26 Sep 2008 11:29

women can fight and is fighting -the sooner we forget the "delicate sensibility and stop talking about the need for privacy to relieve ineself in battlefield the better it will for Indian armed forces -giving it a cohesion like never before .Just because we have a large population does not mean we ignore half of it

Lt us consider the vast frontier particularly on sino indian context - if the local women is part of the military structure -active or reserve it will allow us a far stronger defense than toady .


CONTRIBUTIONS OF WOMEN
TO U.S. COMBAT
OPERATIONS
BY
COLONEL THRESA BURNES
United States Army Reserve

Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom
Opportunities for women in the military continue to expand in the 21st century and
women now make up more than 15 percent of the DOD force as compared to 12
percent in 1980s and 90s.29 Females are proudly serving in increasingly dangerous
career fields as they perform their duties adjacent and sometimes within enemy lines.30
Although women have prevailed in their attempts to embed themselves indiscriminately
into the military structure, they still fall short of serving in direct combat with their male
counterparts. In spite of the inequality and the policies that keep women out of combat,
military service women are frequently engaged in combat because of the fact that the
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battlefront is no longer linear and extends throughout the area of operations. Female
service members are supporting America and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan alongside
their male counterparts.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not being fought on traditional battlefields,
and insurgents do not discriminate between American women and men. Over 101
American military women have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since the war started in
March 2003. Of the 101 killed 64 women lost their lives fighting in hostile territory while
serving the nation.31 All service personnel regardless of gender must contribute to the
battle in order to win freedom for foreign nations and their people by defending the
world from insurgencies. The following is just a few examples of how women are
serving in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.
On 16 October in Karbala, Iraq, three women's actions and courage saved
many of their fellow Soldiers’ lives. PFC Teresa Broadwell Grace was out
on patrol, serving as the gunner in 2nd squad/2nd platoon when the call
came out for assistance. Upon arrival, they entered the kill zone and PFC
Grace immediately started laying down short controlled bursts from her M-
249 machine gun. It was through her actions that the Iraqis were forced to
run for cover. She used tracer rounds to gauge for accuracy and allow
other gunners to see where they were firing. The platoon leader credits
Grace's actions with saving his life. She assisted her lieutenant in
securing the wounded Soldiers and then returned to her weapon to
provide security. Meanwhile, a combat medic, Sergeant Misty Frazier,
was out on the street running from one fallen comrade to another, all the
while dodging a hail of bullets. All she could say was "I was lucky".
Finally SPC Corrie Jones’ patrol moved in to back up PFC Grace's squad.
Immediately Jones began firing at the Iraqis and they withdrew from the
fight. I share this story to say no one knows how he or she will act once
they experience combat, will the training override the fear? Jones's
statement following the gunfight was "Now, I know how strong I am”. Her
commander estimated that they killed more than twenty Iraqis during the
encounter.32
Captain (CPT) Kellie McCoy was the first woman assigned to the 82nd Airborne
to receive the Bronze Star with "V" device while serving in Iraq. This award is
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presented to individuals for bravery, acts of merit or meritorious service; the “V”
represents valor, so it identifies an act of combat heroism. CPT McCoy’s convoy hit a
daisy-chained Improvised Explosive Device (IED) and was ambushed on a highway
near Fallujah. The first IED went off about 15 feet in front of the second vehicle (CPT
McCoy’s vehicle) and the second IED disabled the first vehicle. Immediately, the
convoy came under small arms and Rocket-Propelled Grenade (RPG) fire disabling the
third and fourth vehicles. CPT McCoy drove her vehicle through the smoke and
commotion, to pick up all her unit personnel, including three wounded Soldiers. After
she had accountability for everyone, she quickly headed for a safe zone. Her heroic
actions spared the lives of all 10 of her unit members.33 CPT McCoy lives by a
fundamental military value of not leaving any American personnel behind on the
battlefield.
SGT Hester is another example of a female soldier who took heroic actions in
combat while assigned to the National Guard’s 617th MP Company. As a team leader,
she meticulously prepared load plans and cross-trained her unit personnel on both
equipment and battle drills. In June 2005, SGT Hester was awarded the Silver Star, the
nation’s third-highest medal for valor, for her role in leading a firefight with insurgents.
She was the first woman to receive the award since World War II. When Hester’s
convoy came under attack, she led her team through the kill zone and into flanking
positions. At the conclusion of a 45-minute firefight, 27 insurgents were dead, six
wounded, and one captured. When asked how she felt about being the first woman to
receive the award since WWII, she noted, “It really doesn't have anything to do with
being a female.” Then she added, “It's about the duties I performed that day as a
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Soldier.”34 SPC Ashley Pullen received the Bronze Star for her actions during the same
ambush in which SGT Hester led the counterattack. During the attack, SPC Pullen
provided suppressive fire and later exposed herself to hostile fire in order to render
medical attention to her wounded comrades. Her contributions to repelling an attack in
direct combat saved several lives that day. SSG Timothy Nein, a member of SGT
Hester’s team affirmed, “It's due to their dedication and their ability to stay there and
back me up that we were able to do what we did that day.”35
Combat Exclusion Policy
As DOD transforms into a force capable of meeting the challenges of the 21st
century, it must reevaluate the restrictions of the Combat Exclusion Policy. The Combat
Exclusion Policy was implemented in 1994 to prohibit women from serving in direct
combat roles. Excluding women from combat roles in the military is predominantly due
to national social attitudes and traditions. A segment of the American population
thought that women should be protected from harm and should not kill; however, this
trend seems to be changing as a result of current operations.36 A 1998 U.S. General
Accounting Office (GAO) Report concluded that “the idea of women in direct combat
roles continues to lack Congressional and public support.”37 However, a more recent
CNN/USA Today / Gallup poll indicates that 72 percent of American public supports
women serving in Iraq, while 44 percent support them serving in Iraq as “ground troops
who are doing most of the fighting.”38 Societal expectations of women’s role in combat
are changing as a result of increasing numbers of women in the military and the work
force.
14
The 1994 Department of Defense (DoD) female assignment policy specified
“direct combat” as an inappropriate activity for women.39 The following is an excerpt
from the DOD Combat Exclusion Policy:
Rule: service members are eligible to be assigned to all positions for
which they are qualified, except that women shall be excluded from
assignment to units below the brigade level whose primary mission is to
engage in direct combat on the ground, as defined below.
Definition: Direct ground combat is engaging an enemy on the ground with
individual or crew served weapons, while being exposed to hostile fire and
to a high probability of direct physical contact with hostile forces
personnel. Direct ground combat takes place well forward on the
battlefield while locating and closing with the enemy to defeat them by fire,
maneuver or shock effect.40
DoD policy restricts the assignment of women from places where units and
positions are doctrinally required to collocate and remain with direct combat units that
are closed to women.41 The collocation rule is specifically designed to keep women out
of harm’s way, away from the area where direct combat is likely to occur. This rule is
difficult to implement in combat where there are dynamic battlefields such as we have in
Iraq and Afghanistan. DOD’s current force includes approximately 15 percent women
which is an unprecedented number of women deployed to combat zones. Unlike
combat of the last century, the modern battle is asymmetric and noncontiguous in which
there are no front and rear areas. Women are being exposed to combat and in some
cases direct combat on a routine basis.
Today, women in all military services are involved in military conflicts as fighters,
bombers, helicopter and transport pilots; as physicians, medics, and nurses; and as
crew members ashore and afloat. Servicewomen are frequently engaged in firefights
with enemy insurgents while guarding convoys, traveling in hostile territory, or
performing military police duties and other vital support functions.42 In spite of the
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ongoing arguments and debates, women are performing combat roles on a daily basis
and the DOD Policy on Women in Combat needs to be adjusted to reflect this reality.
DoD is undergoing all kinds of changes as it executes the Global War on Terror
(GWOT)such as the development of new weapons systems and force structure. One
significant issue is the increase in the roles, responsibilities, and contributions of
women, to include their increasing participation in combat. The front lines of a
battlefield are no longer defined, so military women are finding themselves in the heat of
battle an exposed to the rigors of combat. What has changed substantially is the
asymmetric way of warfare, the nonlinear battlefield, the dispersed transnational enemy,
the new modular Army, and society’s growing acceptance of women in combat.43
Conclusion
Women have overcome scores of obstacles in the military to prove they are just
as capable as their male counterparts. Most of the career fields that are closed to
women are because of the inherent danger of the duties with regard to the propensity to
serve in direct combat. Historically, it seems that the American public was not ready to
have women go to combat however; recent reports indicate that the public is more
accepting of the role of women in combat. Military policies continue to restrict women’s
roles in combat and these policies need to be reevaluated because women are serving
in combat but are not compensated for their service and performance.
Today, service women are stationed around the globe and have served in nearly
every U.S. military deployment. Military women are serving on ships, flying combatrelated
missions and positioned near the front line with ground units. In spite of their
sacrifice and outstanding duty performance, women continue to be denied the right to
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serve in some combat related positions which, hinders their opportunities for promotion.
Women have proven themselves and have earned the right to fight and die for their
country. Women have volunteered for over 300 years to serve the country even when
the nation failed to recognize or compensate them for their dedicated service. There
are numerous examples of ordinary women performing extraordinarily things in combat.
Throughout the last 60 years, women have been gradually integrated throughout the
U.S. Armed Forces and they have acquired the expertise to serve in almost all military
specialties during combat.
The military is adapting to operate effectively in the changing global environment
to include the steady increase in female contributions to the services mission. Women’s
contributions to the military throughout history have been critical to achieving national
interests. Past and present deployments reveal that women are leading by example
and providing effective support to a number of combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There are number of women who are volunteering for direct combat missions especially
as the military experiences critical shortages in some career specialties.
As the military continues to fight a transnational, dispersed enemy that employs
irregular tactics in asymmetric warfare, more female service members are engaging in
direct combat despite the 1994 DoD policy that prohibits women serving in combat. It is
recommended by many sources that DoD immediately repeal the Combat Exclusionary
Policy to align with the conditions of the modern asymmetric battlefield. The roles for
women in the 21st century military are constantly evolving because of the changing
nature of combat and war. It is America’s moral obligation and duty to recognize and
honor women past and present, and future, who put their lives on the line or gave the
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ultimate sacrifice of their life for their country in combat. This paper provides historical
data on service women’s contributions in combat that helps to substantiate the
recommendation for DoD strategic leaders to rescind the combat exclusion policy.

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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby Shankar » 26 Sep 2008 11:56

Women Combat Aviators of the Patriotic War

Author: Linda DeLaine
Publication: Website
Date: Thursday, March 15, 2007


Summary: Told that the Rodina was not in so bad a shape that she needed girls to protect her, these future heroes were sent home to their mothers. Soon, they were called back and became a crucial element in the protection of their homeland and victory over Nazi Germany.

The German attack and attempt to conquer Russia was/is known as Operation Barbarossa and was supposed to last only 10 weeks.

The reaction in the Soviet Union to this treaty breaking attack by Germany was much the same as in the U.S. after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor later that same year. Everyone was angered by this attack on their Rodina (Motherland). The Soviet Air Force had to be rebuilt and there was no shortage of volunteers; men and women alike. During the first two decades of the Soviet era, there were a number of military flying clubs known as Osoaviakhim. Girls were welcome to join these clubs along with boys. They learned at a young age how to parachute and fly gliders. As a result, the typical 17 year old flying club student had more flying experience than the Soviet Air Force pilots at the front.

Despite their experience and enthusiasm, when these young women presented themselves at the recruiting offices, they were turned away. They were told that the Rodina was not in so bad a shape that she needed girls to protect her. These future heroes were sent home to their mothers. The Nazi invasion was so swift and intense that it did not take long for Soviet officials to reverse their position and these young women were asked to serve. Their training took place in Moscow at about the same time young American women were training in Sweetwater, Texas. One important difference existed: the Soviet women, like their American counterparts, came from all over their country. However, in route to their training by train, Soviet women saw first-hand the enemy's destruction of their homeland. In fact, the Luftwaffe routinely attacked these trains which also carried soldiers headed for the front.

Three all volunteer female air force regiments were formed in 1942. Each regiment had three squadrons of 10 planes each and included some 400 women. Not only were the pilots women, so were the mechanics and other ground support personnel. The three regiments were the:

* 586th Women's Fighter Regiment (initially equipped with Yakovlyev YaK-1s and later YaK-7Bs; stationed at Saratov, on the Volga River north of Stalingrad)

The 586th was first women's regiment to go to the front. Their commander was Tamara Kazarinova and they racked up an impressive 4,419 sorties and 38 kills. The 586th's primary mission was to force back enemy bomber and not allow them to reach their targets. One of the squadron commanders, Olga Yamshchikova, logged 93 sorties and was credited with three kills. She went on to become the first Soviet woman jet test pilot. Fighter aces, Lilya Litvyak and Ekaterina Budanova, both members of the 586th, joined the all male 73rd Fighter Regiment and fought in the battles over Stalingrad.

The 586th fought in over 125 air battles and a majority of the pilots logged roughly 1,000 mission each. On July 5, 1943, they took part in the decisive Battle of Kursk. The highlight of the 586th's service was to take part in the last attack on Berlin in 1945.

* 587th Women's Day Bomber Regiment (flying Petlyakov Pe-2 2-engined bombers with a 3 person crew including a pilot, navigator, and radio operator/gunner)
The 587th did not see combat until January 1943. Initially, the women trained in the SU-2, a 2 person craft. Then, they were switched to the 3 person crew PE-2 aircraft and re-training had to take place before they could be put into active duty. Eventually, men were included in this regiment.

* 588th Women's Night Bomber Regiment, the famous "Night Witches" (flying Polikarpov Po-2 biplanes)
The 588th received the honor of the 46th Guards Bomber Aviation Regiment, making them the first all female regiment to receive this distinction. This group reported to the southern front in May 1942, flew 24,000 sorties, unloaded 23,000 tons of bombs and was commanded by Yevdokia Bershanskaya. Several of the members of the 588th became Heroes of the Soviet Union. This unit was totally female during the war.

Thousands of other women served alongside male counterparts in various units of the Soviet Air Force. In 1944, roughly 3,000 women were a part of the Far East 10th Air Army, another ca. 440 were serving with the 4th Air Army of the 2nd Belorussian and the 46th Guards Women Air Regiment with its 237 female officers, over 850 sergeants and some 1,100 enlisted women.

Possibly one of the most distressing requirements of military life for the women aviators had to do with hair. In many of the cultures that made up the Soviet Union, long, beautiful hair was a thing of great pride. Many of the women had never had their hair cut and their braids reached to below their waists. To make them look more like warriors and, possible for practical safety reasons, the women were ordered to cut their hair to a length of no more than two inches. As the women cut each others' long locks, it was both a time of considerable sadness and a sacrifice made willingly for their Rodina.

The women pilots soon proved their superior skills in combat. The first German bomber to be shot down by a woman pilot was the Junkers Ju-88 in September, 1942. The best women pilots began serving alongside their male counterparts.

One such female pilot was Lily Litvak, aka "White Rose of Stalingrad." Lily, like her name, was a beauty and adored flowers. She painted a white rose on each side of her cockpit and often carried flowers on board during her missions. Lily was so good at what she did that Nazi pilots would, reportedly, stay clear of her sights when they saw the YAK with the white roses coming their way. In her first year of combat service, Lily was shot down three times and made 12 kills. At age 22 and in July 1943, Lily was engaged by eight Nazi fighters. They managed to shoot her down and kill her. Lily and her plane have not been found.

In all, Soviet women pilots completed over 24,000 sorties and 68 of their number received the Gold Star, Hero of the Soviet Union award. They never carried parachutes and agreed that, if captured, they would shoot themselves.

Soviet women aviators played a crucial role in the defense of their homeland and the victory over Nazi Germany. After the Patriotic War, these heroes returned to their country's farms and factories. Many married fellow pilots or soldiers. Like the men, they returned to heavy losses of family, friends and homes. At the beginning of the Patriotic War, Soviet officials questioned the wisdom of sending women into combat situations. These women proved that they were more than up to the ta
sk at hand.

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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby Shankar » 26 Sep 2008 12:02

[quote]First Muslim woman joins Israeli Air Force

ERUSALEM -- An error led to the first-ever female Muslim Israeli-Arab soldier recently joining one of the Israeli Air Force elite units. But after the mistake was discovered the unit's commander was so impressed with the woman's ability and achievements that he allowed her to stay, breaking all the rules.

The IAF's elite Airborne Combat Search and Rescue Unit 669 is normally involved in sensitive and highly classified Israeli Defense Forces operations and is considered one of the Israeli military's premier units.Unit 669 requires an even higher security clearance. Consequently no Muslim has ever served in this unit, in either an administrative or combat capacity.

So when the Muslim background of the young woman, who is a medic and from an Arab village in the north of Israel and whom the IDF has refused to name, was accidentally discovered there was consternation all around.

She had just completed her medic training course with top honors, and was immediately placed with Unit 669. Subsequent investigation later revealed that an error had been made, but due to her exceptional skills her commander insisted that she remain with the unit[/quote]

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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby Gerard » 18 Apr 2009 04:25


Gerard
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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby Gerard » 18 Apr 2009 04:26

First women fighter pilots to join parade
SIXTEEN Chinese women jet fighter pilots will take part in the National Day parade to be held in October to mark the 60th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic of China, a military source said Thursday.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gerard » 13 Jul 2009 06:35


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Baljeet » 14 Jul 2009 08:07

Poonam Kaur incidence should shed light on this subject. Anyone who thinks women are some barbie doll without any flaws is a MORON. Desi Mahilayen has taken a fig leaf from every western country to claim all the glory but none of the responsibility. Taking a cue from "Women in Combat" some losers are filing a law suit against the very instituition that made them capable of honorable profession. First Poonam Kaur is driven by greed and pension, she wants to milk the gov't and once she is sacked she wants to milk corporate India for her best interest. It is all about money, I wouldn't be surprised if she pulls a minority or Sikh card to get her way. Army is doing the right thing, not sure if people and society are willing to do the right thing. :?:

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby RayC » 14 Jul 2009 13:49

The problem in this country is that if one says I am a Dalit or I am a woman, the balance of justice weights in their favour.

That idiot MP who slapped a Bank official right in front of the TV camera said it was a conspiracy because he is a Dalit!

He should have been kicked in his bottom and instead he got off by just apologising.

Stupid Justice!

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Sachin » 14 Jul 2009 14:18

Baljeet wrote:Poonam Kaur incidence should shed light on this subject. Anyone who thinks women are some barbie doll without any flaws is a MORON. Desi Mahilayen has taken a fig leaf from every western country to claim all the glory but none of the responsibility.

Keeping this in mind, and for the overall cohesion of the Army, is it better not to recruit ladies as commissioned officers? These things might work out in Western countries were the attitudes/cultural aspects/society are totally different.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby chetak » 14 Jul 2009 14:22

Baljeet wrote:Poonam Kaur incidence should shed light on this subject. Anyone who thinks women are some barbie doll without any flaws is a MORON. Desi Mahilayen has taken a fig leaf from every western country to claim all the glory but none of the responsibility. Taking a cue from "Women in Combat" some losers are filing a law suit against the very instituition that made them capable of honorable profession. First Poonam Kaur is driven by greed and pension, she wants to milk the gov't and once she is sacked she wants to milk corporate India for her best interest. It is all about money, I wouldn't be surprised if she pulls a minority or Sikh card to get her way. Army is doing the right thing, not sure if people and society are willing to do the right thing. :?:


Baljeet ji,

There are many poonam kaurs in the forces. Once they realize that they can sit in headquarters and draw sarkari salary for doing sweet ****all, for many of them opt to do so by hook and by crook. Many get married, pop out babies like ninepins, rapaciously settle down to tend to their babies and extended families, all the while preparing for a well paying career on the civil side. These ladies take one and all for a ride. When some superiors object, that is when the sexual misconduct charges tend to surface.

It really took guts and courage to bring this lady officer to book. Many others have escaped after causing much damage and embarrassment to their male colleagues and superiors.

99% of folks will take it as gospel truth when any sexual misconduct charges are levelled against male colleagues. Right until the day that such charges are levelled against some of these 99% idiot folks.

In such circumstances, the law has to take its own silly course. Many a fine career has been wiped out by such frivolous charges. Even if proved false later as is often the case, the black mark for the males continues lifelong, damaging family and social ties.

Even if everyone knows that there is no substance in the charges, investigation has to continue. This is a very damaging process both for the male officer and his Service. Often the female officer gets off scott free, shooting shit and running away. DDM has a field day reporting in great falsified detail, often quoting the lady officer's grandmother or chacha.

At the same time there are also fine, upstanding and dedicated female officers who gel well with the team and are indeed an asset to the unit. These however seem to be in a minority :)

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby RayC » 14 Jul 2009 14:30

I have worked with women officers.

Some of them are the finest you can find. Dedicated and very hard working.

And some are plain BUMs.

So you cannot broadbrush the utility of these female officers.

I will also be frank, they are disadvantaged. I know of cases of sexual harrassment. It requires strict senior officers to ensure that the environment is fair and just.

The Kaur woman is a disgrace to the Army and to women!

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Drevin » 14 Jul 2009 19:26

Is it common to have women soldiers or are they only in non-frontline roles?? Like intelligence, medico's, electronics experts ...

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby nelson » 14 Jul 2009 19:41

Drevin wrote:Is it common to have women soldiers or are they only in non-frontline roles?? Like intelligence, medico's, electronics experts ...


There are no women soldiers only women officers with short service commission upto 14 years of service in most branches ie engineers, signals, air-defence, service corps, ordnance, eme, int.
They are in medical, dental, veterinary, education corps and judge-advocate department with option of permanent commission. Women officers are not allowed in infantry, mechanised infantry, armoured, artillery, aviation.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby chetak » 14 Jul 2009 19:55

nelson wrote:
Drevin wrote:Is it common to have women soldiers or are they only in non-frontline roles?? Like intelligence, medico's, electronics experts ...


There are no women soldiers only women officers with short service commission upto 14 years of service in most branches ie engineers, signals, air-defence, service corps, ordnance, eme, int.
They are in medical, dental, veterinary, education corps and judge-advocate department with option of permanent commission. Women officers are not allowed in infantry, mechanised infantry, armoured, artillery, aviation.




Lady Medical officers have been in the Indian Armed forces for ages.

They seem to have adapted better to life in the Forces and are more readily accepted than the non medico lady officers.

There is also a lot less nakhra with this lot.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby rachel » 14 Jul 2009 20:29

Women in combat positions in the military is all a bunch of PC bull(^(^. NO GOOD ever comes of it... excluding desperate situations like Russia in WW2 where everyone has to fight to preserve the nation in imminent peril.

But for USA and India? Bunch of baloney. All it does is create problems. Distracts the males, prevents everyone from doing their job.

How many pregnancies and problems in Gulf for the US forces because of this ridiculous political feminist garbage?

Anyway, America is a rich nation,.. they can afford this nonsense. Few billion wasted? Big deal.

Hope INDIA doesnt blindly imitate the West and forget our situation is different from them..

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Re: Women in Combat - 2

Postby rachel » 14 Jul 2009 20:32

Shankar wrote:
Women Combat Aviators of the Patriotic War

Author: Linda DeLaine
Publication: Website
Date: Thursday, March 15, 2007


Summary: Told that the Rodina was not in so bad a shape that she needed girls to protect her, these future heroes were sent home to their mothers. Soon, they were called back and became a crucial element in the protection of their homeland and victory over Nazi Germany.

The German attack and attempt to conquer Russia was/is known as Operation Barbarossa and was supposed to last only 10 weeks.

The reaction in the Soviet Union to this treaty breaking attack by Germany was much the same as in the U.S. after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor later that same year. Everyone was angered by this attack on their Rodina (Motherland). The Soviet Air Force had to be rebuilt and there was no shortage of volunteers; men and women alike. During the first two decades of the Soviet era, there were a number of military flying clubs known as Osoaviakhim. Girls were welcome to join these clubs along with boys. They learned at a young age how to parachute and fly gliders. As a result, the typical 17 year old flying club student had more flying experience than the Soviet Air Force pilots at the front.

Despite their experience and enthusiasm, when these young women presented themselves at the recruiting offices, they were turned away. They were told that the Rodina was not in so bad a shape that she needed girls to protect her. These future heroes were sent home to their mothers. The Nazi invasion was so swift and intense that it did not take long for Soviet officials to reverse their position and these young women were asked to serve. Their training took place in Moscow at about the same time young American women were training in Sweetwater, Texas. One important difference existed: the Soviet women, like their American counterparts, came from all over their country. However, in route to their training by train, Soviet women saw first-hand the enemy's destruction of their homeland. In fact, the Luftwaffe routinely attacked these trains which also carried soldiers headed for the front.

Three all volunteer female air force regiments were formed in 1942. Each regiment had three squadrons of 10 planes each and included some 400 women. Not only were the pilots women, so were the mechanics and other ground support personnel. The three regiments were the:

* 586th Women's Fighter Regiment (initially equipped with Yakovlyev YaK-1s and later YaK-7Bs; stationed at Saratov, on the Volga River north of Stalingrad)

The 586th was first women's regiment to go to the front. Their commander was Tamara Kazarinova and they racked up an impressive 4,419 sorties and 38 kills. The 586th's primary mission was to force back enemy bomber and not allow them to reach their targets. One of the squadron commanders, Olga Yamshchikova, logged 93 sorties and was credited with three kills. She went on to become the first Soviet woman jet test pilot. Fighter aces, Lilya Litvyak and Ekaterina Budanova, both members of the 586th, joined the all male 73rd Fighter Regiment and fought in the battles over Stalingrad.

The 586th fought in over 125 air battles and a majority of the pilots logged roughly 1,000 mission each. On July 5, 1943, they took part in the decisive Battle of Kursk. The highlight of the 586th's service was to take part in the last attack on Berlin in 1945.

* 587th Women's Day Bomber Regiment (flying Petlyakov Pe-2 2-engined bombers with a 3 person crew including a pilot, navigator, and radio operator/gunner)
The 587th did not see combat until January 1943. Initially, the women trained in the SU-2, a 2 person craft. Then, they were switched to the 3 person crew PE-2 aircraft and re-training had to take place before they could be put into active duty. Eventually, men were included in this regiment.

* 588th Women's Night Bomber Regiment, the famous "Night Witches" (flying Polikarpov Po-2 biplanes)
The 588th received the honor of the 46th Guards Bomber Aviation Regiment, making them the first all female regiment to receive this distinction. This group reported to the southern front in May 1942, flew 24,000 sorties, unloaded 23,000 tons of bombs and was commanded by Yevdokia Bershanskaya. Several of the members of the 588th became Heroes of the Soviet Union. This unit was totally female during the war.

Thousands of other women served alongside male counterparts in various units of the Soviet Air Force. In 1944, roughly 3,000 women were a part of the Far East 10th Air Army, another ca. 440 were serving with the 4th Air Army of the 2nd Belorussian and the 46th Guards Women Air Regiment with its 237 female officers, over 850 sergeants and some 1,100 enlisted women.

Possibly one of the most distressing requirements of military life for the women aviators had to do with hair. In many of the cultures that made up the Soviet Union, long, beautiful hair was a thing of great pride. Many of the women had never had their hair cut and their braids reached to below their waists. To make them look more like warriors and, possible for practical safety reasons, the women were ordered to cut their hair to a length of no more than two inches. As the women cut each others' long locks, it was both a time of considerable sadness and a sacrifice made willingly for their Rodina.

The women pilots soon proved their superior skills in combat. The first German bomber to be shot down by a woman pilot was the Junkers Ju-88 in September, 1942. The best women pilots began serving alongside their male counterparts.

One such female pilot was Lily Litvak, aka "White Rose of Stalingrad." Lily, like her name, was a beauty and adored flowers. She painted a white rose on each side of her cockpit and often carried flowers on board during her missions. Lily was so good at what she did that Nazi pilots would, reportedly, stay clear of her sights when they saw the YAK with the white roses coming their way. In her first year of combat service, Lily was shot down three times and made 12 kills. At age 22 and in July 1943, Lily was engaged by eight Nazi fighters. They managed to shoot her down and kill her. Lily and her plane have not been found.

In all, Soviet women pilots completed over 24,000 sorties and 68 of their number received the Gold Star, Hero of the Soviet Union award. They never carried parachutes and agreed that, if captured, they would shoot themselves.

Soviet women aviators played a crucial role in the defense of their homeland and the victory over Nazi Germany. After the Patriotic War, these heroes returned to their country's farms and factories. Many married fellow pilots or soldiers. Like the men, they returned to heavy losses of family, friends and homes. At the beginning of the Patriotic War, Soviet officials questioned the wisdom of sending women into combat situations. These women proved that they were more than up to the ta
sk at hand.


SOVIET UNION tried very hard, as policy, to blur differences tween genders. 'THERE ARE NO GENDERS, ve are all PROLETARIATS'.

Take these exagerrated writings of Commie propaganda with huge doses of salt.

This reads so much like propaganda.

Sing along with me, Rakshakers!
'Anything you can do I can do better!'

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Baljeet » 15 Jul 2009 21:47

rachel wrote:Hope INDIA doesnt blindly imitate the West and forget our situation is different from them..

That's exactly what we are doing. After all how do you become sahib from brown, by imitating Gora sahib. Female warriors of america has found a way to milk the system for all its worth. For example, if they are getting transferred in combat zone, get pregnant and you are automatically removed from combat and combat support duty. Now you get to live in stateside and enjoy all the benefits with minimal responsibility.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Surya » 15 Jul 2009 22:25

Could we stop this childish tarring of everyone with a broad brush?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby ssmitra » 15 Jul 2009 23:10

Hi Baljeet you have been sadly misinformed. American women in combat do not get any more or less pregnant than their civilian counterparts. However if you follow the timeline of their integration into combat positions it was more out of necessity rather than a ques of gender equality. During the start of GWII most women were in supply companies and supply clerks and were supposed to remain behind the frontlines, but within a few weeks the reality of this war set in and that being their not being any frontlines. Infact the vast majority of the attacks by the Iraqi insurgents were on supply lines which made the supply companies right on the front line. Infact a majority of purple hearts (given to those injured in combat) went to men and women in the supply and transportation company.

The next requirement was that of women to search and interact with the female population to not only prevent the insurgents from hiding and transporting weapons but also try and get information from them. Initially they were taken from the so called non combat units but were obviously found under-trained in high intensity urban combat. That was the start of the lioness program by the US marine corps. This below should give you some idea on it.
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showt ... p?p=251018

I hope I can change your mind that they have served their country and have done so with great dignity and pride.
I am not arguing whether the same is right for IA or not just that those who have served deserve full respect.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Baljeet » 15 Jul 2009 23:39

SSMitra
I guess you are the authority on US Military and must have the close relationship with field commanders and must have been embedded with units. What I have seen up close and personal, my assessment is based on that.
Purple heart is to boost morale its not like silver star, or medal of honor.

Why is it that those who have never worn a uniform, don't know the reality are the ones thumping their chest about military affairs and then preach others in the nuances. :P

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby ssmitra » 17 Jul 2009 00:33

Baljeet wrote:SSMitra
I guess you are the authority on US Military and must have the close relationship with field commanders and must have been embedded with units. What I have seen up close and personal, my assessment is based on that.
Purple heart is to boost morale its not like silver star, or medal of honor.

Why is it that those who have never worn a uniform, don't know the reality are the ones thumping their chest about military affairs and then preach others in the nuances. :P


1. Well so I guess you have been serving in the US military since the first gulf war. well I then salute your service
2. I never said the purple heart had anything to do with courage its simply given to those injured in combat and statistically speaking its a pretty good indicator of which units have been in contact with a hostile force, unless you as an expert say the american military supply companies don't know how to drive and hence they get injured.
Since you have been up close and personal with the US military, You must be familiar with the CC/EUP ratio
Do you not believe that to be good indicator of Basic unit performance.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Baljeet » 17 Jul 2009 02:36

Since you have been up close and personal with the US military, You must be familiar with the CC/EUP ratio
Do you not believe that to be good indicator of Basic unit performance.


I am not sure what you mean by CC/EUP (Combat Casualty and unit Performance ratio) or something else. If it is so that will be discussed sitting in AC GHQ or CHQ by Senior Staff. Most field commanders especially the marines know the capability of their units inside out.
The supply units that you refer to were army units. If jessica Lynch and her cohorts are the examples you are getting at, then I have nothing to say.

It may or may not be a good indicator of hostile contact. Infantry has different contact as compared to Artillery. Both make hostile contact and if there is a direct contact possible, US ground forces call the fly boys to soften the hostile.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 17 Nov 2009 21:24

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 240312.cms
NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force on Tuesday said it was planning to have women fighter pilots in future, but they will be inducted with a pre-condition of not bearing children till a certain age.

"In a few years time, we might see this change (women getting inducted as fighter pilots) coming in with certain pre-conditions that till this age we request you to be happy, be married, but no offsprings," IAF Vice Chief Air Marshal P K Barbora told reporters here.

"After 13-14 years of service, investments made on fighter pilots are actually recovered by the government," he said in an indication that women fighter pilots will be allowed to have kids only after putting in 13-14 years in IAF.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gaur » 17 Nov 2009 22:25

^^IAF planning to have woman fighter pilots in future?
NDTV reports quite to the contrary.
According to NDTV, IAF has no plans to induct women fighter pilots in the future.
http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/air_force_pregnancy_makes_women_pilots_cost-inefficient.php

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gagan » 17 Nov 2009 23:58

That pre condition is a legal minefield. Imagine the field day all the wimmen rights groups will have.
It is a stark fact that has been stated.

However a case in point. Women atheletes have gone back to training and won medals at premiere events even after bearing children.

It all boils down to individual motivation. Someone who is not motivated enough will never make into a fighter pilot's course.

There are quite a few women in the transport fleet and in the helicopter fleet of the IAF. There is no news there on any misdemeanours - One must assume no news is good news.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Rahul M » 18 Nov 2009 02:10

probably better to put an upper limit on no of children during service rather than on the age. the resident doctors would be better placed to answer this, but isn't child bearing after a certain age (30 ?) considered high risk ?
after 13-14 years of service an IAF pilot would be around 35 years old.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby putnanja » 18 Nov 2009 02:39

Navy’s first women combatants to take to the skies

KOCHI: Putting an end to debates over the induction of women into combat roles in the Armed Forces, the Navy on Friday will script history when it enlists two women officers as observers on board its fleet of maritime patrol aircraft (MPA).

With the coveted ‘wings’ conferred on them at a passing-out ceremony here, Sub-Lieutenants Ambica Hooda and Seema Rani Sharma, both 22, will become the first women airborne tacticians of the Navy, which has taken the lead in according equal opportunities by starting entry for women in the observer cadre as Short Service Commissioned Officers.

“Having commendably completed their training, the officers will now be posted to the Dornier maritime reconnaissance squadrons as Electronic Warfare Sensor Officers. And, on a maritime patrol aircraft, observers carry out operation of radar, electronic sensor systems, electronic warfare systems, anti-submarine warfare systems, maritime air operations for independent search and tracking, coordination with the Air Force, and the like,” said Commander P.V.G.K. Nambiar, Officer-in-Charge of the Observer School in INS Garuda, who has overseen the 27-week flying training taken by the women officers, part of a mixed batch of four.
...
...

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 18 Nov 2009 08:24

Rahul M wrote: isn't child bearing after a certain age (30 ?) considered high risk ?
after 13-14 years of service an IAF pilot would be around 35 years old.


Absolutely correct Rahul. That is the catch here. A lady pilot will be required not to get pregnant till 35-37 which is essentially an age when a first pregnancy is more likely to be complicated (by very high blood pressures for instance and risk to mother and baby). Getting pregnant before that period will mean court martial. loss of benefits, loss of career, court case etc - but a signature of consent will have been legally obtained before getting into the AF making it virtually impossible to fight.

The problem is that the fittest and best fighter pilots are between the ages of 22 and 45 (I guess). The fittest and most reproductively capable girls are between 20 and 35.

In effect the rule means that there will be a lot of disincentives to combat flying for women. Some may still take it up though. We do have some women toughies

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby m mittal » 18 Nov 2009 11:01

Being a physician I can answer this question for you guys.....pregnancy especially the 1st pregnancy after the age of 35 is considered as high risk both for the mother and also for the baby. The risk for babies is genetic abnormalities like Downs Syndrome.

I think we should look at what are the criteria for other airforces around the world.........

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby putnanja » 20 Nov 2009 04:34

Barbora remarks invite bouquets and brickbats

...
Pregnancy means you're out of cockpit for 9 months plus recovery time. Re-joining needs retraining as well. Shawna Rochelle Kimbrell, the first female African-American fighter pilot had a baby in 2006. A 2008 article on website 174th Fighter Wing says, "Her as yet unresolved challenge is how having a baby fits in with her career progression. Making decision to have a baby could have been career-ending for Major Kimbrell." She is quoted, "When a pilot is out of the jet for that amount of time, retraining is required. This has the potential to be detrimental to a woman's progression and continues to be a challenge."

A July 2009 blog in NYT has a very pregnant woman fighter pilot posing in her gear. Major Stephanie Kelsen is an American fighter pilot who at 37 was pregnant. The blog raises questions that women fighter pilots themselves can face. Is becoming pregnant imposing a glass ceiling on oneself is first poser.
...

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby samuel » 20 Nov 2009 08:50

I've known many women pilots who are mothers. My own primary and instrument instructor was one such now flying big jets. The number of crunches and miles she could run would put many a pot belied wing over stripe to shame, at 35. She was better than my aerobatic (male) flight instructor, 27. It is absolute hogwash to suggest their pregnancy and subsequent motherhood makes them any less capable as a rule. This rule appears to be a way to avoid getting women pilots into the fighting stream. What is the issue giving them a 1 year break for child bearing, followed by fitness and recertification. Can there be no breaks at set points, say between conversions or some other place? What a goddamn insensitive proposal.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby jaladipc » 20 Nov 2009 09:04

I for one go along side Mr.Barbora on this issue.

He pointed out that every trainee costs the AF a min of 12 crore.Ofcourse money is a always a secondary issue.The primary issue which the Marshal failed to highlight is the availability. Observed the critics saying that a wife not necessarily has to take care of their kids,but I was wondering if the same thing happens in their own house.

Ours is not a western culture.We yindoos are known for sentiments and over nurturing where this female characters comes into play.If a kid becomes sick,both wife and husband feel bad,but 90% of the time it is only the wife that shows extra care and allocates more time with the kid while cutting the time spending on other stuff.But the husband as usually goes to work.
One can cite as many reasons for not wanting female pilots.

Instead of having them as combat pilots I rather like them continuing the same transport/AWACS/.........

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Rahul M » 20 Nov 2009 09:16

shiv wrote:Absolutely correct Rahul. That is the catch here. A lady pilot will be required not to get pregnant till 35-37 which is essentially an age when a first pregnancy is more likely to be complicated (by very high blood pressures for instance and risk to mother and baby). Getting pregnant before that period will mean court martial. loss of benefits, loss of career, court case etc - but a signature of consent will have been legally obtained before getting into the AF making it virtually impossible to fight.

The problem is that the fittest and best fighter pilots are between the ages of 22 and 45 (I guess). The fittest and most reproductively capable girls are between 20 and 35.

In effect the rule means that there will be a lot of disincentives to combat flying for women. Some may still take it up though. We do have some women toughies

perhaps it would be better if the agreement is devoted to the number of months that can be taken off due to pregnancy issues/commit not to have more than one pregnancy before the 13-14 yr service life. (IOW one can't have 4 kids and spend 4 years off flying)

He pointed out that every trainee costs the AF a min of 12 crore.Ofcourse money is a always a secondary issue.The primary issue which the Marshal failed to highlight is the availability

an organisation can afford to have a pilot unavailable for an year or so in a 13-14 year period, especially when there's a serious lack of pilots. the lost time can always be made up later.

OT :
Observed the critics saying that a wife not necessarily has to take care of their kids,but I was wondering if the same thing happens in their own house.

sorry, that's hogwash. this "women belongs to the kitchen" mentality doesn't belong to India.
kindly don't associate it with "yindoos", because there's nothing in it that is inherently "yindoo". in fact the opposite can be argued quite easily.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby samuel » 20 Nov 2009 09:18

Why can't the guy cook at home and take care of the kids (beyond infants)? In our "traditional way," of course we dont do that and pallu don't come up in public. girl stop "sports" at puberty. Well, screw that if women want to step out-- why would one like to come in the way of realizing their dreams of highest service to nation? The first time a mother brings glory to her squadron as a combat pilot all these opinions will zip up. Give them the chance. Blessed be that mother and proud be that son. Thankful be the nation.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby negi » 20 Nov 2009 10:39

This is being blown out of proportions I have always maintained that let female candidates compete with men and against same benchmarks and then they can fly their MKIs or drive Arjuns as much as they like , afterall both are EQUAL onlee , hain ?

ps: no sarcasm intended

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby putnanja » 20 Nov 2009 10:54

People seem to be missing Air Marshal Barbora's comments. Specifically, he raised these issues:

1. Pilot training costs money
2. Pilots going on extended leaves of 8-10 months leaves operational gap
3. To prevent #2 above, it would be better if women postponed having kids.

To be fair, he raises pertinent points. To maintain equality should we have additional pilots to cover defeciencies when women pilots go on leave? Remember that they probably won't be allowed to fly combat duties by the time they are in 2nd trimester all the way till couple of months after delivery. Many of them experience nausea /morning sickness during their first trimester and will be unable to fly. In many airlines like BA etc, women flight attendants will not be allowed to fly from their second trimester onwards. So during their entire pregnancy and till around 2 months after birth, the woman will be unable to fly for around 10-11 months. Their husbands/boyfriends cannot carry the baby for them:) Should we spend money to have extra pilots around just to have gender parity?

Our neighbourhood isn't full of chivalrous nations who will treat their PoWs with dignity. Anyone remember Lt Saurab Kalia? One can only imagine what the pakis will do if a women pilot has to eject over paki territory. Flt Lt Nachiketa got lucky because other pilots saw him eject and there was wide publicity given, which forced the pakis to behave decently with him. Unfortunately, Lt Kalia had no such luck!

It isn't like women don't have flying duties. They do as helicopter and transport aircraft pilots. In fact, I think there is a BR article on a woman transport pilot during Kargil war.

Please read the article from ToI that I posted earlier from american women pilots. They talk of the practical dificulties they have.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gerard » 22 Dec 2009 05:07


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby pgbhat » 22 Dec 2009 05:33

^
'I've got a mission to do, I'm given a finite number of soldiers with which to do it and I need every one of them,' Maj Gen Cucolo said.

One of the disadvantages of mixed units. You can't have people sleeping around at work especially combat zones where people can get killed....OTOH soldiers are also stressed. Didn't Burkha have a program on this?


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