Women in Combat

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby chetak » 04 Mar 2010 18:11




She will take it to the civil courts or the tribunal.

She will appeal and as usual the sentence will be reduced.

At worst she may do three months in jail, if at all.

My money is on her getting away with nil jail time.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gerard » 05 Mar 2010 16:13


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Vivs » 07 Mar 2010 20:46


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shukla » 08 Mar 2010 05:06

Retd woman officer bats for progressive thinking..

Corridors of the MoD and Defence HQs are now debating whether the role of women officers can be extended to permanent commission and whether to include them in combat services as well. To my rational mind, someone has to provide a real convincing reply that if women could serve for 15 years (in the case of short service) what hinders a completion of permanent commission, especially when the three services claim scarcity of officers. A soldier has the right to place his life in danger and he does so consciously. So if the soldier happens to be a woman — why the debate on her security?


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/men ... 311100.htm

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gagan » 08 Mar 2010 05:31


The real truth is that all of those women who were trained during Pervez Musharraf's enlightened moderation era, promptly opted for desk jobs as soon as they could. The current PAF chief was scolding them that they didn't have the patriotism to give back to the nation when the nation had expended scarce resources in training them.

PAF has apparently stopped taking any more women in the flying wing it seems.

:rotfl:

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Surya » 08 Mar 2010 05:46

Gagan you have alink for that??

would be interesting

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gagan » 08 Mar 2010 06:01

I'll have to search for it. This was also referred to in one of the paki forums.

On prelim search. There was a paki forum discussion on this news item by CNN: Link

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gagan » 08 Mar 2010 06:08

Found one link. Post your email ID here and I'll mail it to you. You can delete your mail ID as soon as I tell youto.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Surya » 08 Mar 2010 06:12

deleted

thanks
Last edited by Surya on 08 Mar 2010 07:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gagan » 08 Mar 2010 06:14

mail sent onlee. Please delete mail id

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 08 Mar 2010 07:11

The latest Vayu has a news snippet that says that male and female US soldiers in Afghanistan are punished (even imprisonment) for either getting pregnant or causing pregnancy. The reason being that this removes a perfectly good soldier from her duties (akin to injuring a soldier)

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Surya » 08 Mar 2010 07:48

shiv

its was a big brouhaha in the American media towards end of Dec 2009

It stemmed from Maj. Gen. Anthony Cucolo promising to be strict and even court martial the men and women who got themselves in that sitaution and left the units in the lurch.

Unfortunately in the face of political opposition (mostly the liberal democrats) it has been a bit watered down - and no woman has been imprisoned or courtmartialed from what I read

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gaur » 12 Mar 2010 15:27


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby ASPuar » 12 Mar 2010 15:57

Surya wrote:shiv

its was a big brouhaha in the American media towards end of Dec 2009

It stemmed from Maj. Gen. Anthony Cucolo promising to be strict and even court martial the men and women who got themselves in that sitaution and left the units in the lurch.

Unfortunately in the face of political opposition (mostly the liberal democrats) it has been a bit watered down - and no woman has been imprisoned or courtmartialed from what I read


:shock:

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Surya » 12 Mar 2010 16:29

ASP

???

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby RayC » 12 Mar 2010 18:36

This is a comment on a different forum of a US serviceman and I thought one could share it with all.

Women in combat arms pose more issues than the simple "if they can do it let em", which sounds great...at first.

For this to work in a way that offers a positive net gain for an armed force the following is what is required in my opinion, based on my experience:

1. Same uniform and grooming standards.
2. Same billet.
3. Same standards of performance.
4. All females non-exempt from compulsory service.

What exists in the US currently is:

1. Different uniform and grooming standards.
2. Seperate billets, the majority of which were not designed for such "segregation".
3. Dual standards exist far beyond the obvious physical fitness requirements. A LOT of valuable training time is wasted on sensitivity training, EEO issues etc.
4. If females are going to be treated equally in one area, they should be treated equally in all areas. If a country is not socially prepared to draft women for combat, they and more importantly the military members of said country are not socially prepared to put women on the front line either.

Allowing double standards of any kind to exist in the military is detrimental to esprit de corps which in turn lowers combat effectiveness. Allowing double standards to exist of any kind does not benefit the military, in any way, shape, or form. You can't be equal, and different at the same time.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby ASPuar » 12 Mar 2010 19:43

Surya wrote:ASP

???


Sorry, just was surprised at the harshness of the policy. But, it makes some sense, I guess. It does end up incapacitating a soldier...

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shukla » 21 Mar 2010 07:26

Official DOD release on number of women in Armed forces.. 1012 women in Army today..

A study carried out by HQrs Integrated Defence Staff in 2006 on all aspects of employment of women officers in the armed forces, recommended exclusion of women officers from close combat roles.


It would be interesting to know who participated in the survey.. 99% men I guess.. Also, wonder if the a survey would form basis for a policy?

Anyone know details of that survey?

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=59630Women%20officers%20in%20armed%20forces

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Rahul M » 21 Mar 2010 09:57

point #1: it's MOD, not DOD, this is India, not US.
point #2: it's a study, not a survey or an opinion poll.
point #3: people have highlighted the myriad problems associated with allowing women in combat roles, even ignoring the fact that women qualify on the basis of very low physical requirements as compared to men.
point #4: women already fly transports and helos. in kargil war there were women helo pilots who were carrying out cas-evac in rough terrain under enemy fire. that is a combat role. the navy is allowing women on its frontline warships. is it necessary that women have to necessarily join infantry or drive tanks in order to be useful ? modern armed forces have a huge number of occupations not involving hands-on combat that are as critical in the larger scheme of things. it is here that women should be allowed, even with permanent commission depending on suitability.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shukla » 21 Mar 2010 10:22

Rahul M wrote:point #1: it's MOD, not DOD, this is India, not US.
point #2: it's a study, not a survey or an opinion poll.
point #3: people have highlighted the myriad problems associated with allowing women in combat roles, even ignoring the fact that women qualify on the basis of very low physical requirements as compared to men.
point #4: women already fly transports and helos. in kargil war there were women helo pilots who were carrying out cas-evac in rough terrain under enemy fire. that is a combat role. the navy is allowing women on its frontline warships. is it necessary that women have to necessarily join infantry or drive tanks in order to be useful ? modern armed forces have a huge number of occupations not involving hands-on combat that are as critical in the larger scheme of things. it is here that women should be allowed, even with permanent commission depending on suitability.


Points noted with thanks!

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Rahul M » 21 Mar 2010 11:03

it is here that women should be allowed, even with permanent commission depending on suitability.
just a clarification : they are already allowed in most of these roles. the granting of permanent commissions is IMO a matter of when, not if.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby RayC » 21 Mar 2010 12:51

The interesting part is if the women had to qualify to join as per the men's standards, then very few will qualify.

And even if they qualified, if they went through the same rigours of training, then one wonders.

Either way, the desired level of recruitment and commission would not be met, leaving the GOI redfaced and browbeaten by all and sundry!

Catch 22.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Samay » 21 Mar 2010 17:11


The BSF has raised a massive armed female contingent to guard the country’s borders, and plans to recruit another 35,000 women in the next four years.
:shock:

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2010 01:02

Image
Woman GC passes out of the OTA chennai.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Jagan » 22 Mar 2010 01:29

Dont know if this was posted before

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2010 ... facts.html

Women in the Armed Forces: misconceptions and facts
By Maj Gen Mrinal Suman

In the recent past, the nation was shocked to hear a retired senior Army officer recommending constitution of all women battalions in the Indian Army. There cannot be a more preposterous and perilous proposition. It is equally common to hear the argument that if the Naxalites and LTTE can have women fighters, why the Indian armed forces should be reluctant to do so. Often people quote the number of American women fighting war in Iraq and Afghanistan to question India’s stance against allowing women in combat. This article endeavours to remove some common misconceptions and put all issues in their proper perspective.


Common misconceptions and facts

Women must get equal opportunities in the services!

The concept of equality of sexes is unquestionable. Its application should, however, never affect the fighting potential of the armed forces. Two points need to be highlighted here. First, the armed forces are constituted for national defence and there can be no compromise on that issue. Secondly, the armed forces are not a ‘Rozgar Yojana’ to provide employment to all segments of the society in equal proportion. As it is a question of nation’s defence, the best man or woman should be selected for every job. In other words, women should be inducted in the services only if they add value or at least not affect it adversely. No right thinking individual can advocate women’s induction at the cost of the fighting potential. That would be disastrous for the country.

Interestingly, demand for equal opportunities is selective in nature. Women want to join only as officers and not as soldiers. Additionally, the concept of equality is given a go-by soon after commissioning. Applications for peace postings and other special dispensations proliferate. They join the military on the plank of equality of sexes but this plank vanishes the day they join the training academy. Thereafter, they again become the weaker sex needing special privileges.

Women can perform all physical tasks as well as men!

Standards of physical fitness of women can never be the same as those of men. It is a biological reality and is true for all fields including sports. In the case of women officers, Indian Army has lowered the standards to appallingly low levels. Even then many women fail to qualify during their pre-commission training. Whereas male cadets are required to run 5 km in 28 minutes, women are given 40 minutes. Similarly, males are required to jump across a 9 feet wide ditch with full equipment and personal weapon; women have to negotiate only a 5 feet wide ditch. Worse, most women fail in the test.

All male officers and soldiers are subjected to annual Battle Physical Efficiency Tests till they attain the age of 45 years. No such tests have been prescribed for women officers to avoid embarrassment to them in front of the troops. Concerns have also been expressed about the susceptibility of Indian women to frequent back problems, pelvic injuries and stress fractures.

Physical fitness is of lesser importance in modern fighting!

Need for physical effort is dictated by two factors - level of technological development and nature of military’s involvement. Requirement for physical prowess undoubtedly reduces as the armies advance technologically. In other words, quantum of physical effort needed is inversely proportional to technological progression. Thus, as an army evolves technologically, more high-tech jobs get generated where technically qualified women can be gainfully employed. In a high-tech army like the US, a woman sitting in the US mainland can effectively guide drone attacks in Afghanistan. India on the other hand is still a second generation technology force which is trying desperately to graduate to the third generation. Indian defence forces are man-power intensive needing physical ground effort. India has very few high-tech jobs.


The US has deployed a large number of women soldiers for fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan!
Although a large number of women have been deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, their employment has been confined to support functions. Although till the end of 2009, the US and allies had suffered a total of 4689 casualties, there has not been a single woman war casualty. Similarly, despite the fact that the US and allies have suffered 1555 casualties, not a single woman has lost her life in the Afghanistan war so far. Many people tend to confuse casualties due to hostile action with combat casualties. The US has lost 19 female servicemen in Iraq to hostile activities like car bombs, IED blasts and helicopter crashes since the beginning of 2007, but there has been no combat casualty. It is simply because of the fact no women are deployed in combat duties. As a matter of fact, they are forbidden to be placed in direct ground combat with enemy. They generally perform medical, intelligence, logistic and traffic control duties. Women are thus kept sheltered in safe appointments, away from the risk of capture by the adversary.

Even in Israel which has conscription for women (as well as men), women are not allotted active battle field duties. They serve in technical, administrative and training posts to release men for active duty.

If BSF can have an all women battalion to guard border, why not the Indian Army!

The Border Security Force (BSF) has certainly raised an all women battalion and deployed it on the international border. However, the following important facts need to be highlighted:-

■The battalion is led by male officers and subordinate functionaries.
■The battalion has not been positioned on the Line of Control where firing and infiltration attempts are frequent. Instead, it has been deployed near Ferozepur on the International Border (IB) which is totally peaceful and where Indian and Pak troops routinely exchange sweets on festivals.
■Even on IB no independent sector has been entrusted to the women battalion. It has been superimposed on an existing male battalion. Importantly, women perform no night guard duties - these are performed by males.
Earlier, village women were not allowed to go across the border fence to cultivate their fields as no women sentries were available to frisk them. It was a sore point with the border folks. The sole purpose of raising the women battalion is to redress this long standing grievance. Their task is akin to what CISF women have been carrying out at the airports for long - frisking of women. Therefore, it will be incorrect to call the BSF battalion a fighting force.

Women officers help overcome the shortage of officers in the forces!

It is an erroneous impression that there is a shortage of male volunteers for the services. As per the report of the Union Public Service Commission for 2006-07, there were a total of 5,49,365 candidates for 1724 vacancies for all civil services examinations with an Applicants to Post Ratio (APR) of 319. On the other hand, 3,41,818 candidates applied for 793 vacancies in the National Defence Academy (NDA), maintaining APR at a healthy 431. It implies that for every seat in NDA there were 431 applicants. Therefore, it is a fallacy that male volunteers are insufficient. It is just that the services seek very exacting standards for males while women are accepted with abysmally low standards.

Short service commission for women has proved highly productive!

As a matter of fact, short service commission (normally extended to 10 years) has proved to be a totally wasteful and counter-productive exercise. Women normally get commissioned at the age of 23 to 25 years. Within two to three years of their commission, they get married, mostly to colleague male officers. Soon thereafter they start applying for peace postings on compassionate grounds to be with their husbands. Every pregnancy means three years’ exemption from physical activities - one year pre-natal and two years post-delivery. With the standard two-child norm, a women officer remains physically inactive for close to six years. It implies that after the first post-commission tenure, a woman officer is rarely in a position to participate in field exercises and has to be exempted all out-door work. Thus the services gain little.

In an informal interaction, a senior Junior Commissioned Officer (JCO) questioned the rationale of granting SSC to women. “In the case of men, 25 to 35 years age span is most productive and grant of SSC is understandable. On the other hand, women have to raise their families during that period. By granting SSC to women, we have achieved nothing except increase the load on maternity wards of military hospitals,” he opined.

If women can fight as soldiers in LTTE and Naxalite outfits, why not in the services!

Comparing irregular outfits with constitutionally created regular forces shows speciousness of the logic. In any case, even LTTE recruited women only after it fell short of male volunteers. Moreover, women held no high appointments and were generally used as pawns in indoctrinated suicide squads. If one was to carry the comparison forward, LTTE had recruited boys of 15 years to take up arms and act as human bombs. A lawfully structured formal organisation cannot be expected to follow suit.

Indian women officers have proved themselves and established their credibility as leaders!

Not withstanding the public posturing of the services top brass, the experience so far has been highly discouraging. Superior male officers admire their enthusiasm despite the environmental difficulties, but are faced with the twin problems of their safety and useful employment. Additionally, as many duties (like night duty officer) cannot be assigned to women, male officers have to be given additional work load, which they resent. There are also concerns, based on Israeli studies, that soldiers first instinct may be to defend the women in their ranks rather than to fight the enemy.

Male officers also question the logic of having women only as officer. Indian officers pride themselves in the fact that they lead from the front and hence have to be better than their soldiers both physically and professionally. But, by having women only in the officer cadre an impression gets conveyed to the environment that officers’ duties are softer and can be carried out by women as well, thereby lowering our standing.

As per an informal survey carried out, 81 percent of the troops were convinced that women officers could never lead them in war efficiently. The balance 19 percent were unsure of their response. Acceptability of women as leaders was thus very poor. Another segment of respondents viewed the whole issue as a political gimmick which did not warrant serious attention. “How can the Government be naïve enough to think that a leader who cannot run, train and exercise with troops and lacks required physical fitness can lead them in war?” they query.

Women in Western forces are well accepted and adjusted!

It is a fallacy. Acceptance of women in the military has not been smooth in any country. Despite efforts made to sensitise the environment, they continue to be confronted with social, behavioural and psychological problems at all levels. To date most countries do not allow women tank crews because of the cramped conditions and lack of privacy. There are also concerns about cramped living conditions on board submarines and dangers posed by fumes inside the submarine to a foetus if a woman becomes pregnant.

Sexual harassment and assaults of women soldiers is known to be blatant and quite prevalent in the US forces. A sexual harassment hotline set up at Aberdeen received 6,825 calls from women from all branches of the military in just two months. Hundreds of women are said to have complained of sexual assault in the forces since the beginning of Iraq war in 2003. Level of moral degradation can be gauged from the fact that ‘command rape’ has come to be accepted as a common phenomenon in the military - a superior official, under the might of his command authority, can force a subordinate woman soldier to accede to his sexual demands.

A joint survey carried out in 2006 in the UK by the Ministry of Defence and the Equal Opportunities Commission found that 67% of the respondents had experienced sexualised behaviour directed at them personally in the previous 12 months. Worse, over half of those who made a formal complaint stated that there had been negative consequences as a result of which 64 per cent were considering leaving the services.

On the other hand, Indian Armed Forces can be rightfully proud of their record which is far better than that of any advanced nation in the world. Women are treated in a manner befitting their dignity and their safety is ensured.

India needs to exercise caution

It is universally accepted that induction of women in the services should be dictated by the level of technology, prevailing security environment and the nature of likely deployment. Availability of adequate number of male volunteers is another major consideration.

India should follow a graduated approach. Women’s expertise, talent and competence should be profitably utilised in areas which are totally non-combat in nature. For the present, women must continue to play their established role in the medical, dental and nursing services, both as short service and permanent commission officers. However, they should not be granted short service commission in any other branch. The Government has rightly approved grant of permanent commission to women in legal and education departments of the three services, accounts branch of the Air Force and constructors of the Navy. Grant of permanent commission should also be considered for women in Survey of India, Military Engineering Service Militarised Cadre and Director General Quality Assurance.

The current policy of non-induction of women in combat arms should continue. Additionally, their entry into Engineers, Signals, Supply Corps, Ordnance and EME (Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) should be deferred till infusion of technology generates adequate number of high-tech jobs.

Finally, it should never be forgotten that the raison d’être for the constitution of the armed forces is to ensure security of the country. Decisions which have a far reaching effect on the defence potential of the armed forces must be taken with due diligence. Instead of replicating a model, India must chart its own policy. It has an experience of 18 years. Honest feedback must be sought to appreciate the true ground situation and initiate corrective measures. Most importantly, the military brass must show moral courage to admit that the present mess demands a holistic review of the policy, protestations of self-styled champions of gender-parity not withstanding. Decisions taken as a matter of political and populist expediency can prove disastrous for the nation in the long run. Defence matters cannot be treated as publicity gimmick to flaunt sexual equality.

Maj Gen Mrinal Suman is India’s foremost expert in defence procurement procedures and offsets. He heads Defence Technical Assessment and Advisory Services Group of CII.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shukla » 24 Mar 2010 14:37

Women’s battle

good read.. entailing struggle by women for the right to permanent commission in the armed forces...

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby pmund » 24 Mar 2010 17:33

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2010 ... facts.html

Jagan ji, excellent article. Last word on the debate, i guess. Of course, we can go on splitting hairs.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shukla » 01 Apr 2010 13:18

Services examining HC verdict on permanent commission to women: Indian Army

"The legal, financial and other implications of the court's judgement are being examined. All the three services are doing so and whenever they reach a conclusion, the legal branch will tell us what action is to be taken and the government will also be party to it," Air Chief Marshal PV Naik said in New Delhi.

The IAF chief, who took over as the chairman, Chief of Staffs Committee today, was asked if the government would go to the Supreme Court against the high court verdict.

Naik added that the IAF had 'moved ahead' with women in the past and would continue to do so in future also.

The Delhi high court on March 12 had ordered the Centre, the Air Force and the Army to grant permanent commission to woman officers who were recruited for short term services.

There are around 2000 women officers serving in the three forces as SSC officers in non-combat arms.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby alok p » 02 Apr 2010 14:08

Interesting... but no one seems to be discussing the USSR experience in WW2 that much, when women formed a sizeable chunk of the Red Army's combat forces and performed admirably. Granted, it was a more desperate time for the USSR but just wanted to get a discussion started with this counter view as well. How did the USSR manage with women in combat roles and what happened after the war?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Klaus » 02 Apr 2010 14:35

It would be prudent to have women as snipers, navigators, operators of manual guns on aircraft (such as AN-32), divers (operating from surface ships), any role which requires negligible people contact and solo roles rather than team play. Also, the above roles will not bring them in physical proximity with the enemy during a combat situation (most of the time).

Given that women generally do not man tanks, what could be the possible pros/cons of having them operate all-female light infantry vehicle units as teams of 4-6?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Carl_T » 03 Apr 2010 20:53

I have read that women used in COIN patrols are able to better connect with the civilian population. (don't know how true that is) I don't think its a good idea to send women into the frontlines when fighting other armies but in COIN when you're maintaining control of a civilian area along with searching for militants, maybe it could work.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2010 21:52

Carl_T wrote:I have read that women used in COIN patrols are able to better connect with the civilian population. (don't know how true that is)


The Americans are trying this in Afghanistan. Despite reports of abuse Indian men tend to behave much better with native populations. I believe that is because there is a similarity between the social background of the Indian soldier and a insurgency affected rural area. The average American soldier comes from a different world - a world in which he is taught to see every alien as an enemy, or be killed. This has a bearing on training techniques as well.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Carl_T » 05 Apr 2010 00:57

shiv wrote:
Carl_T wrote:I have read that women used in COIN patrols are able to better connect with the civilian population. (don't know how true that is)


The Americans are trying this in Afghanistan. Despite reports of abuse Indian men tend to behave much better with native populations. I believe that is because there is a similarity between the social background of the Indian soldier and a insurgency affected rural area. The average American soldier comes from a different world - a world in which he is taught to see every alien as an enemy, or be killed. This has a bearing on training techniques as well.

Yes, I can see how that would be helpful in fighting insurgency in rural areas like in the northeast.

OT but, have soldiers from places like Manipur, Mizoram, and Nagaland had more success in controlling insurgencies in those areas?

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shukla » 27 May 2010 20:04

IAF women officers scale new heights, summit Mt. Kamet
Women officers of the Indian Air Force (IAF) are scaling heights...literally, in preparation to summit Mt.Everest next year.

Young Flight Lieutenant Nivedita Choudhary and Squadron Leader Nirupama, who are members of the all-women IAF officers' Everest expedition, have just returned after scaling the 7,557-metre Mt. Kamet and 7,354-metre Mt.Abi Gamin respectively in Garhwal Himalayas in Uttarakhand, close to the border with China.

Choudhary and Nirupama have become the first women officers of the country's armed forces to achieve the feat. Kamet is the third highest peak in India after Mt.Kanchanjunga and Mt.Nanda Devi.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shukla » 16 Jun 2010 17:36


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Re: Women in Combat

Postby VinodTK » 23 Nov 2010 03:40

6,749 Indian women officers in armed forces

"2,591 women officers have been inducted into the armed forces in the last three years and a total of 6,749 of them are working in the Services," Defence Minister A K Antony said in written reply to a Lok Sabha query.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Viv S » 23 Nov 2010 05:24

shiv wrote:
Carl_T wrote:I have read that women used in COIN patrols are able to better connect with the civilian population. (don't know how true that is)


The Americans are trying this in Afghanistan. Despite reports of abuse Indian men tend to behave much better with native populations. I believe that is because there is a similarity between the social background of the Indian soldier and a insurgency affected rural area. The average American soldier comes from a different world - a world in which he is taught to see every alien as an enemy, or be killed. This has a bearing on training techniques as well.


Isn't that bit of an exaggeration? One may argue that they come from a more liberal culture with a lower tolerance for death - of a serviceman or as collateral damage. As opposed to an Indian public that tends to see soldiers as expendable and collateral damage as inevitable, and that's the ones that actually bother to read about something the army is doing.


With regard to women, my understand is frisking of women is more acceptable within the Afghan society if performed by a female. And it needs to be performed very frequently what with steady growth of checkpoints and regular sweeps.

shiv
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Re: Women in Combat

Postby shiv » 23 Nov 2010 05:47

Viv S wrote:
Isn't that bit of an exaggeration? One may argue that they come from a more liberal culture with a lower tolerance for death - of a serviceman or as collateral damage. As opposed to an Indian public that tends to see soldiers as expendable and collateral damage as inevitable, and that's the ones that actually bother to read about something the army is doing.


No. The US army has been taught to actively see the other as an object of disdain. This type of training has made the US soldier a better killing machine and invariably kills more of the enemy than the other does. The alternative to that is to be humane among an alien population and risk being killed. The US opts for the former. The Indian army - having worked on COIN for decades takes the latter route. But the Indian army is more effective in the end in quelling insurgency for that reason. The US army has not quelled any insurgency that I know of. But they have always claimed "We killed more gooks (Vietnam) and "We killed more n1ggers (Somalia)

Off topic for this thread.

Surya
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Re: Women in Combat

Postby Surya » 23 Nov 2010 07:07

Carl_T wrote:
I have read that women used in COIN patrols are able to better connect with the civilian population. (don't know how true that is)


Same reasoning is also indicated in increasing the number of women in CRPF, BSF, ITBP etc.

Reality is in the cultures we operate there is only so far a man even a kind compassionate one can go to get trusted.

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Re: Women in Combat

Postby ParGha » 23 Nov 2010 19:00

Indian Army is better able to handle modern insurgencies and LICs because of its unmatchable staying power, which in turn is a product of its culture and demographics. The US is able to handle modern short-duration, high-intensity operations much better because of its unmatched fire-power, which is a product of its culture and economy.

All psychological indoctrination flow from these hard realities. To dwell on the indoctrination itself is useless, as it is quite easy to take off all restraints on the Indian soldier (a la The Grave of a Hundred Heads), or put them on an American soldier (as Gen Petraeus and COINistas did for a while).

The COIN mission is a necessary but highly undesirable and distractive mission for the IA, which it honestly wants to offload to MHA forces as soon as possible. This is not impossible - the Russians, for example, have transfered most of the responsibility for the Caucasian security to FSB and MoI forces, though the 58th Army is always close by. By some accounts they have gotten much better at it than the RuA, but then again the RuA never claimed to be gentle about these things and the FSB is descended from a long line of agencies expert at that kind of underhanded work. :mrgreen:


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